How long to bend my legs?

[Wendy]

Forgive me butting in here - I'm just really interested in the physics of cycling, and bents are a fascinating aspect of that ...

What I would add to that, is that I'm surprised people don't notice benefits under 25mph. On uprights I notice a tow over, say, 15mph. By 20mph I can hang onto much stronger riders. Add a headwind to this

Me too, it's super interesting.  I didn't mean to imply earlier that there are no benefits under 25mph, but that the benefit of being on a low racer becomes irrefutably strong and immediately evident from 25mph and up.  I'd say there's still a definite benefit at 15mph, it's just much smaller.

A very good TT bike setup and a stock lowracer are probably not remarkably different, the lowracer might have a small edge I think.

[EdinburghFixed]

I notice most of all when the road turns down, and everybody stops pedalling - I have to play the brakes all the way down, or the bike just drops from the other riders like a stone.

If only I could pedal it as fast 

[stevedo]

I'd agree that there are benefits aerodynamically below 25 mph, and there are indisputable benefits if you live in a windy region, as I do.

It's just that if you also live in a hilly region, I feel those benefits are wiped out on many rides. When I had the Fujin I found myself starting to shy away from certain circuits, because the bike's strengths lay elsewhere. The Fujin was certainly much faster up a hill than the Nazca I had before, due to being lighter, but it was still slow. The weight didn't matter if it was a short or rolling hill that I could charge, but most of them aren't like that.

There's the problem, for me, anyway. You lose far more time on a slow ascent than you can ever regain on a fast descent.

Re trikes. An Ice Q26 is now my only recumbent, and I have to say that while I might miss the Fujin from time to time, I much prefer a trike. I haven't had any problems such as outlined earlier, though I think the furthest i've gone on it was 125 km. It's been great for touring and cols, if taken slowly. For me the pain comes if I try to push the pace uphill. I think it's just too heavy. I love it, though.

I have to say, though, that there seem to be plenty of riders here in France who do very well on hilly rides on lowracers.

[cycleman]

with the trike's i find that if i climb at the speed that it wants to climb as opposed to forcing it to climb faster it doesn't hurt. i am certainly faster now than i used to be . i agree the more miles the faster but i do not think it has to hurt on a trice unless you want it to  

[mAsTa RiDaH]

You can't argue with the laws of physics when it comes to Low Racers compared to a DF bike.

FWIW at a comfortable output I'm doing roughly 15mph on the trike, 16mph on the hack and 20mph on the Low Racer.

[tonycollinet]

Well that was interesting.

It was nice and sunny this afternoon - as a result, I've just been out for a spin for the first time in shorts, instead of the winter longs. It felt much easier. It could just be a coincidence (I've had good days before) but the longs (being quite thick material) are quite tight around the knee. Is it possible they are restricting blood flow a little?

[Kim]

Dunno about the longs, but the cold certainly could be...

[nashd]

I think I may have made a slight breakthrough.  I locked-down my pedals to eliminate any float, and I also installed new cleats. Based on some knee pain I experienced on the recent 200k, plus some other observations (I felt I was pedalling mainly with the outside edge of my feet), I wanted to try and increase the Q-factor, and also slightly rotate my toes outwards.  There wasn’t much room for adjustment with my cleats and shoes, but I maybe increased Q by a millimetre or two, and went with rotating the toes out as much as I could, although it seemed a tiny amount. 

The end result, based on 20 and 35 mile rides at the weekend, is that I’m now pushing on the pedals across the width of my feet, and getting more power into each pedal stroke.  It may be purely psychological, but I’m suffering less stress in my upper leg muscles, and I was able to keep the effort up, and even increase my speed slightly when I felt I was slowing.  A few times I even managed to ‘forget’ I was pedalling. 

It’s always difficult to compare rides due to differing weather conditions, but on the 20 mile ride my average was 17.1mph, whereas I rode the same route last week at 15.2mph.  The 35 mile (hillier) ride was 15.2mph last week, when I really suffered from sore glutes – this week, despite a stronger wind, my average speed was up to 15.8mph, with no pain.  When I got home my legs felt like they’d had a good workout, but nothing worse than that. 

I think speed on a trike requires seriously strong leg muscles.  Hopefully, a lot more miles over the next few months will help me.  I think I need to increase my average speeds by around 2mph to get to a level similar to normal bike speeds.  I’m not sure if that’s going to be possible – it seems like a big increase.  However, if I can cycle at those sorts of speeds I’ll probably have the strength and speed to make decent progress at less effort during audaxes and longer rides.

[EdinburghFixed]

Blimey.

I came on here to report that I'm getting on nicely with my right pedal extender and romped around my fastest 200km brevet yet (despite a blowout on a cattle grid and a dodgy cleat killing my knee) but I wasn't going much faster than you manage on the trike!

I averaged 16.8mph moving for a total time-in-motion of around 7:40.

[nashd]

There’s a lot of difference between a training ride and an audax, especially an AAA one like the Dave Harris.  16.8mph is seriously fast!  I don’t think I’ll ever be able to do something like that, but on an audax I’m just looking to ride at a fairly decent pace, well within my limits, and without feeling like I’m constantly flogging myself.  You saw how slow I was on the Nippy Sweetie, although I later discovered my right brake was binding! 

Did you fit the pedal extender in order for your leg to clear the Raptobike’s idlers, or was it to increase the Q-factor?  I’ll see how I get on over the next few rides, but I did think about buying a pair of those because my cleats have very little sideways movement, and I seem to need a wider Q on the recumbent for some reason.

[recumbentim]

I would say 1000 miles.Then you will get a slow improvement over the next 20,000 miles which will be mainly due to fitness.

[Wothill]

Did you fit the pedal extender in order for your leg to clear the Raptobike’s idlers, or was it to increase the Q-factor?  I’ll see how I get on over the next few rides, but I did think about buying a pair of those because my cleats have very little sideways movement, and I seem to need a wider Q on the recumbent for some reason.

I understand your previous point about getting the pedal pressure even across the foot - sounds essential to me - but why do you want to increase the Q factor. Isn't it usually seen as a design goal to reduce the Q-factor?

[tonycollinet]

Well I went through the 500 mile mark on the trike this weekend. (total, not in one ride  )

It is much much better than at the start. I'm averaging about 13mph -(compared with closer to 11 when I first got the machine)

More importantly I still have legs left at the end of the ride. When I first started, I found the last few miles a desperate struggle to keep going. Now I have some spare capacity. Might try a longer ride next w/e.

[EdinburghFixed]

Did you fit the pedal extender in order for your leg to clear the Raptobike’s idlers, or was it to increase the Q-factor?  I’ll see how I get on over the next few rides, but I did think about buying a pair of those because my cleats have very little sideways movement, and I seem to need a wider Q on the recumbent for some reason.

I understand your previous point about getting the pedal pressure even across the foot - sounds essential to me - but why do you want to increase the Q factor. Isn't it usually seen as a design goal to reduce the Q-factor?

My extender is just to clear the drivetrain and get my foot engaging squarely with the pedal. I think up until now there has been an element of rolling over my ankle to the outside, but I only realised when I switched to Look pedals and rigid road shoes (and got a killer pain down the outside of my right foot).

As for Q factor itself, I have no opinion. Lots of stuff seems really important (saddle height 5mm etc) that seem bizarre once you get laid back.

[Tigerrr]

I switched from carbon bling roadbikes to recumbents 5 yrs ago, initially with a heavy speedmachine and then a lightweight fujin.
The key to recumbent speed is a combination of terrain, bike type, leg strength and ride length.
The point of recumbents for me is to be travelling at the highest possible speed - to benefit from disproportionate aero benefit.
A higher heavier bike will sap the riders power on uphills leading to a gradual draining of strength until overall speed drops below the aero advantage - at which point the recumbent becomes slower in every way, and longer rides can become hell - although shorter ones may be very flattering. Even strong legs will eventually be drained out by longer hillier rides so they are best avoided. I would not ride my speedmachine on any ride of any length although it blasts around town very well.
A lower lighter bike will sap the rider on uphills - but less - and will payback better on flat and downs - enabling more time in aero advantage and an overall faster time. A bit of leg fitness added will enable both exilerating sprints and higher cruise speed leading to recumbent bliss. That was my experience audaxing the fujin - I found I could go far and fast, with occasional extreme fasts. Eventually though tiredness would lower the cruise speed to below aero, or the hills would empty the legs with the same effect. Fitness has a disproportionate effect on the lighter bike, especially if body weight is also reduced as the hills then shrink.
I think of it like flying - the recumbent has to be lifted up to takeoff speed in order to perform, and you have to be fit enough or terrain-savvy enough to keep it there for as long as possible. If you can do that (bent legs) you are flying. If terrain, fitness, or weight drag you down you are grounded, in which case you have lost all advantage' Once 'grounded',  the recumbent is an instrument of torture and will make you weep.

[nashd]

The reason I was thinking about pedal extenders is that I was trying to get my feet sitting flatter on the pedals.  I sat in a chair and ‘analysed’ my feet position with my legs stretched out, and it appeared that if I moved my legs outwards in an arc, I changed from putting pressure on the outside edge of my feet to having a squarer stance.  I think I’ve pretty much achieved my aim with rotating my toes outwards. However, my heel is fairly close to the crank arms, plus my cleats are at the limit of their adjustment range, so if I need any further changes then I think I’ll be looking at trying pedal extenders. 

Tigerr, I think I’m beginning to experience what you describe.  I still have a long way to go (I hope!) but on the last couple of rides when I felt like I was up to ‘flying’ speed, my legs were able to keep the thing running at a good clip.  Having said that, I've also been 'grounded' on an 'instrument of torture'!

I don’t like what you say about long rides, though!  I’ve just entered a 300k (beginning of April) and I suspect my legs will peter out well before the finish.

As a matter of interest, do you tend to attack hills, or do you back off (to save your legs) and try to make up the time on the flats?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Widening your stance isn't the best solution for the situation you describe. Have you thought about cleat wedges?
Bikefit System Wedges | CycleFit

[Tigerrr]

Re hills:

Rollers are great - you can use the down speed and aero advantage momentum to mash a higher gear longer - and thus keep the speed up. Dunwich Dynamo for instance is brill for this.

Short hills can be attacked a bit - use the speed to keep momentum up - and mash up the hill using strong legs before your oxygen intake fails.

Longer hills have to be spun up, keeping just inside the blowout - which is where the fitness is needed - as if you blowout you lose all speed and also empty the legs.  Sometimes you may pass an unfit upright if you do this right - I managed that last weekend on Box hill!

I admit that I used to plot the audax routes on Memory map and then replot diversions to go around or reduce the hills. I would always try and go around a hill if possible.  Or start 20 mins early to get up the first hill before the bunch so as not to get dropped.  These techniques are generally called Larringtons.

[nashd]

Thanks, LittleWheelsandBig.  I was aware of wedges, but never thought I might need them.  I’ll see how I get on over the next few rides, and if I feel I need to make further alterations I’ll try them.

@Tigerrr – thanks for the tips.  I’ve used similar techniques on a fixie, so I’ll just do what feels natural.  I think things will improve once my recumbent legs develop.

I’m afraid it’s not always easy to avoid hills on the audaxes local-ish to me.  However, I’m wondering if a full race fairing with a hidden power assist might be considered a Larrington…

[EdinburghFixed]

Irrespective of the type of bike you ride, you'll always get more bang for your buck on the uphill than elsewhere.

Suppose you average 15mph on a ride. Every 4 minutes longer spent climbing puts you a mile behind - which means you need to average an extra 1mph on the flat *for an hour* to catch back up.

It's easily done too. Imagine a hilly section just one mile long - suppose you climb at 6mph for a total time of 10 minutes, or at 10mph for a total time of 6 minutes... welcome to your catch-up hour of pain!

In contrast, say you spend the effort instead by riding at 22mph instead of 20mph - quite a big increase in power. To open up a gap of one mile will require holding this effort for 30 minutes - five times longer than the 6 minute intense climb.

Personally, I try to idle on the flats and downhills early on a ride, but will attack the hills. So long as you don't go crazy and waste your legs trying to hill-race up the opening 5km ;-)

[Mr Larrington]

I’m afraid it’s not always easy to avoid hills on the audaxes local-ish to me.  However, I’m wondering if a full race fairing with a hidden power assist might be considered a Larrington…

Clip-one wheel discs plus a Heinzmann hub motor...

[tom_e]

Irrespective of the type of bike you ride, you'll always get more bang for your buck on the uphill than elsewhere.

Definitely agree - if you want to get over a hilly route quicker, an even steady effort is not the best.  I surprised myself with my quickest time ever on current commute sprinting like a loon up hills and being very lazy indeed down them.

It's true on upright too, but I think even more so on bent.  My uphill benting improved greatly when I trained myself to get a decent torque all the way round the pedal stroke, not just stomping on the push.  YMMV.

Like Tigerrr says, you need to keep just below your limit on longer hills.  But if you're trying to go a long way quickly and economically then don't waste your energy pedalling hard where you're already travelling pretty quick - save it for the slow bits.  (I think this is one of the secrets of those long range fixie people, they are forced into this)

[EdinburghFixed]

I'd say a good rule of thumb is to stop pedalling at 25mph, unless you're going to be able to burn up a hill (in which case, charge at it!)

This is advice I often fail to follow

[Kim]

^  This.

[Wothill]

I'd say a good rule of thumb is to stop pedalling at 25mph, unless you're going to be able to burn up a hill (in which case, charge at it!)

This is advice I often fail to follow

Me too. Pedalling at 40mph is a fantastic feeling, especially when you overtake someone who is also pedalling but only doing 25!

I take the point about uneven effort, but if it's a long hill it would be unwise to risk blowing up by attacking it too hard, especially when there are another five such hills and 300k still to go. On a long ride I tend to avoid power levels that I just feel will burn me out too soon. Uphill, that tends to result in me falling back relative to the majority of uprights.