To go tubeless or stay tubed.

[Davef]

I suppose the issue is that [Brucey's] posts might put people off trying tubeless and the vast majority of people once they have tried, prefer them. Not everyone, but the vast majority.

Actually, the person who's convinced me that tubeless isn't for me is... Flatus! Because his experience matches that of others I know who've tried tubeless: that you have to use it regularly (at least once a fortnight was the minimum frequency Flatus gave) to keep the sealant liquid and circulating. At the moment, due to lockdown, weather and, I'm afraid, laziness, that is barely happening. Once the weather gets warmer, hopefully the pandemic situation eases, and given the right physical and mental tuits, I'll be reappraising this decision, when the decisive factors will probably technical ones (compressor, sealant, etc).

I had not heard that one before. My “spare” bike is tubeless now too and I only ride that once every few weeks. Maybe it depends on the brand of gizz.

Edit: I would also add I have never used a compressor. I have always just used a track pump (joe blow) and pumped quite frantically. I do have an air bottle thing I used to use on my disk wheel on my TT bike but I have never needed to use it for tubeless but it would be a cheaper option than a compressor. The reason I use it on the disk wheel is that you need to hold the inflator on with one hand leaving only one hand to pump and I had a shoulder injury for a year or so. Then last summer I was shown the technique of using a wood working clamp and so now I have two hands free for the pump. I might just be fortunate in my rim/tyre selection.

Edit: I should add my disk wheel is tubed and unfortunately not tubeless compatible and it is too damned expensive to replace.

[Brucey]

Have you uncovered some stats for your tubeless is more dangerous theory?.... I would want proper statistical evidence before I would proclaim either way.

hang on which theory is that?   I have pointed out that there have been a variety of known issues with tubeless and more 'unexplained incidents' than I'd like to see.  'Unexplained incidents' are exactly that.  Unexplained.

 Until someone digs in and does some tests which represent the true range of possible conditions of use, I think such incidents will remain unexplained. Some at least will be down to errors in installation.  But when (for example)  folk who ought to know how to ride a bike  and pump a tyre up have a problem with the manufacturer's test bike (for example) and there is no adequate explanation, this does concern me. Probably there is an explanation, but we just don't know what it is yet, and until we do some folk will have problems.

It is a self-selecting set of responses of course but IIRC there are 130-odd responses to the Jan Heine blog posting and there are several reports of similar unexplained problems. Or problems that were mysteriously fixed by using slightly thinner rim tape, (which hardly inspires confidence in the way the tyre is retained, if this makes a difference).

I do have a theory which relates to the retention of tyres (esp on hook beaded rims) varying with the exact location of the seal, because that affects how the bead is pushed into the rim hook.   But to assume that this automatically means 'I think tubeless is more dangerous' is putting words into my mouth.  As I have mentioned upthread tubeless tyres are normally more likely to stay on the rim in the event of sudden deflation, and this (in that event) is better. 

Better understanding of what might cause the other thing to happen would be of use to everyone and sensible discussion is a route towards it.  It doesn't always need to be complicated, comparatively simple observations are often enough to improve your safety; for example I would certainly  have rejected the badly fitting tyre that my chum prevailed with, because being slack enough not to hold its seat properly would also decrease the chances of the tyre staying on the rim in service. 

cheers

[Hot Flatus]

I suppose the issue is that [Brucey's] posts might put people off trying tubeless and the vast majority of people once they have tried, prefer them. Not everyone, but the vast majority.

Actually, the person who's convinced me that tubeless isn't for me is... Flatus! Because his experience matches that of others I know who've tried tubeless: that you have to use it regularly (at least once a fortnight was the minimum frequency Flatus gave) to keep the sealant liquid and circulating. At the moment, due to lockdown, weather and, I'm afraid, laziness, that is barely happening. Once the weather gets warmer, hopefully the pandemic situation eases, and given the right physical and mental tuits, I'll be reappraising this decision, when the decisive factors will probably technical ones (compressor, sealant, etc).

I had not heard that one before. My “spare” bike is tubeless now too and I only ride that once every few weeks. Maybe it depends on the brand of gizz.

I wasn't thinking so much in terms of your jizz drying up, but tyre deflation. If you stick the bike in a shed for a month and forget about it, theres a chance you may return to find jizz dribbling out.  Brands do vary I've found. Stans is a sorts of baseline OK, Orangeseal seems to seal larger holes and takes a bit longer to dry out. I got some motorbike stuff from Planet X (Oke) and its been surprisingly good. The worst is Finish Line. You might as well put water in your tyres.

Edit: I would also add I have never used a compressor. I have always just used a track pump (joe blow) and pumped quite frantically.

I can generally get them on with a track pump, but I bought an Airshot after struggling on one occasion, and I tend to use it now because it makes life simple.

[Cudzoziemiec]

You are welcome       Glad you were able to filter out the noise on this thread 

The person who convinced me to give them a go was Bikey Mikey in 2014 IIRC,  you know him? He won the audax points championship 6 years in a row, including one year with a record breaking 33,000 of audax miles. He wasn't out to convince me, just stated his experiences.  Still, what would he know, eh.

I do know Bikey Mikey (of course!). Is he still using the 1x? (best find another thread for that, we don't want to mix up multiple Controversial New Technologies in one thread!)

[Hot Flatus]

Ha ha! I havent seen him for ages.

1x....now that is one thing I have no need for outside of offroad.

[quixoticgeek]

I keep trying to decide on Tubeless or not, or rather specifically if I should choose tubeless for a certain ride from the sea side to another seaside in July. Part of me is very much liking the idea of not having to keep swapping and/or repairing tubes. Part of me is "oh fuck, how messy is this going to be if I do need to tube the tyre"

My current thought is to use the tubeless version of the GP5k, but with tubes. As the TL version has stronger side walls.

Has anyone used GP5K TL with H+Son Archetype rims?

J

[hatler]

I'm going to stick with what I've got (tubed).

I have a stack of spare rims, and enough tyres in stock to last me out.

I can't be bothered with the expense of replacing a whole bunch of kit, nor the faff involved in learning new tricks. Plus, I'm crap at motivating myself to schedule regular tasks. Call me a pervert but I'd far rather be forced into fixing a puncture in the cold and wet by the side of the road than schedule a goo replacement session.

My one meeting with tubeless was a friend's son's MTB. I couldn't get the tyre off the rim. It appeared to have been welded on. This is the only time I have ever been defeated in this task.

At peak-commuting mileage (sadly almost certainly a thing of the past now) I would average four punctures a year. I'm more than happy taking those on the chin.

[Andy W]

How often do tubeless tyres need their pressure checking?

[Davef]

I keep trying to decide on Tubeless or not, or rather specifically if I should choose tubeless for a certain ride from the sea side to another seaside in July. Part of me is very much liking the idea of not having to keep swapping and/or repairing tubes. Part of me is "oh fuck, how messy is this going to be if I do need to tube the tyre"

My current thought is to use the tubeless version of the GP5k, but with tubes. As the TL version has stronger side walls.

Has anyone used GP5K TL with H+Son Archetype rims?

J

I would try it for a couple thousand k in training to see if they work for you and your rims. I have had one messy tube insertion and one that was not messy at all. The messy one was the first ride after an overgenerous fluid top up. I have added a to my spares kit a j cloth (well more accurately half a j cloth because every gram counts!). The mess was on my hands and the rims. I was also next time take more care emptying it out. For your longer ride I would recommend taking a spare tyre which you might do anyway if tubed.

[Hot Flatus]

How often do tubeless tyres need their pressure checking?

When you first install them, generally, you need to give them a pump everyday for the first few days. The one thing I should say is it is best to go out and ride them pretty soon after installing them. Then air retention improves rapidly. In general , if being used regularly I'll top it with air up every few days. If not then every two to three weeks.

Part of me is "oh fuck, how messy is this going to be if I do need to tube the tyre"

If you need to put a tube in, it will be because a puncture wont seal. This might be because you've neglected to top the sealant up, or the hole is too big. If all the air has come out of your tyre then it is likely that most of the sealant will have too, because you will have rolled the tyre round so that the puncture is at the bottom where the sealant resides. Once you pop the bead off the rim, you can let any residual sealant drip out. The air pressure has gone...it isn't going to explode all over you despite what our non-tubeless tyre using friend will try and have you believe.

As with anything in life, if there are many longtime users decribing their experiences as positive, and one non-user claiming to have encountered difficulties at every turn, then that one user is probably just describing their incompetence.

Here is an typical example:

I helped someone fit a tubeless tyre to a tubeless rim, and basically it didn't ****in' work.  The tyre was too loose on the rim, so wouldn't seat unless a booster bottle was used, and then wouldn't stay seated for long enough to get the valve core in. 

Those of us that know what we are doing would see the problem with this straight away. 

[Frank9755]

In September I did a hard, hilly 400km DIY.  At 11pm I still had 80km to go.  I was going up a steep hill, in the dark as it was starting to get cold.  I felt a puncture in my rear wheel.  I really did not want to stop.  Two seconds later, it resealed. 

I've used tubeless since 2015.  I've needed to stop and put a tube in just twice in 30-40,000 km.  Both would have been avoidable with a bit of thought and care.

I had to use a tube for the third time yesterday!

Again it was my fault and could / should have been avoided.  I'd not checked the sealant in my tyre - which I should have done as I hadn't refilled since I set these wheels up at the start of September - and the sealant had dried up. 

[Frank9755]

I keep trying to decide on Tubeless or not, or rather specifically if I should choose tubeless for a certain ride from the sea side to another seaside in July. Part of me is very much liking the idea of not having to keep swapping and/or repairing tubes. Part of me is "oh fuck, how messy is this going to be if I do need to tube the tyre"

My current thought is to use the tubeless version of the GP5k, but with tubes. As the TL version has stronger side walls.

Has anyone used GP5K TL with H+Son Archetype rims?

J

Don't do it!  Tubeless tyres are harder to get on and off than non-tubeless.  Conti are harder to get off than most ther brands. 

But don't take my word for it.  Get one and try it yourself.  You can always sell it on as 'new, fitted to a rim but not ridden' and it will only cost you a small margin for the learning.

[Frank9755]

You are welcome       Glad you were able to filter out the noise on this thread 

The person who convinced me to give them a go was Bikey Mikey in 2014 IIRC,  you know him? He won the audax points championship 6 years in a row, including one year with a record breaking 33,000 of audax miles. He wasn't out to convince me, just stated his experiences.  Still, what would he know, eh.

I was convinced to try Tubeless by Teethgrinder, when he was gearing up for his 'Year'.  He described them and his experience with them, and it sounded like a good idea.  I think he did a few miles on them too!

[jiberjaber]

I keep trying to decide on Tubeless or not, or rather specifically if I should choose tubeless for a certain ride from the sea side to another seaside in July. Part of me is very much liking the idea of not having to keep swapping and/or repairing tubes. Part of me is "oh fuck, how messy is this going to be if I do need to tube the tyre"

My current thought is to use the tubeless version of the GP5k, but with tubes. As the TL version has stronger side walls.

Has anyone used GP5K TL with H+Son Archetype rims?

J

Don't do it!  Tubeless tyres are harder to get on and off than non-tubeless.  Conti are harder to get off than most ther brands. 

But don't take my word for it.  Get one and try it yourself.  You can always sell it on as 'new, fitted to a rim but not ridden' and it will only cost you a small margin for the learning.

Whilst I have the GP5k I've not had them on my tubeless hson arch+ wheels - I have however had lots of Schwalbe on the hson+, G-one and pro-one. The 5k take a bit to fit but seal better

[Cudzoziemiec]

I keep trying to decide on Tubeless or not, or rather specifically if I should choose tubeless for a certain ride from the sea side to another seaside in July. Part of me is very much liking the idea of not having to keep swapping and/or repairing tubes. Part of me is "oh fuck, how messy is this going to be if I do need to tube the tyre"

My current thought is to use the tubeless version of the GP5k, but with tubes. As the TL version has stronger side walls.

Has anyone used GP5K TL with H+Son Archetype rims?

J

Archetypes are not tubeless compatible. Unless I'm misremembering what I was told by a wheelbuilder.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Archetypes have been converted to tubeless but they don’t retain the tyre beads like a tubeless rim should.

[citoyen]

Part of me is "oh fuck, how messy is this going to be if I do need to tube the tyre"

Very messy. BTDTGTTS. (Hit a stone that caused a gash in the sidewall that wouldn’t seal. Even after tipping out as much of the residual sealant as possible, the inside of the tyre was very sticky. You will get sealant on your hands - but that’s what latex gloves are for - and probably on the wheel rim too.)

Also bear in mind that if you have trouble getting normal clinchers off the rim, tubeless are significantly harder. (Or should be, if they’re a good fit.)

Otoh, the trade off is that you should be carrying out roadside repairs a lot less often. I had two punctures within the first 12km of my ride today, small pinprick punctures of exactly the kind that tubeless sealant is designed to deal with.

[citoyen]

When you first install them, generally, you need to give them a pump everyday for the first few days. The one thing I should say is it is best to go out and ride them pretty soon after installing them.

I concur with this. I usually try to get out and do a ride of decent length as soon as I can after fitting. It seems to make a difference. 

[De Sisti]

Shamelessly stolen from Cycling UK:

[Lightning Phil]

Shamelessly stolen from Cycling UK:

I suppose the last thing you’d want is a puncture under enemy fire. Plus I see they had an early frame bag...

[hatler]

And a MM deterrent.

[Lightning Phil]

Plus of course for the Calvary

[mzjo]

Plus of course for the Calvary

Too COOOOOOL  A delta recumbent trike on fixed with tubeless tyres (forgot the fwd bit)!!

[morbihan]

Shamelessly stolen from Cycling UK:

excellent way to make sure you spring into action.

[Cudzoziemiec]

That sprung tyre design goes back to the 1890s. Presumably it was revived during WW2 due to lack of rubber for pneumatics.