Can't walk too well but just discovered 'bent trikes :) advice for disabled ride

[Datbloke]

Hi folks,

Came across YACF whilst doing some research on recumbent trikes and it seems like a good community with a solid base of knowledge and informed and fun people. Maybe some of you have come across some of the issues I'm trying to work through so I decided to sign up and ask ..

I suffer muscle atrophy which affects the back of my body and is very disabling, leading to spinal, pelvic and respiratory issues. The docs aren't getting far so after ten years of atrophy I'm down to walking relatively short distance with a stick and my spine is doing an impression of a chicane. I decided I needed to find a way to exercise, travel further than the local shops and gain the physical and psychological benefits that having a sense of being in charge (to some degree) over my health will bring.

And that's what started me looking at bent trikes: stability, support for my back and neck and building self-reliance through getting out there.

I've done a fair bit of research and I've gotten to ride on an ICE Adventure RS and a KMX Cobra.

The ICE Adventure RS was just amazing, can't begin to describe the sense of liberty trundling up Devon hills at 2mph and racing down them at 25 gave me ... but if you're reading this you probably already know that! The suspension meant no knocks to my back and spine, headrest gave essential neck support. Mesh seat was good for extra cushioning from knocks but maybe a hardshell would give better spine support, especially on turns?

I found the KMX Cobra to be far from comfortable: no suspension, box frame translated every groove in the road into painful shocks and the elevated front boom exacerbated pelvic/lumbar spine problems merely due to the angle between legs and body it created.

And so I find myself eyeing up the ICE website and catalogue, trying to refine options and working out where I'm going to get the moolah from.

There's a few things I'm going to need to add specifically to cope with my disabilities and I'm pretty sure I can get VAT exemption on those which will help. If I chose to get a Motobility car the whole thing would be exempt .. it's annoying me that the purchase of a trike for the purposes of rehab and improved mobility isn't fully exempt ... a car would get me around but not rebuild muscle (and I know a bent trike will, because even though I only managed three miles on my first out I felt the burn and my (lack of) aerobic fitness.

Does anyone have any experience/knowledge of the potential for VAT exemption?

Also ICE are clearly fantastically well engineered but soooo pricey - and their US pricing policy I don't get: the Adventure RS is nearly £500 cheaper bought in $ rather than £. Yet I only live an hour from their factory!

So another question: is there anything out there comparable to ICE in terms of design, engineering and build quality that you would advise considering?

I've seen a lot of "Performa" bent trikes on eBay from Australia that on the surface have many of the same features for half or even one third the cost - does anyone have first hand experience of this manufacturer?

I'm going to take a train to Falmouth and see the guys at ICE hopefully so I can try Adventure vs Sprint models and also the hardshell seat and talk things through with them.

Any other general or specific advice you can offer from first hand experience would be welcomed. It strikes me from reading this and other forums that many people buying recumbent trikes are doing so for health reasons or disability - though I'm sure many fully able and healthy people just love them too.

Oh! Last thought: front suspension - use value over maintenance pita?

Kind regards,

Matthew
(Hilly South Devon)

[Auntie Helen]

Hi Matthew,

The guys at ICE will be brilliant with you and my advice is, if you can possibly scrape together the moolah then go for the ICE - their customer service is unbeatable and their trikes brill (I have done 25,000 miles in one and 20,000 in another, read all about it at www.auntiehelen.co.uk).

I would avoid KMX (but you've probably already decided this). Other options are the HP Velotechnik Skorpion from Germany (also pricey but current exchange rate might help) and the Steintrikes Wild One from Austria which has cracking suspension but you don't see in the UK. I have experience with these two but not the Catrike and the Greenspeeds which others might recommend. Avoid TW Bents and KMX.

as for front suspension, I didn't think it necessary for me but with your back it might be helpful, although the main jiggling without it seems to be to my teeth!

VAT exemption is indeed possible - Kim on here was able to get this for a new ICE sprint but she bought from a dealer, not ICE directly, as they didn't handle this themselves. She will probably be along in due course.

The $ amount might be because the pound is really strong at the moment - I'm getting 1.25€ to £1 at the moment, a few months ago it was 1.18€. for an expensive trike this adds up to quite a difference!

Good luck, you won't regret an ICE. Have you thought about second hand?

[Datbloke]

Hi Helen,

Thanks for your speedy and helpful reply

All things considered if I can get an ICE I will, if for no other reason than being an hour from the factory means troubles can be rectified more simply than with a bike from far afield.

I saw Kim (I think) had written this in a post about fitting a Falco motor (something else on my ideal list):

This seemed like an excellent job for electric assist - to give a little more speed and make the local hills less of a barrier.  And HMRC were paying.

Wasn't sure if that was exemption or due to employment at HMRC but figured an answer would come ....

I've read lots of your posts and they always seem full of sunshine, I'll pop over and take a read of your blog later.

Kindly,

Matthew

[barakta]

Hi Matthew,

I'm Kim's partner, the person she added the Falco motor for.  I have various impairments in my shoulders/arms which make an upright bike very difficult to use and I have balance issues too so a trike was our ideal solution to get me onna bike. I also have issues with my hips (which I need to get sorted with medics but boring) so can't walk as far as I'd like but do keep myself walking 1-2km a day by walking to work which is about manageable for now

Kim will be along in a few hours and will be able to give you more detail (and links to past posts for a good old read).

We got my trike from London Recumbents who were able to give me VAT exemption because modified the trike for my use (put dual brakes on one side), I think I used my DLA letters as proof.  I think you have to do some kind of mod for anyone to be able to give you VAT off but I know Kim did more research there.

HMRC "paid" for my trike's motor in the sense of them paying me £7,500 to "settle" when I sued them for disability discrimination last year. I don't know if we were able to get VAT off the motor cos of the specificity of use stuff.   

Welcome to YACF you're in a good place where people in my experience have quite a lot of clue and are very disability friendly. 

Natalya aka barakta

[Datbloke]

Hi Natalya,

Thanks for your reply - it sounds like we've got a lot of the same bits not working! My hips and shoulders are shot too ...

I've read lots of Kim's posts and enjoyed them - full of information and joy. Read through the whole Falco install and was very impressed. E-assist is on my ideal list, firstly because it's hilly down here and, secondly, because it would give me confidence to go further and feel I could get home safely. Ideally I'd build it in from scratch (or rather have it installed) but .. All comes down to cost and what I can realistically afford.

Sorry to hear you were discriminated against and glad to hear you got your dues from them.

Kindly,

Matthew

[Auntie Helen]

Matthew, I was talking with ICE at SPEZI (the German weird bike exhibition) in April - they conveniently came to fairly near me! - and I specifically talked electric assist with them as it's something that's clearly going to be significant in the future. At the moment about 50% of all bikes sold in Germany (normal bikes) have e-assist and there are charging stations everywhere, including in my local village.

Anyway, Elliot at ICE said they hadn't yet found an e-assist option that was bombproof enough for them to sell with the trikes but they had recently been trying out something (I don't know what) that looked like it might work out. So it's clearly something they're working on at the moment. They'll obviously be able to update you with where they are now at.

I did see some e-assist ICE trikes that ICLETTA (the German distributor) had as they tend to buy in the trikes from ICE and change bits anyway before they sell them on (they have an obsession about changing the idler and they also like to fit SRAM Dual-drive hub gears in the back to go with the derailleur so there is just a single chainring on the front, or a Rohloff). Anyway, they had an e-assist Adventure on the stand too and it was interesting to see that the batteries were fitted very low down, which I guess helps the centre of gravity. The guy at ICE looked slightly less than delighted with the option they had chosen but ICE are very picky about quality!

I am sure that everyone at ICE will be very helpful to you as they've always been brilliant with me. Good luck with the VAT thing!

[Kim]

We got my trike from London Recumbents who were able to give me VAT exemption because modified the trike for my use (put dual brakes on one side), I think I used my DLA letters as proof.  I think you have to do some kind of mod for anyone to be able to give you VAT off but I know Kim did more research there.

Yes, you needed a disability-specific modification to qualify for a VAT exemption, which is silly when an unmodified trike is what's needed for your disability.  For reference, barakta's has modified hand controls - both front brakes on one lever on the right hand side, twist grip and bar end shifter (itself modified for extra leverage) on that side too, and creative use of a mountain bike bar end on the left to serve as a hand rest.  After chatting to London Recumbents, they were willing to bend the rules and sell us the trike as a kit of parts, so I could do the modifications myself (taking time with barakta to get the angles right and so on, rather than doing the work and us potentially having to alter things anyway).

I'm not sure, but suspect the rules on VAT exemptions have tightened since then, and may only apply to the cost of the modification itself.  Otherwise the usual dodge for someone with a condition like yours would be to fit a device for carrying walking sticks...

HMRC "paid" for my trike's motor in the sense of them paying me £7,500 to "settle" when I sued them for disability discrimination last year. I don't know if we were able to get VAT off the motor cos of the specificity of use stuff.

No VAT off the motor.  I didn't even bother asking.  There may have been a mistake on the customs declaration for the battery that lead to less duty charges.  I couldn't possibly comment.   

I think ICE are leaning towards mid-drive motors (ie. those that provide drive through the chain and gears) for their e-assist, which makes a lot of engineering sense.  Barakta and I opted for a hub motor on the basis that it's much simpler (a wheel-swap) to remove the electrickery when desired.  I'm not surprised that the batteries were fitted low down on a ICLETTA modified version - having a large^[1] battery high up on the rear luggage rack like barakta's has ruins the cornering stability of the trike (we decided this was an acceptable compromise for the convenience of ease of battery removal, as we have to carry the trike through a doorway every time we use it).


More generally, I second Auntie Helen's advice to try and get a test ride on a Scorpion.  I ride a HPVelotechnik Strreetmachine (its bicycle relative), and while HPV don't know the meaning of 'lightweight', they really know their suspension systems.  Probably worth having a go on a Catrike too, if only to get a feel for the difference that direct steering makes.

If getting in and out of a low seat is an issue then you'll probably prefer the ICE Adventure over the Sprint, in spite of the sprint having better handling on the downhills.  By the same logic, it might be worth considering delta trikes like the Kettwiesel, which have an even higher riding position.  Again, a Kettwiesel's one of those that's worth having a play with just to appreciate the different handling - the long wheelbase delta geometry means it can turn on a sixpence - awesome fun.

Hardshell vs mesh seats is another one to consider.  Hardshell has to be *just right* to be properly comfortable (so you'll probably end up fiddling about adding and removing foam padding), but is more supportive when you do get it right.  Mesh (at least a highly adjustable design like ICE's) is easier to tweak, and ventilates better, but you'll probably find yourself having to tighten up straps occasionally.  A thick Ventisit pad will probably provide the same sort of suspension effect with a hardshell seat as you get from mesh (it's by far the best seat pad material from a moisture perspective too).  I haven't ridden a trike with a hardshell seat, so I can't really comment about the effect of sideways forces when cornering - that's not an issue on a bike.


_{[1] Barakta's battery is unusually large, at about 12.5kg (including case and electronics).  I wanted her to have a 100km range, and we opted for a heavier battery chemistry that deteriorates less with use.  Most off-the-shelf e-assist systems use much smaller batteries.}

[Auntie Helen]

I haven't ridden a trike with a hardshell seat, so I can't really comment about the effect of sideways forces when cornering - that's not an issue on a bike.

I did just this a couple of days ago - I rode a Steintrikes Wild One trike with hard shell seat (with Ventisit pad on it).

I can confirm that it holds you fairly well in a straight line but if you're a lardarse lady like me, whose generous backside is hanging over both sides of the hard shell seat, cornering makes you feel like you might fall completely out. Which makes for an increased amusement factor but is not ideal. When I got back onto my ICE Sprint I realised how comfy its seat is!

[Kim]

Generous backsides are supposed to hang over the edges of a hardshell seat.  It's how you get the best comedy chilblains, and isn't actually a falling-out problem - at least not on a bicycle.

I've noticed that a lot of trike hardshell seats have extra side pieces attached, presumably to reduce the sliding-out feeling on corners or silly cambers.  Not sure how well that works with a generous backside, though.  The owners have all been skinny blokes.

[Auntie Helen]

This is the problem - the usual owners of these vehicles are blokes who all have skinner arses anyway.

I found it quite hard to sit down onto the Wild One because of not having anything to hold on to (the front crosspiece is extremely complicated) and ended up landing in rather a hurry. If this was the ICE Vortex seat I would have smashed it into carbon smithereens.

This is the particular Wild One:



This is a library shot - you'll see what I mean about the complex front suspension.



The suspension works well (you can't get it up on two wheels) but makes the steering feel marginally less precise - getting back on the ICE Sprint after riding this felt really twitchy!

Look how unwide that seat is though - the problem with hard shells, I think. It was not comfortable riding with my backside spread across it as I was partially perched on two edge pieces of the seat.

I should probably attempt to remove some of the lard from the arse but there are too many nice cakes in Germany for this to be a likely option.

[Kim]

Thing with hardshells is they're not so much a chair as a device for supporting the spine/pelvis/shoulders while you push against the pedals.  As with the saddle of an upright bike, what the lardy bits do is pretty much irrelevant.  Feels weird at first, but it's fine once you get used to it (assuming of course that it fits properly and you're not sliding about - a badly fitting hardshell is almost as unpleasant as a badly fitting saddle).

Not having anything to hold onto as you get in and out of the seat can be a problem with tadpoles (the wheels can work if there aren't any mudguards and you have a means of locking the front brakes on).  ICE now have accessory handles for the Adventure for the purpose.

[Tigerbiten]

The hardshell seat on my Sprint has love handles that hold you in place under hard cornering.
They are bolted either side so the width can be adjusted to fit your lard.

My first Q had no front suspension, my Sprint does.
The front suspension doesn't do much for road buzz, this is more down to the tyres and what pressure you run at.
Where it does help is if one front wheel goes over a bump, speed pillow, sunken manhole cover at speed. You don't get thrown off line as much.
If the potholes get to big, then nothing really helps bar slowing right down.

[Datbloke]

Wow! That's a great help and a lot to take in - I'll post a full reply in the morning as I've had a long day but thank you again Helen, thank you Kim and Tigerbiten. I'm off to the ICE factory this Thursday for some test rides - they really are super supportive, as are you kind folk


M

[Kim]

The front suspension doesn't do much for road buzz, this is more down to the tyres and what pressure you run at.
Where it does help is if one front wheel goes over a bump, speed pillow, sunken manhole cover at speed. You don't get thrown off line as much.
If the potholes get to big, then nothing really helps bar slowing right down.

That's interesting.  I know that road buzz can be greatly improved on the rear-suspension-only Sprint by running Kojaks on the front wheels at *just* the right pressure.

Getting jarred sideways (in a way that just doesn't happen on a two-wheeler) because you've failed to avoid a pothole, bump, manhole, bit of wood, etc. can be quite unpleasant.  Barakta jarred her shoulder doing that a couple of weeks ago, which is I think the first time she's actually had an arm problem exacerbated by riding the trike.  I wonder if a Scorpion or Wild One would fare any better with the greater travel afforded by coil spring suspension over the ICE elastomer.

[tonycollinet]

I've got nothing to add re disability adjustments - you are already speaking to the experts here.

But ICE are a marvellous company - always willing to give phone/email advice, and don't rip you off for spares when you need them. They also ship spares very quickly.

And the machines are the best. I tried a few at D-tek when I was buying mine, and the ICE was streets ahead of the rest for responsiveness and "feel"

[Kim]

And the machines are the best. I tried a few at D-tek when I was buying mine, and the ICE was streets ahead of the rest for responsiveness and "feel"

I think that's probably true, assuming that you're definitely after a tadpole trike.  (Deltas having certain killer advantages, not limited to a higher seat, ease of hand-crank conversion, and ability to couple in tandem.  And bicycles are always going to be more efficient and easier to store and transport.)

The Sprint and Adventure are fantastic all-rounders, and I don't think there's anything current in quite the same league as the VTX.

Which isn't to say that there's anything wrong with a HPVelotechnik or Catrike, if you find those better suited to your style of riding.

[Auntie Helen]

That's interesting.  I know that road buzz can be greatly improved on the rear-suspension-only Sprint by running Kojaks on the front wheels at *just* the right pressure.

I didn't know this! What is *just* the right pressure as I'm about to put Kojaks on my RS Sprint? I was planning to do it sometime but was just driving back from Viersen with the Sprint in the car, was waiting at some traffic lights and BANG HISSSSSSS one of the trike's front wheels deflated completely. So I might as well stick the Kojaks on now and see how I get on with them. But any extra hint 'n tip for maximum comfort would be good.

Klaus (owner of Wild One) showed me the Kojaks he took off his Wild One (which has 18 inch front wheels so not much choice of tyre). They were down to the canvas and that was after 3,700km so that's a fairly quick wear, especially considering here in Germany we don't have top dressing/chipseal and generally have very good quality surfaces.

We also bumped into another Sprint rider who also lives in Viersen (Klaus has never seen him before - it was clearly my magic presence that facilitated the meeting). This guy has an 80km round trip ride to work in Düsseldorf and had a very pricey Sprint - 5000€. It had a Rohloff, a Windwrap fairing, but (surprisingly) drum brakes so no SON dynohub. It also had the new ICE rack which I don't like as much as mine as you have to remove it to take off the seat.

[Kim]

That's interesting.  I know that road buzz can be greatly improved on the rear-suspension-only Sprint by running Kojaks on the front wheels at *just* the right pressure.

I didn't know this! What is *just* the right pressure as I'm about to put Kojaks on my RS Sprint? I was planning to do it sometime but was just driving back from Viersen with the Sprint in the car, was waiting at some traffic lights and BANG HISSSSSSS one of the trike's front wheels deflated completely. So I might as well stick the Kojaks on now and see how I get on with them. But any extra hint 'n tip for maximum comfort would be good.

A bit lower than you might expect.  Try something in the 80PSI range, and experiment from there.  Obviously too low puts you at risk of pinch flats.

They're not the most puncture-proof tyres in the world, and useless off-road, but they're fast and grippy on tarmac.

[Auntie Helen]

I'm hoping that here in Germany with the smooth roads and lack of hawthorn hedges the Kojaks will work well. We shall see! I'm sure they'll be better than the Panaracer Minits Tough I used last year (they can't be worse!)

[Quint]

Barbara had two Catrikes, while Paulo (the owner tried his best) the Catrike including the Pocket model that Barbara did one and a half barrel rolls on/off hurting herself badly was not a patch on the ICE that I bought her in a desperate attempt to reach our next wedding anniversary with her in one piece.
      The Catrike direct steering when you hit a bump at speed can go to lockout, as someone said on the Catrike forum "when this occurs you need a certain amount of strength to keep it online" this IMHO should not be needed and in fact after I rode  her Road on a twitchy little downhill road in Erquay, Brittany it scared the living s**t out of me, I rang Kevin ' D-tek from France and said "for f***s sake get me an ICE for her, he duly delivered a month later.
      Catrike have their devotees I found the Pocket and the Road (Free upgrade fromPaulo)  that Barbara owned quite dangerous compared to the ICE. This is my/our experience.

[Datbloke]

...
Anyway, Elliot at ICE said they hadn't yet found an e-assist option that was bombproof enough for them to sell with the trikes ...

I think for now electric assist is going to be out of my price range Helen .. first I have to get fit and out and about a bit .. can save up for some extra oomph once I'm there and being more adventurous

I am sure that everyone at ICE will be very helpful to you as they've always been brilliant with me. Good luck with the VAT thing!

They're being lovely so far. Looking forward to meeting them Thursday.

Yes, you needed a disability-specific modification to qualify for a VAT exemption, which is silly when an unmodified trike is what's needed for your disability.

I couldn't agree more Kim ... I'm spending my mobility allowance on this and it will be a piece of rehabilitation equipment .. it's complete tosh! If I bought a crappy electric scooter it would be VAT exempt but offer no rehabilitation ... madness.

I'm not sure, but suspect the rules on VAT exemptions have tightened since then, and may only apply to the cost of the modification itself.  Otherwise the usual dodge for someone with a condition like yours would be to fit a device for carrying walking sticks...

You're spot on with this. Can you elaborate on the walking stick issue .. you have me intrigued ... Also I think there's some fine lines .. I can't turn my neck to either side properly so will need to have two mirrors - one each side. This is due to my disability so I expect it should be VAT exempt but will have to see. Also I need bar-end shifters  like barakta so that ought to qualify. I'll be getting the accessory handles I suspect (I think they can fit on either the Adventure or Sprint).

I didn't even bother asking.  There may have been a mistake on the customs declaration for the battery that lead to less duty charges.  I couldn't possibly comment.   

Wouldn't expect you to! But it is nice when the odd clerical error goes your way.

Barakta and I opted for a hub motor on the basis that it's much simpler (a wheel-swap) to remove the electrickery when desired.

V. true - and the Falco motors seem pretty good from everything I've heard .. as I said above I think this will be a later thing, maybe next year.

More generally, I second Auntie Helen's advice to try and get a test ride on a Scorpion.  I ride a HPVelotechnik Strreetmachine (its bicycle relative), and while HPV don't know the meaning of 'lightweight', they really know their suspension systems.  Probably worth having a go on a Catrike too, if only to get a feel for the difference that direct steering makes.

Thing is I'm going to have to spend a couple of hundred quid to get around and try all these and I'm more minded to keep that money in the bank. The Adventure was really good. I want to see if the Sprint or Adventure holds up best for my back but I'm pretty much decided on one of the two. I will be riding country lanes big up and down hills and I want to enjoy the speed of the downhill bits so .. the higher up Delta's may not offer the kind of stability my riding style will need (unless I'm missing something but basic laws of physics put me off just looking).

If getting in and out of a low seat is an issue then you'll probably prefer the ICE Adventure over the Sprint, in spite of the sprint having better handling on the downhills.  By the same logic, it might be worth considering delta trikes like the Kettwiesel, which have an even higher riding position.  Again, a Kettwiesel's one of those that's worth having a play with just to appreciate the different handling - the long wheelbase delta geometry means it can turn on a sixpence - awesome fun.

As above I don't think I'm up for lots of travel to try lots of bikes and I think Delta's are out unless they can turn on a sixpence at full speed on the way back down the hill from Dartmoor at speed .... if I'm wrong about the height reducing stability at speed and corners tell me please?

The Adventure/Sprint debate will be resolved Thursday and you've hit on exactly the two key criteria for me.  If getting into the sprint is hard I'm going to ask if buying the bracket for long legged peeps to move the seat back will make the Adventure any more stable and offer more grip up big hills (by shifting my weight back).

Hardshell vs mesh seats is another one to consider.  Hardshell has to be *just right* to be properly comfortable (so you'll probably end up fiddling about adding and removing foam padding), but is more supportive when you do get it right.  Mesh (at least a highly adjustable design like ICE's) is easier to tweak, and ventilates better, but you'll probably find yourself having to tighten up straps occasionally.  A thick Ventisit pad will probably provide the same sort of suspension effect with a hardshell seat as you get from mesh (it's by far the best seat pad material from a moisture perspective too).  I haven't ridden a trike with a hardshell seat, so I can't really comment about the effect of sideways forces when cornering - that's not an issue on a bike.

My back/spine/shoulders and hips are all very unstable. They are also narrowed due to muscle wasting so there won't be any lard hanging out! But also ... if I get a hardshell seat that fits now and get some rehabilitation effect from riding my hips and shoulders will widen again (significantly ~ 6 inches) so .. that could make it very hard to get the right seat as no amount of padding is likely to deal with that..

This is the problem - the usual owners of these vehicles are blokes who all have skinner arses anyway.
....
I should probably attempt to remove some of the lard from the arse but there are too many nice cakes in Germany for this to be a likely option.

You don't want to know how skinny my arse is ... 6 foot tall and 9 stone with muscle atrophy in my Glutes .... if you do remove any lard I'll buy it from you

The suspension on that Wild One looks pretty amazing ... but I want to feel in control and have some precision. I'll be off roading sometimes on green lanes and it might be nice for that but I can't see how I can try one without spending  a silly amount to get somewhere ... ICE's factory is 2hrs away on the  train and is going to cost me £16.50 to visit ... and I already know I love the ride quality even though the machine I was on was only an RS .. hopefully try a FS model Thursday and decide if it's worth the extra £500.

And the machines are the best. I tried a few at D-tek when I was buying mine, and the ICE was streets ahead of the rest for responsiveness and "feel"

I think that's probably true, assuming that you're definitely after a tadpole trike.  (Deltas having certain killer advantages, not limited to a higher seat, ease of hand-crank conversion, and ability to couple in tandem.....

The advantages you list above are probably all either irrelevant in my circumstances - or potential disadvantages to me Kim due to my "need for speed" (re the height) .. what are the other killer advantages?

Thanks to everyone for the very generous feedback and suggestions and your time in answering. It's much appreciated.

Warmly,

Matthew

[barakta]

I look forward to hearing how you get on with ICE on Thursday.  Half the joy of these threads is watching people work out what they want and how they decide it. Keeps all us nerds happy!

[Kim]

I'm not sure, but suspect the rules on VAT exemptions have tightened since then, and may only apply to the cost of the modification itself.  Otherwise the usual dodge for someone with a condition like yours would be to fit a device for carrying walking sticks...

You're spot on with this. Can you elaborate on the walking stick issue .. you have me intrigued ... Also I think there's some fine lines .. I can't turn my neck to either side properly so will need to have two mirrors - one each side. This is due to my disability so I expect it should be VAT exempt but will have to see. Also I need bar-end shifters  like barakta so that ought to qualify. I'll be getting the accessory handles I suspect (I think they can fit on either the Adventure or Sprint).

The walking stick issue was simply a convenient way of making a basically stock cycle be "modified for someone with a disability" when they didn't need special controls, pedals, supports or whatever.  I don't think it's any help if the VAT exemption only applies to the mod.

Incidentally, if you do need to carry sticks, a bit of plastic pipe attached to the back of the seat should work nicely on most recumbents.

I think the ICE accessory handles mount to the horizontal cross-tube of the Adventure, so won't fit the Sprint (which has it slanting upwards at the ends to meet the kingposts, to make the main body lower).

V. true - and the Falco motors seem pretty good from everything I've heard .. as I said above I think this will be a later thing, maybe next year.

I'm quite impressed with the Falco motor, and their general attitude to building a modular system around well-engineered motors.  They're a bit patchy documentation-wise, though lots of useful info seems to be coming out in dribs and drabs.  It's let down by the current incarnation of the console (which is buggy and hard to read, though it is of course possible to use a Falco motor without a console at all),  there's supposed to be a new version in the pipeline, but it's taking its time.

KMX seem to have gone with the Flaco for their e-assist trikes, though I think ICE are favouring a lighter weight mid-drive approach.

More generally, I second Auntie Helen's advice to try and get a test ride on a Scorpion.  I ride a HPVelotechnik Strreetmachine (its bicycle relative), and while HPV don't know the meaning of 'lightweight', they really know their suspension systems.  Probably worth having a go on a Catrike too, if only to get a feel for the difference that direct steering makes.

Thing is I'm going to have to spend a couple of hundred quid to get around and try all these and I'm more minded to keep that money in the bank. The Adventure was really good. I want to see if the Sprint or Adventure holds up best for my back but I'm pretty much decided on one of the two. I will be riding country lanes big up and down hills and I want to enjoy the speed of the downhill bits so .. the higher up Delta's may not offer the kind of stability my riding style will need (unless I'm missing something but basic laws of physics put me off just looking).

That's a fair point.  A visit to DTek (or hanging around at the Mildenhall Rally) is usually a good way to meet random recumbents, but I appreciate that's a fair trek from your part of the world.

As above I don't think I'm up for lots of travel to try lots of bikes and I think Delta's are out unless they can turn on a sixpence at full speed on the way back down the hill from Dartmoor at speed .... if I'm wrong about the height reducing stability at speed and corners tell me please?

Never ridden one at any kind of speed, unfortunately.  I'm sure that tadpoles have a significant advantage there.

I'll be off roading sometimes on green lanes

That's a very strong argument for the Adventure over the Sprint.  The lowest point of the Sprint's frame is about 4" off the ground, which means it's very easy to ground it on anything that's rutted (or get a wet bum in fords).  A typical kerb can be a problem, to the point where it's best to dismount and wheel it if you find you have to get down one because someone's parked a van on the dropped kerb at the end of a cyclepath (obviously there's no way you're going to ride *up* a kerb on a 20" wheeled recumbent).

Ingesting cut grass into the drivetrain is also an issue, but mostly on account of a long-cage dérailleur and a small wheel rather than the under-seat idler pulley, so the Adventure doesn't fare much better.  Hub gears or 26" rear wheels are the solution to this one, though if it's just the occasional ride across a campsite field, you can just take care to stick it in a small:small gear to lift the dérailleur up out of the way.


Anyway, hope things go well with your visit to ICE. 

[tonycollinet]

That's interesting.  I know that road buzz can be greatly improved on the rear-suspension-only Sprint by running Kojaks on the front wheels at *just* the right pressure.

Interesting - road buzz is annoying me at the moment. What is it about the Kojaks specifically that counter this? Or is it just a case of getting the right pressure on any tyre?

PS - sorry for the slight thread hijack

[Auntie Helen]

The kojaks are now on my Sprint and at 80psi (I should start working in Bar as everyone here does, so that's 6 bar I think). I haven't had a ride yet as I used the velomobile yesterday but I will report back.

The slight problem with reporting back  is the roads in Germany are so smooth you don't get road buzz anyway ;-)