Author Topic: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?  (Read 23788 times)

iakobski

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #125 on: 08 August, 2011, 01:11:49 pm »
Cyclists right to take the lane? I think it's the cyclists responsibility to take the lane (where necessary).

Many people find driving quite difficult. Especially in unusual situations - unfortunately, in most of the country nowadays, sharing the road with a cyclist is an unusual situation. Any help you can give them is greatly appreciated. If they are unsure whether they can pass they will have to think and make a decision (and with the pressure not to dither, they will usually make the wrong decision). If you make eye contact, signal clearly, move into a blocking position, you have made their decision for them. They don't have to think. They don't have the pressure from behind - look it's not my fault there's a cyclist clearly in the way.

And they love it. They really do.

When I pull back in, I give a clear "thanks" signal as they pass. They love the praise of their driving skills, the acknowlegement of their good deed, or something. Whatever it is, they lap it up, they wave thanks, the passengers too, flash lights, alternate indicators, thumbs up, and all smiles. And this is from drivers I'm certain would have tried to squeeze past if they'd been given the choice.

The signalling is so important. Without that you are a "crazy cyclist all over the road". You are a bloody-minded cyclist who doesn't give a toss about holding up the cars. With it you have made a deliberate move, for a purpose. You have shown you know you are holding them up briefly, and that you appreciate it.

Case in point. After reading some of the comments on this thread I wondered if my riding style is inconsiderate, pig-headed perhaps. On the way home I rode like most other cyclists. The first roundabout I got to there was a car approaching from behind - I'm well out from the gutter, but I didn't signal or try to control the driver behind. Sure enough they overtook entering the roundabout (there are two lanes in so easy to do). But as anyone here knows, a car has to slow on the roundabout, so they are still alongside at the exit, where they promptly pass inches from the kerb. I know it's coming, so a bit of hard braking but no harm done. But why the fuck should I have to? I was in front so why should I have to slam on my brakes for someone who isn't capable of working out how to go round another, moving, road user? If they'd slowed slightly on seeing me, and followed me on to the roundabout, they'd have exited a fraction of a second later, doing the same speed. Then next morning I have a lorry driver going to overtake when there's less than a trailer length between me an the pinch point. He then goes apeshit at me for being in the way! If I'd done the usual indicate, take the dead centre, move back and thank, he'd have lapped it up.

Martin

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #126 on: 08 August, 2011, 01:30:32 pm »
I don't; it's about sharing the road and avoiding unneccessary conflict. Next time you take the lane and wind up a driver who would like to be able to drive at more than cycling speed (espcially uphill) spare athought for the next cyclist he meets...

Kow-towing to cars is not 'sharing' the road. It's giving up the road.

out of interest; who pays for that road? (yes I know the RFL was abolished in 1936 but I also don't believe all that resurfacing is done purely for the benefit of cyclists)

if we set oursleves up as confronting motorists rather than making ourselves visible and vulnerable and also treating motorists with the respect we'd like to have reciprocated respect then it's just increasing the hostility that exists towards us in many circles.

I'm rapidly losing the will to live with this thread; it seems the only thing some of us share in common is the number of wheels on our steeds (mostly)

AndyK

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #127 on: 08 August, 2011, 01:33:33 pm »
I don't; it's about sharing the road and avoiding unneccessary conflict. Next time you take the lane and wind up a driver who would like to be able to drive at more than cycling speed (espcially uphill) spare athought for the next cyclist he meets...

Kow-towing to cars is not 'sharing' the road. It's giving up the road.

out of interest; who pays for that road?

Are you a Top Gear cager trolling the forum? Did you seriously just say that? Everyone pays for the roads, regardless of whether they own cars, bicycles, or whatever.

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #128 on: 08 August, 2011, 01:38:58 pm »
I don't want to make myself vulnerable.  Taking the lane is an effective way of making yourself visible, and does not cause hostility to any reasonable driver when used sparingly.  If you worry about a speck of hostility from bastards then don't cycle on the roads at all because they don't even like you riding in the gutter.  "Get off the road, you bloody cyclist.  You don't pay road tax.  Fuck off".
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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #129 on: 08 August, 2011, 01:40:17 pm »
out of interest; who pays for that road?

We all do.
It is simpler than it looks.

seventytwo

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #130 on: 08 August, 2011, 01:41:40 pm »
I'm sorry to say I had 'that' conversation (I didn't bring it up :hand:) with people at work last week. 

All the usual "I hate it when cyclists don't stay in the cycle lane" followed by "You don't pay road tax", all the cliches came out. 

Later the guy that sits behind me proudly announced that when he encouters cyclists riding two abreast he intentionally passes as close as he can because if they hit him (!) it's them that will get hurt and it'll be their own fault. 

I had to turn round and get on with my work in silence as I was starting to worry I might do something to jeopardise my job. 

I need to clock this sort of conversation as it is forming and go get a cup of tea or something.  I really go off people as soon as this conversation comes up and I never realise in time to put a cap on my temper and end up not reacting the way I wished I had in retrospect.  It's hard not to take it personally.

 :-X

mattc

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #131 on: 08 August, 2011, 01:44:04 pm »
I don't; it's about sharing the road and avoiding unneccessary conflict. Next time you take the lane and wind up a driver who would like to be able to drive at more than cycling speed (espcially uphill) spare athought for the next cyclist he meets...

Kow-towing to cars is not 'sharing' the road. It's giving up the road.

out of interest; who pays for that road? (yes I know the RFL was abolished in 1936 but I also don't believe all that resurfacing is done purely for the benefit of cyclists)
Well, let's look at the options:
the drivers of VED-exempt vehicles, or
the 10% of drivers who evade VED/insurance/MOTs.

Or perhaps it's the pedestrians, cyclists and bus passengers who pay their taxes.
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iakobski

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #132 on: 08 August, 2011, 01:47:38 pm »
I don't; it's about sharing the road and avoiding unneccessary conflict. Next time you take the lane and wind up a driver who would like to be able to drive at more than cycling speed (espcially uphill) spare athought for the next cyclist he meets...

Kow-towing to cars is not 'sharing' the road. It's giving up the road.

if we set oursleves up as confronting motorists rather than making ourselves visible and vulnerable and also treating motorists with the respect we'd like to have reciprocated respect then it's just increasing the hostility that exists towards us in many circles.

I'm rapidly losing the will to live with this thread; it seems the only thing some of us share in common is the number of wheels on our steeds (mostly)

On this one I completely agree with you. It's totally out of order to unnecessarily hold someone up by asserting the "right" to take the lane. It's give and take - I expect drivers to have to wait a little rather than plough through regardless, and in return I will let them past as soon as possible. For the former, most drivers can't work it out for themselves so you have to take the lane. Eventually they will learn. For the latter, just how much of a problem is it?

I remember the first ever audax ride I went on - and almost the last having witnessed the behaviour of many of the "experienced" riders. On a single-track road when a car came up behind, I carried on to the next passing point and pulled in. The experienced audaxers carried on down the middle of the road. FCOL, it was a nine hour ride, what's the problem of a couple of seconds to let someone past?

mattc

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #133 on: 08 August, 2011, 01:55:03 pm »
I remember the first ever audax ride I went on - and almost the last having witnessed the behaviour of many of the "experienced" riders. On a single-track road when a car came up behind, I carried on to the next passing point and pulled in. The experienced audaxers carried on down the middle of the road. FCOL, it was a nine hour ride, what's the problem of a couple of seconds to let someone past?
This is rather like letting a car pass so it can join a queue 100m ahead of you.


Alternatively, you might consider how often motorists stop to allow faster cars past.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Karla

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #134 on: 08 August, 2011, 02:02:59 pm »
out of interest; who pays for that road?

We all do.
I don't!

Apart from motorways and some trunk roads, the roads are paid for out of council tax.

AndyK

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #135 on: 08 August, 2011, 02:09:06 pm »
out of interest; who pays for that road?

We all do.
I don't!

Apart from motorways and some trunk roads, the roads are paid for out of council tax.

And income tax etc.

Regulator

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #136 on: 08 August, 2011, 02:10:16 pm »
out of interest; who pays for that road?

We all do.
I don't!

Apart from motorways and some trunk roads, the roads are paid for out of council tax.

Actually, most roads are paid for out of central taxation, albeit that the money may be given to local authorities to spend.  The income from council tax would only pay for a fraction of the local road network - and local councils have more than just roads to pay for with their income from council tax.
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Martin

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #137 on: 08 August, 2011, 02:32:33 pm »
out of interest; who pays for that road?

We all do.
I don't!

Apart from motorways and some trunk roads, the roads are paid for out of council tax.

Actually, most roads are paid for out of central taxation, albeit that the money may be given to local authorities to spend.  The income from council tax would only pay for a fraction of the local road network - and local councils have more than just roads to pay for with their income from council tax.

the point I was making; the income from cyclists would be a similar drop in the ocean compared to that from motorists via their fuel and VED duty.

anyone who thinks roads are primarily maintained for other than high volume motorised traffic needs to change their glasses from rose-tinted. Everyone who uses them needs to be treated with respect irrespective of how much they pay. When I'm out on my bike I'm not driving one of my 2 cars that I pay rather a lot of tax to run; I fully acknowledge the right of any road user to that road irrespective of how much tax they pay; vehicle use - derived or not.

mattc

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #138 on: 08 August, 2011, 02:56:29 pm »
the point I was making; the income from cyclists would be a similar drop in the ocean compared to that from motorists via their fuel and VED duty.
Many motorists pay a lot less of the above than the average non-car driver pays in taxation. Should we treat them differently?

How about the cost to the NHS of all those road deaths and injuries?

Quote
anyone who thinks roads are primarily maintained for other than high volume motorised traffic needs to change their glasses from rose-tinted.
Of course roads were first tarmacced for cyclists. And wear-and-tear due to cyclists is about a zillionth of that caused by cars. So you should probably get some figures together before following this gambit through.

Quote
Everyone who uses them needs to be treated with respect irrespective of how much they pay.
How many posters on this thread have said otherwise? I'm not out to inconvenience motorists - merely to cover as many miles as them between fatal injuries.
Has never ridden RAAM
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

her_welshness

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #139 on: 08 August, 2011, 03:00:37 pm »
I remember the first ever audax ride I went on - and almost the last having witnessed the behaviour of many of the "experienced" riders. On a single-track road when a car came up behind, I carried on to the next passing point and pulled in. The experienced audaxers carried on down the middle of the road. FCOL, it was a nine hour ride, what's the problem of a couple of seconds to let someone past?
This is rather like letting a car pass so it can join a queue 100m ahead of you.


Alternatively, you might consider how often motorists stop to allow faster cars past.

That is more of an urban setting though Matt, if it was in the countryside and I was on a pootle (group or non-group) then I would pull in. Like Jake I would not want to unnecessarily hold them up. A lot of people that are driving around there are just going about their business whereas I'm just having a pootle. I've seen plenty of occasions where cars and other vehicles have stopped to let a group of us pass. It is courteous  :)

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #140 on: 08 August, 2011, 03:56:25 pm »
out of interest; who pays for that road?
I do. It's my own, personal road.

At least, it used to be. The house I grew up in was on an 'unadopted' road. Each of the twelve households along it was responsible for maintaining the stretch of road along the width of their property to its midpoint.

As for all this cap-doffing and inconveniencing - it's all bollocks. Give and take. Let faster traffic past when it is safe and does not unduly inconvenience you. They should make way for you when they are held up in traffic, or whatever. Many do not, but whose standards do you want to ride by?
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mattc

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #141 on: 08 August, 2011, 04:39:08 pm »
...
I remember the first ever audax ride I went on - and almost the last having witnessed the behaviour of many of the "experienced" riders.


That is more of an urban setting though Matt, if it was in the countryside and I was on a pootle (group or non-group) then I would pull in. Like Jake I would not want to unnecessarily hold them up. A lot of people that are driving around there are just going about their business whereas I'm just having a pootle. I've seen plenty of occasions where cars and other vehicles have stopped to let a group of us pass. It is courteous  :)
Oh sure, I do pull in when it will benefit someone else more than the cost to me.

But think about Jake's scenario - he would need to make sure that everyone in the group was happy to pull in, or there is no point. Each rider that lets the car by will probably then just get stuck behind the car. From his wording, more cyclists would be delayed than car users.

And if it was a narrow lane, the driver might:
- not be able to make much speed anyway, or
- have to stop for oncoming motorised traffic soon enough.

It's also a brave assumption that an impatient driver is undertaking an important journey.

So there are many variables; I think Jake is having an unjustified pot at that particular group of riders, for no good reason.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #142 on: 08 August, 2011, 06:38:37 pm »
I don't; it's about sharing the road and avoiding unneccessary conflict. Next time you take the lane and wind up a driver who would like to be able to drive at more than cycling speed (espcially uphill) spare athought for the next cyclist he meets...

Kow-towing to cars is not 'sharing' the road. It's giving up the road.

out of interest; who pays for that road?

Are you a Top Gear cager trolling the forum? Did you seriously just say that? Everyone pays for the roads, regardless of whether they own cars, bicycles, or whatever.

Not only that, but most roads were Tarmac'd at the insistence of cyclists (at that time mostly middle class or aristocratic) in the late 19th century.
The journey is always more important than the destination

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #143 on: 08 August, 2011, 06:40:30 pm »
I'm sorry to say I had 'that' conversation (I didn't bring it up :hand:) with people at work last week. 

All the usual "I hate it when cyclists don't stay in the cycle lane" followed by "You don't pay road tax", all the cliches came out. 

Later the guy that sits behind me proudly announced that when he encouters cyclists riding two abreast he intentionally passes as close as he can because if they hit him (!) it's them that will get hurt and it'll be their own fault. 

I had to turn round and get on with my work in silence as I was starting to worry I might do something to jeopardise my job. 

I need to clock this sort of conversation as it is forming and go get a cup of tea or something.  I really go off people as soon as this conversation comes up and I never realise in time to put a cap on my temper and end up not reacting the way I wished I had in retrospect.  It's hard not to take it personally.

 :-X

Just leave a copy of the Highway code on his desk.

Or arrange for him to receive spam and junk mail from driving schools.
The journey is always more important than the destination

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #144 on: 08 August, 2011, 06:44:44 pm »
out of interest; who pays for that road?

We all do.
I don't!

Apart from motorways and some trunk roads, the roads are paid for out of council tax.

Actually, most roads are paid for out of central taxation, albeit that the money may be given to local authorities to spend.  The income from council tax would only pay for a fraction of the local road network - and local councils have more than just roads to pay for with their income from council tax.

the point I was making; the income from cyclists would be a similar drop in the ocean compared to that from motorists via their fuel and VED duty.

anyone who thinks roads are primarily maintained for other than high volume motorised traffic needs to change their glasses from rose-tinted.

Does all this also apply to drivers of VED-exempt vehicles - electric, hybrid or just low-emission ICE'd vehicles? Should they give way to clapped-out white vans trailing a plume of unburnt diesel?
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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #145 on: 08 August, 2011, 07:10:48 pm »
Let's get on the pavements to minimise inconvenience to motorists and abuse of their "road tax".
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Gandalf

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #146 on: 08 August, 2011, 07:40:30 pm »
out of interest; who pays for that road?

We all do.
I don't!

Apart from motorways and some trunk roads, the roads are paid for out of council tax.

Actually, most roads are paid for out of central taxation, albeit that the money may be given to local authorities to spend.  The income from council tax would only pay for a fraction of the local road network - and local councils have more than just roads to pay for with their income from council tax.

the point I was making; the income from cyclists would be a similar drop in the ocean compared to that from motorists via their fuel and VED duty.

anyone who thinks roads are primarily maintained for other than high volume motorised traffic needs to change their glasses from rose-tinted.

Does all this also apply to drivers of VED-exempt vehicles - electric, hybrid or just low-emission ICE'd vehicles? Should they give way to clapped-out white vans trailing a plume of unburnt diesel?

Well yes of course, because your WVM, unlike us sponging non 'road tax' paying cyclists is paying VAT and income tax and is using his road for commercial use.


Martin

Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #147 on: 08 August, 2011, 11:07:19 pm »
Let's get on the pavements to minimise inconvenience to motorists and abuse of their "road tax".

show me some pavements around here and I will

Biggsy

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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #148 on: 08 August, 2011, 11:10:06 pm »
Ah, you mustn't cycle at all then.  You will be annoying motorists at times even when riding at the far left side of the road.

That too silly?  So is NEVER taking the lane, in my opinion.
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Re: Is it a cyclist's right to take the lane?
« Reply #149 on: 08 August, 2011, 11:12:19 pm »
Let's get on the pavements to minimise inconvenience to motorists and abuse of their "road tax".

show me some pavements around here and I will

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