HGVs and cyclists. How can we share the road safely?

[Basil]

I assume it's like FFS but including the word "Heaven's"

[Biggsy]

I don't want to comment any more about any specific case in case it offends any relatives of the victim.  I regret starting to comment on one.  Sorry.

My point is that riding in the primary position at danger spots and danger times makes you more visible and disuades, sometimes prevents, overtakes.  Still not enough cyclists do this.  I do not believe that this wouldn't have saved SOME of the victims of lorries.

[Biggsy]

As for there beng enough cyclist education in this subject,  I ride in London and I wouldn't have been aware of any other than signs on lorries if I had not read about it on the internet through being a bike geek.  That's NOT ENOUGH.

[spindrift]

Why was she near the kerb?  Because the truck had forced her across there, FHS!

Do you mean dragged or pushed her to the kerb?

I don't know what FHS stands for.

I don't know if any of the recent deaths of cyclists in incidents involving lorries had any blame whatsoever attached to the cyclist.

Every day I see lorry drivers jump red lights, read paperwork at the wheel (like the lorry driver who killed Emma Foa), drive whilst on a mobile and pissed (like the lorry driver who killed Catriona Patel) or drive over the permitted number of hours (like the lorry driver who killed Tony Spink) , or drive with faulty eyesight (like the lorry driver who killed Eilidh Cairns), or not even notice the cyclist and smash into them from behind (like the lorry driver who killed Vera Chapel).


As far as I can see no amount of cycling training would have made a scrap of difference. 

[clarion]

OK.  Let's make this clear.  According to the witnesses, the cyclist was in what we call primary, but the truck cut across the lane.  She used the space she'd saved herself to move across, but it wasn't enough, as she was completely closed out and ran out of road.  She came off the bike and was killed by the truck driver.  She had been in a position visible to the truck driver if he had been bothered to look before he decided to attempt to cut the corner at an inappropriately high speed.  Poor woman did all she could, and she was a very experienced cyclist, but she was still killed.

Cross-posted with spindrift, and I agree entirely.

[Biggsy]

Spindrift, Being hit from behind is the exception rather than the norm, isn't it?

[Biggsy]

Clarion, I'm not commenting any more on that case for the reason I mentioned above.

Are you saying that in NO cases, the cyclist riding in the primary position wouldn't have made the collision far less likely?

[Butterfly]

Being hit from behind is the exception rather than the norm, isn't it?

No. Most of the fatalities in London were hit from behind according to LCC

[clarion]

Cyclist positioning can help, but the cases cited are killings by truck drivers where ignorance, laziness and just lack of care were the factors.  How do you deal with drunk drivers, some who can't even see, or, most often, just don't look for whatever reason? 

I repeat: Cyclists riding up the left of trucks is NOT the reason cyclists are getting killed in London at least.  Inappropriate vehicles for the situation, ill-equipped vehicles, or incompetent drivers are the main reasons, and that's what we should be banging on about.

[Biggsy]

Being hit from behind is the exception rather than the norm, isn't it?

No. Most of the fatalities in London were hit from behind according to LCC

Involving lorries?  I would appreciate a link if they've posted that online, thanks.

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

In London there has been quite a widespread programme of education already.

It's not widespread and intensive enough.  Much more still needs doing on this front.

I've ridden in London and, apart from noticing warning signs on lorries, I would have been oblivious to any campaigns if I had not known about them from the internet through beeing a cycling geek.

I have a suggestion for something that we can do. I am suggesting that we find out how much it costs to take out a full page ad in the Metro, and we take out a full page ad which shows a lorry's blind spots, and says something like "lorry drivers - check your mirrors" and "cyclists - don't go up the left hand side." If we can afford it, we run it a couple of times on different days of the week. If the forum accounts are in surplus and people agree, we could use some of that towards it. (I know it's a shitty paper, but it's very widely read, and it's passed around so multiple people see each copy).

I don't know if any of the recent deaths of cyclists in incidents involving lorries had any blame whatsoever attached to the cyclist.

Every day I see lorry drivers jump red lights, read paperwork at the wheel (like the lorry driver who killed Emma Foa), drive whilst on a mobile and pissed (like the lorry driver who killed Catriona Patel) or drive over the permitted number of hours (like the lorry driver who killed Tony Spink) , or drive with faulty eyesight (like the lorry driver who killed Eilidh Cairns), or not even notice the cyclist and smash into them from behind (like the lorry driver who killed Vera Chapel).


As far as I can see no amount of cycling training would have made a scrap of difference. 

There is nothing we can do about the lorry drivers who don't know or don't care about the law, or the companies who employ them, except lobby hard for prosecution and tough sentencing when something goes wrong. And sadly until every one of them has an attack of conscience, there will always be some fatalities. What we can do is assist with educating the responsible lorry drivers who want to be as safe as possible, and the cyclists who don't realise they're putting themselves at risk. And of course we can lobby for blind-spot mirrors, proximity sensors and that kind of thing. If someone's the sort of arsehole who's happy to get in a lorry drunk and half blind, all we can hope is that they're caught and jailed before they kill anyone.

ETA: http://www.metro-advertising.co.uk/pdf/ratecards/Ratecard.pdf

It's not cheap. For a full page ad, we'd have to ask other forums to pitch in, and perhaps some safety organisations might help too.

[Ham]

Being hit from behind is the exception rather than the norm, isn't it?

No. Most of the fatalities in London were hit from behind according to LCC

Really? (Said in interest rather than disbelief, although there's a bit of that) be grateful for the ref.

All of this victim nonsense misses the damn point.

THE BETTER YOU CYCLE OR DRIVE THE GREATER YOUR CHANCES OF AVOIDING THE ACCIDENT. IT TAKES TWO TO HAVE A COLLISION AND VERY VERY OFTEN YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT YOURSELF.

No matter how good and experienced you are you can always benefit from education, anyone who says they can't just isn't ejjercated enough.

[Ham]

Cyclist positioning can help, but the cases cited are killings by truck drivers where ignorance, laziness and just lack of care were the factors.  How do you deal with drunk drivers, some who can't even see, or, most often, just don't look for whatever reason? 

I repeat: Cyclists riding up the left of trucks is NOT the reason cyclists are getting killed in London at least.  Inappropriate vehicles for the situation, ill-equipped vehicles, or incompetent drivers are the main reasons, and that's what we should be banging on about.

Let me try to explain myself a bit better. Whatever the situation that results in an accident, it didn't appear from nowhere. Both the cyclist and the lorry came from somewhere - it isn't just the instant of the collision that you need to examine but how both came to be at that point. Nothing you can see about the end result will tell you what decisions could have been made by both not to be in the same place at the same time. The driver needs education, sure, and has the greater responsibility because he is in charge of potentially lethal machinery, but the cyclist may also make other decisions so that they are not there where a collision could occur.

[Biggsy]

I repeat: Cyclists riding up the left of trucks is NOT the reason cyclists are getting killed in London at least.

You don't know that NONE are unless you know the details of every case, do you?  Even the police may not know everything that happened just before every collision.  It's not just up riding up the left side that I'm talking about.  It's also about your position when the lorry hasn't reached you yet.  Where there is only one usable lane, for example, riding in the primary position will prevent overtaking unless the driver hits you from behind.

What percentage of cylist death by lorry happened when the cyclist was in the primary position?  I bet it's a small proportion.

[clarion]

Right.  I've explained to you the detail, as given by witnesses, of an incident where a woman did everything she possibly could to avoid being in that same place at the same time.  But the incompetence of the truck driver overrode that, and she ran out of road and was killed.  She didn't need better rider education, and it's silly and insulting to suggest that she could have done anything different.  What was needed was better driver education, better regulation of haulage companies, and, in some of the other cases cited, better equipment, which AIUI costs about the same as a tank of fuel.  That's what your life and my life just isn't worth to these companies.

Driver education is the most important single factor.  Without question in my mind.

[clarion]

OK, Biggsy, you gonna stay in primary as several tonnes of truck swings into your lane?  How is that going to protect you, precisely?

[nicknack]

Driver education is the most important single factor.  Without question in my mind.

Yes. Absolutely.

[Biggsy]

I'm not arguing about what is the most important single factor, FHS.

Staying in primary makes you more visible, and more difficult to overtake in some cases, so DISUADES being overtaken as often as you would be overtaken in secondary in the same circumstances.  It also physicaly prevents being overtaken when there is only ONE available lane, as they're often is in London, unless you're hit from behind and dragged.

Of course, of course, of course it doesn't help in every case.  The point is that it helps in certain circumstances.  A lot of circumstances.

[Biggsy]

it's silly and insulting to suggest that she could have done anything different.

I've told you that I regret commenting on a specific incident, so stop commenting on that case too, please.  I'm talking in GENERAL terms since reply #65.

[spindrift]

Of course, of course, of course it doesn't help in every case.  The point is that it helps in certain circumstances.  A lot of circumstances.

Any actual example?

[Biggsy]

I'm now going to delete my replies where I commented on that case, and I would appreciate it if everyone deleted my quotes on that case.  Thanks.

[clarion]

As spindrift has indicated, it's not just one case where they cyclist could not have avoided disaster. 

Driver education is the most urgent priority.

[Biggsy]

As spindrift has indicated, it's not just one case where they cyclist could not have avoided disaster.

Of course not, but are you saying there are no cases where the cyclist could have avoided disaster?

Driver education is the most urgent priority.

So what?  What if it doesn't happen soon enough?  What if it's doesn't reduce casualties enough?  It's not liike cyclist education can't happen at the same time.

[Basil]

I've been following this discussion and would like very much to back the points that Biggsy  is making.  I've deleted/abandoned several replies.
Unfortunately I've had a few drinks and must abide by my self imposed rule of "no posting in controversial threads when tipsy"

Sorry Biggsy. 

[Biggsy]

Any actual example?

You're on a bike on a main road with one spare wide lane in your direction and bumper-to-bumper traffic on the other side of the road.

You are approaching a side turning on the left with one available lane for anything to turn into.  A slow-moving lorry is coming up from behind.

1.  Stay in the secondary position.  Lorry overtakes and kills you as it turns left.

2.  Stay in, or get in to, the primary position to block the lorry coming alongside you.  The driver sees you and doesn't run into the back of you.  He's quite happy to slow down and wait until you're out the way.


Thank you Basil, and have a glass of water now.