Addison Lee instruct their Minicabs to start using London bus lanes

[Rhys W]

Seems like Addison Lee has donated £250,000 to the Conservative Party and was rewarded with meetings with then Transport Secretary The Wrong Hammond... (obligatory Guardian link)

[Psychler]

I thought cabs using bus lanes was national.  Is London all special again?

As the title says. Its a London thing.

That probably explains why I've never met this Addison Lee character then. 

Just for provincial reference, cabs in bus lanes isn't the apocalypse out here.  You may now all play the London Is Special card.

I think 'public hire' cabs in bus lanes is a national thing including London, but not 'private hire'. I think but again I'm not sure, London's minicabs are legally neither public nor private hire but something inbetween - probably unique to London!

And while we're at this - why do we persist with the public/private hire split? It's a farce! Not only do cabs in bus lanes work well in other places, but classing all cabs as taxis under the same rules, indeed letting the same vehicle work either on street or from a phone, works perfectly well in many many places.

No, it's exactly the same in London .  "Public hire" as you call it ["ply for hire"] are the licenced "black" cabs, of which I am one, and are allowed to be hailed and pick up at the side of the road.  Mini-cabs are "private hire", in other words there is a private agreement between the passenger and the driver and/or owner of the car; they must be pre-booked.  Until a few years ago they were unregulated and un-licenced, it was a completely private arrangement. 

Legally, [in London anyway] they should not call themselves "cab" or "taxi" but this is ignored.  They have diferent insurance requirements, having cheaper "hire and reward" insurance rather than "ply for hire" insurance which black cab drivers have; my insurance costs £2400- pa [with full no claims bonus]. 

Mini-cab drivers have to take no exam or qualification, whereas black cab drivers have to pass the "Knowledge of London", which on average takes two to four years with roughly 20% of applicants passing.  People will often say why is the Knowledge neccessary in these days of satnav but how many satnavs can take a drunk passenger to "that big white building near the eye" etc.  Additionally, taxi drivers have to undergo an PSV driving test before they can get licenced, private hire drivers are not subjected to that test.

Black cabs are classed as public transport because TFL can dictate what type of vehicle can operate as a taxi, TFL also dictates the fare the black cab charges for each journey.  A black cab itself has to comply with the "conditions of fitness", including the turning circle and disabled access, and the two versions available to buy new [TX4 and Mercedes Vito] both cost circa £40k.  Addison Lee use Ford Galaxys which cost them on average £16k.  Maintenance, licencing etc for my cab costs in the region of £4-5k pa, whereas you can buy a second hand car for £1k and use it as a PHV providing it passes an MOT.

I can go on.  There are quite a few differences which John Griffin [owner of Addison Lee] wants to erode for his own financial benefit. Most private hire companies are owned by rich individuals who pay their drivers a pittance, I do know - I used to be one [a driver, not an owner!]. 

I should add that there's a place for both black cabs and private hire, but they are diferent and should remain so. 

[Sergeant Pluck]

Seems like Addison Lee has donated £250,000 to the Conservative Party and was rewarded with meetings with then Transport Secretary The Wrong Hammond... (obligatory Guardian link)

Indeed. This bit, from that article, is why I had a feeling of deja vu when the current story came out:

Addison Lee used a similar tactic over the M4 bus lane, resulting in more than 200 tickets and 130 court summons against its drivers. These were dropped when the lane was ordered to be closed by Hammond in October 2010.

 

AL wouldn’t be doing this if they were not confident that their bribery had hit the spot.

The funding of our political parties, combined with the unashamed greed of our individual politicians, is making our domestic political news read like that of a corrupt ex-colony.

[Psychler]

Seems like Addison Lee has donated £250,000 to the Conservative Party and was rewarded with meetings with then Transport Secretary The Wrong Hammond... (obligatory Guardian link)

Indeed. This bit, from that article, is why I had a feeling of deja vu when the current story came out:

Addison Lee used a similar tactic over the M4 bus lane, resulting in more than 200 tickets and 130 court summons against its drivers. These were dropped when the lane was ordered to be closed by Hammond in October 2010.

 

AL wouldn’t be doing this if they were not confident that their bribery had hit the spot.

The funding of our political parties, combined with the unashamed greed of our individual politicians, is making our domestic political news read like that of a corrupt ex-colony.

It's not only money.  There were something like £4,000- worth of "non-financial" donations ie free rides!

[Psychler]

John Mason of TFL has apparently said on the radio that it is now in the hands of solicitors to remove Addison Lee's licence.

Oh yeah, great to hear!!! You must be even more chuffed than the rest of us, right? If only it'll actually happen...

I've got no confidence that it will happen.  I think Griffin has pissed TFL off so there's some sabre rattling going on but that's as far as it will go.

 

[Cudzoziemiec]

I thought cabs using bus lanes was national.  Is London all special again?

As the title says. Its a London thing.

That probably explains why I've never met this Addison Lee character then. 

Just for provincial reference, cabs in bus lanes isn't the apocalypse out here.  You may now all play the London Is Special card.

I think 'public hire' cabs in bus lanes is a national thing including London, but not 'private hire'. I think but again I'm not sure, London's minicabs are legally neither public nor private hire but something inbetween - probably unique to London!

And while we're at this - why do we persist with the public/private hire split? It's a farce! Not only do cabs in bus lanes work well in other places, but classing all cabs as taxis under the same rules, indeed letting the same vehicle work either on street or from a phone, works perfectly well in many many places.

No, it's exactly the same in London .  "Public hire" as you call it ["ply for hire"] are the licenced "black" cabs, of which I am one, and are allowed to be hailed and pick up at the side of the road.  Mini-cabs are "private hire", in other words there is a private agreement between the passenger and the driver and/or owner of the car; they must be pre-booked.  Until a few years ago they were unregulated and un-licenced, it was a completely private arrangement. 

Legally, [in London anyway] they should not call themselves "cab" or "taxi" but this is ignored.  They have diferent insurance requirements, having cheaper "hire and reward" insurance rather than "ply for hire" insurance which black cab drivers have; my insurance costs £2400- pa [with full no claims bonus]. 

Mini-cab drivers have to take no exam or qualification, whereas black cab drivers have to pass the "Knowledge of London", which on average takes two to four years with roughly 20% of applicants passing.  People will often say why is the Knowledge neccessary in these days of satnav but how many satnavs can take a drunk passenger to "that big white building near the eye" etc.  Additionally, taxi drivers have to undergo an PSV driving test before they can get licenced, private hire drivers are not subjected to that test.

Black cabs are classed as public transport because TFL can dictate what type of vehicle can operate as a taxi, TFL also dictates the fare the black cab charges for each journey.  A black cab itself has to comply with the "conditions of fitness", including the turning circle and disabled access, and the two versions available to buy new [TX4 and Mercedes Vito] both cost circa £40k.  Addison Lee use Ford Galaxys which cost them on average £16k.  Maintenance, licencing etc for my cab costs in the region of £4-5k pa, whereas you can buy a second hand car for £1k and use it as a PHV providing it passes an MOT.

I can go on.  There are quite a few differences which John Griffin [owner of Addison Lee] wants to erode for his own financial benefit. Most private hire companies are owned by rich individuals who pay their drivers a pittance, I do know - I used to be one [a driver, not an owner!]. 

I should add that there's a place for both black cabs and private hire, but they are diferent and should remain so.

Maybe there is, but although you obviously know this from the inside, I'm still unconvinced that private hire should not be subject to the same licence and insurance conditions as ply-for-hire.

[Psychler]

I should add that there's a place for both black cabs and private hire, but they are diferent and should remain so.

Maybe there is, but although you obviously know this from the inside, I'm still unconvinced that private hire should not be subject to the same licence and insurance conditions as ply-for-hire.

There is no reason why not, to have the same perks [driving in bus lanes!] all private hire have to do is comply with the same regulations, conditions of fitness, licence etc. 

And, as I did, many private hire drivers are trying to do so by attempting the Knowledge.  It's the PH company owners who are trying to erode the differences so that they can rake more in.  John Griffin personally earned approximately £3million last year, I wonder what his 2,500 drivers earned. 

[Cudzoziemiec]

I meant that it should be mandatory. For instance, I'm sure I read - but I may have got it wrong! - that ply-for-hire drivers are subjected to criminal record checks (and possibly some sort of pyschometric testing?) before they can get the relevant licence (this way before the current CRB system), but that private hire drivers don't have any such thing. Probably there had been some minicab murder scandal in the news. I can't imagine it's a huge problem, but clearly it's considered enough of a risk to make it worthwhile doing this for cab drivers - but private hire drivers are just as alone in a vehicle with their passengers! (Hmm, maybe there should be licencing adn testing for passengers to protect drivers!) But even just the striaghtforward driving requirements - it is the same job! Similar hours, vehicles, requests for the big white building somewhere near the Eye, etc...

[JonBoy]

Given what TfL have said:

Allowing tens of thousands of private hire vehicles to drive in bus lanes would seriously disrupt the bus network and our passengers' ability to get around the capital.

As a cyclist - OK I don't go anywhere near London - I would be more concerned that TfL would possibly do something similar to cyclists given a plausible pretense than about minicabs in bus lanes.

[Psychler]

I meant that it should be mandatory. For instance, I'm sure I read - but I may have got it wrong! - that ply-for-hire drivers are subjected to criminal record checks (and possibly some sort of pyschometric testing?) before they can get the relevant licence (this way before the current CRB system), but that private hire drivers don't have any such thing. Probably there had been some minicab murder scandal in the news. I can't imagine it's a huge problem, but clearly it's considered enough of a risk to make it worthwhile doing this for cab drivers - but private hire drivers are just as alone in a vehicle with their passengers! (Hmm, maybe there should be licencing adn testing for passengers to protect drivers!) But even just the striaghtforward driving requirements - it is the same job! Similar hours, vehicles, requests for the big white building somewhere near the Eye, etc...

No, since licencing PHV drivers are also subject to CRB checking.

The big diference is that PHV have to be booked, they can therefore look up their destination on map or satnav before they go and probably wouldn't be despatched to anyone who couldn't give an exact destination.  With a black cab someone gets in and says "take me to.....". 

Hence the Knowledge.  There's a lot more to London than is stored in an A-Z or a satnav.

And the vehicles are diferent.  Addison Lee own their vehicles, as said above they cost approx £16k new.  A new taxi costs approx £40k and the driver either buys or rents/leases the vehicle himself.

The roles are hugely diferent.   

John Griffin is constantly going on about a level playing field, but he doesn't want the same requirements and legislation that black cabs are subject to, only the perks ie ply for hire and bus lanes.

John Griffin's letter to his drivers

16thApril 2012

AddisonLee Driver Notice

Dear Driver,

The Directors of Addison Lee plc believe that the current bus lane regulations,which allow London's Black Cabs to use the bus lanes but prohibit Private Hire from doing so is illegal as it discriminates against Private Hire Operators and drivers who offer a competing taxi service'

We also believe that it denies the public the freedom of choice as journey times in the bus lanes are much quicker than those outside the lanes.

Our legal advice in this matter is that bus lane regulations are currently being misinterpreted to exclude PHV's from bus lanes. Such misinterpretation is unlawful in the following respects;

a. lt is in breach of European rules relating to the freedom of establishment and freedom to supply services
b. lt infringes the general EU principle of equal treatment
c. lt infringes the English Common Law principle of equality before the law
d. lt denies free and fair competition in providing an unfair advantage to one group of commercial operators over others
 
Addison Lee has sought and been granted a Judicial review on this issue which is due to be heard by the end of the year. ln the meantime Addison Lee believes that we cannot'allow our customers to continue to be victims of this unfair and discriminatory treatment.

As Chairman I can advise you that a lawful interpretation of the bus lane regulations entitles Addison Lee drivers with Private Hire identifiersto use all bus lanes in the same way as our Competitors. Accordingly you arefully entitled to use the bus lanes.

The only exception would be those in the City of London which prohibit any taxi from using the bus lanes.

We can confirm that entry into the bus lanes is not an endorsable offence and that we will indemnify all Addison Lee drivers from any fines or other liabilities that may result from using the bus lanes as a result of this advice.

Should any conflict arise between yourself and any black taxi operator please be patient, make a note of any details and use your camera where possible.

Signed



John Griffin
Chairman, Addison Lee plc

[Adrian]

Why does a black cab cost £40,000?

[clarion]

That might include the brown envelopes for the coppers.

[Jurek]

Why does a black cab cost £40,000?

Made in England?

[Cudzoziemiec]

The roles are hugely diferent. 

From a passenger's point of view they're the same! A car with driver to take you where you want.

At a station, airport or certain city centre locations, you can be pretty sure of finding a black (or blue or yellow or whatever) cab waiting; anywhere else, like at home, work, supermarket or the park where you were playing with the kids before it started raining, it's pretty unlikely, so you'll phone for one. I don't see any practical reason why the one that turns up shouldn't have been standing at a rank ten minutes earlier, nor why the law should stop that happening. Phone Z Cabs,Taxi from St Andrew's Park to Brislington, please,  the controller sees Tom is waiting at the rank on St Andrew's Rd and despatches him via radio. Win for Tom, win for Mr Z, win for parent with stroppy kids because of shorter wait, win for traffic congestion because of a shorter empty journey to the pick up, surely? Incidentally, I don't think I've ever given a precise destination address when phoning for a taxi.

Not that any of this has anything much to do with the original topic of bus lanes, mind you! And to get back to that point - seems to me Addison Lee are bullying, telling their drivers to break the law.

[spindrift]

You really don't want to mess with the black cabbies, they're a vocal bunch.

Point 1,

Black cabs are classed as public transport because TFL can dictate what type of vehicle can operate as a taxi, TFL also dictates the fare the black taxi charges for each journey. London taxi drivers have to do the knowledge of London and are subject to testing on this by TFL. It is through this system of TFL insisting that Taxi drivers complete the knowledge and allowing taxi's access to bus lanes that TFL limit the costs of this specific mode of transport for the general public. A London Taxi costs between £36,000 and £42,000 yet you can by a vehicle to use as a private hire vehicle for less than half that amount. London taxi drivers have to undergo an PSV driving test before they can get licensed, private hire drivers are not subjected to that test.

John Griffin insists he wants a level playing field. If that is true he will have no objection to TFL insisting he only uses a specific type of vehicle of their choosing and will accept TFL dictating the fares he charges. He will have no objections to TFL insisting his drivers have their London knowledge tested by them to see if it is up to standard....will he accept any of this....absolutely no way.

If he is not happy to accept the same stringent knowledge testing regime as taxi drivers and is not happy to accept TFL dictating what he can charge, if he is also not happy for TFL to dictate that all of his vehicles are wheelchair accessible and which have a 22 foot turning circle which puts the price of a vehicle into the mid £35000 bracket...if he is not happy to accept all this then he isn’t asking for a level playing field is he...he is asking to be treated very differently from the London Taxi Trade....he cant have it both ways!

Point 2,

John Griffin has for years argued that the drivers who work for Addison Lee are self employed and as such he does not have to pay employer NI tax on their behalf, yet today he makes clear that these drivers are ..."his" drivers and he has "instructed" them to use bus lanes. How does someone who isn’t a person’s employer think he has the right to instruct that person?

Is this a case of John Griffin admitting he has been lying to the tax man for years?

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/transport/thousands-of-minicab-drivers-defy-ban-on-using-london-bus-lanes-7647357.html

Apparently black cabbies are launching a new app, Hailo, no waiting time, no fee. Taking on Addison Lee at their own game.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Point 2 is also a sore point with couriers, including cycle couriers, and some van drivers.

[Mr Larrington]

I may be wrong, but I thought it was because cyclists, pedestrians, horseists etc have a right to use the public highway, and in the usual case of a magic paint bus lane on an established road, it would require legal wrangling to remove the public highway status to prohibit them.

A road built specifically for buses (eg. access to a bus station) can be truly bus-only.

There are a few bus-only lanes in that Londonton - the contraflow one in Tottenham springs to mind.  This doesn't stop norty cyclists from using them, thobut.

[clarion]

How does an AL driver not fall foul of tax law?  Everyone else is deemed to be employed if they do a certain (low) percentage of their work for one organisation.  Unless they are all moonlighting in a biiig way.

[hellymedic]

The roles are hugely diferent. 

From a passenger's point of view they're the same! A car with driver to take you where you want.

They are not!
Black cabs all take people in unfolded wheelchairs and know the area.
In general minicab drivers drive like testosterone junkies and black cab drivers act with maturity.

[Cudzoziemiec]

The roles are hugely diferent. 

From a passenger's point of view they're the same! A car with driver to take you where you want.

They are not!
Black cabs all take people in unfolded wheelchairs and know the area.
In general minicab drivers drive like testosterone junkies and black cab drivers act with maturity.

Which is surely a good reason to bring minicab drivers under the same regulation as black cabbies? And perhaps to require minicabs to be, or to have available a certain number of, black (other colours available!) cabs - particularly as "ply-for-hire" cabs don't exist in many places?

[hellymedic]

Minicabbing is something almost anyone can do if they have a car and suitable insurance. Driving a black cab requires much more commitment and skill re vehicle, and knowledge.
I use both, lots. They are not the same.
Even when Comcab sends adapted minicabs, I fear a journey far more than in a 'black cab'. Sitting over an unsuspended rear axle does not help when the satnav chooses the ratrun with the greatest number of speedbumps.

It's usually more difficult to choose a route with a minicab driver. I don't like arguments and some males won't have a woman tell them what to do.

[clarion]

I've been thinking(sorry about temperamentalspacebar)

The lads who set up a facebookpage encouraging othersto riotvery quickly got custodialsentences, and this is a case of someone giving orders to commit crime.  So the penalty should be justasswiftand more severe.

[Cudzoziemiec]

But should it be like that?
If we require higher standards from taxi drivers than from car drivers, because they are ferrying people around for money, then should we not require the same standards from other drivers who ferry people around for money?

[mrcharly-YHT]

It's not just the standard of drivers, it is the cars. To force all minicab operators to upgrade their cars to Hansom Cab standards would be unrealistic.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Are 'black cabs' required for all 'hail on the street' taxis nationwide or is it down to each local authority to decide?