Author Topic: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?  (Read 23718 times)

Martin

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #150 on: 08 August, 2011, 11:17:12 pm »
Ah, you mustn't cycle at all then
aw you got me sussed; I am as was suggested just a Top Gear troll..

Did you see my comments about your suggested riding being very good Cyclecraft?  Is that fair comment?

Mikey; my suggested riding might well be good Cyclecraft; it also might be just common sense and experience. I confess I'm not a book person and have never read Cyclecraft; I've just had it rammed down my throat by several years of cycle forums. But when I read something that sounds like bollocks (ie riding in the same position in the road as the driver of a RHD car unless I've got it wrong) I reserve the right to call it bollocks; that's all.

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #151 on: 08 August, 2011, 11:45:24 pm »
I don't; it's about sharing the road and avoiding unneccessary conflict. Next time you take the lane and wind up a driver who would like to be able to drive at more than cycling speed (espcially uphill) spare athought for the next cyclist he meets...

Kow-towing to cars is not 'sharing' the road. It's giving up the road.

out of interest; who pays for that road?

Are you a Top Gear cager trolling the forum? Did you seriously just say that? Everyone pays for the roads, regardless of whether they own cars, bicycles, or whatever.

Not only that, but most roads were Tarmac'd at the insistence of cyclists (at that time mostly middle class or aristocratic) in the late 19th century.
Actually cyclists were probably happy without tarred roads. The existing system of MacAdamised roads still works well enought on the Channel Island of Sark, which has no cars.

Tarring was introduced because car users were causing a problem for others due to the dust clouds they created. That was a 20th century issue. The excise duty that was then levied on cars was simply to pay for the work needed to tar the highways to stop a serious nuisance that the car drivers caused.

I wish we could find some equally appropriate solutions to the other nuisances that car usage causes in the 21st century.

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #152 on: 08 August, 2011, 11:56:16 pm »
Mikey; my suggested riding might well be good Cyclecraft; it also might be just common sense and experience. I confess I'm not a book person and have never read Cyclecraft; I've just had it rammed down my throat by several years of cycle forums. But when I read something that sounds like bollocks (ie riding in the same position in the road as the driver of a RHD car unless I've got it wrong) I reserve the right to call it bollocks; that's all.

Phew, I was beginning to think I'd annoyed you and you put me on your ignore list.  If you've not read cyclecraft, then it's easy to get the wrong perception.  Cyclecraft is acknowledged by all the experts, published by the govt. stationery office and recommended by RoSPA.

So a different question - do you never take the lane, or occasionally?  What about when turning right?  Do you wait for a space at the nearside before crossing the road?
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Martin

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #153 on: 08 August, 2011, 11:59:51 pm »
when turning right I use what was taught me in my Cycling Proficiency 40 years ago; look behind, wait for a safe gap in the the traffic and move assertively and with good hand signals into the right hand side of the lane and hold the position until you turn. It's probably the best cycling training I ever had (ie saying "here I am" not "fuck you")

one thing I never agreed with in my CP was the need to wave your L arm up and down when slowing down (especially as that was also your front brake arm)

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #154 on: 09 August, 2011, 12:21:20 am »
Ah, so you do take the lane sometimes, and hold it against traffic behind.

I thought it was waving your right arm up and down for slowing down?  Cyclecraft/Bikeability agrees with you - nowadays they teach just to signal left if you're pulling in to stop at the kerb.
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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #155 on: 09 August, 2011, 12:36:55 am »
Ah, so you do take the lane sometimes, and hold it against traffic behind.

I thought it was waving your right arm up and down for slowing down?  Cyclecraft/Bikeability agrees with you - nowadays they teach just to signal left if you're pulling in to stop at the kerb.

It was definititely wave right arm up and down to indicate "I am slowing down" when I did my cycling proficiency 25+ years ago. Can't remember whether signalling left was taught just for turning and/or pulling in to stop, but the "lifesaver" look behind was drilled in big time.
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Biggsy

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #156 on: 09 August, 2011, 12:39:42 am »
Mikey; my suggested riding might well be good Cyclecraft; it also might be just common sense and experience. I confess I'm not a book person and have never read Cyclecraft; I've just had it rammed down my throat by several years of cycle forums. But when I read something that sounds like bollocks (ie riding in the same position in the road as the driver of a RHD car unless I've got it wrong) I reserve the right to call it bollocks; that's all.

Yes, you got it wrong.  It's riding in the middle of the lane for SOME of the time.  Only SOME of the time, for certain situations.

The name "primary position" does cause confusion.  The author's purpose for the term is that this should be the default position unless it's safe to ride at the left of the lane, the "secondary" position.  It's a bit misleading, but the idea is to encourage cyclists to be confident.
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AndyK

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #157 on: 09 August, 2011, 08:08:53 am »
Ah, so you do take the lane sometimes, and hold it against traffic behind.

I thought it was waving your right arm up and down for slowing down?  Cyclecraft/Bikeability agrees with you - nowadays they teach just to signal left if you're pulling in to stop at the kerb.

It was definititely wave right arm up and down to indicate "I am slowing down" when I did my cycling proficiency 25+ years ago. Can't remember whether signalling left was taught just for turning and/or pulling in to stop, but the "lifesaver" look behind was drilled in big time.


Extending and moving the right arm up and down means 'slowing or turning left'. This used to be taught to drivers as well as cyclists. The reason for it is that if you indicate left with the left arm on a bicycle then you only have a hand on the right brake lever. The reason in a car is that people will see your arm out of the off-side window but they probably won't see you point left with your left arm.

Jaded

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #158 on: 09 August, 2011, 08:10:27 am »
I thought for drivers that slowing down was up and down and turning left was arm moved in a circle.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #159 on: 09 August, 2011, 08:42:42 am »
I thought for drivers that slowing down was up and down and turning left was arm moved in a circle.
Correct.
1972 Highway Code shows car driver making a circular movement for turning left or moving in to the left, and an up and down movement to indicate slowing down or stopping.  Up and down also applies to cyclists.  The right arm is used in each case.

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #160 on: 09 August, 2011, 08:49:37 am »
On the super-rare occasion that the up-and-down signal might have been useful for me whilst cycling, I simply haven't bothered because I bet 99% of other road users won't know what on earth I'm doing, despite drivers supposedly knowing the Highway Code.

Normally I just signal left (when wanting to stop), like buses do for a bus stop, which I'm happy to do with my left arm.

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #161 on: 09 August, 2011, 08:58:59 am »
What about when turning right?  Do you wait for a space at the nearside before crossing the road?

Props for a genuinely cunning question. This is a good way to separate people who genuinely don't believe in assertive positioning from those who do, but may not realise they do (or just don't like to be told they're obeying a cycling manual).

One thing which amuses me is that sometimes you'll meet someone on the road who trashes Cyclecraft, but the next minute they do a textbook Cyclecraft manouvre ("oh, that's just common sense, not cyclecraft"  ::-) )

Jaded

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #162 on: 09 August, 2011, 09:01:43 am »
On the super-rare occasion that the up-and-down signal might have been useful for me whilst cycling, I simply haven't bothered because I bet 99% of other road users won't know what on earth I'm doing, despite drivers supposedly knowing the Highway Code.

I found that a few weeks ago when I signalled to indicate to a car behind that we should both slow for a horse ahead. He drew alongside me and made a face like he was about to produce a foot wide turd, then sped off and braked suddenly when he finally saw the horse.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #163 on: 09 August, 2011, 09:41:50 am »
One thing which amuses me is that sometimes you'll meet someone on the road who trashes Cyclecraft, but the next minute they do a textbook Cyclecraft manouvre ("oh, that's just common sense, not cyclecraft"
I read Cyclecraft about 15 years ago by which time I'd already been club riding etc for 30 years.  I remember thinking in many places "that is just what I already do".  Much of it really is the common sense brought on by experience.  I also remember the thought provoking parts such as how it is as important to be perceived as a pedal cycle as it is to be seen.  i.e single headlight.

Martin

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #164 on: 09 August, 2011, 09:49:39 am »
What about when turning right?  Do you wait for a space at the nearside before crossing the road?

Props for a genuinely cunning question. This is a good way to separate people who genuinely don't believe in assertive positioning from those who do, but may not realise they do (or just don't like to be told they're obeying a cycling manual).

One thing which amuses me is that sometimes you'll meet someone on the road who trashes Cyclecraft, but the next minute they do a textbook Cyclecraft manouvre ("oh, that's just common sense, not cyclecraft"  ::-) )

re-arrange these words into a well known phrase:

Eggs
Suck
Grandmother
Teach

Sensible cycle training was around decades before Cyclecraft,


FWIW AIUI the right turning was about getting into a safe position to maneouvre; quite often drivers will pass me on the left as I'm doing it; that's not holding the lane is being in a safe position in the road. If the driver is doing 30 or more when I intend to turn I'll think twice before putting myself in that part of the road

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #165 on: 09 August, 2011, 09:54:43 am »
Thanks, EF, but I wasn't trying to sucker Martin.  He's a great rider and a great person, and that's why I find it all the more surprising that he has such a chip on his shoulder about Cyclecraft.  Unjustified, IMO.
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Biggsy

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #166 on: 09 August, 2011, 09:55:04 am »
Sensible cycle training was around decades before Cyclecraft

Martin, we're agreeing with that.  We're just referring to Cycraft because it handily saves a lot of words.  Please read the following.....

I remember thinking in many places "that is just what I already do".  Much of it really is the common sense brought on by experience.

Same for me too.  I only read the book a very few years ago.  It's almost exactly what I do already - but I didn't start like that.  It took some years for me to develop good technique, via learning from mistakes and near misses.  Cyclecraft should be good for beginners so that they don't have to learn the hard way.

I'm not completely happy with the "primary" term though (despite using it myself on this forum because most of us here know what it means).  It's giving those who haven't read the book the wrong impression.

I fully support any cyclist in doing things their own way (within reason) - but that doesn't stop me worrying about them, hence the encouragement to use primary for SOME of the time, and not just when turning right.
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HTFB

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #167 on: 09 August, 2011, 09:55:39 am »
On the super-rare occasion that the up-and-down signal might have been useful for me whilst cycling, I simply haven't bothered because I bet 99% of other road users won't know what on earth I'm doing, despite drivers supposedly knowing the Highway Code.

Normally I just signal left, like buses do for a bus stop, which I'm happy to do with my left arm.

I find it's readily understood. I make it not with an even waggle but a repeated pushing-down motion. Generally it's useful on steep downhills where I'm in primary, and want the vehicle behind to keep its distance as I slow---perhaps because I'm coming up on a slow vehicle which I wouldn't be able to keep ahead of on the next uphill.  Or if there's a hazard that the car behind can't yet see (a queue just after a hairpin, most recently). Signing left would give exactly the wrong message. In a car you'd use right indicator + brakes, or hazards.
Not especially helpful or mature

nicknack

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #168 on: 09 August, 2011, 09:55:53 am »
Sensible cycle training was around decades before Cyclecraft,

Yes, of course it was, but don't you think it's a good idea that someone has taken the the trouble to put all that collected wisdom into an easily readable book? Not everyone has access to grizzled old cycle campaigners.
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Biggsy

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #169 on: 09 August, 2011, 09:59:26 am »
Signing left would give exactly the wrong message.

Yes, sorry, I was purely thinking of when slowing down and stopping when I mentioned signalling left.  I don't signal left when I'm carrying on.  I don't signal then at all.  I just slow down.
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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #170 on: 09 August, 2011, 10:50:53 am »
The 'slowing down' wave, used with the left arm, is useful when in a group of cyclists. It's probably redundant/obsolete otherwise.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #171 on: 09 August, 2011, 12:00:21 pm »
On the super-rare occasion that the up-and-down signal might have been useful for me whilst cycling, I simply haven't bothered because I bet 99% of other road users won't know what on earth I'm doing, despite drivers supposedly knowing the Highway Code.

I found that a few weeks ago when I signalled to indicate to a car behind that we should both slow for a horse ahead. He drew alongside me and made a face like he was about to produce a foot wide turd, then sped off and braked suddenly when he finally saw the horse.
A signal that people do usually understand is to hold your arm out the window, palm back.
That could save the next horse a scare.
Hand signals, just like other road signs, are pretty useless unless they are intuitive.
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Martin

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #172 on: 09 August, 2011, 12:11:18 pm »
The 'slowing down' wave, used with the left arm, is useful when in a group of cyclists. It's probably redundant/obsolete otherwise.

I'd completely forgotten about it until my son took his CP; I of course meant left arm as that would be very silly for me as that's what operates my front brake!

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #173 on: 14 August, 2011, 06:42:17 pm »
One other aspect of this occurred to me today - potholes. Not only do they tend to be most numerous nearer the edge, but if you are say 50cm out and one is in your line that is too big to go over, you have no option but to divert outwards, whereas if you are say 1m out you have a choice of going round on either side.
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