Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: Wendy on 27 October, 2009, 11:56:52 am
-
Post your brightest rear lights here:
Mid-category:
Smart 1/2 watt flash
Relatively cheap, popular light.
Approx £12
Powered by 2 x AAA batteries, lasts a claimed 30 hours flashing, 15 steady.
Poor water resistance
Powerful category:
BLT Fantom XR9
Approx £28
Powered by 3 x AA batteries. Lasts a claimed 20hrs on full, 90 on flash.
Cheap, but limited by poor mounting brackets. This one is extremely bright, but has a relatively narrow beam.
RSP Astrum
Approx £15-20
Powered by 2 x AA batteries, lasts a claimed 8 hours on full.
Has 2 x 1/2 watt LEDs, one has a diffuser lens. It's bright, brighter than the smart 1/2 watt flash, but not as bright as the BLT Fantom XR9. It has much better side-on visibility though.
Super powerful:
Exposure Redeye
Approx £35
Lasts a claimed 9 hours on a 1 cell piggyback battery.
As bright or slightly brighter than the BLT Fantom, but over a much larger field of view. Excellent diffuser. Runs off the power port on an Exposure front light, or a stand-alone Exposure battery (1 cell piggy back battery costs £36)
Dunno much about the Dinottes or other available lights - please post if you know the gen..
-
Smart 1/2W takes 2 AAA batteries.
-
I had to return a Smart 1/2 watt rear as soon as I got it - switch was haunted and it just turned on-off-flashing almost at random as soon as the bike moved.
-
Dinotte 400l rear.
The only thing brighter is the frankly unusable 600l version.
-
Doh, thanks for spotting that typo Alex. Yes, the switch can be unreliable. I bent mine slightly and that sorted it.
-
Cateye TL1100 is another "mid category"
Does various flashing modes
Takes AA batteries
Good side visibility
Stupid complicated switches
Over priced but often in a sale
-
Dinotte 400l rear.
The only thing brighter is the frankly unusable 600l version.
Great fun aren't they. I'm thinking of strapping mine on for the urban Cambridge commute... :demon: ;D
-
I've never tried an expensive one, but three mid-priced lamps:
Smart 1/2 watt superflash:
useless in the rain, hopeless switches that either dont work or work by magic every 2 minutes, and they keep bouncing off the bike.
Cateye 600 / 610:
great, last for ages, very visible, both on sale at wiggle
Blackburn 4.0:
very solid and leak-proof but needs a screwdriver to change the batteries.
I've just bought a bundle of very cheap 'Antarex Mx-One' single LED lights from on-one (about a fiver each). A bit like Knog lights which i'm going to use as extras as well as a catye 600 on each bike, they look flimsier than my resistance to cake but are nice and bright.
-
I've got a Cateye TL LD1100 as mentioned above, and it's great. Good side visibility, and I like the fact one row of LEDs can be constant, and the other flashing. Planning on backing that up this year with some Knog Frogs (just bought a set on Wiggle as precisely that, back up lights in case of disaster).
Tried a Blackburn Mars 3.0 on the back (actually, on the back of Mel's bike) and that's pretty good as well. Mid-priced.
-
Smart 1/2 watt superflash:
useless in the rain, hopeless switches that either dont work or work by magic every 2 minutes, and they keep bouncing off the bike.
Absolute opposite of my experience with a Smart 1/2W superflash.
Never had a problem with it and I'm not afraid of a ride in a bit of rain. It survived BCM/LEL/etc, and is my backup commuting light. No problems with water ingress either.
It has never unclipped from my rucksack (very unlikely as it clips onto the elasticated bits) and never from my Creek2Peak rackpack or the Altura pannier cover or the strap buckle on my Carradice Barley.
-
British Standard or Equivalent
Busch and Muller, Seculite Plus ;)
-
Never felt any practical need to use anything more powerful than a Cateye 600/610.
I've never had any problem with either of them in 3 years of constant use.
If I buy another rear light I'll get another 610.
-
Never felt any practical need to use anything more powerful than a Cateye 600/610.
I've never had any problem with either of them in 3 years of constant use.
If I buy another rear light I'll get another 610.
Same here.
When I left Wowbagger's last night my 610 was lighting up the garden gate even though it's a brightly street lit area.
I've used the Cateye 600 since their launch (anybody know when that was? I'm guessing around the year 2000?)
-
British Standard or Equivalent
Busch and Muller, Seculite Plus ;)
I have one of these on my audax bike. Mounts on the mudguard, nice and neat, good reflector. Not very very bright but good for the "fit and forget" factor
-
Busch and Muller, Seculite Plus ;)
I have one of these on my audax bike. Mounts on the mudguard, nice and neat, good reflector. Not very very bright but good for the "fit and forget" factor
I've been told that mine was seen during a heavy downpour one half mile away. I'd say it's plenty bright.
It doesn't need batteries as it runs on magic. ;)
-
I've still got a blue patch in my vision from the overdose of RED that I was subjected to by a certain rear light on the Solstice Warty from Glastonbury to Stonehenge. 3 months ago.
Should I name and shame?
-
Can we have a tickbox for:
seat-stay mountable, angled down/horizontal ? :)
And for my use, I'd like something that will go on a rear rack stay (i.e. where a bracket mounts pointing downwards, and typically slides down ... ) without major fettling.
-
I've got 3 smart 1/2 watt beauties. Two of them have provided faultless service for around two years; the third was only purchased last month and it's go the ghost switch syndrome. As for waterproofing, a bit of insulating tape a round the seal sorts that out.
-
I noticed that Maplins are selling a red 10W halogen bulb that fits my vistalite or a light and motion system.
But that would be crazy.
-
Never felt any practical need to use anything more powerful than a Cateye 600/610.
I've never had any problem with either of them in 3 years of constant use.
If I buy another rear light I'll get another 610.
I get contact problems with most battery lights after time. These two have the added problem that only one end is accessible for cleaning or re-bending. I would never trust a rear lamp I do not know is working or not.
-
I have a B&M Seculight on the mudguard and a B&M Flatlight (Battery) on the rack.
Not the brightest but they work.
-
I've just ordered a BLT Fantom XR9. I just couldn't resist the marketing. I mean who can resist a rear light named after a Jet Fighter a popular handgun AND my favourite audax foodstuff.
-
BLT Fantom and a Smart, plus supplementary danglers.
-
I use the Smart 1/2W for my bright light, along with a Seculight Plus and a cateye AU100BS. No problems with either water or auto-switching.
I have previously used the Cateye 600 (battery compartment too short for some rechargeables, can't fit aimed horizontally on most seat stays using the supplied bracketry), and the Cateye 1000 grenade (kept going out & had to be hit to get it to come back on)
-
Dinotte Taillight [Upgraded to 140l]
2x Cateye LD600s
-
The BLT looks good if you can find a way of putting it on your bike. I like the idea of using AA batteries instead of AAAs. But isn't 1 watt overkill? With half a watt, the batteries would last much longer and you'd still have a very bright light.
I think my Smart half watt is plenty bright enough.
Tell me why I'm wrong or right.
-
Dinotte 400l rear.
The only thing brighter is the frankly unusable 600l version.
+1
I discussed the Redeye at the Cycle Show and they are bringing one out shortly that is self contained, probably "button batteries to keep the size down.
-
British Standard or Equivalent
Busch and Muller, Seculite Plus ;)
I have one of these on my audax bike. Mounts on the mudguard, nice and neat, good reflector. Not very very bright but good for the "fit and forget" factor
What I'd really like is summat like this but battery powered. And a battery light which comes with a good rack adaptor, for racks with no light fittings at all. And one which fit easily & securely, pointing in the right direction, to a seatstay. And all racks to come with proper mountings for every imaginable light. And every seatpack, rack pack, & saddlebag to come with a loop or other fitting for a light, & lights-a-plenty to be made which fit perfectly onto it.
Let's put all the makers of bike lights, racks, & bags into a brightly lit room with a hard floor & no heating (or air conditioning if it's hot outside) food, water, toilets or seats, & tell them they're only allowed out when they've agreed on a single decent set of light mountings, to be incorporated into all their products.
Can we have a tickbox for:
seat-stay mountable, angled down/horizontal ? :)
And for my use, I'd like something that will go on a rear rack stay (i.e. where a bracket mounts pointing downwards, and typically slides down ... ) without major fettling.
Seconded
-
Let's put all the makers of bike lights, racks, & bags into a brightly lit room with a hard floor & no heating (or air conditioning if it's hot outside) food, water, toilets or seats, & tell them they're only allowed out when they've agreed on a single decent set of light mountings, to be incorporated into all their products.
They'd sell fewer brackets which, I'm guessing, they make a considerable amount of money on.
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/c/cycle/7/Lights_-_Spares/
£4.99 for a Cateye H34 Flex Tight Light Bracket! Then look at the Lupine ones!
-
Extra brackets and rack mounting brackets are available for the smart 1/2 watt rear LED
-
Let's put all the makers of bike lights, racks, & bags into a brightly lit room with a hard floor & no heating (or air conditioning if it's hot outside) food, water, toilets or seats, & tell them they're only allowed out when they've agreed on a single decent set of light mountings, to be incorporated into all their products.
They'd sell fewer brackets which, I'm guessing, they make a considerable amount of money on.
Cycle | Cycling | Bike Light Spares At Wiggle
(http://www.wiggle.co.uk/c/cycle/7/Lights_-_Spares/)
£4.99 for a Cateye H34 Flex Tight Light Bracket! Then look at the Lupine ones!
Sad but true. Still, it's an enjoyable fantasy, isn't it?
BTW, about those Wiggle prices -
Cateye Small Parts | Head Lights | EL135 (http://www.cateye.com/store/parts.php?cid=2_98)
But still expensive for what they are. :(
-
I have several Cateye 600s and 610s. Rate them very highly. Agree that anything more powerful is not needed. On the last FNRttC I did, I had to avoid getting stuck behind certain people because their rear lights were just too bright.
d.
-
I have several Cateye 600s and 610s. Rate them very highly. Agree that anything more powerful is not needed. On the last FNRttC I did, I had to avoid getting stuck behind certain people because their rear lights were just too bright.
d.
Depends on the conditions you are cycling?
Blasting up and down 5 miles of DC in all weathers during my commute has me wanting for lights that are rather bright and difficult to miss.
Taking part in CM or FNRttC would have me reaching for more placid lighting.
-
What could be nice, I suppose, would be a 2-setting rear light; normal and fog. Same at the front; normal and "high beam".
-
Can we have a tickbox for:
seat-stay mountable, angled down/horizontal ? :)
And for my use, I'd like something that will go on a rear rack stay (i.e. where a bracket mounts pointing downwards, and typically slides down ... ) without major fettling.
Get a cateye light that you fancy and then order the brackets from wiggle
Mrs Vorsprung has a rack mounted TL1100 and I have a seat stay mounted one
It's probably a little expensive but it works
-
Can we have a tickbox for:
seat-stay mountable, angled down/horizontal ? :)
And for my use, I'd like something that will go on a rear rack stay (i.e. where a bracket mounts pointing downwards, and typically slides down ... ) without major fettling.
Get a cateye light that you fancy and then order the brackets from wiggle
Mrs Vorsprung has a rack mounted TL1100 and I have a seat stay mounted one
It's probably a little expensive but it works
I already own most of Cateye's brackets - I'm surprised you can mount a TL1100 as I described. But then I've never had one [cheapskate], and I only see them attached under the saddle, so I'd be happy to be proved wrong!
-
I also have a rack mounted TLD1000. The same bracket also fits the LD600. I have a tourtec rack that came with an aluminium bracket that fits well with the bracket supplied by cateye. The one like this -
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Mp2_XDvx6ihdGM:http://www.getprice.com.au/images/uploadimg/767/350__1_cateye-tail-light-bracket-med.jpg)
There is also this bracket that will fit a rack without an existing right angle on it.
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:B_kS1W8QNVVOaM:http://www.wiggle.co.uk/images/cateye-ca5342250.jpg)
-
Available from under £3 plus P&P, or £3.99 post free. But some naughty people in Nottingham want £4.99 + £5 P&P.
-
There is also this bracket that will fit a rack without an existing right angle on it
That's the one I use on the commuter.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/Chickenhawk66/DSCF0012.jpg)
-
Depends on the conditions you are cycling?
Blasting up and down 5 miles of DC in all weathers during my commute has me wanting for lights that are rather bright and difficult to miss.
Possibly. But on the other hand, drivers are very good at spotting cyclists with no lights at all, so I suspect the visibility problem is somewhat overstated. If conditions are so bad that the driver of the car behind can't see your EL610 until he ploughs into the back of you, then he was driving way too fast for the conditions. After all, as has been said elsewhere on the forum many times, drivers have a responsibility not to hit objects in the road even if they're unlit.
d.
-
I think we need a Gallery thread for 'innovative lamp brackets'.
-
Like these?
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b187/vicechair/Rear%20light%20tests/PB070433.jpg) (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b187/vicechair/Rear%20light%20tests/PB070434.jpg)
-
yes, exactly ! :thumbsup:
-
BLT + trice = the kind of too-bright problem. But I've always grumbled about too-bright lights; there's an archive on urbancyclist-UK of me bitching about the TLD-600s as being ridiculous retina-scarring overbastard.
-
I've only ever had a problem if the lights are not angled slightly downwards (or at least straight back), or are flashing - for night rides on pitch black lanes I would never set a light to flash, save it for urban rides when every little bit helps in terms of visibility.
-
I'm afraid my BLT mounting solution is far less sophisticated. I simply used self amalgamating rubber tape to build up the seat stay diameter. Not pretty but does a good job of coping with the vibration.
-
Now then chaps and chapesses :hand: for those uneducated in the wherewithalls of the details of said lights, can you post a piccie of your light with your post, (edit your post) so those without a copy of BICYCLE LIGHTING MONTHLY, will know wat these 'ere lights look like. :thumbsup: thank you
-
Now then chaps and chapesses :hand: for those uneducated in the wherewithalls of the details of said lights, can you post a piccie of your light with your post, (edit your post) so those without a copy of BICYCLE LIGHTING MONTHLY, will know wat these 'ere lights look like. :thumbsup: thank you
Very droll :thumbsup:
-
Mike/Wendy, is there any chance that you can drag all the various comments up into your intial posting so we can preserve it as a "sticky" of some description?
I'd like to add the:
Cateye SL110 Loop Rear Light Only £7.99
(http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Cateye_SL110_Loop_Rear_Light/5360045557/#more)
Cateye SL110 to the list. I saw one in the rain a few days back and it was astonishingly bright. I assumed it was a Dinotte initially, it was throwing a really big halo of red out the back as well as the central bright spot.
downside is the battery type, but as a back up that actually works, this has to be worth having - especially at that price.
-
Smart Lunar 1/2 watt here.
-
Two new rear lights, which I haven't seen mentioned here (probably because the thread died out 12 months ago!):
(i) Exposure Lights - Flare (http://www.exposurelights.com/product/000059/flare/), which is powered by a CR123A disposable, or RC123A rechargeable. Exposure quotes 75 lumens output, which is pretty damned bright.
(ii) Light & Motion Vis 180 (http://www.bikelightingsystem.com/vis180.html), which is powered by an internal Li-Ion cell, and seems to require a micro-USB connection to charge it up (as far as I can see no charger is supplied, but I could be wrong). It's quoted as having an output of 35 lumens, which is still quote bright.
The Flare seems to be primarily intended to be fitted to seat-posts, whereas the Vis 180 looks like it's mainly meant to be fitted to seat-stays (and other relatively thin tubing), although possibly seat posts can be used as well (it's hard to say without actually looking at it).
The Vis 180 interestingly has side amber lights, whereas the Flare only seems to scatter some of it's single P4 emitter off to the sides.
If you've got the 10% discount at ChainReaction currently (which a lot of people have for the next few days), then the Flare is £36 from them (disposable battery option), and the Vis 180 would be £81.
I haven't seen either of these yet, but they look interesting (although probably not for group rides).
-
Another not for group rides, but reassuring for the lone commuter is the RSP Astrum. Looks similar to the 1/2W Smart one, but with two LEDs side-by-side. Goes for £13-15.
-
I have all sorts of rear lights.
Smart Superflash 1/2W: mine's been totally reliable and lives on the commuting bike
Halfords super bright LED: small and has a BS compliant reflector but very unreliable. I have one working one left (of three) on the clubman.
Cateye TL-AU100BS: reliable but totally outclassed these days. I thought mine had lost its main LED but no, it really is that weak.
All other Cateyes died very quickly because they're made from cheese.
FibreFlare long: this is an odd thing indeed. In flashing mode it's unmissable and frankly rather offensive to anyone behind. In steady mode mattc describes it as "oddly comforting"; it's a bit like a one bar electric fire to look at. Pretty useless in fog as it has no real lens and throws no penetrating beam.
If I ever see one, the ultimate rear light has to be the Energizer halogen. It's simply the 2.4W front light with a red lens. Psychotic. Unlike a "half watt" LED which actually pulls an average of about 0.005W based on battery life, this really is 2.4W and will flatten 4 x AA NiMH cells in two hours. But you could ride backwards with the beam 8)
EDIT: gosh (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Energizer-Front-Rear-Halogen-Bike-Lights-Cycle-Lamps_W0QQitemZ170562693223QQcategoryZ22689QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D370448935245%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D4931186554760528469) - they haven't made these in 15 years!
-
If I ever see one, the ultimate rear light has to be the Energizer halogen. It's simply the 2.4W front light with a red lens. Psychotic. Unlike a "half watt" LED which actually pulls an average of about 0.005W based on battery life, this really is 2.4W and will flatten 4 x AA NiMH cells in two hours. But you could ride backwards with the beam 8)
You've clearly never ridden behind a Dinotte or similar!!
-
I have. What power do they actually draw? It would need to be almost 1 watt to equal a 2.4W halogen (rule of thumb; LEDs are about three times more efficient).
-
FibreFlare long: this is an odd thing indeed. In flashing mode it's unmissable and frankly rather offensive to anyone behind. In steady mode mattc describes it as "oddly comforting"; it's a bit like a one bar electric fire to look at. Pretty useless in fog as it has no real lens and throws no penetrating beam.
I'd agree with that assessment. When I first met one, I was underwhelmed by the general lack of brightness, but having ridden with people using them I've realised that they're surprisingly effective at standing out in city clutter. Best used in combination with something sensible like a Superflash, though.
The Radbot 1000 (http://www.ridepdw.com/goods/lights/radbot™-1000) hasn't been mentioned yet. Discussed at length in this thread (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=34773.0). It has an 'oddly comforting' sinusoidal throb mode. Notable features are that it's about twice as bright as a Superflash, and uses the same brackets.
-
I have. What power do they actually draw? It would need to be almost 1 watt to equal a 2.4W halogen (rule of thumb; LEDs are about three times more efficient).
A 7.2V 4400mAh battery lasts a claimed 5 hours on full power. No contest, right?
-
It would be quite possible to cycle using a Dinotte 140R on full blast as a (red) headlight. Not legal obviously, but it would certainly provide enough light. This is of course the older, dimmer light. The newer 300R and 400R are even brighter!
Incidentally, I hadn't seen the 300R until I just looked at the Dinotte website. It's a self contained light, and comes with a complete set of clamps for most diameters of tubing, from which the light can be removed with a quick release. It's another light that's charged from a USB port, and Dinotte apparently won't ship the charger outside of the USA.
-
I've various Superflashes and Cateye hanging of the fleet, but the latest addition, an Exposure Flare, is awesome, as well as being easily moved between bikes.
-
I noticed Hope are working on a rear light. Available early next year for £95. Should be pretty bright. District Rear light - The worlds brightest rear light?!... (http://www.hopetech.com/page.aspx?itemID=SPG210)
Or anyone tried this one from Magicshine? Apparently its a 3W LED, and not too expensive, including a battery pack.
DealExtreme: $57.60 Magicshine MJ-818 HA-III SSC 42180U 3W 3-Mode LED Bike Tail Light Set (4*18650 included)
(http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.42077)
-
A 7.2V 4400mAh battery lasts a claimed 5 hours on full power. No contest, right?
That's equivalent to about 20W halogen. Doesn't it dazzle anyone behind?
-
How many watts of taillight are installed in your car? And how many watts when you add brake lighting, and add fog lighting?
-
A 7.2V 4400mAh battery lasts a claimed 5 hours on full power. No contest, right?
That's equivalent to about 20W halogen. Doesn't it dazzle anyone behind?
Yes, but you don't want to use any of the really bright rear lights in group rides. I only use my Dinotte on it's lowest setting in normal night time conditions, and try not to use it in group rides at all, unless I'm literally the last Tail-End-Charlie, or forget (feel free to moan at me if I do this!).
I sometimes use it on full blast, in fog during the day or in other really bad conditions. A couple of years back cycling at about 7am on a Saturday morning, it was dark and snowing, and I heard a bus brake hard behind me when he realised that I was just ahead of him. I was glad I had it on, on that occasion. A conventional 2AA Cateye type LED light would not have been visible under such conditions.
-
How many watts of taillight are installed in your car? And how many watts when you add brake lighting, and add fog lighting?
In one place, 21W, non-halogen and very diffused.
-
No, a little more honesty please. List them all, as requested.
-
How many watts of taillight are installed in your car? And how many watts when you add brake lighting, and add fog lighting?
In one place, 21W, non-halogen and very diffused.
Last time I checked, fog lights are only for use in very reduced visibility, and brake lights ... well, something's gone wrong if they're on for much of the time.(and plenty of motons moan about other motons that ride the brake pedal).
I've sort of lost track of what the point of this strand is , but :
average "audaxer" tail-lights are already brighter than those on an average family car. I watched a convoy of such things last week so was able to make a clear comparison.
-
Sonny, you need the love of a bad woman ;)
-
ICBA to argue on the Internet. However, it's worth pointing out that a 21W non-halogen lamp, producing continuous spectrum white light, doesn't produce very much red light at all when you put a deep red lens over it.
Maybe we should have a group light test of *rear* lights? Different technique required to that used for the front lights; what matters is the perceived brightness at (say) 100 metres, not the illumination. Can be done on a dark straight road with a digicam set to manual exposure. And I'll bring my car if I have to ;)
-
Hi matt,
I'm concerned as to what I should with regard to rear lights.
Why? Well, my problem is I'm not an average Audaxer, I'm a very slow one.
;D
-
One of those flashing amber beacons they use on parked skips would do you just fine.
-
Group test of taillights sounds like a good idea, where and when?
I suggest checking directly in line and at a few degrees offline vertically and horizontally.
-
Hi matt,
I'm concerned as to what I should with regard to rear lights.
Why? Well, my problem is I'm not an average Audaxer, I'm a very slow one.
;D
If you maintain your recent performance, I can confirm that no other AUKS will ever know, let alone care, what tail-light you use.
(If you want a more hard-core insult than that, you know who to ask. ;) )
-
I suggest checking directly in line and at a few degrees offline vertically and horizontally.
Directly in line, and slightly off is useful, but I'd suggest 45° and 90° would also be informative. The first value giving an idea of how fast the beam is falling off, and the second an indication of whether there is any attempt to make things visible from the side. Some lights, like the CatEye TL-LD1100, deliberately have side facing LEDs, and it's a useful feature to my mind.
-
One of those flashing amber beacons they use on parked skips would do you just fine.
Roger,
Many thanks for enlightening me with your experience. ;)
-
Agree about 90 degree, not so sure about 45 degree. Perhaps half that?
-
I suggest checking directly in line and at a few degrees offline vertically and horizontally.
Directly in line, and slightly off is useful, but I'd suggest 45° and 90° would also be informative. The first value giving an idea of how fast the beam is falling off, and the second an indication of whether there is any attempt to make things visible from the side. Some lights, like the CatEye TL-LD1100, deliberately have side facing LEDs, and it's a useful feature to my mind.
Within thinking/braking distance for a driver, the angle is more or less head-on anyway. The off-axis illumination is important for two reasons: the light might not be perfectly aligned by the person fitting it, and HGV drivers sit significantly higher up than a car driver. I would say that 10 degrees would be quite sufficient.
-
In an ideal world, I'd want a continuous plot from 0° to 90°. In practice without a automated system for doing this, it would take impractically long to undertake.
I wasn't so much trying to get an idea of how well it was visible from rear approaching traffic, but how wide the overall spread was (and significant off angle spread would be useful at junctions, on curved roads). Like front lights, some rear lights have very bright but very narrow beams, whereas others spread the light over a wide beam.
It would be easier to measure some characteristics of the width by going significantly off bore. If you just go a little bit off bore, the light level may be 90% or 88% down, the difference between which would be fiddly to measure. If you went significantly off bore, say 30° or 45°, the drop would be more significant, as would be the differences, so noise in the measurement would be less important.
-
Rear lights are interesting because it all comes down to perception rather than light output. We can't measure the effect of different flash rates objectively, for instance. And is a small intense point more noticeable than a large block of red light? Car rear lights tend toward the latter, bike lights (for reasons of packaging) towards the former, although the unique Fibre Flare has more in common with the car type (in practice I believe the FF's visibility in flashing mode results from a WTF? factor, because there is nothing else that size and shape which turns on and off so rapidly).
We might also need comparisons for a busy street with traffic and an unlit road. Size might be more or less important than intensity when there are a lot of other light sources, including oncoming headlights and street lighting.
-
Okay, dusting off my latent social scientist, how about collecting some standardised photographs/videos of assorted lights at various angles, then getting a selection of
victims undergrads subjects participants to bubble-sort[1] them in order of subjective brightness/visibility/attention-gettingness/annoyingness to be stuck behind/coolness. Then you just cook analyse the data using whichever poorly-understood statistical methodology gives the best headlines results that you like the best. Childish giggling about "Spearman's wank" etc. optional.
It's not proper cold hard SCIENCE, but it would allow you to do a meaningful comparison of lights in terms of hard-to-quantify parameters like "side visibility at junctions" and "ability to stand out in traffic".
[1] Why yes, I did switch from Social Psychology to Computer Science after a year, how did you guess?
-
...I just suggested a bike light version of hotornot.com, didn't I?
-
Okay, dusting off my latent social scientist, how about collecting some standardised photographs/videos of assorted lights at various angles, then getting a selection of victims undergrads subjects participants to bubble-sort[1] them in order of subjective brightness/visibility/attention-gettingness/annoyingness to be stuck behind/coolness. Then you just cook analyse the data using whichever poorly-understood statistical methodology gives the best headlines results that you like the best. Childish giggling about "Spearman's wank" etc. optional.
It's not proper cold hard SCIENCE, but it would allow you to do a meaningful comparison of lights in terms of hard-to-quantify parameters like "side visibility at junctions" and "ability to stand out in traffic".
[1] Why yes, I did switch from Social Psychology to Computer Science after a year, how did you guess?
It's not science at all without a null hypothesis*.
That aside, if you set up a standardised scene that approximates road conditions (say in a carpark, next to a car and a ped in bright clothes), just replacing the light for each photo, I could run the Itti and Koch visual salience algorithm on them in Matlab, and rank them in terms of number of modelled eye saccades. That would smell** a bit more sciencey, at least.
*Experimental social psych can be as cold, hard and sciencey as you like. Guess who didn't switch from social psychology (and likes Popper more than Feyerabend when it comes to epistemology of science).
**My better half coined the phrase "smells of science" after getting lost in the chemistry dept when trying to find me in a psychlab block at the arse end of campus - I think it beautifully captures the conflation of the work associated with scientific enterprise in the natural sciences with scientific method.
-
What car do you have Roger?
-
A 1997 MX-5. The rating of the lamps* is governed by various ECE regulations, though, and should be the same for any car.
Taillamps are 5W
Main brake lamps, reversing lamps, indicators and foglight are all 21W
*except the third brake light, if fitted, which varies between 16W and 21W for a filament lamp, and is often LED anyway.
-
I used my raleigh astrum tonight & ended up changing it for my cateye ld1100. I used the astrum under my carradice with the cateye attached to it. I just thought the astrum was too bright, unless you can angle it slightly down I think they are a little too bright/dazzling :o
-
Having sat behind a BMW last night in my car and seeing the intensity of his lights, I feel nothing whatsoever about using a dinotte. I've yet to have a driver complain about my taillight being too bright, which slightly dismays me, but shows that it's not all that bright or all that annoying.
-
So when are we doing the rear light test? I can bring (looks at random assortment of lights within reach) a Radbot 1000, Smart Superflash, Blackburn Mars 4.0, Spanninga SBA, Vistalight 300 (5 LED), Cateye LD600, Cateye AU100 and a Brompton/Spanninga battery taillight.
-
I can do a CatEye LD1100, RSP Astrum, Dinotte 140R, Light & Motion Vis 180, and an Exposure Flare (with RCR123A rechargeable battery) if it ever arrives from the supplier.
(If also got some of the ones LittleWheelsandBig mentioned, but there doesn't seem any point in bringing those).
-
...and an Exposure Flare (with RCR123A rechargeable battery) if it ever arrives from the supplier.
This will not turn up for at least two weeks, although I've been promised it before... :-\
-
This will not turn up for at least two weeks, although I've been promised it before... :-\
I had a look at one of those recently. The single LED is nearly as bright as one Dinotte 400L LED, and doesn't have quite as wide a throw.
-
I'm actually getting it as an emergency spare for group rides, since it should be fittable on most people's bikes, without any special tools or problems (assuming somewhere on the seat tube is accessible, which I'll admit isn't always the case).
If it has a lower setting than full blast, this is more likely to be useful.
-
That gives us a couple of weeks to sort out a test procedure, location and date. I was thinking that casting the beam onto the inside of a cylinder segment (quarter circumference) would show beam width and intensity distribution. Along with Rogerzilla's suggestion of standing beside a car's taillights in a carpark would cover most bases.
-
The SEEKRIT BUNKER is at our disposal...
-
I could probably come along with my 400L.
-
That gives us a couple of weeks to sort out a test procedure, location and date. I was thinking that casting the beam onto the inside of a cylinder segment (quarter circumference) would show beam width and intensity distribution. Along with Rogerzilla's suggestion of standing beside a car's taillights in a carpark would cover most bases.
Good ideas, but I think an actual numeric measurement of light intensity at it's peak along the boresite, even if uncalibrated, just as a comparative value, would also be very useful.
Unfortunately I don't have any sort of light meter, or know where we can get a cheap one.
-
Oh arse:
Light And Motion Vis 180 Tail light (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=40666.0)
-
I'd be saying 'arse' too at £90 for a rear light.
-
I'm actually getting it as an emergency spare for group rides, since it should be fittable on most people's bikes, without any special tools or problems (assuming somewhere on the seat tube is accessible, which I'll admit isn't always the case).
If I were a good samaritan choosing that sort of light, I'd pick something with a very wide, non-directional illumination. That way, if you have to bodge some hideous attachment to their bag/rack/saddle/whatever it will still make them pretty safe.
[seat-post is useless with most rack-packs, likewise seat-stays if panniers are fitted]
-
I do wish there was more choice in AA powered rear lights.
I have AAs in my Hope front light, my Garmin Legend HCx, my Petzl head torch.... but all the small & lightweight rear lights are AAA, and it just seems a PITA to have to carry two sizes of spare battery.
I do have a Cateye LD-1100, but it seems awfully big & heavy for something which takes 2 AAs.
-
I do wish there was more choice in AA powered rear lights.
I have AAs in my Hope front light, my Garmin Legend HCx, my Petzl head torch.... but all the small & lightweight rear lights are AAA, and it just seems a PITA to have to carry two sizes of spare battery.
I do have a Cateye LD-1100, but it seems awfully big & heavy for something which takes 2 AAs.
I know what you mean, but i've stopped worrying about it. Because:
- Rears last (almost) forever. On any short ride, if they're OK when you set off, you'll be OK. On longer rides, carry spares or put fresh batts in.
- AAAs are much lighter. This is good. But also means that a spare light with 2xAAAs in it is no heavier than 2xAA batteries*. Plus you have a spare light - lights can fail even with full batts in them.
*I haven't checked this fact. But I'm pretty sure 2 x AAA-equipped lights weighs less than AA-equipped light + 2 spare batteries.
-
Oh arse:
Light And Motion Vis 180 Tail light (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=40666.0)
Oh come on, keep up, I already mentioned it back on Page 4 (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=25428.msg772144#msg772144). ;D
It's not a bad light, it's rather compact and light, and has a couple of nice "Throbbing" modes, like the Radbot.
It has a few downsides; The sliding approach to getting it on and off the clamp can make it difficult to fit somewhere useful, you essentially need twice it's length to be clear somewhere on your bike. The chunky rubber band arrangement seems to work OK, but why do they think someone fitting a £80 light can't use a screwdriver, which would give a much more solid and reliable mounting. The battery life isn't brilliant. On continuous it's about 4 hours (according to the spec) and up to 8 hours in flashing (but there are two flashing modes, one dimmer than the other, and which of them lasts 8 hours isn't clear). Not really enough for many night rides, at least not by itself.
Oh, and the "documentation" is pants, it's a handful of poorly designed ideograms on the packaging.
-
The SEEKRIT BUNKER is at our disposal...
Thanks, that is likely to be useful.
I'm just working out how to construct a suitable semi-cylindrical 'target' and still be able to transport it. There is a possibility that cardboard and duct tape may be involved.
-
OK, first draft at a test rig almost constructed. Imagine a pair of quilting hoops (18" dia) with a large piece of white cardboard between them, something like a parallel-sided wine barrel. The cardboard covers more than half the circumference, allowing a photo from behind and to the side of the tested taillight to show the beam pattern. The taillights will be mounted on a broomstick along the centreline of the quilting hoops.
Unfortunately I don't have a light meter either.
-
I have a light meter (Sekonic L-308BII) with a silicon photocell, so it is sensitive to red light.
I believe that this test is better done with a digicam set to a fixed manual exposure, because it's all about perception. We'll have to take a poll on the effectiveness of flash rates.
Oh, and we have to include the Wilko 3 LED FTW.
-
Oh, and we have to include the Wilko 3 LED FTW.
With both normal batteries and those of a state typically seen in the wild :)
-
The only rear light I run at the moment is a B&M 4DLite.
British Standard or Equivalent FTW. :thumbsup:
-
Oh, and we have to include the Wilko 3 LED FTW.
With both normal batteries and those of a state typically seen in the wild :)
Hang on, I'll put some cheap AA in a light and turn it on. It should be ready for testing in two or three weeks.
-
The Wilko 3 LED lamp is legendary. It's averagely bright but appears to be indestructible - it outlives all the expensive lamps you can think of. Mine has been scraped along the road in a couple of crashes (it clips to my courier bag as a backup light), has been slung in corners and generally abused, the lens is gouged but it still works perfectly.
-
WF-501B flashlight with a red led drop-in, $18. Mounted under a small saddle bag using a flashlight mount, all sourced from Dealextreme
Runs on 18650 Li-on battery, about 2 hrs run time
Diffuser is from a liquid detergent bottle, gives good side vision
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab123/Tincaman2/CIMG4694.jpg)
Video of the same
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jkeCOclVQQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jkeCOclVQQ)
Video of 1/2W Smart for comparison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PLnjiyAxl8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PLnjiyAxl8)
-
one of my 2 rsp astrums is draining it's battery's when switched off over a couple of days :'(. at the moment i just am putting battery's in it when i need to use it but it is a bit of a pain. do think if i spayed it with wd40 that might cure it ?. i am no good at electronics so anything more complex may be beyond me ::-) :)
-
Most unlikely. It would also make it eternally messy.
-
If I had to guess, most likely some water has got inside. I'd disassemble it as much as possible, which probably just means leaving the battery cover/compartment open, and then leave it somewhere warm and dry (like an airing cupboard) for a few days.
Mine has had the same batteries in it since I got it, and it's been upstairs unused for well over 6 months. I just checked the light, and it's as bright as ever.
-
thank's , i will try putting it opened up in the airing cupboard tonight and see what happens :thumbsup:
-
I just bought a cheap light meter off of eBay, and tried it out on some of my lights in my hall way (so only from around 1m to the lights).
The Light & Motion Vis 180 on full blast was about 30 lux, the Cateye TL-LD1100 with both banks on constant was about 50 lux, and the Dinotte 140R was 50, 100 & 200 lux in each of it's progressively bright constant modes.
It was interesting to see that the TL-LD1100 was about the same as the Dinotte on it's lowest setting, since this was what I had previously determined by comparing them on the bike, and it's good to see that my visual calibration is OK!
(The Cateye does however throw more light off to the sides than the Dinotte does in that low brightness mode, but the Dinotte can throw an awful lot more light out if you switch it to it's highest mode).
-
My Dinotte on flash/steady, ignoring the action from this video and looking just at the light intensity:
YouTube
- Lane Change Part 2
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEQ7iwmX1DA)
It's obvious there's no problem with it being too bright, IMO.
-
To be fair, every light mentioned in this topic would be BS-legal if you cracked them open and removed the steady light function (since flashing only lights are legal over a certain - extremely dim - brightness). Obtusely only the fact that the light can be that bright constantly, rather than intermittently, makes them illegal as sole illumination.
Whether to worry about it or not is another question. Hardly anyone I see has pedal reflectors and many that do are illegal anyway because they are partly obscured by panniers.
It would be much better if we had an American-style legal test, i.e. that the bike must be fitted with lights front and rear which are clearly visible from X yards. That's easily tested by everyone, and it also takes care of lights with run-down batteries (strangely, if you have approved lights, so long as they're lit up, you're legal).
-
It would be much better if we had an American-style legal test, i.e. that the bike must be fitted with lights front and rear which are clearly visible from X yards.
You can see a Dinotte from at least 3 miles away, so it should pass. ;D
-
It's interesting that PBP organisers feel the need to put an extra qualification on lighting requirements - over and above meeting the French road laws, it should "allow you to "be seen" 100m ahead and 150m behind". :facepalm:
-
My Dinotte on flash/steady, ignoring the action from this video and looking just at the light intensity:
YouTube
- Lane Change Part 2
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEQ7iwmX1DA)
It's obvious there's no problem with it being too bright, IMO.
Are you serious? It's so bright, London is lit upto daylight levels!!!
-
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Could you spell it out please?
-
Well as you asked nicely:
I thought the main discussion was about using lights at night. Your video appears to be daytime-based. I wasn't sure what the relevance was, hence attempt at humour ...
-
Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining. I'm not sure the ambient lighting has a lot of relevance, it's the direct comparison of dinotte with the visible brake lights that matters for me.
-
My Dinotte on flash/steady, ignoring the action from this video and looking just at the light intensity:
YouTube
- Lane Change Part 2
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEQ7iwmX1DA)
It's obvious there's no problem with it being too bright, IMO.
What about the problem to people's retinas?
I can appreciate the worth of a super powerful rear light on fast dual carriageways or in the fog, but on ordinary roads in ordinary weather conditions: I find them very offensive, as a cyclist behind one.
-
What about the problem to people's retinas?
I can appreciate the worth of a super powerful rear light on fast dual carriageways or in the fog, but on ordinary roads in ordinary weather conditions: I find them very offensive, as a cyclist behind one.
They're only a problem when at cyclist-close distances. No tailgaiting, and no problem. Yes, I accept that if riding in a group, it's probably better to dim the lights because we draft. I wouldn't want to be that close behind a car brake light either, it's similarly uncomfortable to the eye.
-
I don't agree. I find the brightest rear cycle lights a problem at a decent safe following distance as well, and particularly outrageous when stopped behind someone at a junction or in traffic. I shouldn't have to keep back tens of yards then. Despite being smaller, they're more intense than car brake lights - seriously worse for my eyes and mind.
It's seems odd that generally so much is being made of being respectful to fellow road users and setting a good example - but all that goes out the window when it comes to lights.
-
One thing's certain, there's also an excess of self-flagellation, or flagellation of other cyclists about this. I don't recall even a single driver complaining, and during Sunday's London CC ride, none of the other cyclists seemed at all bothered (I'll go and ask them though).
As for the keeping of tens of yards back, that's *exactly* what I want drivers doing when following me through a pinch point FTW.
-
There are a lot of issues like this where it's difficult to weigh-up an individuals needs (in this case, safety) against the effect on everybody else (in this case, other road users). I find the best way to asses the pros and cons is to ask:
What if everybody did this?
-
Maybe cyclists are too shy to complain, because we can't get near enough to complain without shouting :)
Ok, perhaps I too would risk pissing people off with the brightest lights I could get if I felt I needed them. I just don't though, on normal roads & conditions at least.
-
Aaaahaahahahaha, you're not srsly suggesting that motorists are too shy to complain? ;D ;D
-
I bet they complain, you just can't tell what they're complaining about :) "Beep beep blurrraagh". We all get the beep beeps.
I'm complaining anyway. The latest generation of super powerful lights bother my retinas. Sometimes I haven't even got the choice when they overtake and stop right in front of me.
-
The bright light of a Dinotte may well save Wendy's life. That's probably more important
than upsetting a few people because they think it's too bright.
-
I know also have a 3w cree headtorch :D
-
The bright light of a Dinotte may well save Wendy's life.
I wouldn't complain if I believed that.
-
The bright light of a Dinotte may well save Wendy's life.
I wouldn't complain if I believed that.
As long as the person with the uber bright light thinks it may save their life, then the
opinion of others as to whether it's too bright doesn't matter.
-
That opinion is why I avoid riding anywhere near one occasional Audaxer.
-
As long as the person with the uber bright light thinks it may save their life, then the
opinion of others as to whether it's too bright doesn't matter.
Until the lights get banned when they're so bright that many people's eyesight is damaged. It's got to stop somewhere. Meanwhile I think it's worth thinking again if a super bright rear light is really going to save your life on an ordinary road, bearing in mind all factors, including risk compensation.
-
There's another reason why cyclists are more likely to dislike bright rear lights than car drivers: since drivers have so much more front light available, their nightvision is going to be compromised by that already.
Audaxers might be on the other end of that spectrum with relatively poor cycle front lights, dark roads and long hours. What's more, given that car brake lights aren't going to be around for more than seconds at a time, no wonder they dislike bright rear lights.
I often enjoy chatting with drivers at the lights, so if there was a real problem, at least one would have raised it by now. People's eyesight getting damaged? That's beyond unrealistic at this stage. Let's back away from the excessive polarisation of this debate.
-
Also the light from car headlights means the cycle light appears less contrasty to the driver than a cyclist.
I don't know if eyesight damage is unrealistic. That is my main concern, especially when one of these lights is parked right in front of me.
-
I don't know if eyesight damage is unrealistic. That is my main concern, especially when one of these lights is parked right in front of me.
There is no significant risk of eyesight damage from these lights, the level of light coming from them, at worse, is barely brighter than sunlight. If there was an issue, we'd have lots of blind light engineers from the TV, Film, and Theatre industries wandering about. If nothing else you'd close your eyes pretty damned fast if it was that bright.
They're not lasers, the light isn't coherent, and they're not as finely focused.
-
Some comments from riding behind me in daylight:
it was fine imo. Not blinding me, i could comfortably ride behind you.
It was fine Mike. Set at a good angle as to not be an irritant.
And you can see from the bus vid that I am close behind you with the light reflecting off my jacket... but it wasn't in my eye's.
-
Audaxers might be on the other end of that spectrum with relatively poor cycle front lights, dark roads and long hours. What's more, given that car brake lights aren't going to be around for more than seconds at a time, no wonder they dislike bright rear lights.
This particular Audaxer uses excessively bright flashing lights front and rear in daylight when riding in the middle of large bunches. When asked to swap his lights to steady mode (not asked to switch them off), he looks at you as if you offered to rape his dog. I halved my riding speed until he was a kilometre or so up the road so as not to audibly swear.
On another occasion when we were slowly catching him on the road near dusk, I was happy he stopped for a time allowing us to get in front quickly. Some riders' epilepsy can be triggered by bright flashing lights.
-
Even if not yet proven as permanently damaging, I can feel my eyes straining, and there's an impression on my retinas left for a while after I have looked away. It can't be healthy.
I'm referring to cylists using super-bright lights at night on urban ordinary roads, not pointing down.
-
Absolutely LWaB, I'd turn mine to low constant in that situation.
Strobe mode on the dinotte is particularly unkind if you're near it, not from the brightness so much as the flash pattern, five quick flashes and a pause, repeated. The on constant low plus even flash once or twice per second mode is much more friendly.
-
There is no significant risk of eyesight damage from these lights, the level of light coming from them, at worse, is barely brighter than sunlight.
But the iris is much wider open than it would be in sunlight.
-
Usually when I'm riding an event and there is a bright flashing rear light ahead I catch them and mention that it is a bloody nuisance ( in the nicest possible way ) Usually this fact is met by indifference but by they are behind me
I remember doing the Brevet Cymru a few years ago and on that last climb there was someone just ahead strobing away like a nail in my head. I couldn't catch them and I didn't want to stop/ slow up because I was in a bad way and needed to finish
-
Audax type riding is a special case though. It's not normal commuting, where super bright LEDs are perfect for use.
-
Usually when I'm riding an event and there is a bright flashing rear light ahead I catch them and mention that it is a bloody nuisance ( in the nicest possible way ) Usually this fact is met by indifference but by they are behind me
I ride with an additional relatively dim cheapy on steady - and will always turn off the bright "flasher" if requested. Unfortunately not everyone requests (politely or otherwise).
I remember doing the Brevet Cymru a few years ago and on that last climb there was someone just ahead strobing away like a nail in my head. I couldn't catch them and I didn't want to stop/ slow up because I was in a bad way and needed to finish
It wasnt me - you'd have caught me easily (had I been there)
-
I don't see a huge issue. If somebody's lights are bothering you on an audax, either overtake them or wait 30 seconds. That said, if I'm likely to have other riders near me, I'll switch my frikkin lasers to constant
-
As long as the person with the uber bright light thinks it may save their life, then the
opinion of others as to whether it's too bright doesn't matter.
Until the lights get banned .........
Who's going to ban them then?
-
There was a small crowd on the last FNRttC who had eye-meltingly bright rear blinkers, despite the standard request on these rides to tone rear lights down. It was certainly an incentive to keep ahead of them, but that didn't make it any less antisocial.
-
If I am in a group I put my Dinotte on dim, if on my own it is on flash or blink.
It always points down.
-
As long as the person with the uber bright light thinks it may save their life, then the opinion of others as to whether it's too bright doesn't matter.
Bollox.
If that line of logic was valid, it would justify a lot of things that you don't want to have on your street:
Humvees, bull-bars, knives, pitbulls ... [3W headtorches - for pedestrians?]
n.b. the bold text is critical here.
-
Some comments from riding behind me in daylight:
it was fine imo. Not blinding me, i could comfortably ride behind you.
... x N ...
[ I shall avoid the observation that posts from your mates are hardly admissible evidence ;) ]
There is a big difference between daylight and night. I've seen flashing lights in daylight that were too much, but they're very rare [imagine if all road-users bought ex-police flashing blue lights]. It's a bit like daytime-running-lights on cars - they're not a good thing, but they're not a big problem to other road-users.
The light in Wendy's video is probably fine in daylight - angling it up might have tipped the balance, I couldn't say without seeing it.
-
Actually (on solo rides) flashing lights in daylight are very useful in certain conditions - like heavily shadowed areas on a sunny day, etc. Certainly more visible than hi-vis which just adds to the confusion.
-
Waaaay too much hand wringing on this topic, really.
It seems to me that most peoples' biggest problem with super bright LEDs is flashing modes. On constant doesn't seem to be such a problem, implying that it's the flashing that hurts.
-
If my flashing lights become a problem for you, mattc, I will give up audaxing
-
One other point is that my dinotte is not angled well in the way Ian thought it was. It's actually aimed directly at car driver eye level, not that that makes a massive difference as it has such a good diffuser on it that there's a large even spread of light from it. It's enough to leave a bright red pool of light on the road behind me, and still light up road signs high above me from relatively close by.
-
If my flashing lights become a problem for you, mattc, I will give up audaxing
Every cloud has a silver lining. ;)
-
Waaaay too much hand wringing on this topic, really.
It seems to me that most peoples' biggest problem with super bright LEDs is flashing modes. On constant doesn't seem to be such a problem, implying that it's the flashing that hurts.
Flashing is certainly worse, but the brightest ones hurt my eyes on constant mode as well when parked right in front of me. It's the nature of inner-city cycling that cyclists end up close together, even when not out of choice, particularly at junctions and queues. Out of town, it's not so much of an issue.
-
One other point is that my dinotte is not angled well in the way Ian thought it was. It's actually aimed directly at car driver eye level.
Personally, I think this is provocative. Dinottes are designed to do the pool of light thing, not distract following vehicles by shining directly in their eyes.
-
It seems to me that most peoples' biggest problem with super bright LEDs is flashing modes. On constant doesn't seem to be such a problem, implying that it's the flashing that hurts.
Flashing is indeed the bigger problem.
not that that makes a massive difference as it [Dinotte] has such a good diffuser on it that there's a large even spread of light from it.
[I think I said some pages ago that] an even+wide spread of light can probably redeem very bright lights. Some 'medium' lights have a very tight beam, so riding behind them (particularly wobbly riders) is almost as bad as following a flasher! I once got stuck behind a commuter who honked everywhere, thus creating the dreaded searchlight effect. Horrible behind him, horrible in front. It was on an NCN, so I really needed to be able to see the ground in front of me ::-)
[BTW what is the point of the irregular flashing and various disco patterns? More chance of a motorist failing to see you entirely, and much more confusing for the brain attempting to judge velocity vectors and hence your likely position at an impending point of conflict. They should have been made illegal at birth! ]
-
If my flashing lights become a problem for you, mattc, I will give up audaxing
Every cloud has a silver lining. ;)
;)
-
For the benefit of anyone coming new to this debate - or googling a particular model of light and happening upon YACF - could we have a consensus on which lights - in which modes - fall into which categories?
I propose
Ludicrous - ie thoroughly unpleasant to follow for even a brief period on a commute
Maybe some of the Dinottes fall into this category?
Plain Antisocial - unpleasant to follow on Audax or FNRttC
Does the ubiquitous Smart 1/2 watt on flash fall into this category ?
Acceptably bright - you'd probably rather it was dimmer if following for any period, but not "painful"
Smart 1/2 watt on constant ? LD-1100 with one half constant, other on flash?
And so on down the scale...
Obviously it all depends on the angle (whether by mounting or by riding style as mattc says) .. and keep it just about perception to a following cyclist... ?
-
There is such a thing as a strategic use of bright lights.
Sooner or later mattc will get the hint :demon:
-
Personally, I think this is provocative. Dinottes are designed to do the pool of light thing, not distract following vehicles by shining directly in their eyes.
I think we did this before - that's only in your opinion.
-
It is also the opinion if Dinotte. ;)
(which I wilfully ignore)
-
It is also the opinion if Dinotte. ;)
(which I wilfully ignore)
ISTR Jaded said it was in the manual. It might once have been, but it's not in the 400L manual I got with mine. I suspect that's because they've got a better diffuser now. Perhaps it's partly also the 2 x 3W LEDs, and the combination means you can get plenty of light shining back towards drivers, as well as a big pool of light on the road behind you.
-
I think the original seatpost mounting method of the 140r makes it very hard to have the light pointing anywhere other than towards the ground. With the mount the released a while later, or with your own bodge, you can point it where you want.
The diffusers on the 400r are different. They do diffuse the light, but it is so powerful it's almost academic. When Dinotte released the now defunct 600l, if you dug around on their website, you could find a tail version :o
-
I've seen some photos of Leftpondian bikes and trikes with a several of Dinotte 400L red tail lights, and at least two yellow ones as well. :o
-
BTW what is the point of the irregular flashing and various disco patterns? More chance of a motorist failing to see you entirely, and much more confusing for the brain attempting to judge velocity vectors and hence your likely position at an impending point of conflict.
Can you point us to the researched evidence to prove this? ;)
-
evidence for this:
and much more confusing for the brain attempting to judge velocity vectors and hence your likely position
?
Studies certainly exist - they're probably mentioned earlier in the thread. Hardly surprising if you picture the different types of light.
-
Flashing red light=bicycle, potentially quite close.
Solid red light could be a moped a mile or two up the road
-
It might also be the cocoon effect, I never realise how bright my lights actually are. I usually meet up with my gf en route and comment on peoples lights "oooh that's bright I want it" to which she replies "Sam, it's positively dim compared to what you've got". I never sort of realise it until I someone else with the same in which case I'm like fuck me. My taillights aimed down, then there it's plenty bright enough to command attention from drivers, the front is angled every so slightly down. Ie it'll hit the wing mirrors and light up the inside of the car but it won't be annoying in the rear view so much. But I do agree with Jaded in that such lights can be provocative.
-
evidence for this:
and much more confusing for the brain attempting to judge velocity vectors and hence your likely position
?
Studies certainly exist - they're probably mentioned earlier in the thread.
They're probably not. ;)
Flashing red light=bicycle, potentially quite close
Flashing red light=bicycle, probably travelling less than 30mph, if in car, adjust speed
accordingly when overtaking them, and ffs don't crash into them.
-
I think some people are missing the fact that Matt was condemning irregular patterns in flashing lights, not simple regular patterns. It was an aside, not part of his main argument.
It shouldn't take much thought to work out why an irregular flash pattern, in dark conditions, could confuse somebody behind you about the speed of your lateral movement.
-
BTW what is the point of the irregular flashing and various disco patterns? More chance of a motorist failing to see you entirely, and much more confusing for the brain attempting to judge velocity vectors and hence your likely position at an impending point of conflict.
Can you point us to the researched evidence to prove this? ;)
This isn't a court of law - I feel no obligation to produce citations for you.
What will be the reward for me finding this research? Will you concede the debate? How about a decent sized wager, sir? (proceeds to CDF)
-
I think you need to preface your opinion with the words 'it is only my opinion but..'
By the way, I disagree with your opinion.
-
The first Googled website I found was Visual Expert Human Factors: Is The Moth Effect Real? (http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/motheffect.html) I'm not sure if the specific conclusions apply when riding on the LH side of the road.
-
I once had a home-brewed 12 vole system in which the rear light was a 24-LED car brake light.
-
Flashing red light=bicycle, potentially quite close.
Solid red light could be a moped a mile or two up the road
I am certainly convinced by the argument that in drivers' minds flashing-light=bicycle [haven't seen any research though ... ]
The trouble here is that you are focusing on the scenario of being overtaken on an otherwise empty road. that's not how most accidents happen. most accidents are at junctions, and are usually due to a combination of factors.
e.g. (real anecdata alert:) the only rear end collision I have been near was due to a vehicle overtaking a slower car, not realising there was a bike ahead (or so the driver claimed).
Drivers are usually evaluating a number of data inputs. They may not look at the cyclist they are going to hit for very long. there may be other red lights in their vision.
So here's my conclusion: the evidence exists that flashing lights make motion prediction harder (I didn't make this up). What hasn't been proven is whether this causes more risk to cyclists than the (possible) benefits of flashing lights signalling the presence of a cyclist.
Currently my opinion is that best practice may depend on conditions. in daylight flashers on bikes are probably a good thing. If you're riding on unlit rural roads with NO other cyclists - yup, possibly good, due to more drivers noticing you.
Riding in a group? Definite no-no.
Riding in urban areas, with other cyclists about? Probably a bad thing.
I'm sure we could concoct a number of other grey areas.
An experiment you could do is to spend 3 hours at a (nightime) Audax control, then try overtaking the field again; at some point you may encounter a group of riders with flashing lights on an unlit section. Tell me if their numbers and positions would be easier to assess with steady lights.
(I still can't believe anyone thinks the irregular flashers are a good idea.)
-
I once had a home-brewed 12 vole system in which the rear light was a 24-LED car brake light.
One hamster in a wheel is sufficient enough here.
'tis a tradition on the uk.rec.waterways newsfroup to speak of voles and ants...
-
Flashing - more easily spotted - CSA (http://md1.csa.com/partners/viewrecord.php?requester=gs&collection=TRD&recid=N7612727AH&q=flashing+versus+steady+conspicuity&uid=&setcookie=yes)
Brightness doesn't effect distance estimations - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VN8-4FM01N5-1&_user=1495569&_coverDate=01%2F01%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1565929602&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000053194&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=1495569&md5=12677f11e3e306540e91c799a5a60cc1&searchtype=a
I don't think flashing and distance estimation has been examined - my colleague in the area suggests flashers are worse, but the amount of time the target is available effects distance estimation, and he thinks flashing is the same as having less time.
-
I used to run one of each on my commute - my own observation was that the older slow-flashing LEDS alone gave a weird effect of discontinuous movement. So, one steady for position indicating, one flashy for getting noticed. The fast-flashing ones don't seem to have that drawback, and if were only to use one then (except in company) it would be flashy.
-
I still can't believe anyone thinks the irregular flashers are a good idea.
Based on observation of the Cateye LD600, which I imagine to be typical of its type, regular flashing involves all 5 (or however many it is) LEDs switching on and off together, while the random flash only has one LED illuminated at any one time. So it is 1/5 of the brightness. Not a good idea.
My impression, based on when I as a driver encounter cyclists with flashing rear lights, is that the distance to the cyclist is harder to judge. Of course, that shouldn't matter. But as a cyclist I prefer not to rely on being right, as I have found that to be a non-viable safety policy. If I use a flasher (which is not very often) it is always in conjunction with a continuous light.
-
I saw a chap tonight with a very strange flasher -
YouTube
- Bad angle and flashing pattern light
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgviWRjznog)
I'm not sure what his tactic is, but mounting a touch on that flash setting to your top tube is a very bad idea. It's only going to shine in peoples eyes, be them drivers, cyclists or pedestrians.
The problem there isn't the brightness, as my light is at least 3x as bright, but it's the angle and the flash setting, if he angled it down a bit and changed the flash setting it would be fine.
-
I saw a chap tonight with a very strange flasher -
YouTube
- Bad angle and flashing pattern light
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgviWRjznog)
Yegods!
I overtook someone on the Dun Run in 2009 using something similar as their only source of light. While that's annoying under street lighting, it really is something else on a dark country lane. Madness.
Out of interest, what's the camera? It's doing a rather good job given the lighting conditions...
-
I saw a chap tonight with a very strange flasher -
YouTube
- Bad angle and flashing pattern light
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgviWRjznog)
Yegods!
I overtook someone on the Dun Run in 2009 using something similar as their only source of light. While that's annoying under street lighting, it really is something else on a dark country lane. Madness.
Out of interest, what's the camera? It's doing a rather good job given the lighting conditions...
Both ContourHD's. One 1080p the other 720p
-
I saw a chap tonight with a very strange flasher -
YouTube
- Bad angle and flashing pattern light
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgviWRjznog)
I'm not sure what his tactic is, but mounting a touch on that flash setting to your top tube is a very bad idea. It's only going to shine in peoples eyes, be them drivers, cyclists or pedestrians.
The problem there isn't the brightness, as my light is at least 3x as bright, but it's the angle and the flash setting, if he angled it down a bit and changed the flash setting it would be fine.
He could probably be done under the provision that lighting must not cause undue dazzle or discomfort to other users of the road.
-
Wow, everyone's so close to the buses! Guess that's a london thing - just makes me glad I neither live there nor drive a bus! Having said that, I'm sure I sometimes was as close to buses in Bangalore.
-
Wipe your forhead after a short ride in London and it's black with soot from buses and taxis. That's in our lungs as well :(
-
I first noticed that when I was a student in London & got a cold. Black residue on tissues after blowing nose. :sick:
-
Black snot in London is one of those things that makes Britain great...
-
It's called humour, Mike ::-)
;D
-
I've lived, and cycle commuted, in London for years and never had black snot, even the days I used to commute across London on a deep underground lines (albeit the Victoria line not the Northern Line).
-
I used to get black snot when I commuted on the underground. That was when I lived in Streatham, and would walk to Brixton to get on the Victoria Line.
Since I've been in Croydon, and use a mixture of Tram and the District line from Wimbledon (when not cycling), I haven't noticeably had black snot.
So, either the District line is black stuff free, or that fact that most of my journey is above the ground on that line (vs entirely underground when I used the Victoria line) makes a difference, or possibly the trains use less grubby brakes these days.
Back on-topic. I just got an Exposure Flare rear lights (to carry as a spare on group rides), and it's impressively bright for such a tiny unit.
I'll use the light meter on it tonight, when the ambient conditions are dim enough not to interfere, and see how bright it is compared to a Cateye TL-LD1100, Dinotte 140R and L&M Vis 180.