Author Topic: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?  (Read 23782 times)

Biggsy

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #100 on: 04 August, 2011, 11:30:51 pm »
In secondary, 50 steer round you successfully, 50 graze you with their mirrors, making you wobble and fall.

WRONG.  You seem to be assuming that secondary is never in line with anything right of the wing mirror.  Please see Reply #98.
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #101 on: 04 August, 2011, 11:35:35 pm »
Eh? If you're riding in line with a car's left headlight, why can't some steer round you and some fail to do so?

Ok, I see what you're thinking. I guess what I wrote was slightly ambiguous. The key word is "successfully". They all steer, but some are so dozy they only notice you too late to steer enough.
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Biggsy

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #102 on: 04 August, 2011, 11:37:38 pm »
Watch cars in front of you in a typical inside lane (ie not especially wide).  Where are they usually driving?  Where you will be in a few seconds when you're in SECONDARY position.  Where you will be seriously injured or killed if they don't see you when they're doing 30mph, let alone 60.
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #103 on: 04 August, 2011, 11:39:19 pm »
For the record, in line with cars' kerb-side wheel tracks is my usual riding position, certainly in Poland - it's especially obvious there due to the indentations often caused by soft tar and overloaded lorries.
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Biggsy

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #104 on: 04 August, 2011, 11:46:11 pm »
Just to finish clarifying my point (in case anyone else doesn't get it):

The only reasons I don't use primary all the time is because I don't want to be selfish all the time, and because it may encourage someone to hit me deliberately if I carry on for too long.  Otherwise I would use it all the time.
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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #105 on: 04 August, 2011, 11:52:28 pm »
Severity vs likelihood. When 100 dopey drivers pass you:

In gutter, nothing happens. You then go over the bars when your front wheel gets swallowed in a drain.

In secondary, 50 steer round you successfully, 50 graze you with their mirrors, making you wobble and fall.  Perhaps 1 in 10,000 will graze your arm with a mirror.

In primary, 99 slow down and wait, 1 ploughs into you at 60mph.  More like 1 in 10,000,000 might plough into you.

we're faced with this type of choice all the time, not just on the roads.

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #106 on: 05 August, 2011, 09:22:03 am »
The only reasons I don't use primary all the time is because I don't want to be selfish all the time, and because it may encourage someone to hit me deliberately if I carry on for too long.  Otherwise I would use it all the time.

For myself, my default position is to ride just to the right of the middle of the lane, around the right tyre track. In the ideal world I would do this 100% of the time.

In reality I modify this position based on a variety of factors. For instance, if I see a vehicle behind me and I'm on a normal sort of two lane road, I move left to the point that it still isn't possible to overtake without using the oncoming lane. This 'shows willing' (although it doesn't actually help the motorist to pass). On a road with steady traffic the implication is that I ride here almost all of the time, which is true.

If there is a solid stream of oncoming traffic such that I'm going to be blocking the car(s) behind for too long (a subjective judgement based on how long I think their patience with being safe and responsible will last) I then look for a place to pull over to let them past. I see this is a good exchange for blocking them when I'm moving.

I think 1:10,000 and 1:10,000,000 are still gross exaggerations BTW. I'm sure that on a long audax something like a thousand vehicles must overtake me (so between a field of 30, that's 30,000 passes). I've never been on an audax where someone was clipped by a car.

mattc

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #107 on: 05 August, 2011, 09:43:02 am »
If there is a solid stream of oncoming traffic such that I'm going to be blocking the car(s) behind for too long (a subjective judgement based on how long I think their patience with being safe and responsible will last) I then look for a place to pull over to let them past. I see this is a good exchange for blocking them when I'm moving.

Sounds entirely sensible to me. It's pretty much what caravanners are expected to do.

Motorists don't moan about how caravanistes should drive in the gutter, allowing motor vehicles to overtake without slowing down.
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

AndyK

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #108 on: 05 August, 2011, 09:51:13 am »

Motorists don't moan about how caravanistes should drive in the gutter, allowing motor vehicles to overtake without slowing down.

Is this sarcasm?  ;D

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #109 on: 05 August, 2011, 10:06:34 am »

Motorists don't moan about how caravanistes should drive in the gutter, allowing motor vehicles to overtake without slowing down.

Is this sarcasm?  ;D
I hope so.

mattc

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #110 on: 05 August, 2011, 10:35:07 am »

Motorists don't moan about how caravanistes should drive in the gutter, allowing motor vehicles to overtake without slowing down.

Is this sarcasm?  ;D
Well motorists don't expect them to drive in the gutter, do they?

(I'm not sure sarcasm is the right word - like 'irony', people seem to apply many different meanings. )
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #111 on: 05 August, 2011, 11:23:44 am »

Motorists don't moan about how caravanistes should drive in the gutter, allowing motor vehicles to overtake without slowing down.

Indeed they don't.

They just prefer that caravanistes aren't on the road, full stop. ;)
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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #112 on: 08 August, 2011, 09:19:11 am »
Here's one very good reason for taking the lane, even the bus lane:

http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=50481.0
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mattc

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #113 on: 08 August, 2011, 10:53:27 am »
A friend and member of our club commitee was in the papers this week, knocked off by a bus. Grazes/bruises only, but could have been much worse.

The bus caught the end of his flat-bars while overtaking on a narrow road (barely 2-lane), having waited behind for about 1/4 mile.

Clearly the driver was attempting to overtake without contact, but misjudged it. Had Jon ridden further out, I very much doubt he would have been injured.
Has never ridden RAAM
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Martin

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #114 on: 08 August, 2011, 12:07:34 pm »
he could have stopped and let the bus past;

I do the same on very narrow lanes where drivers have patiently waited behind me for a few hundred yeards

AndyK

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #115 on: 08 August, 2011, 12:10:55 pm »
he could have stopped and let the bus past;

I do the same on very narrow lanes where drivers have patiently waited behind me for a few hundred yeards

He could have. Personally I think the world would be a better place if all cyclists took the lane at all times. Then we wouldn't be living in a society that believes faster always takes priority and all others must get out of the way.

Martin

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #116 on: 08 August, 2011, 12:18:29 pm »
I don't; it's about sharing the road and avoiding unneccessary conflict. Next time you take the lane and wind up a driver who would like to be able to drive at more than cycling speed (espcially uphill) spare athought for the next cyclist he meets...

Jaded

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #117 on: 08 August, 2011, 12:21:37 pm »
And conversely, next time a cyclist meekly lets the more powerful members of society bulldoze past, think of the next cyclist he meets after that subservient, cap-doffing behaviour.
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Regulator

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #118 on: 08 August, 2011, 12:25:25 pm »
I don't; it's about sharing the road and avoiding unneccessary conflict. Next time you take the lane and wind up a driver who would like to be able to drive at more than cycling speed (espcially uphill) spare athought for the next cyclist he meets...

I would tend to agree.  If it's a bus and it's been stuck behind me for a while, then I tend to let them past.  I like to encourage people on public transport.

If it's somebody on their own in their WankPanzer then sod 'em...  :demon:
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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #119 on: 08 August, 2011, 12:25:52 pm »
he could have stopped and let the bus past;

I do the same on very narrow lanes where drivers have patiently waited behind me for a few hundred yeards

Not knowing the specific situation mattc refers to, I can only comment generally.  Pulling in to make it easy for a driver to pass is considered excellent Cyclecraft in the appropriate situation.  Here's an example - and it's the sort of thing I imagine the majority of yacfers would do.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/CYYBiB6oCSY&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/CYYBiB6oCSY&rel=1</a>

Taking the lane when needed, and also pulling left to allow traffic past when appropriate and safe is all good riding.  Still so against Cyclecraft, Martin?
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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #120 on: 08 August, 2011, 12:28:38 pm »
And conversely, next time a cyclist meekly lets the more powerful members of society bulldoze past, think of the next cyclist he meets after that subservient, cap-doffing behaviour.

That's a fair point.  I think that perhaps being assertive where necessary, and yet making it easy for drivers to pass when it's safe to do so, should negate this.  I'm thinking about situations where it's obvious you're taking the lane, and then also obvious that once the hazard is passed you're also taking the driver's wishes into consideration.  What do you think?
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mattc

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #121 on: 08 August, 2011, 12:34:19 pm »
he could have stopped and let the bus past;

I do the same on very narrow lanes where drivers have patiently waited behind me for a few hundred yeards

Not knowing the specific situation mattc refers to, I can only comment generally.  Pulling in to make it easy for a driver to pass is considered excellent Cyclecraft in the appropriate situation.
Yes - and the appropriate situation was 100m further down the road, exiting the village; where the road widens considerably and becomes national speed limit!
I've driven through that village - it's very rare to manage 30mph safely except with no other traffic/pedestrians about.

Nevertheless, I find it educational that the driver did not deliberately attack the rider with his bus, despite his immense frustration at this selfish slow road-user.

[Aside; I'm much more generous to buses than Wankpanzers etc too - but that doesn't equate to leaping onto the pavement as soon as they approach.]
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

AndyK

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #122 on: 08 August, 2011, 12:35:23 pm »
I don't; it's about sharing the road and avoiding unneccessary conflict. Next time you take the lane and wind up a driver who would like to be able to drive at more than cycling speed (espcially uphill) spare athought for the next cyclist he meets...

Kow-towing to cars is not 'sharing' the road. It's giving up the road.

Biggsy

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #123 on: 08 August, 2011, 12:57:59 pm »
The only way I can imagine it to be safe NEVER to take the lane (on a typical mixture of roads) is to often pull over to stop and wait for a safe opportunity to continue in the 'secondary' position.  That would be selfless to an unreasonable extent.  That would be all give rather than give and take.

If you never do that, and never take the lane, then you are risking your life.  As already mentioned many times, you have to find a balance between being assertive and defensive.  You can judge the risks as you do it.
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Jaded

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #124 on: 08 August, 2011, 01:02:16 pm »
And conversely, next time a cyclist meekly lets the more powerful members of society bulldoze past, think of the next cyclist he meets after that subservient, cap-doffing behaviour.

That's a fair point.  I think that perhaps being assertive where necessary, and yet making it easy for drivers to pass when it's safe to do so, should negate this.  I'm thinking about situations where it's obvious you're taking the lane, and then also obvious that once the hazard is passed you're also taking the driver's wishes into consideration.  What do you think?

Yes, that's what I think. Then a cheery wave to say thanks for waiting. Just like a passing place road.
It is simpler than it looks.