Author Topic: Is there a thread about dual pivot rim brakes? Which Dual Pivot brakes are good?  (Read 3867 times)

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
To me they look like what these days is called "long" i.e up to 57mm.  Measure the drop on what you have from the centre of the brake mounting bolt to the middle of the brake track i.e the middle of the nut on your existing brake pad.  Similar Promax brakes on ebay can be found as modern "standard" or "long".

Yep they are standard up to 57.

It's confusing but there are 3 types of calliper's and the names are used pretty loosely now.  Normally - Short 39-49mm drop, Standard 47-57mm drop, Long up to about 75mm.  I think you'll find the Promax ones are standard and the Ultegra ones short.  I had some Promax callipers once - briefly, they were discarded as being inadequate.

Was never sure about them, especially with the twist.  Taking them apart today I have found the brake wire frayed, so replacing the wire and might as well redo or replace the bartape...and the brake lever as it was rattly...for a spare.  At least the cable didn't snap while riding.


Called merlin and the shimano are short drop 49 so should fit ;)

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Looks to me from your photo that the brake pads are around the middle of the range of adjustment, so about 52mm. That puts it outside the range of short-drop callipers. Ultegra callipers are great, but could be a fairly expensive mistake even at a discounted price! If you can find some Shimano R650 callipers I reckon they'd be a straight swap for your Promax ones. R450 will do, but you'd need to replace the pads with cartridge ones to get decent performance.

I think Tim is right.  You also need brakes compatible with the levers.  As far as I can remember all the Tektro levers are compatible with Shimano SLR not the NSSLR which all  current Shimano short reach brakes are.   So R450's or Tektro/Miche with decent pads added will be better than the Promax ones.

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Have found a miche dual in the spares pile.  Dismantled the brake and given it a clean, along with another set of r200 tektro levers.

Both promax calipers have worn through the cables at the caliper end so need replacing.  Oh well.

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
So picked up a pair of BR-R561 dual pivot and they are too short.

FFS.

So my attempt to get that bike working has failed.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
of the non-group ones, br-r451 have longer 57mm reach.

561 are standard reach, same as majority of road bike brake calipers.

Given the sensitivity of brakes to mechanical advantage, I wonder whether there's an element almost of chance, e.g. in the up-down adjustment needed for the pads on a particular frame? The Shimano brakes on my Audax bike are completely brilliant, every bit as good as the V brakes on another bike. Other dual pivots that I have are very acceptable, but not the same - even the Ultegra ones on my road bike.

BFC

  • ACME Wheelwright and Bike Fettler
There is often a lot of braking effort lost in the compression of bends in the outer cables, along with the associated friction. The difference in brake feel between front and rear is easiest to notice. Newer long travel levers and matching calipers compress the cable outers less than older short travel set ups.
For drop bar bikes with caliper brakes the UK set up with right hand brake for front tends to result in tighter cable bends, especially for shorter persons, or those that run the bars low. Use of a V brake noodle for the tight bend improves brake effectiveness, does require some modification of the noodle (or using the cable end of another, the ends do pull off if you try hard enough).

So my attempt to get that bike working has failed been delayed.

FTFY

I suggest measurement from the mounting pivot bolt, to the middle of the brake track on the rim.

Tektro R359 are adequate if measure is less than 57mm.  I run them quite happily on my commuter.
Tektro R369 for 55 - 73mm, but then you are getting into territory where flexibility of the caliper arms will be significant.

Otherwise mediocre brakes can be improved by better pads (as mentioned upthread) but also by so-called "compression-less" cable outers.


Given the sensitivity of brakes to mechanical advantage, I wonder whether there's an element almost of chance, e.g. in the up-down adjustment needed for the pads on a particular frame? The Shimano brakes on my Audax bike are completely brilliant, every bit as good as the V brakes on another bike. Other dual pivots that I have are very acceptable, but not the same - even the Ultegra ones on my road bike.

This is certainly true.  The MA will decrease as you move the pads down the slots. If you wanted to you could work it all out by measuring from the pivots to the pads and from the pivots to the cable anchors (this will also show you why old school centre pulls can be good).  Deeper drop brakes have longer arms to compensate so if you're in the position where you can have short brakes at the bottom of the adjustment or standard brakes at the top then the latter will be more powerful (but use more cable pull).  I have a bike which takes caliper brakes, mg's and 35mm tyres. it's deep enough to take long dp's or cp's with the pads at the top of the adjustment.  The brakes are good but will probably need more cable adjustment as the pads wear.

The other factors that have as much, and potentially more, impact are cabling, pads and arm flex.  I once bought a bike with no name (I think I know the brand from googling the part nos. on the calipers) 57mm drop brakes.  They were rubbish.  I changed the pads - still rubbish.  I changed and optimised the cabling, lined outers, stainless polished inners, silicone grease, ground ends, good bends, etc.  Still rubbish.  If you applied a gorilla like grip to the brakes you could see the calipers flex - marginal but noticeable.  I changed the calipers to some Tektro ones and had some perfectly effective brakes.  It seems to me that caliper flex will use much of the cable force into overcoming the internal friction in deforming the caliper and not into pressure at the rim.

IME all the big 3 and Tektro brakes are fine.  Some brands I've never used and there is one brand I would never buy.  Calipers that have decent pivot bearings especially ball bearings are better.  A lot is down to how they're installed, the pads used and where in the adjustment slot they are.

Having said all that, Shimano's NSSLR levers with other calipers (and vice versa) may change everything (for the worse).  My only experience of this is using NSSLR levers with 73mm calipers with the pads at the top of the slots which as per the above seems like a good combination.

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
There is no braking problem with the promax calipers, just that the calipers seem to fray the brake cables, hence changing the calipers.

The calipers are Promax RC470.