Yet Another Cycling Forum

Off Topic => The Pub => Food & Drink => Topic started by: simonp on 15 January, 2013, 07:44:32 pm

Title: Beef burgers?
Post by: simonp on 15 January, 2013, 07:44:32 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21034942

Doubt I’ve eaten any of the products which have horse meat in, as I don’t generally shop in Tesco or Iceland, and frozen beef burgers is something I can’t recall ever buying.

If you found you’d been sold beef burgers which were up to 29% horse meat, would you care? I think I’d at least like them to be honestly labelled as "random animal burgers" if that was the case.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Julian on 15 January, 2013, 08:08:36 pm
I wouldn't care, but then I've eaten horse meat in France. 

I did as a student purchase Tesco Value Beefburgers, once and only once because they were boak - I'd rather not eat meat at all, and quite honestly it's a surprise that they contain anything other than cereals and rat meat.  Then again, only in the UK could we expect to purchase meat of any kind for that sort of price.  :-\
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Adam on 15 January, 2013, 08:17:51 pm
Horse is quite tasty, a bit like venison.  If someone's happy to eat beef, then there's no real reason to be upset about noshing on old dobbin.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: bobb on 15 January, 2013, 08:48:46 pm
I love horse and always make a point of eating some when I'm in France. However, these burgers are supposed to be cow. They should at least be what they say they are. But I doubt anyone would buy them if they were labelled truthfully...
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Jaded on 15 January, 2013, 08:53:38 pm
Still, it says they found horse DNA. So somewhere there is a farm trying to create a calffoal or something like that.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rogerzilla on 15 January, 2013, 09:04:51 pm
I love horse
Best of all the animals, they're my friends.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Arch on 15 January, 2013, 09:24:18 pm
Horse meat is actually better for you than beef - the nature of the horse's digestive system means the fat in the meat is polyunsaturated.

I had a donkey sausage last time in France, so no, horsemeat wouldn't bother me.  But I don't tend to buy that sort of burger just because they are usually not all that nice.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Kathy on 15 January, 2013, 09:30:25 pm
I've eaten horse: it's nommy. However since these burgers were meant to contain cow and not horse, then there's no guarantee that this horse was suitable for human consumption, which is more of a concern.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Kim on 15 January, 2013, 09:33:04 pm
Surely the pig contamination is a more serious issue than the horse?

I wonder if they tested for human DNA...


Food labelling should be accurate, though, for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Charlotte on 15 January, 2013, 09:41:03 pm
I'm genuinely shocked that they managed to find traces of real, actual meat in some of the Tesco value burgers.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Julian on 15 January, 2013, 09:46:37 pm
They didn't say they found meat.  They said they found animal DNA.  #pedant
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Canardly on 15 January, 2013, 09:49:59 pm
Surely all of the above is why ketchup was invented? :demon:
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Kim on 15 January, 2013, 09:52:34 pm
May contain traces of Brown Sauce...   :hand:
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: simonp on 15 January, 2013, 10:19:29 pm
At the least, consumers should have accurate information about what’s gone into the product. I had a thought along a similar line to Kathy’s.

The pig thing is perhaps a concern for some for religious reasons (not me). There’s probably also higher risk of food borne pathogens in pig meat than burger meat, but really anything which has been minced should be properly cooked throughout anyway.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Pancho on 15 January, 2013, 10:29:04 pm
Surely the pig contamination is a more serious issue than the horse?

Horse is halal, aiui.
Title: Beef burgers?
Post by: Biggsy on 15 January, 2013, 10:35:39 pm
How do you fit a donkey sausage in the bun?

Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 15 January, 2013, 10:42:56 pm
I've eaten horse: it's nommy. However since these burgers were meant to contain cow and not horse, then there's no guarantee that this horse was suitable for human consumption, which is more of a concern.
If, as seems likely, the slaughterhouses are just processing any old animal for burger meat, then were the cows fit for human consumption? As Julian says, if you search for the cheapest meat, it's not going to be good stuff.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 January, 2013, 10:45:34 pm
Horse meat is actually better for you than beef - the nature of the horse's digestive system means the fat in the meat is polyunsaturated.

I had a donkey sausage last time in France, so no, horsemeat wouldn't bother me.  But I don't tend to buy that sort of burger just because they are usually not all that nice.

Fnarr fnarr!
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Hot Flatus on 16 January, 2013, 06:04:19 am
I had a donkey sausage last time in France,

I think I saw the video
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Illegal Combat Ant on 16 January, 2013, 07:42:57 am
My Lidl Pony.  ;)
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: urban_biker on 16 January, 2013, 07:47:26 am
I remember living on tesco value burgers when I was a student. ( Burger curry, burger casserole etc etc )

I think the main meat-like constituent was supposed to be mechanically recovered chicken. I bet these new horse meat infused varieties improve the quality no end.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Melbourne12 on 16 January, 2013, 07:48:54 am
My Lidl Pony.  ;)

It's just equestrian of taste.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Pancho on 16 January, 2013, 08:02:52 am
Burgers are excellent for eating on the hoof.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Ham on 16 January, 2013, 08:04:34 am
Taste depends on what the mane ingredient is
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Melbourne12 on 16 January, 2013, 08:08:02 am
Mind, they could give you the trots.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: numbnuts on 16 January, 2013, 08:12:28 am
So that's were Shergar went
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Jaded on 16 January, 2013, 08:14:37 am
Hmmm, burger improved with a dash of hock.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: madcow on 16 January, 2013, 08:24:14 am
IF Tesco and all the others have proper traceability programmes in their supply chain, it should be possible to identify the source of the meat that was processed into burgers.
All the cow meat should be from EU registered abbatoirs which have Defra meat inspectors in attendance 99% of the time that killing takes place. Veterinary inspectors should also be present some of the time, to ensure all animals are fit for human consumption.
The presence of horse DNA is not proof of horse meat being used, but one sample indicated a very high content of horse DNA so it looks likely.
It could be fat, bone meal, meat extracts as well as meat.

Burgers destined for supermarkets are produced on an industrial scale.
 As someone associated with farming and who can also remember the last burger disaster that bears my name ,I am very angry that someone thought it was a good idea to include horse meat or horse meat  by- products into these burgers.
The FSA may be correct in saying there is no risk to health, but the damage that these companies have done to the food production industry will take a long time to repair.
There is no doubt that all the supermarkets are aiming to keep costs of production down and profits up.
In an ideal world ,everyone of these supermarkets would be prosecuted for selling burgers that are not conforming to their stated ingredients. But they won't be , and we will get the usual lessons have been learned, it won't happen again.
And poor people will carry on buying shit burgers from supermarkets because they don't know or can't afford any better.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Melbourne12 on 16 January, 2013, 09:18:25 am
IF Tesco and all the others have proper traceability programmes in their supply chain, it should be possible to identify the source of the meat that was processed into burgers.
All the cow meat should be from EU registered abbatoirs which have Defra meat inspectors in attendance 99% of the time that killing takes place. Veterinary inspectors should also be present some of the time, to ensure all animals are fit for human consumption.
The presence of horse DNA is not proof of horse meat being used, but one sample indicated a very high content of horse DNA so it looks likely.
It could be fat, bone meal, meat extracts as well as meat.

Burgers destined for supermarkets are produced on an industrial scale.
 As someone associated with farming and who can also remember the last burger disaster that bears my name ,I am very angry that someone thought it was a good idea to include horse meat or horse meat  by- products into these burgers.
The FSA may be correct in saying there is no risk to health, but the damage that these companies have done to the food production industry will take a long time to repair.
There is no doubt that all the supermarkets are aiming to keep costs of production down and profits up.
In an ideal world ,everyone of these supermarkets would be prosecuted for selling burgers that are not conforming to their stated ingredients. But they won't be , and we will get the usual lessons have been learned, it won't happen again.
And poor people will carry on buying shit burgers from supermarkets because they don't know or can't afford any better.

The initial press releases from the Irish Food Standards Agency named the processing plants, so the traceability worked properly.

Why prosecute the retailers, though?  Surely you don't believe that Tesco, Iceland, Lidl, Aldi, and Dunnes all secretly ordered Dalepak and others to mix horsemeat and pork into the beef? 
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Arch on 16 January, 2013, 09:30:42 am
How do you fit a donkey sausage in the bun?

With a bit of ass-istance...

It was a salami type thing bought at a market en route, very nice, but I couldn't have identified it as not beef or even pork to be honest, it was just a sort of salami.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 16 January, 2013, 10:15:45 am
I don't think horses slaughtered in the UK is halal but could be wrong, there aren't many places in the UK that can do horses,AFAIK they are killed by captive bolt and then bled out, I have no problem with horses being killed for human consumption, unfortunately there are a lot of do gooders who go to auctions and pester slaughter houses to buy animals and "save" them from being killed and then let them stand in a field half starved and covered in lice, there is a massive problem in the UK with horse numbers and with this recession it's getting worse, I went to a sale recently and yearling mountain ponies were selling for less than the burgers!   
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Biff on 16 January, 2013, 11:02:17 am
Horses for courses innit.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Jaded on 16 January, 2013, 11:05:54 am
I went to a sale recently and yearling mountain ponies were selling for less than the burgers!

It's the processing costs.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Illegal Combat Ant on 16 January, 2013, 11:27:41 am
If you want any of those burgers you'll have to hurry up. They won't be available furlong.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: madcow on 16 January, 2013, 11:37:22 am
Why prosecute the retailers, though?  Surely you don't believe that Tesco, Iceland, Lidl, Aldi, and Dunnes all secretly ordered Dalepak and others to mix horsemeat and pork into the beef? 

No, you're probably right but it was a well kept secret and the retailers themselves will suffer some loss of reputation.
 It does point to a rogue sourcing issue or covert substitution . 
Having made the headlines today , it will be interesting to see if this is followed through, so that we do get to find out who knew what.

Funnily enough Mrs M was at a social gathering at the end of last year and commented on the large number of horses that could be seen in fields near the host's house. The reply was something like "Its incredibly cruel , they are all destined for horsemeat."
 
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Biff on 16 January, 2013, 11:39:02 am
Went to the fridge to check my burgers, aaaaannndddd they're off!
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: spindrift on 16 January, 2013, 11:44:22 am
Meat is red rum
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 16 January, 2013, 12:17:32 pm
Anagram: Shergar bum = hamburgers

IGMC
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rogerzilla on 16 January, 2013, 12:38:19 pm
I like my meat well hung.  Like a donkey.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: anotherdeadhero on 16 January, 2013, 12:52:57 pm
Wnat some cheap burgers? I can get you some neigh bother.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Bledlow on 16 January, 2013, 12:59:34 pm
I've eaten horse: it's nommy. However since these burgers were meant to contain cow and not horse, then there's no guarantee that this horse was suitable for human consumption, which is more of a concern.
+1.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 16 January, 2013, 01:10:54 pm
I thought all race horses had their passports signed as "not for human consumption" so that they could be medicated for what ever reason,
for those who don't know, all horses these days have a passport, which has a declaration within, that the owner has to sign to say if the horse is for human consumption or not. If it is signed not for human consumption then you are limited to what drugs can be used, if any, due to the fact that there has been no withdrawal time limits tested on horse medication like their has been on other livestock meds. I know I wouldn't want to eat horse meat from the UK,  I would think that 95% of horses who end up at the knackers yard go abroad for human consumption as rearing horses for meat in this country is virtually non existent,     
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Eccentrica Gallumbits on 16 January, 2013, 01:19:37 pm
Meat is red rum
;D
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: FatBloke on 16 January, 2013, 01:28:10 pm
I'd rather eat horse than cheap Tesco Burgers!!    :sick: :sick:
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Biff on 16 January, 2013, 02:27:53 pm
Tesco's veggie burgers are currently being tested for uniquorn.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 16 January, 2013, 04:47:34 pm
I thought all race horses had their passports signed as "not for human consumption" so that they could be medicated for what ever reason,

pfft. Racehorses will have been given less drugs than your average cow. Drug testing on horses that win (or unexpectedly don't win) is very rigorous.

*definitely* no growth hormones, dosing with antibiotics in feed as a norm.  This is normally done to cattle.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: LEE on 16 January, 2013, 04:56:13 pm
Tesco's veggie burgers are currently being tested for uniquorn.

You think their budget fish-fingers may have traces of Sea Horses in them?
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Andrij on 16 January, 2013, 05:01:54 pm
Tesco's veggie burgers are currently being tested for uniquorn.

You think their budget fish-fingers may have traces of Sea Horses in them?

I would have said Sea Monkeys.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: madcow on 16 January, 2013, 05:21:59 pm
Just wondering if Dalepak had employed Hilary Briss-something a bit special in them burgers.   

http://www.leagueofgentlemen.co.uk/newseriestour.shtml
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: slowfen on 16 January, 2013, 05:33:00 pm
Not able to post earlier, but some of the reports were talking in terms of the tesco burgers being upto 29% horse meat, but this was also being linked with another story of pig dna contamination of burgers.

To me this is to different problems, the pig DNA is, I would think, poor hygiene
Whereas 29% meat is serious supply chain lets bulk out problem.

This makes it even more unlikely that I would purchase supermarket/mass produced meat products.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 16 January, 2013, 05:40:11 pm
@ mrcharly I was referring to general medication like bute & antibiotics, I wouldn't have thought that the random testing your talking about would show those drugs up as they're not the ones being looked for.

I've just had a look at some paperwork and there is a 6 month withdrawal period for some meds and other meds if used renders (excuse the pun) the horse unfit for human consumption
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rogerzilla on 16 January, 2013, 07:40:21 pm
Sickipedia has come into its own (fnarr!) with this story, which has spawned the best one-liners for a generation.

Last night at tea time, my wife asked what my burger tasted like.  "Champion", I said.

To eat a burger or not to eat a burger, that is equestrian.

Meat is Red Rum.

Unexpected item in bagging area.  That'll be a horse, then.

Not to be outdone by Tesco, a budget supermarket has introduced My Lidl Pony.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rogerzilla on 16 January, 2013, 07:51:36 pm
It behooves me to scurry away from this thread.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: madcow on 16 January, 2013, 08:11:59 pm
You must be feeling a bit knackered!
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Tewdric on 16 January, 2013, 10:03:21 pm
While you're all sniggering, I understand that a London man is in hospital with severe food poisoning from a Tesco horse burger.

Thank heaven's he's in a stable condition.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Jaded on 16 January, 2013, 11:27:00 pm
Girl asked me in Tesco if I wanted anything on my burger:

I said £5 Each Way
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: clarion on 17 January, 2013, 10:15:26 am
Are Tesco flogging a dead horse?
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Jaded on 17 January, 2013, 11:08:36 am
I've dug out my Galloping Gourmet recipe book.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Biff on 17 January, 2013, 11:53:02 am
Horse meat found in Tesco burgers. Camel toe found in Primark leggings.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: LEE on 17 January, 2013, 12:04:22 pm
Will eating a dead horse give you the trots?

Bzzt - Repetition

Do try to keep up
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Pancho on 17 January, 2013, 12:35:35 pm
Well spotted, Paul! I must rein in my mistakes, get the bit between my teeth and be spurred on to better comments.

Good man - don't bridle at it.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: eeymsmo on 17 January, 2013, 12:38:26 pm
If you liked their hamburgers, you should try the meatballs. They're the Dog's Bollocks.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: madcow on 17 January, 2013, 01:37:04 pm
Reminds me of Ben Elton in standup mode, telling the story of Colonel Sanders using every bit of chicken in the KFC menu.
"Go on son ( as lad is sweeping the entrails off the floor) , chuck 'em  in the fryer"
"But no-one will want to eat them, sir"
"Yes they will.  chicken m'cbollocks- you know you want to."
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: RJ on 17 January, 2013, 08:05:06 pm
They didn't say they found meat.  They said they found animal DNA.  #pedant

Well spotted.  Horse DNA in burgers may have come from additives - Finger of suspicion now points at suppliers of high-protein powders based in the Netherlands and Spain (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/jan/17/horse-dna-burger-additives)

Warning:  may contain traces of Grauniad
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 January, 2013, 03:56:31 pm
Makes sense I guess, compared to actual horse meat which could be sold as such in other countries. But then the beef in the burgers is probably from similar processes.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: simonp on 18 January, 2013, 04:04:46 pm
So it’s just powdered horse? Well where can I get some of these quality burgers!


Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Biggsy on 18 January, 2013, 04:05:22 pm
It's been suggested that some Tesco burgers were 30% horse.  That's more than a trace of DNA.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 January, 2013, 04:20:39 pm
So it’s just powdered horse? Well where can I get some of these quality burgers!
Any city centre street, no beef! Probably not UCI approved. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=horse)
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Fab Foodie on 18 January, 2013, 08:56:26 pm
Reminds me of Ben Elton in standup mode, telling the story of Colonel Sanders using every bit of chicken in the KFC menu.
"Go on son ( as lad is sweeping the entrails off the floor) , chuck 'em  in the fryer"
"But no-one will want to eat them, sir"
"Yes they will.  chicken m'cbollocks- you know you want to."
In a certain part of Hungary, Chicken bollocks are the local delicacy ....
Not my first choice on the menu, but OK.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rogerzilla on 19 January, 2013, 02:53:27 pm
http://m.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/jan/18/tesco-tweets-horsemeat

Haha!
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: andyoxon on 19 January, 2013, 09:03:13 pm
The mini ao's suggested this... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=Dwe8zAPb4V8
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 21 January, 2013, 01:50:04 pm
this is worth a listen, especially the american jurno, makes you wonder where it's all going

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01pz595
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Gaston Lagaffe on 21 January, 2013, 06:23:09 pm
You think Tesco have problems :o :o

(http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/553481_10151251884934033_1369557116_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 January, 2013, 06:33:12 pm
So it seems the horse meat was imported to Ireland from Poland, where the horses were slaughtered in an abattoir owned by the parent company of the Irish meat processors. Horse meat wouldn't provoke the automatic "errgh" in Poland it does here, but isn't as popular as in, say, France. More to the point, if this implies the horses had been kept in Poland, they were probably agricultural horses - still a lot of horse-carts and even horse ploughing out there - rather than racing horses, as that's a pretty minor sport there, and so won't have been fed any of these dangerous race horse drugs. Then again, with the supply chain already spanning three countries, these horses could have been taken to the Polish slaughterhouse from Germany or elsewhere.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rogerzilla on 07 February, 2013, 07:32:16 pm
Findus beef lasagne is in fact horse lasagne.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21375594
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 07 February, 2013, 11:04:12 pm
well I suppose BSE isn't a risk ;)
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: spesh on 07 February, 2013, 11:07:40 pm
well I suppose BSE isn't a risk ;)

No, it'll be phenylbutazone instead...

ETA - PBZ was taken off the human drug market after it was found to cause aplastic anaemia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aplastic_anemia) which, going by the wiki article I've linked to, is pretty nasty in its own right.

There was an article on the PBZ risk from American horses on Wired - of all places, a few weeks ago:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/01/horse-meat-scandal/
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 07 February, 2013, 11:12:25 pm
oh thats all right that only causes cancer. :facepalm:

a report on radio 4 recently interviewed a journalist from USA who had looked into what happens to their "retired" race horses, basically 90% of american & canadian horses are slaughtered and the 3 biggest importers of that meat are belgium, france & italy,
I can't remember the figures but it runs into thousands, so it does raise the question where does all this meat go, it can't all be pet food.   
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: spesh on 07 February, 2013, 11:20:03 pm
Sorry, edited whilst you posted.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 07 February, 2013, 11:24:42 pm
yeah got my figures slightly wrong, USDA estimate 90,000 horses exported to Canada & Mexico for slaughter each year, not sure of the percentage but the 3 EU countries above are still the biggest importers
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: spesh on 07 February, 2013, 11:46:34 pm
yeah got my figures slightly wrong, USDA estimate 90,000 horses exported to Canada & Mexico for slaughter each year, not sure of the percentage but the 3 EU countries above are still the biggest importers

Could be even more than that - according to the Wired article linked above, a 2011 report by the Government Accountability Office suggested 138,000 horses were exported to Canada and Mexico for slaughter in 2010*.

* see page 11 of: http://latitudenews.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/GAO-Unintented-Consequences-from-stopping-US-slaughter.pdf
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Hot Flatus on 08 February, 2013, 07:38:54 am
I probably shouldn't find this situation funny but I do.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Charlotte on 08 February, 2013, 08:31:59 am
Soylent Green and Sonmi-451.  It'll happen eventually.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 08 February, 2013, 09:04:18 am
@ •ó°₩°ò• I think ironic more than it is amusing that lots of people are happily tucking into dobbin thinking they're eating cow, I've worked in the horse industry for years & have absolutely no problem with the idea of eating horse meat, what I do have a problem with & seems to be a point that every one is missing is that livestock intended for the human food chain is supposedly tracked from birth to slaughter at great expense & time to the farmer. Every thing is double tagged and medicine & movement records are kept & checked and if things don't match up then farmer Jones is in deep shit, now we find that 100's of 1000's of horses from all over the world with no records of any type are ending up in our food, these animal's could be full of medicines that are harmful to humans, bute has already been mentioned but there will be antibiotics plus loads of other drugs that we do not want to be exposed to possibly present in the meat,
Even though I am aware of the dangers of this problem I suppose I do still find it funny, but maybe minced meat will be crossed off my shopping list for a while :)
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Jaded on 08 February, 2013, 09:16:09 am
I heard Tesco are planning to relay all their supermarkets, putting ready meals in the home straight.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rafletcher on 08 February, 2013, 10:27:49 am
I suppose I do still find it funny, but maybe minced meat will be crossed off my shopping list for a while :)

So you think fresh minced meat may also contaminated? Given that our butcher minces his own beef I consider that, in that instance, it'd be unlikely - though it's possible some of the high fat-low protein "everyday" fresh pre-packed supermarket mince might be. But thus far it seems only to be in processed products. I'm so glad I learnt to, and enjoy, cooking.  Not that I object to horsemeat - I like it, and maybe there's a market alongside other "exotic" meats - kangaroo for example.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Kathy on 08 February, 2013, 11:02:28 am
I wonder how long before this spreads to high-street retailers of burgers and lasagne such as McBurgerWimpey and all the chain Italian restaurants?
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: pcolbeck on 08 February, 2013, 11:11:10 am
I hope this means more people will use good quality local butchers instead of supermarkets. At the butchers you can watch them mince the meat in front of you.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rafletcher on 08 February, 2013, 11:29:37 am
I wonder how long before this spreads to high-street retailers of burgers and lasagne such as McBurgerWimpey and all the chain Italian restaurants?

Indeed, anywhere supplied by the likes of 3663 or other suppliers of mass produced generic product. I'm sure there's a significant backlog in the relevant test houses all over Europe at present,
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: LEE on 08 February, 2013, 11:41:57 am
I hope this means more people will use good quality local butchers instead of supermarkets. At the butchers you can watch them mince the meat in front of you.

I think watching a butcher cramming a horse into a mincer would make me cry.

(I'd still eat it though)

I was eating Bistecca Cavallo for weeks in Italy, commenting on how nice these Cavallo Cows tasted, before someone broke the news to me.  I think my immediate reaction was to order another one.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Hot Flatus on 08 February, 2013, 11:48:10 am
Ferret, it's even funnier from the perspective of a non-meat eater. ;)

Good point about the tracking of meat, but the wider issue is that we are foolish to place any credence in the food industry about anything. Whether it be about the supposed healthiness of their products or whether the contents bear much relationship to what it says on the label.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 08 February, 2013, 11:55:36 am
Of course it is. The whole point of mince is to render the inedible edible.

Good point about the tracking of meat, but the wider issue is that we are foolish to place any credence in the food industry about anything.


Agreed.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 08 February, 2013, 12:52:41 pm
I'm not sure but didn't Burger King or one of the chains have a problem recently ?

and obviously if you can see the butcher mince the meat in front of you should be ok as long as you can tell the difference between a lump of horse meat and a lump of cow,  yes we are bloody stupid to believe anything we're told about the food industry. The biggest problem is that we all want cheap food and the supermarkets want to make money and the farmers need to make a living and as far as I'm concerned those three don't go together.

•ó°₩°ò• I'm not a veggie but I respect your right to make up your own mind what you eat and it would
appear that you have every right to be laughing your head off at the moment :thumbsup:

All this crap started during the last war, when the government insisted we became as self sufficient in food as possible, and it's just carried on as can be seen in the old type of subsidies where you were paid by how many stock you carried. Now all the hedges have gone massive fields exist to cater for the size of machinery and to speed up harvest time, same with livestock, animals have gone indoors so that they are easier to feed & grow quicker it's a vicious circle I don't know what the answer is, but it's probably down to joe public to do something before changes are made, :)     
 
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rafletcher on 08 February, 2013, 01:56:18 pm
Apparently it's 30 years ago today....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21316921

 ;D
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: RJ on 08 February, 2013, 02:39:18 pm
I was spitting teeth at Peter Kendall's (president of NFU) contribution on the World at One:  you'd have thought he was representing the food-processing industry, not primary producers  >:(
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 February, 2013, 02:45:20 pm
I don't suppose the non-tracking problem is limited to horses and minced 'beef', it will be found wherever any sort of surplus animal can be passed off as another in a more profitable way.

As for trusting the food industry, yes the only way to be sure of what you are eating is to cook it yourself from primary ingredients, but that raises other issues of the way we run society and our lives, such as the death of the housewife, working hours, etc etc.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Riggers on 08 February, 2013, 02:46:26 pm
I was spitting teeth at Peter Kendall's (president of NFU) contribution on the World at One:  you'd have thought he was representing the food-processing industry, not primary producers  >:(


Bloody hell! You're ard. I'd be spitting blood rather than teeth, but there you are.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 08 February, 2013, 06:14:49 pm
yes teh NFU No F****ing Use they're a gentleman's club not a farming union, I told them where to go a long time ago,

we've had all these insurances that there  is no danger from drugs etc entering the food chain, up until 2 or 3 days ago we didn't even know we had a problem ? you believe who you want but I know what I'm going to avoid. ;)
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Jules on 09 February, 2013, 01:07:03 pm
All my complaining about this isn't doing my throat any good at all.

I'm a little horse
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Illegal Combat Ant on 09 February, 2013, 01:42:19 pm
The Government were warned of the potential consequences of making the FSA part of DEFRA back in 2010.

http://gimpyblog.posterous.com/food-standards-agency-warned-lansley-in-2010

I fear there may well be plenty of unintended consequences from government re-organisations since 2010.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Bledlow on 09 February, 2013, 02:45:23 pm
I hope this means more people will use good quality local butchers instead of supermarkets. At the butchers you can watch them mince the meat in front of you.
My grandmother used to buy butcher's scraps & mince them herself - or get me to do it. She had a child-powered metal mincer that clamped onto the edge of the table, with different internal bits for different grades of mince. It was common household kit back then.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rafletcher on 09 February, 2013, 04:26:36 pm
I still have, and use, one.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Arch on 10 February, 2013, 09:31:58 am
I hope this means more people will use good quality local butchers instead of supermarkets. At the butchers you can watch them mince the meat in front of you.
My grandmother used to buy butcher's scraps & mince them herself - or get me to do it. She had a child-powered metal mincer that clamped onto the edge of the table, with different internal bits for different grades of mince. It was common household kit back then.

Spong?

Ours was used mainly once a year, to make the Christmas mincemeat.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Bledlow on 10 February, 2013, 06:37:11 pm
Probably.

It looked like this -
(http://www.camillasring.co.uk/SPONG%20MINCER.jpg)
 - but without the rust.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rogerzilla on 10 February, 2013, 07:16:12 pm
http://www.b3ta.com/board/10925304

 ;D
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Arch on 10 February, 2013, 09:26:52 pm
Probably.

It looked like this -
(http://www.camillasring.co.uk/SPONG%20MINCER.jpg)
 - but without the rust.

Ah, a bit older than ours - ours had a plastic hopper I think. In orange.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: geraldc on 10 February, 2013, 09:48:39 pm
Now there are reports that organised crime are behind it all!

I think that the long term effect of this, is that people will start eating horse as horse. It will need a better name though, so as to stop it getting confused with heroin though.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: pcolbeck on 10 February, 2013, 09:52:45 pm
Dobbin ?
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 10 February, 2013, 09:57:24 pm
Morrisons have had reservations about this for a long time, and have a sniffer dog at each of their stores. They vary in breed, our local one is a Cocker Spaniel called 'Snuffles'.

(http://www.swmprobation.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/sniffer-dog.jpg)

http://news.sky.com/story/1050255/horsemeat-driver-lifts-lid-on-breaches
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 10 February, 2013, 10:22:17 pm
well it's all coming out now, organised crime I think that's just a diversion the only criminals are the food industry, supermarkets & the government, I remember a few years ago protesting to stop the government of the day closing down small local abattoirs, we weren't listened to back then, now it's too late. This is what happens to our food when the multinationals get their hands on it, all they're concerned about is profit,.
When we last had pigs, pig feed kept going up & up until it reached 200 quid per tonne, finished pig prices stayed stagnant and when pig prices started to go up in the UK the buyers went abroad where they don't stick to the rules quite as tightly as we do,
I heard our food minister say that we should not ban any imports as this is an EU wide problem, I'm quite sure if the boot was on the other foot France & Germany would have banned our exports last week, :facepalm:
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: andrewc on 10 February, 2013, 10:22:54 pm
All the fault of those dastardly Romanians ! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/horse-meat-found-in-british-supermarkets-may-be-donkey-8489030.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/horse-meat-found-in-british-supermarkets-may-be-donkey-8489030.html)

Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Tewdric on 10 February, 2013, 10:28:07 pm
I like my beef to be hung, but not hung like a donkey.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 10 February, 2013, 10:35:37 pm
that wouldn't be the first time that donkey meat has been in British shops, the supermarkets were stocking smoked sausages containing donkey ages ago.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: andrewc on 11 February, 2013, 06:43:22 pm
Tesco Value stuff now as well.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21418342 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21418342) 



Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rogerzilla on 11 February, 2013, 06:49:51 pm
Ah...spaghetti bologneighs.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: andyoxon on 11 February, 2013, 06:50:44 pm
This horse meat saga is going to run and run...
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 11 February, 2013, 06:53:09 pm
I've just learned that the French supplier involved in the entire sordid business is called Spanghero.  I find this strangely pleasing, and wonder whether Frying Pans are involved ;D
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: spesh on 11 February, 2013, 07:03:26 pm
I've just learned that the French supplier involved in the entire sordid business is called Spanghero.  I find this strangely pleasing, and wonder whether Frying Pans are involved ;D

For some reason, Mystery Men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Men) springs to mind. Imagine a cross between Mr. Furious and The Shoveler...  ;D
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: andrewc on 11 February, 2013, 09:09:22 pm
(http://img.tesco.com/Groceries/pi/606%5C5000157071606%5CIDShot_225x225.jpg)

 ;D
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 11 February, 2013, 09:22:35 pm
yes Mr oxon the story is galloping away now :)
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Canardly on 11 February, 2013, 09:26:45 pm
But it cant go on furlong. What will the neighbours think?
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: madcow on 12 February, 2013, 10:58:42 am
I went to see Harry Hill last night.
His view was that the horses were sending a subliminal message via the lasagne packaging.
It wasn't Findus it was "Find us, were in here,  please  find us"
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: spesh on 12 February, 2013, 03:30:13 pm
(http://img.tesco.com/Groceries/pi/606%5C5000157071606%5CIDShot_225x225.jpg)

 ;D

ROFLMAO  ;D :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: spindrift on 12 February, 2013, 03:34:21 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BAvltYgCAAALk6P.jpg)
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Mr Larrington on 12 February, 2013, 03:57:32 pm
Unexpected item in the bagging area ;D
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Jaded on 13 February, 2013, 03:27:53 pm
(http://www.alfiecat.co.uk/yetacf/beetroot.jpg)
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 February, 2013, 03:55:19 pm
Probably.

It looked like this -
(http://www.camillasring.co.uk/SPONG%20MINCER.jpg)
 - but without the rust.
Inlaws have one like that (without rust and probably a bit newer) used mainly for non-meat mincing though.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 February, 2013, 03:57:14 pm
I read that FSA are now going to test all sorts of minced beef products for horse DNA. Surely this is missing the point? If un-certified horsemeat is entering products for human consumption, what's the likelihood other un-certified products are being kept out - cows with foot and mouth, etc?
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Jaded on 13 February, 2013, 03:58:29 pm
I though Tesco burgers already contained cows' feet and mouths?
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: simonp on 13 February, 2013, 04:12:49 pm
An old colleague of mine worked in a meat processing plant as a youngster. He is now vegetarian. It was the meat with tumours being put into the mincer that really put him off.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 13 February, 2013, 04:47:00 pm
As far as I know F&M is not a problem for humans, just very debilitating for the animals that suffer from it ie the skin on their tongues blister and can come away leaving a very sore mouth with the animal unable to eat or swallow hence the drooling the foot part of it is blisters appearing where the horn of the hoof meets the skin, again very uncomfortable for the animal,
FWIW towards the end of the last outbreak despite what the NFU, supermarkets & government announced to the press, farmers where on the verge of using vaccination but although supermarkets are happy to import & sell meat from south america where F&M is endemic & they vaccinate as a routine we could not get any assurance from the supermarkets that they would stock UK beef that had been vaccinated.:)
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 14 February, 2013, 01:01:59 pm
Ok so mechanically reclaimed meat or pink slime was banned a while ago due to a link with BSE, this proses was replaced with de sinewed meat
the difference one is done with high pressure water the other low pressure water, still the same shit going into our food.

   
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: clarion on 14 February, 2013, 03:15:59 pm
Is now a good time to mention that the Govt wish to relieve companies of the burden of red tape and excessive regulations?
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 14 February, 2013, 03:29:09 pm
possibly not just now,
but the thing that really gets me is that all these assurances we keep getting that this is not a health scare but more of a legal argument about labelling, the problem I have with that is, it doesn't matter how modern or how well equipped the testers are, if they're not looking for something they won't find it, for example if the meat is being tested for high levels of antibiotics they won't find bute however high the levels are because they're not looking for it, well they might be now? the other thing is what else is being substituted in the mix ? they've found horse & pig what next?
Thats what I think anyway.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: LEE on 14 February, 2013, 03:53:32 pm
if they're not looking for something they won't find it

Exactly this.

I expect I'm not alone in thinking that government scientists were beavering away testing everything on the Supermarket shelves for traces of bad stuff or wrong stuff.

It turns out that it's based on trust.  So presumably we're expected to sleep soundly knowing that our food safety is based on a Purchaser in Tescos asking some Romanian slaughterhouse "it's definitely made from mashed-up Cows is it?  Cross your heart and hope to die?  "

Ferchristssake, Findus BEEF Lasagne was 100% NOT BEEF.  We're not talking about finding traces of Horse DNA in Tesco Burgers here, we're talking about not being able to find and f***ing traces of Beef DNA in the Beef. 

The horses inside Findus Beef Lasagne had probably never seen a Cow.  Nobody in Findus had ever traced the main ingredient of their product back to source. 

Does anyone actually feel comfortable with this trust thing anymore?  Everyone OK trusting their health to large corporations?

Hopefully this will mean lots of our food gets tested...god only knows what they will find.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Ham on 14 February, 2013, 04:56:56 pm
if they're not looking for something they won't find it

Exactly this.

I expect I'm not alone in thinking that government scientists were beavering away testing everything on the Supermarket shelves for traces of bad stuff or wrong stuff.

It turns out that it's based on trust.  So presumably we're expected to sleep soundly knowing that our food safety is based on a Purchaser in Tescos asking some Romanian slaughterhouse "it's definitely made from mashed-up Cows is it?  Cross your heart and hope to die?  "

Ferchristssake, Findus BEEF Lasagne was 100% NOT BEEF.  We're not talking about finding traces of Horse DNA in Tesco Burgers here, we're talking about not being able to find and f***ing traces of Beef DNA in the Beef. 

The horses inside Findus Beef Lasagne had probably never seen a Cow.  Nobody in Findus had ever traced the main ingredient of their product back to source. 

Does anyone actually feel comfortable with this trust thing anymore?  Everyone OK trusting their health to large corporations?

Hopefully this will mean lots of our food gets tested...god only knows what they will find.

Sorry, but I'm not sure I agree with you at all. Unless there is a suggestion that health could have been compromised, which I don't think there is at present, I can't get worked up over it at all.

For the people who bought "beef" - you wanted cheap tasty meat protein, that's what you got. Buy a cheap chicken or cheap milk and you're likely to get as many if not more residual chemicals in your body. This was never about a gourmet experience, this is about cheap food, lets not lose sight of that.

I've had food from takeaways where the meat has been of dubious quality - a sort of reconstituted plasticy thing, I just don't go back. Does anyone really expect that the fatty crap on a stick called donner kebab is really lamb? We can all chose to eat it but lets not fool ourselves.

For those with more fundamental issues - jews, muslims - those that are concerned eat food from certified, supervised sources as they knew hundreds of years ago that if they don't know what meat it is ... the don't know what meat it is. Really, this is nothing new.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: LEE on 14 February, 2013, 05:17:32 pm

For the people who bought "beef" - you wanted cheap tasty meat protein, that's what you got.


So if you bought a cheap bike in a box and you got a skateboard you'd be OK?

It's clearly an issue if you can't trust food labelling.

It's clearly a potential health issue if you can't trust food labelling.

You're basically saying it's OK to give poor people any old shit, they won't mind.

People who bought "Beef" presumably wanted Beef.



Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Ham on 14 February, 2013, 05:35:48 pm
People who bought "Beef" presumably wanted Beef.

No. They wanted cheap and tasty brown meat protein that came up to their taste expectations and they felt they could afford. Yes, they were buying any old minced shit, getting it - at a price and taste that was satisfying is fair enough.

If I bought a bike and I got a skateboard, I'd be hacked off. But If I'd bought a means to pop down the road to the shops and I got a trike not a bike, I'd feel that was fair enough. (metaphor stretched a bit there)

The point about food safety is moot. I would argue strongly that the current standards of production of cheap foods - even if it is what it says on the tin - are such that there will always be the danger of health risks. That is why, having the financial ability to chose, I chose not to use them. As far as I am concerned, a whole chicken for £1 or whatever it is in Tesco just doesn't exist. If I couldn't afford to buy the meat I felt was responsibly produced, I wouldn't buy it at all, I would not replace it with cheap shit that could conceivable cause me and my family harm. When I was young, my family was not well off, we had meat only occasionally, what is so dreadful about that?

As I pointed out the religious groups know that if you want to be certain what you put in your mouth you have to watch it all the way. There is no alternative and that is not practical or reasonable for the normal populace.

(Not meant personally, just can't resist) Get off the high horse and look at what's happened realistically. Use that to inform your choices when you next buy food.

Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Ham on 14 February, 2013, 05:39:35 pm
Just like to clarify a bit - I really don't mean to criticise people's choices and it is right that this sort of furore happens to keep a measure of reality in the market place. But it will always be a risk, suggesting that it isn't is being blind to the consequences of the bottom end of the market driven economy.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Julian on 14 February, 2013, 06:03:41 pm
Thing is, it's not that cheap.  I don't know what a Findus ready meal lasagna costs (because they're out of stock!) but I've just looked online and a Tesco Beef Lasagne is £2.40, which is £5.34 / kg.  Well, you can get mince for £3.50ish / kg, pasta sheets and chopped tomatoes are pennies - it works out cheaper to make your own by quite a lot.

I assume as a branded name, Findus would be more expensive than the Tesco ready meals too.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Ham on 14 February, 2013, 06:17:17 pm
Thing is, it's not that cheap.  I don't know what a Findus ready meal lasagna costs (because they're out of stock!) but I've just looked online and a Tesco Beef Lasagne is £2.40, which is £5.34 / kg.  Well, you can get mince for £3.50ish / kg, pasta sheets and chopped tomatoes are pennies - it works out cheaper to make your own by quite a lot.

I assume as a branded name, Findus would be more expensive than the Tesco ready meals too.

Yes you may be able to get mince for 3.50 /Kg.... that's my point. Look at what the farmers get http://www.eblex.org.uk/markets/deadweight_cattle.aspx £3.50 retail is less. The consequences follow as night follows day.

Then you get onto convenience and prepared foods, and that's another story again. Mostly in the UK, a very good story, but the further you remove yourself from food production and preparation, the more risk you accept. When you combine that risk with downward pressure on prices, again the results are inevitable.

Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: spesh on 14 February, 2013, 06:18:07 pm
Thing is, it's not that cheap.  I don't know what a Findus ready meal lasagna costs (because they're out of stock!) but I've just looked online and a Tesco Beef Lasagne is £2.40, which is £5.34 / kg.  Well, you can get mince for £3.50ish / kg, pasta sheets and chopped tomatoes are pennies - it works out cheaper to make your own by quite a lot.

I assume as a branded name, Findus would be more expensive than the Tesco ready meals too.

If you go for the frozen meals, a Tesco "Everyday Value Beef Lasagne" is £1.00 for 400g.  :o
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: simonp on 14 February, 2013, 06:18:41 pm
Horsemeat is 1/5 of the cost of beef. It's fraud pure and simple.

And they have found bute in horse carcasses, so it has entered the human food chain. It also as others have carefully explained undermines any concept of traceability in the system.

Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Ham on 14 February, 2013, 06:25:40 pm
Yes it is fraud, but pure and simple? No, I don't think there is just one problem here.

There is one problem with horse derived stuff being added, after it has had some kind of magic wand waved over it - no better no worse than bulking up with the million other things that go into processed food

There is another problem where unscrupulous vendors substitute horse for cow. That is out and out fraud, and as I point out unless you watch all the people all the time you will never prevent that. In the scale of things there are worse crimes, and it doesn't invalidate the whole mechanism, just means that there are criminals - no surprise there then.

The bute? is it any better or worse than the hormones and antibiotics that are otherwise commonly used? I genuinely don't know, but I doubt that the exposure through a lasagne is going to be material, certainly little worse than the lungfulls of shit I voluntarily inhale each time I ride to work.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Biggsy on 14 February, 2013, 06:34:00 pm
BBC reported: You'd need to eat 500-600 burgers to get one dose of bute, if bute was present in the meat.  I don't know if that's a horse dose or a human dose!
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 14 February, 2013, 08:25:27 pm
Ham don't be fooled and think that this is a problem for the lower quality meat alone, it all comes from the same abattoirs.

when the farmers were protesting back in the 90's a small group of farmers found several tonnes of meat clearly marked up as produce of Argentina, this was followed down the packing line and just a few feet from were it started out it miraculously turned into prime British Beef, pictures were taken along with other evidence, IIRC it was heading for Tesco. 
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Ham on 14 February, 2013, 08:46:07 pm
No, I'm not assuming that it is a problem for cheap meat only, as I said there will always be a criminal element and if the meat is sold for more, why the profits of the crime are greater. But, I really think that for the most part the traceability of raw product works well - processed food is one stage removed.

I mostly work on what it tastes like, rather than what happens to be on the label. From my experience, shopping in Tesco, Sainsbury etc the quality is fairly random. When I buy meat, I expect that the price I pay (or to be exact, that was originally on the packaging) could provide a British farmer with the ability to produce it humanely. I expect that it tastes good, and like the animal I expect.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: andyoxon on 14 February, 2013, 09:00:51 pm
In the supermarket this pm. and didn't think this issue would bother me, but definitely found myself looking at some meat products thinking 'I wonder what's in that - perhaps I'll leave it'...
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Arch on 14 February, 2013, 09:44:06 pm
BBC reported: You'd need to eat 500-600 burgers to get one dose of bute, if bute was present in the meat.  I don't know if that's a horse dose or a human dose!

I heard that report - they said one human dose.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rafletcher on 15 February, 2013, 08:44:40 am

For the people who bought "beef" - you wanted cheap tasty meat protein, that's what you got.


So if you bought a cheap bike in a box and you got a skateboard you'd be OK?

It's clearly an issue if you can't trust food labelling.

It's clearly a potential health issue if you can't trust food labelling.

You're basically saying it's OK to give poor people any old shit, they won't mind.

People who bought "Beef" presumably wanted Beef.

ALL QA systems are based on "trust", including those for all the drugs we use. Whatever auditing is done is done against agreed systems of work, and designed to avoide mistakes.  It will never guard against deliberate fraud, which is what the horsemeat issue would appear to be. (Having pork DNA in beef products may be an issue for soem religious groups, but how much pork does "DNA" represent. That may just be insufficient/inefficient housekeeping).

Of course, the pressure put on suppliers by the retailers (and it's not just Tesco is it - despite Morrisons claims in their recent ads over beef I've no doubt their buyers are just as ruthless) to deliver to a price point makes it attractive to use cheaper ingredients, and to do so fraudulently - but I for one would happily have more leaner horsemeat in place of more expensive de-sinewed beef.
Not that I buy much processed meat - probably only in ravioli or similar.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Jaded on 15 February, 2013, 08:56:30 am
Auditing against systems of work needs to be combined with random spot checks to be properly effective.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Ham on 15 February, 2013, 11:04:48 am
Having pork DNA in beef products may be an issue for soem religious groups, but how much pork does "DNA" represent. That may just be insufficient/inefficient housekeeping).


As I pointed out earlier, the most religious jews and muslims insist on supervising the preparation of food throughout with physical presence in the slaghterhouse or wherever (applies to ALL prepared foods, not just meat), and the product is then sealed to provide proof. Largely because, for those groups however little the pig DNA it is just not acceptable to them. If they have not got full supervision from beginning to end of the process it is just not good enough. There is consequent substantial increase in cost. Read here, for example, http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/116003/jewish/Food-Technology-Kashrut.htm an article which addresses the questions of modern day processing to the religious.

There is a strong lesson and message there for the rest of us. IF you want that level of certainty in your food, there is only one way to do it, and it is bloomin' expensive. It's not a new process for them as a result of modern processing, it is just one of their tenets.

For the avoidance of doubt I do not want that level of certainty and I don't think anyone is really prepared to pay for it. What people  want is that level of certainty, at the prices they pay today, and that just ain't gonna happen.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Kathy on 15 February, 2013, 11:21:12 am
The problem with microbiological techniques that can pick up even traces of DNA is where do you stop? When I worked in agriculture, the tractor drivers used to have a joke. It went "How do you know when you've run over a rabbit with a combine harvester?" and the answer was "There's a loud BANG and the grain turns briefly red." They reckoned that they would average one rabbit per field, and would also get numerous small creatures (field mice, voles, etc) which were too small to be noticed. And that's not even considering all the insects, worms, spiders...

So all "vegetarian" food, unless hand-picked by by people adhering to strict Jainist principles (it is Jains who sometimes sweep the floor in front of them to avoid squishing bugs isn't it?), will contain traces of animal DNA and protein. Is that a scandal?  ???
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 15 February, 2013, 12:11:51 pm
Horsemeat is 1/5 of the cost of beef. It's fraud pure and simple.

And they have found bute in horse carcasses, so it has entered the human food chain. It also as others have carefully explained undermines any concept of traceability in the system.
If food processors can put horse into their products, they can put other uncertified stuff in, for instance cows - but with bovine TB or BSE or whatever. And unless they are sufficiently compensated for not doing so - which might be the case in UK but certainly not everywhere - some will. In fact you might say it would be bad business practice not to!
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 15 February, 2013, 12:12:49 pm
So all "vegetarian" food, unless hand-picked by by people adhering to strict Jainist principles (it is Jains who sometimes sweep the floor in front of them to avoid squishing bugs isn't it?), will contain traces of animal DNA and protein. Is that a scandal?  ???
I sometimes wonder how many insects they squash inadvertently with their brushes.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: RJ on 15 February, 2013, 12:34:41 pm
Kathy raises an interesting question about how DNA work is reported in the media. Not all "traces" need be "significant". Though with this particular story we're not talking only traces.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rafletcher on 15 February, 2013, 03:12:38 pm
Kathy raises an interesting question about how DNA work is reported in the media. Not all "traces" need be "significant". Though with this particular story we're not talking only traces.

We are with the pork contamination I think - which could reasonably BE contamination. As could any similar "DNA" result - such as horse DNA from bulking powders. The horsemeat is no doubt deliberate - and widespread - fraud.

I wonder if cooking degrades Bute?
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: geraldc on 15 February, 2013, 04:50:54 pm
It's been going on for years with fish (white fish, subbing things in for cod). It's just with fish people don't tend to care. It all tastes pretty much the same.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: rogerzilla on 15 February, 2013, 04:57:10 pm
This does sound a bit like cheap pet food, which can contain all sorts of shite including, in the USA once, other people's euthanised pets.  I doubt that there is enough meat on a rat to bother chucking them into the brew, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of otherwise "unfit for human consumption" meat is.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 15 February, 2013, 09:25:50 pm
I'm glad you brought that up Roger :)
I know this is from the Guardian but It was just a quick google
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/mar/23/foodanddrink
I believe IIRC they pressure washed the meat to get rid of the purple spray denoting it as unfit for human consumption :)
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: drossall on 16 February, 2013, 12:19:45 am
The good news is that we needn't have worried about mad cow disease, as there wasn't any cow in the meat.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ian on 16 February, 2013, 08:15:39 pm
The problem with microbiological techniques that can pick up even traces of DNA is where do you stop? When I worked in agriculture, the tractor drivers used to have a joke. It went "How do you know when you've run over a rabbit with a combine harvester?" and the answer was "There's a loud BANG and the grain turns briefly red." They reckoned that they would average one rabbit per field, and would also get numerous small creatures (field mice, voles, etc) which were too small to be noticed. And that's not even considering all the insects, worms, spiders...

So all "vegetarian" food, unless hand-picked by by people adhering to strict Jainist principles (it is Jains who sometimes sweep the floor in front of them to avoid squishing bugs isn't it?), will contain traces of animal DNA and protein. Is that a scandal?  ???

Back when I was a tiny little student I had a holiday job in a flour mill. Rats and mice are pretty much endemic in flour mills (to the owner's credit they did go to great lengths to kill the little sods; there was a cat but it was predictably useless). One moment they're happily frolicking in the grain, the next they're going through the rollers (the rodents, not the cat). I'd certainly not be surprised if the flour had a significant level of rodent DNA (mind you, the white flour gets bleached with a good dose of chlorine, so I doubt any kind of DNA survived, for the proper rodenty goodness stick to wholemeal).

I'm not too bothered about eating horses. Generally, I'm trying to avoid eating animals that look cute, which is about all of them. But not horses. Great big horrid smelly things.

If there's anything to learn from all this, it's the contorted and comedic supply chains. For all the bureaucracy, it's quite clear that no one has a fucking clue what it actually is or where it came from. When I do eat meat, it's mostly in meat-shaped pieces, and I am beginning to wonder why I bother and go over the vegetarian side. Mind you, I had lentils the other night and spent the following day riding the devil's jetpack. Maybe it's best I stick to animal sources of protein.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Efrogwr on 17 February, 2013, 09:14:00 pm
Pete's Eats (Llanberis) is currently offering Red Dragon Pie; an even more blatantly misleading name. ;D
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 18 February, 2013, 08:33:50 am
some friends of ours own & run the Black Mountain Smoked thingymebob they were stopped from selling Dragon Sausages, because people thought they were buying sausages made from dragons. There's no hope really, is there ??
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Efrogwr on 18 February, 2013, 10:54:58 am
We'll, there was a real Dragon in Bethesda...

.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Rhys W on 22 February, 2013, 10:39:37 am
Poetic justice: clicky (no, go on, you'll laugh) (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2013/02/22/hungry-horse-in-north-wales-is-latest-to-take-beef-dish-from-menu-55578-32859498/).
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Rhys W on 22 February, 2013, 10:59:53 am
Until you put your foot in it. From wikipedia:

Quote
An estimated quantity of 0.8 milligrams of titanium is ingested by humans each day, but most passes through without being absorbed.

 :D
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 February, 2013, 11:02:24 am
Until you put your foot in it. From wikipedia:

Quote
An estimated quantity of 0.8 milligrams of titanium is ingested by humans each day, but most passes through without being absorbed.

 :D
Your titanium frame is made of cave man poo. Zoinks!
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: Karla on 22 February, 2013, 04:26:26 pm
Nobody has yet asked the important questions here: Do these dodgy horse burgers contain any clenbuterol and if so, can I still get some?
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: hellymedic on 22 February, 2013, 04:33:59 pm
Until you put your foot in it. From wikipedia:

Quote
An estimated quantity of 0.8 milligrams of titanium is ingested by humans each day, but most passes through without being absorbed.

 :D

Titanium dioxide is used to whiten some foods. It's an ingredient in my Thousand Island salad dressing...
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: andyoxon on 24 February, 2013, 05:29:35 pm
Horse goes into a pub.  Barman says 'sorry we don't serve food in here'...
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: ferret on 25 February, 2013, 09:01:23 am
Nobody has yet asked the important questions here: Do these dodgy horse burgers contain any clenbuterol and if so, can I still get some?

well apparently the stuff from Canada does :) http://canadianhorsedefencecoalition.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/canada-exports-toxic-horsemeat-to-europe/
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: clarion on 25 February, 2013, 11:04:17 am
You'll have to put your own jokes together (http://www.independent.ie/business/now-horsemeat-is-found-in-ikea-meatballs-say-czech-inspectors-29092473.html)
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: spesh on 25 February, 2013, 09:20:37 pm
Thet's foonny, I cuoold hefe-a svurn it seeed "muuse-a" oon zee peckegeeng (http://bestdemotivationalposters.com/the-swedish-chef/)...

Bork!
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: clarion on 06 March, 2013, 07:17:04 am
And IKEA's chocolate cakes are crap.
Title: Re: Beef burgers?
Post by: andrewc on 22 March, 2013, 08:55:42 pm
http://www.martinsjerkedmeat.com/osCommerce/index.php?cPath=54 (http://www.martinsjerkedmeat.com/osCommerce/index.php?cPath=54)    Horsemeat Jerky hmmm  I quite like Beef jerky....

Martin's Jerked Meat !  That's almost fit for NSFW   :D