Author Topic: Cities fit for cycling  (Read 19332 times)

AndyK

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #75 on: 09 February, 2012, 08:10:54 pm »
Cycle safety on the Daily Politics (from approx. 52.30)

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01c1979/Daily_Politics_09_02_2012/

Nigel Farage is predictably tosserish.

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #76 on: 09 February, 2012, 10:00:12 pm »
I would say your MP's experiences of who ignores pedestrian crossings are purely anecdotal.

On the contrary; as worded it is difficult to find fault with that particular comment.  Though it is perhaps not very helpful to the argument.

Some cyclists (including some here) do indeed consider that red lights don't apply to them.  I have often seen cyclists barging through pedestrian crossings (in Reading).  On one occasion, when I remonstrated with a cyclist who very nearly knocked me over on a crossing I was met with a torrent of abuse which started "You drivers are all the f**k**g same..." ???

But this is a digression.  Somehow the "them and us" culture has to be broken down.  Reading many of the threads here it is clear that these divisive attitudes are as prevalent among cyclists as they are among motorists.  We have to learn to respect each other.  And to earn that respect.  Cuts both ways.

It will be interesting to see if the Times campaign lasts.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #77 on: 09 February, 2012, 10:02:26 pm »
All the letters in The Times today that were about cycling were anti.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #78 on: 10 February, 2012, 07:56:06 am »
I would say your MP's experiences of who ignores pedestrian crossings are purely anecdotal.

On the contrary; as worded it is difficult to find fault with that particular comment.  Though it is perhaps not very helpful to the argument.

True, but as worded it doesn't really mean much. It would also be true to say "Some motorists have less regard for pedestrian crossings than cyclists". The "some" may or may not be different in each case, but the statement can stand by itself either way round. Anecdotally, only yesterday I watched a "professional" driver set off through a light that had been red for some time, making contact with a pedestrian who had to leap out of the way. That was probably down to inattention/stupidity rather than deliberate, but that's probably more worrying.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

AndyK

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #79 on: 10 February, 2012, 07:59:54 am »
Asterix, show your MP this video.

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #80 on: 10 February, 2012, 08:26:24 am »
The Lords were talking about this on Tuesday http://www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/?id=2012-02-08a.257.7

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #81 on: 20 February, 2012, 08:41:07 pm »
I too have had a reply from my mp's office.
I don't think his researchers actually read what I wrote.
The guy is a tosser of the first order but I'm going to continue the debate as otherwise he'll continue to get away with being a pointless parasite.

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #82 on: 20 February, 2012, 10:34:54 pm »
I would say your MP's experiences of who ignores pedestrian crossings are purely anecdotal.

On the contrary; as worded it is difficult to find fault with that particular comment.  Though it is perhaps not very helpful to the argument.

True, but as worded it doesn't really mean much. It would also be true to say "Some motorists have less regard for pedestrian crossings than cyclists". The "some" may or may not be different in each case, but the statement can stand by itself either way round. Anecdotally, only yesterday I watched a "professional" driver set off through a light that had been red for some time, making contact with a pedestrian who had to leap out of the way. That was probably down to inattention/stupidity rather than deliberate, but that's probably more worrying.

Where I live, Zebra crossings have almost disappeared, to be replaced by an assortment of traffic light controlled crossings.

The justification is that it reduces casualities (presumably KSIs). I haven't researched the validity of that assertion :-[. But if it were true, it would be unbeliveable that cyclists caused a lot of the casualities.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #83 on: 20 February, 2012, 10:40:14 pm »
I detest the light controlled crossings for they ceed power to the motorist.

I would not have an issue if the lights changed when you pressed the button; but they do not. You stand there for random lengths of time as motorists who were in a different county when you pressed the button sail past you.

What ever happened to the British art of queuing eh?

It is simpler than it looks.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #84 on: 20 February, 2012, 10:47:49 pm »
I detest the light controlled crossings for they ceed power to the motorist.

I would not have an issue if the lights changed when you pressed the button; but they do not. You stand there for random lengths of time as motorists who were in a different county when you pressed the button sail past you.

What ever happened to the British art of queuing eh?
Some change quite quickly, most do not. A person from Bristol Cycling Campaign who's in contact with the council explained to me that most of the new ones work on a ten-second delay because if they change instantly, it's unsafe - people get used to them changing immediately and walk straight across without looking. Apparently. I find this explanation unconvincing, because if the lights start changing the instant you press the button, they still have to go through the amber phase and a second or so of red before the green man lights up. Another thing is that the Puffin design, with the red/green man on the button next to you rather than on the opposite side of the road, encourages crossers to look at the light rather than the traffic, IMO. In fact they make it hard to even see the approaching traffic because the box is at eye level on a pole between you and the traffic.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #85 on: 20 February, 2012, 11:12:00 pm »
I find it an unconvincing argument too, given that they generally replace Zebra crossings. You remember those? The ones that drivers had to slow down at if there were pedestrians about, and had to stop at if the merest sliver of pedestrian toenail crossed  the kerb.

No doubt - light controlled crossings are 100% for the motorist. They throw away the notion of first come first served and match Beeching and Marple in brutalism.
It is simpler than it looks.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #86 on: 20 February, 2012, 11:18:43 pm »
We still have a fair number of zebras in Bristol, at least on Gloucester Rd and Whiteladies Rd. There's one I often use to get from the Sheffield stands on one side of the road to the greengrocer's directly opposite and it works very well. But definitely there are fewer than there used to be. I think one factor is that motorists don't tend to stop for pedestrians on zebras as their speeds rise nearer to and above 30mph or thereabouts. Not that they can't stop, but they don't like to!
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #87 on: 21 February, 2012, 12:35:12 am »
I detest the light controlled crossings for they ceed power to the motorist.

I would not have an issue if the lights changed when you pressed the button; but they do not. You stand there for random lengths of time as motorists who were in a different county when you pressed the button sail past you.

What ever happened to the British art of queuing eh?
It's much more subtle than that.

Our local pedestrian lights fall into 3 categories.
1) Press the button and the words "WAIT" light up. It amazes me that so many pedestrians haven't realised that that is the only effect it has.
2) Press the button and eventually you'll get your turn to cross. There would have been plenty of time to cross while the traffic lights were red or amber, if the vehicular users of the road obeyed the law, but that's unrealistic.
3) Press the button & wait for the response. When a gap occurs in the traffic, cross anyway. Look back & see the lights change. Watch the cars queue for an already obsolete reason. Wonder why anyone (aka Highway Engineer/ politician overruling anyone with common sense) is stupid/ignorant enough not to realise why this is Not A Good Idea.
 

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #88 on: 21 February, 2012, 07:38:59 am »
I too have had a reply from my mp's office.
I don't think his researchers actually read what I wrote.
The guy is a tosser of the first order but I'm going to continue the debate as otherwise he'll continue to get away with being a pointless parasite.

I have had a reply from local MP as well. Despite saying in his opening line...
Quote
I commend The Times for highlighting this important issue and I know ministers will consider the points raised as part of their ongoing work to improve safety for cyclists.
There is then two pages of coalition speil about road safety and how Britain remains a world leader.
He completely side stepped the question on my original contact, which was has he signed up.
I will write a follow up this afternoon, although Its questionable what use it is.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #89 on: 21 February, 2012, 09:34:25 am »
3) Press the button & wait for the response. When a gap occurs in the traffic, cross anyway. Look back & see the lights change. Watch the cars queue for an already obsolete reason. Wonder why anyone (aka Highway Engineer/ politician overruling anyone with common sense) is stupid/ignorant enough not to realise why this is Not A Good Idea.
 
This is what the Puffin crossings were designed to tackle (I think). Thanks to their infrared sensors they can detect if the person waiting to cross has already done so before the lights change or has crossed quicker than the allotted time - quite easy if you're young and fit and in a hurry - and so cancel or shorten the red phase. Of course this would be avoided if the lights changed as soon as you pressed the button. They can also extend the red  light phase if you take longer than the allotted time to cross - probably more common than the quicker scenario. So they should be beneficial to pedestrians and traffic flow, compared to Pelicans. They still do make pedestrians wait for the light though - perhaps that's the worst thing about all light-controlled crossings, they show that drivers are more willing to stop for an inanimate coloured light than a person.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Salvatore

  • Джон Спунър
    • Pics
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #90 on: 21 February, 2012, 09:42:34 am »
Pedestrians patiently waiting as the timer counts down the amount of waiting time. Debrecen, Hungary.

Quote
et avec John, excellent lecteur de road-book, on s'en est sortis sans erreur

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #91 on: 21 February, 2012, 09:46:47 am »
Yes, at least in Britain we're not bound by law to wait for the green man on penalty of paying a fine - and I do know people who've been fined for it.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #92 on: 21 February, 2012, 09:50:13 am »
I detest the light controlled crossings for they ceed power to the motorist.

I would not have an issue if the lights changed when you pressed the button; but they do not. You stand there for random lengths of time as motorists who were in a different county when you pressed the button sail past you.

What ever happened to the British art of queuing eh?
Some change quite quickly, most do not. A person from Bristol Cycling Campaign who's in contact with the council explained to me that most of the new ones work on a ten-second delay because if they change instantly, it's unsafe - people get used to them changing immediately and walk straight across without looking. Apparently.
I had a discussion with an official, years ago now, about shortening the wait at a 'toucan' where a sustrans route crosses a rural road. I was told there was some minimum wait where the road's speed limit was 40mph+. I can't see any good justification for this.

A sort of lose-lose for the vulnerable road users!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #93 on: 21 February, 2012, 09:57:57 am »
Yes, at least in Britain we're not bound by law to wait for the green man on penalty of paying a fine - and I do know people who've been fined for it.

I horrified people in germany by crossing the road when it was perfectly safe, but not legal. 

I didn't know :-[

My favourite pedestrian crossing is in Carshalton, where the shared use path crosses the High Street.  It changes pretty much straight away.

Least favourite is crossing Trinity Road, Wandsworth at the Common.  You can wait for aaaaaages on a tiny bit of pavement filling rapidly with weans arriving waiting to cross.
Getting there...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #94 on: 21 February, 2012, 10:08:31 am »
Yes, at least in Britain we're not bound by law to wait for the green man on penalty of paying a fine - and I do know people who've been fined for it.

I horrified people in germany by crossing the road when it was perfectly safe, but not legal. 

I didn't know :-[
I do know, but I ignore this law anyway (when I'm in Poland) - unless there's a policeman around! In fact Polish pedestrians are increasingly following the 'British' pattern - I don't think it's all my doing! Also, drivers there are starting to follow the British pattern at zebras, ie stopping when someone is waiting rather than simply to avoid mowing them down.  :thumbsup: At least in bigger places - I think it must be an effect of increasing traffic densities.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #95 on: 21 February, 2012, 10:20:42 am »
Here the Puffin crossing appears to be set to change only when there is a Puffin waiting to cross.
It is simpler than it looks.

ian

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #96 on: 21 February, 2012, 11:44:09 am »
We have quite a few zebra crossings here. To be honest, you'd probably need to be helping a zebra to cross to get drivers to notice them. Surprisingly, even on the steppes of Greater Croydonia, actual zebras are impractical to get a hold of. It's not so bad when there is dense traffic, but outside of those times, vehicles get to speed up and the little thought that goes through most drivers' brains seems to be 'why stop, there's no one behind me, they can cross then.' Of course, they never check there's anyone behind them. You also get the convoys, were all the following vehicles are so intent on the car in front they don't even notice the crossings. Mostly, it's a case of fixing the approaching drivers with a steely stare and stepping out like you mean it. Carrying a rocket launcher or large calibre automatic weapon would probably help. More prosaically, you do need your wits about you, especially when the traffic can get up 40 mph. There's been one death recently, and a seriously injured child, which says something about the traffic on that road.

There's another zebra crossing down by the station. That's not nice either, mostly because drivers can't manage both a junction and a crossing. The neural input is too much and their brains parboil in their own cerebro-spinal fluid, which means they drive even worse that usual, which might have previously seemed impossible.

They ought to be safe and perfect for the situation, but in practice, the standard of driving and level of respect for pedestrians isn't there. I imagine at some point the burghers of Croydonia will replace them with light-controlled crossings, which are The Worst Way to Manage a Road Crossing Ever. I do wonder if the people behind those things ever cross a road. Perhaps they have special portable tunnels or bridges they carry around with them, so don't have to bother with their creations. They simply have some kind of quantum wormhole device. Why did the traffic engineer cross the road? Because the relevant probability function said he had.

There's a wonderful one in Peckham High Street that combines one of those eye-level indicators (useful in a crowd, I'm sure) with a wait time measured in geological era. Peckham is not exactly known for its law abiding ways (the police pulled out in 2006 and it's now a UN mandate, probably) so impatience wins out and people end up facing-off traffic. Then, like they've watched first penguin to jump into a sea that might have hidden a hungry killer whale, everyone else streams out. Power to the people. So the light is green, the crossing indicator is red, but the cars are stuck anyway. Of course, once the pedestrians have crossed, the light turns red and the cars are stuck at an empty crossing. Rinse and repeat. I tried to think of a worse way to manage a road crossing, but short of flooding the road and adding actual killer whales, I couldn't.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #97 on: 21 February, 2012, 12:08:27 pm »
I'm all in favour of button operated pedestrian crossings, so long as they are usually red for the motor traffic and green for pedestrians.  Approaching motorists should push a button and wait for a ridiculous length of time (at least until the pedestrian way has been empty for a full minute) before the lights change.
Getting there...

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #98 on: 21 February, 2012, 01:12:53 pm »
I have yet to determine why I have to wait for vehicles that are over a quarter of a mile away, which puts them beyond the next junction, before I get the go ahead to cross the road. It really is a reversal of the hierarchy that should be in place.

"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #99 on: 21 February, 2012, 06:27:03 pm »
I operate a crossing karma system when I'm walking. If I want to cross the road, I push the button anyway and I'll cross if it's safe, regardless of what colour the lights are. Hopefully, it helps someone else cross the road too, as when they reach the crossing I used a short while ago, the lights will be in their favour.
I think we should all do this and extend it, so that whenever you pass a pedestrian crossing, you push the button whether you want to cross or not. By the time the lights have changed, someone may want to cross the road and they won't have to wait.
If nobody wants to cross the road, then that's just bad luck for anything on the road. It's quite normal at other light controlled junctions to have to wait for the lights to change when the road is clear.

For zebra crossings, what's needed is a pram full of concrete pushed in front.