Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => OT Knowledge => Topic started by: rogerzilla on 14 September, 2011, 05:09:33 pm

Title: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 14 September, 2011, 05:09:33 pm
Not economic or bright enough even six months ago.  But I found new Philips 7W GU10 lamps for £12 each (EDIT: £12.99) on eBay.  2700K "very warm white", 25 degree spotlight beam angle.  They are absolutely brilliant, i.e. they work exactly the same as the old 50W halogens but use 14% of the power (a 172W saving!).  They even look good because the profile of the heatsink happens to match the spotlight fitting as if the two were designed that way.  Payback period should be 2 years or less based on 2.5 hours use per day (it's less in summer and more in winter).

Keep an eye out, because at the RRP of about £30 they are not economic.  Also avoid the versions with a higher colour temperature as they will be nothing like halogen and more like old CFLs.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 14 September, 2011, 05:19:11 pm
We have Aurora 8.5 W 35 degree dimmable LEDs in our kitchen.  They are fantastic, though we went for 4200 K colour temp as the 2700s were way too orange for kitchen use.  4 Cree emitters in each.

They did cost £30 apiece though*, so £12 for the Philips ones is a steal.  I might bag some to replace the crappy CFL spots in other parts of the house.

*and there's a lot of them.  In our case it's a 700 W saving,
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 14 September, 2011, 05:57:43 pm
They're also available, and more common, in a 40 degree beam.  The thing I hated most about the Megaman CFL GU10s* was the wide beam (also the sickly colour and the 3 minute - yes really - warmup time), hence I went for the narrowest option here.  They certainly put more light where it's wanted than the halogens.

*stuck with them for 18 months, took them out one Christmas "just for the festivities" and couldn't bear to put them back.  Can lighting inspire so much hate?  Yes!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: LEE on 14 September, 2011, 06:02:03 pm
My kitchen has 500W of GU10s right now (that I always hesitate to turn on).  Very interested in this thread.

Do you have a link to the Ebay shop?

With the disappearance of 100w and 60w bayonet filament bulbs I'm also keen to know what LED equivalents/replacements are like.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 14 September, 2011, 07:55:50 pm
£12.99, my mistake.  Still pays back in two years on my calculation.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220846669263&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:GB:1123

5 left at the moment.  Remember - these are 25 degree spots, which I like but they will leave the floor and ceiling of your kitchen rather dark.  40 degree spots are more widely available.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: tonycollinet on 14 September, 2011, 08:06:20 pm
Just ordered 3 - sorry Lee, but I don't thing there were enough for you in any case.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 14 September, 2011, 09:08:07 pm
We now have 79 GU10 fittings.  You can imagine the incentive to replace the halogens with CFLs and LEDs  ;D
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 15 September, 2011, 04:21:34 am
I think my sister-in-law also has about 1500W of lighting just for the stairs and landing.  Builders should be shot for fitting so many GU10 housings; they're worse for the leccy bill than tumble driers if they're in rooms which are used a lot.

Are there any CFLs that genuinely come on instantly and can cope with being flicked on and off for short periods?  The upcoming ban on 60W round bulbs is a problem for lighting our hall and stairs.  The LED alternative is now available at £55 each, which would have a payback period of about three centuries given how little the lights are used.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: nmcgann on 15 September, 2011, 07:02:58 am
I think my sister-in-law also has about 1500W of lighting just for the stairs and landing.  Builders should be shot for fitting so many GU10 housings; they're worse for the leccy bill than tumble driers if they're in rooms which are used a lot.

Are there any CFLs that genuinely come on instantly and can cope with being flicked on and off for short periods?  The upcoming ban on 60W round bulbs is a problem for lighting our hall and stairs.  The LED alternative is now available at £55 each, which would have a payback period of about three centuries given how little the lights are used.
I've got cheapo Tesco own-brand 11W "Stick" CFLs (http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=259117114) on my hall and landing.

These are better than any of the branded products I have tried as they don't flicker, come on immediately at acceptable brightness and don't seem inclined to fail quickly. I've also tried philips but they were a lot worse (and megman which were terrible).

The only snag I see with the Tesco own-brand product is that they could change sourcing at any moment and the replacement version could be completely different.

I've got 12 GU10s in my kitchen and I haven't found an acceptable lamp replacement for these eco-disasters yet. The fittings are too small to take any of the alternatives I have looked at so far (and I couldn't bring myself to pay £30 for leds - crazy money). I've dropped the lamps down to 35W as they have failed - which is also relatively often  ::-)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rafletcher on 15 September, 2011, 07:47:52 am
As we have a dozen or so GU10's (bathroom and kitchen) I'll be following this thread  :).  Those lamps are most of our lighting usage.  Otherwise the majority of lighting with higher usage is from various table lamps in living room and bedroom.  here we use Philips Turbo (or possibly Tornado) 20W CFL. Fast starting and as bright as conventional 100W bulbs - so good in fact that my wife will tolertae one as her bedside reading light.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: nmcgann on 15 September, 2011, 08:00:13 am
I've had a quick look round the 'net following on from this thread. The Aurora 6W GU10 is good value (<£15) and looks pretty enough that it might work as a 35W replacement in one of my kitchen fixtures where the whole bulb is exposed.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rafletcher on 16 September, 2011, 08:47:52 am
Hmm, having looked at the Philips bulbs they're no good for me - they are a much longer bulb than the standard halogens so won't fit the recessessed fitting we have, particularly the IP reated ones in the bathroom.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: nmcgann on 16 September, 2011, 07:41:42 pm
I've had a quick look round the 'net following on from this thread. The Aurora 6W GU10 is good value (<£15) and looks pretty enough that it might work as a 35W replacement in one of my kitchen fixtures where the whole bulb is exposed.
Bought 2 to try them. Brightness is good, but 4000k is just too white and clinical for our kitchen general room lighting.

I'll have to get a couple of 3000k ones to see if they are too yellow since the standard halogens seem to be 3500k  ::-)

They look good in fixtures where the whole lamp is exposed, the swoopy silver heatsink looks pretty good to me.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 17 September, 2011, 12:04:05 pm
I've just ordered 10 x MR16 Cree LEDs for the bathroom.  The payback period on these is longer (4 years for a 170W saving, because the LEDs are £85) but they are the best quality ones, with single LEDs, and also guaranteed to work with the existing transformers.  Some 12V LEDs need a conventional magnetic transformer which is expensive and requires FAFF to swap over.

The other advantage of the LEDs is that I no longer have to have 10 holes in the loft insulation to let the heat escape.

Report soon.  I suspect they will be rather bright  8) as they're more like 35W equivalent to replace 20W halogens, but there wasn't a great choice in 2W.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: LEE on 20 September, 2011, 03:21:05 pm
A good point implied by RZ is that Halogen spots are a fire risk and SHOULD (although hardly anyone bothers) have a heat/fire retardent shroud over them in a confied space.  Many will be encased in loft insulation.

LEDs should run cold/cool by comparison.  I may get some just for this reason alone.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: tonycollinet on 20 September, 2011, 09:32:32 pm
Well my three (based on the OP) have arrived.

Initial impression - colour good. Not convinced of the 50W equivalence. However, they are bright enough for the room I am lighting.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 23 September, 2011, 11:12:32 am
A good point implied by RZ is that Halogen spots are a fire risk and SHOULD (although hardly anyone bothers) have a heat/fire retardent shroud over them in a confied space.  Many will be encased in loft insulation.

LEDs should run cold/cool by comparison.  I may get some just for this reason alone.

This is another reason we're changing all ours. They run at a couple of hundred degrees, and in an enclosed dusty space...

They also mean that we can't have proper loft insulation.

By-the-by: building regs require that the fittings be fire-resistant to the same extent as the ceiling they're mounted in.  None of ours are, and that's another reason they have to go.

The new fittings are bigger and the (mains) GU10 LED/CFL lamps are also fiddled so that only they will fit in the new fittings (ie you can't put in "eco" rated light fittings & then subsequently swap the bulbs out for halogens)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 23 September, 2011, 08:50:56 pm
Well my three (based on the OP) have arrived.

Initial impression - colour good. Not convinced of the 50W equivalence.
I am; the patches of light on the worktop are MUCH brighter than the 50W halogens, although these are 25 deg rather than 38 deg or whatever the halogens were, so you'd expect that.  On balance, I'd say the same amount of light is coming from them.  Unfortunately getting lumens figures for halogens is tricky.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 23 September, 2011, 08:55:10 pm
The 8.5 W Auroras appear *much* brighter than 50W halogens, but colour temperature plays a part; the 2700k ones subjectively looked way dimmer than the 4000k ones and also the halogens.  The beam angle is comparable though

I today ordered some 6 W ones at £12 as a trial (we don't need the intensity that the 8.5 W ones give elsewhere than the kitchen)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Canardly on 23 September, 2011, 09:03:29 pm
I read somewhere today that if every household had 3 low energy fittings that would save enough energy for all street lighting nationally. LEDs are of course much more efficient than Low energy fittings.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 23 September, 2011, 09:15:06 pm
Only slightly, and only recently (and at much greater cost).  The traditional fluorescent tube took a lot of beating, saving about 80% compared to incandescent.  CFLs are more like 60-75% in my experience; a 20W CFL isn't really equivalent to a 100W bulb, especially the cheap ones.  I have a B&Q 20W CFL at each corner of the garage and they provide nothing more than "mood lighting".

The latest 20W CFL spirals from the major brands are very good.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Canardly on 23 September, 2011, 09:25:04 pm
LEDs are coming on leaps and bounds tho and agree about newer fittings. The aged ones are moaning about inability to source incandescent light fittings but are loathe to install low energy units due to pre conceptions and out of date experiences.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: LEE on 23 September, 2011, 09:25:26 pm
I have one 50W Halogen in the downstairs Loo that will be a good place to start trialling an LED replacement.

I'd like a fairly wide beam and a colour temperature that doesn't result in a blue-white glare of my B&M CYO front light but also isn't too yellow.

1 - What bulb would meet those requirements?
2 - Have we established a cheap and reputable stockist?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 23 September, 2011, 09:29:29 pm
I have one 50W Halogen in the downstairs Loo that will be a good place to start trialling an LED replacement.

I'd like a fairly wide beam and a colour temperature that doesn't result in a blue-white glare of my B&M CYO front light but also isn't too yellow.

1 - What bulb would meet those requirements?
2 - Have we established a cheap and reputable stockist?

1. You'd need a 40 deg beam, assuming the halogen is the usual 38 deg or so.  The Philips ones are about 3x as long as a halogen GU10 and won't go into a recessed fitting if that's what you have.

2700K is about the same as a GU10 50W halogen.

2. Not really; that was a limited amount of stock.  The going rate if you shop around is about £27, which isn't worth it as the thing might crap out before you reach the payback period.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 23 September, 2011, 09:31:42 pm
1 - What bulb would meet those requirements?

I was quite surprised when we set up our beauty parade before we chose the kitchen lights (this was 6 months ago though)

Some of them were sickly green/lurid blue, but the 2700 K Auroras were way too warm. We went for 4000 K in the end, which wasn't what i expected, but for a kitchen with warm wooden units & floor they're ace. You might want a warmer one for a loo

I can recommend Aurora though; we have 20 in our kitchen  :o

Quote
2 - Have we established a cheap and reputable stockist?

They're on Amazon, £12.99.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: nmcgann on 23 September, 2011, 09:49:03 pm
I tried 4 of the 4W Aurora 3000K gu10s in one of the kitchen overhead fixtures, but the colour temp is a touch too white still for my taste and they are also too bright  :o
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: frankly frankie on 23 September, 2011, 11:18:37 pm
I have one 50W Halogen in the downstairs Loo that will be a good place to start trialling an LED replacement.
I'd like a fairly wide beam and a colour temperature that doesn't result in a blue-white glare of my B&M CYO front light but also isn't too yellow.

It's a BOG - get over yourself!  ::-) ;)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 24 September, 2011, 06:58:09 am
It's a BOG - get over yourself!  ::-) ;)
i think the object of having a light in your downstairs khazi is *not* to get it over yourself.  Or the carpet, or your degree certificate, or any family pet that happens to follow you in.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: tonycollinet on 24 September, 2011, 09:13:54 am
I have one 50W Halogen in the downstairs Loo that will be a good place to start trialling an LED replacement.
I'd like a fairly wide beam and a colour temperature that doesn't result in a blue-white glare of my B&M CYO front light but also isn't too yellow.

It's a BOG - get over yourself!  ::-) ;)

To some it is a Bog

To others it is a place of quiet repose - a refuge from the trials and tribulations of real life, a place to read, or contemplate the wonders of the universe. The art of lighting in this small piece of heaven, is paramount.

 ;D
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 24 September, 2011, 10:28:33 am
Get some pot-pourri that smells like a joss stick, buy a colour-changing GU10 LED and achieve excretory nirvana.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 27 September, 2011, 01:43:49 pm
The 3000 K 6W Auroras just arrived. They're the same length as the CFL GU10s, but a lot shorter than the 8.5 W Auroras. They have 3 emitters rather than 4  Massively brighter than the CFLs, but the hue (at least in daylight) looks a little bit ghastly.  Be OK for corridors but I'd not want to live with them in a living room.  So they're a better bet than the CFls but not the 8.5 W 4200 K LEDs. 

I might try some of the 4200 K 6W LEds, and maybe ebay all the unused CFLs
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 27 September, 2011, 07:08:31 pm
We now have 10 x 3 x 1W MR16 LEDs in the bathroom ceiling, saving 170W.  They are a bit brighter than the 20W halogen lamps they replaced although the CRI could be better.  The lamps seem warm white to look at but skin tones have a faint purple or green tinge, as with some CFLs.  They are acceptable though, unlike some CFLs I've had in the past.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 27 September, 2011, 07:15:51 pm
I've just done an intercomparison of GU10s: 50W halogen, 11W 2700K CFL, 6W 3000K LED and 8.5W 4200K LED.

The CFLs are by a fair margin the warmest, and they're the least bright -  but not by that much compared to the 6W LEDs. 
The 6W LEDs have the yukkiest colour (too green). 
The 8.5W LEDs are the brightest and nearest to daylight (but they're a generation on from the 6W ones, and cost 2.5 times as much)
The 50W halogens are the most pleasing on the eye, but probably a bit too warm for our kitchen. We have yellowy-oak floors and oak kitchen units so they need a fairly daylight-equivalent light to not soak it all up.

Pics inna mo.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 27 September, 2011, 08:16:57 pm
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6156/6189725414_2c92630861_m.jpg)(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6160/6189212763_026ae72aec_m.jpg)(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6151/6189731606_bf44b17609_m.jpg)(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6179/6189215109_35ee6c58b3_m.jpg)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: andyoxon on 27 September, 2011, 08:57:29 pm
We have two 4x50W* GU10 arrays in the kitchen - so I'm keeping an eye on this thread.  Our under-unit F light goes on to save the 400W output whenever poss (when I have anything to do with it...  ;) )

*The Philips Twistline are 2800K and have a luminous intensity of 700 cd.  Interesting to hear of the diiferent hues for very similar colour temperatures.  The spec sheet for the Philips states Color Rendering Index 100 Ra8 - perhaps this has something to do with hue?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 27 September, 2011, 09:31:15 pm
CRI is basically how continuous the spectrum is.  The worst CRI would be from a low-pressure sodium streetlamp, which just has a couple of discrete lines in the spectrum.  The best is from an incandescent lamp, which has a wide continuous band of different wavelengths.

Both LEDs and CFLs depend on phosphors to convert the raw light they produce (UV or blue) into "white", and this is where the art comes into the design.  If you get a low CRI, the overall colour temperature may be 2700K (like tungsten) but you can still see too much purple and green because there are peaks in funny parts of the spectrum.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hubner on 28 September, 2011, 05:09:55 pm
????

I got packs of 3 Philips "Energy Saver" 11w for 50p (that's 3 bulbs for 50p) from the pound shop!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 28 September, 2011, 05:56:46 pm
They're CFLs.  They don't replace halogen spotlights (some claim to, but they are crap; I suffered them fior a year)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 28 September, 2011, 06:39:36 pm
The 11W GU10 CFLs we've got are actually very good - just a bit slow to get to full brightness. In terms of hue I think they're much better than the 6W LEDs I tried, and they're only a bit less bright. They are several quid each though. 
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 28 September, 2011, 08:04:30 pm
I still have some Megaman 11W GU10s in the lightbulb box.  They are, without a doubt, the worst lights I have ever used.  3 mins to reach full brightness (and barely any light for the first 30 seconds) and then a horrid green wash of light, not spots at all.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 28 September, 2011, 08:24:51 pm
Ours are "Energetic" branded, and seem to be Belgian.

They have a third the claimed life of the LEDs and use a fair bit more power.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 02 October, 2011, 04:38:13 pm
Well, our halogen GU10s seem to be losing the will to live en masse

The programme of replacement with LEDs/CFLs is timely.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: inc on 02 October, 2011, 06:06:32 pm
These give a nice light for cfl http://www.lampspecs.co.uk/Light-Bulbs-Tubes/Megaman-GX53-Downlights/FOZZ-CONXENTO-GX53-Adjustable-Spotlight-White-Megaman they are GX53  but the GU10 cfl replacements are not so good. The best led gu10 replacements I have found so far are Toshiba but at £25 a pop a non starter, I need  ove 50.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Pancho on 02 October, 2011, 06:23:53 pm
These give a nice light for cfl http://www.lampspecs.co.uk/Light-Bulbs-Tubes/Megaman-GX53-Downlights/FOZZ-CONXENTO-GX53-Adjustable-Spotlight-White-Megaman they are GX53  but the GU10 cfl replacements are not so good. The best led gu10 replacements I have found so far are Toshiba but at £25 a pop a non starter, I need  over 50.

WTF? Do you live in a Christmas Tree?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 03 October, 2011, 09:36:44 pm
I've seen modern "designer" houses where there are no pendants and every room has many spots recessed into the ceiling.  The hall and stairs at my sister-in-law's house probably has almost 1kW of lighting and it's not even that bright.

The recessed 50W GU10 fittings are the worst because there isn't, nor is there likely to be, an LED replacement that fits; you need a 7W or 8W LED and, because waste heat isn't radiated but stays in the chip, you need a big heatsink and hence a large lamp module. You cannae change the laws of physics, Captain.  MR16 lamps, typically 20W, can be replaced with 3W LEDs and the heat is manageable within the size of the module.

Lexus use LED headlamps on their top model.  They are problematic because nearly all the waste heat has to be got rid of at the back of the lamp (big heatsink) and barely any is thrown forwards as IR; so they need defrosters on the lenses for winter.  FAIL.  We cyclists get away with it because, again, the waste heat from a 3W LED is manageable in a small unit, and we don't ride much in snow.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 03 October, 2011, 09:43:55 pm
I've seen modern "designer" houses where there are no pendants and every room has many spots recessed into the ceiling. 

We have 79 ceiling GU10 spots & 6 pendants. 

Quote
The recessed 50W GU10 fittings are the worst because there isn't, nor is there likely to be, an LED replacement that fits; you need a 7W or 8W LED and, because waste heat isn't radiated but stays in the chip, you need a big heatsink and hence a large lamp module.

There's also an "environ" rated GU10 fitting which only takes LEDs & CFLs and cannot take halogens (so you can't get a low carbon-rating on your house and replace the CFLs with halogens) and these are also the bigger size.

Our halogen GU10 fittings are crap, and not fire-rated, so I don't have many qualms about changing them
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Somnolent on 26 October, 2011, 12:43:29 pm
Anyone tried these yet?   
http://www.amazon.co.uk/LIGHT-ENERGY-SAVING-BRIGHT-REPLACING/dp/B004V492IC/ref=sr_1_20?s=lighting&ie=UTF8&qid=1319628785&sr=1-20
I'm hoping they mean 45deg beam not 45 minute....

Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 26 October, 2011, 08:26:14 pm
I can't believe they will work well or have a long life with such little heatsinking.  They're also cool white.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 02 November, 2011, 06:18:49 pm
It turns out that one of our neighbours has just started a business selling LED lights. He just came round and demo'd his GU10 equivalents, and they're very good.  Nice colour temperature and at a claimed 450 lumens from 6W in a 45 degree beam they're almost as bright as our top-end 8.5 W Crees

Cost is about £11-£12 apiece
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 02 November, 2011, 06:44:24 pm
Is he online?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 02 November, 2011, 06:48:29 pm
http://waveled.co.uk/

(not a terribly helpful site though; I've got his catalogue here and it's much better)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 02 November, 2011, 07:03:05 pm
Presumably he's looking to shift them in bulk, rather than maybe domestic customers, or is the website a work in  progress?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 02 November, 2011, 07:04:20 pm
I think he's happy for domestic sales, but I expect on a scale of 10s rather than units
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 02 November, 2011, 07:48:04 pm
Looking at his homepage, you could be Disco Stu and fit your house with ropelights.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: tonycollinet on 03 November, 2011, 09:05:06 pm
Massive fail on the website - all roads lead to the least interesting product.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: sub55 on 05 November, 2011, 06:26:59 pm
If i can pick the brains of some of you learned gentlemen for a minute or two.
If i was to purchase one of these "10W High Power Waterproof White LED Flood Wash Light Lamp Bulb DC 12V Outdoor"
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130577292130?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130577292130?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)
and wired it up to a 18v 3ampere battery  that i have from my power tools , would it work ?  or just blow it to smitherines.
Looking to make myself a light weight portable work light.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: border-rider on 05 November, 2011, 08:55:12 pm
I think you'd knacker it

It's not clear what's in that light - whether it's current-limited - but if you over-volt it it likely won't be happy.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: peterh on 07 November, 2011, 08:58:15 pm
I found this site through another forum where the owner of the business is a member - http://www.ecoledlight.co.uk/ (http://www.ecoledlight.co.uk/)

Haven't used them yet, but I'm thinking about it.  Other people on the forum have posted good recommendations - and he says he offers discounts to that forum's members!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 November, 2011, 10:29:12 pm
I've just been looking at those rolls of LED strips with an RGB controller. Might be nice going up the stairs. Wonder how you wire it in?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Jaded on 09 June, 2012, 06:27:35 pm
Update with what we have in out kitchen now.

JCC JC94174  7W non-dimmable.

Nice pieces of kit and a 10 year warranty.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 17 June, 2012, 07:25:59 pm
The first of the ten 3W MR16 units in the bathroom has crapped out.  Chinese shite, presumably.  Guaranteed for a year, so I expect a new one.  If this failure rate continues, it would have been much cheaper to stick with 95p halogens, since none of those failed in 9 years and the LEDs are £10 each.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Canardly on 17 June, 2012, 07:48:38 pm
Current issues damaging light units?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 17 June, 2012, 07:53:38 pm
I doubt it.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: henshaw11 on 31 October, 2012, 04:49:50 pm
More thread necrophilia...

I've found these:
http://www.thelightbulbshop.co.uk/Shop/Base/Product/32457/LDRA0727MU5EUD/67WE-COREMR16GU53LEDBulb.aspx

which at 15 quid inc vat seem reasonable (that's also the cheapest I've found 'em). Tricky bit is, there's 2700k, 3000k, and 4000K variants (and in 35, 25 degrees) ie warm white, natural white, cool white. I'm guessing the nearest to the existing halogens is gonna be something like warm or natural (and TBH I'm not that keen on the cold end of bike led lights...)

Any thoughts ?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: LEE on 31 October, 2012, 10:42:19 pm
I get all my LEDs (warm) from http://www.ledhut.co.uk/?gclid=CK_1iM2prLMCFUbKtAodCSYAqw (http://www.ledhut.co.uk/?gclid=CK_1iM2prLMCFUbKtAodCSYAqw)

Free delivery.  Really please with the products, price and service.



Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Feline on 31 October, 2012, 11:07:29 pm
Ah this is a good thread. Some good ideas for converting my last few non low energy bulbs to LED  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Biggsy on 31 October, 2012, 11:32:46 pm
As I mentioned in another recent thread:

This is the LED "bulb" I have that's really good for supplementing daylight:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200755048519 - Day White version.

The "corn cob" arrangement makes it very wide angle, though it's not a bright as a conventional 100W bulb.  The Warm White is dimmer still.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 01 November, 2012, 07:39:39 am
Two of the unbranded bathroom LEDs died within a year (replaced free of charge by the seller).  All the Philips ones are still going strong.

In the bathroom they need to last 4 years to pay back.  In the kitchen, only 2 years because they're used more.  In bedrooms they need to last almost 10 years.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: marcusjb on 01 November, 2012, 07:57:24 am
Slightly tangential to this discussion, but Philips have just released their Hue system in the US.  This zigbee networked lamp is a good indication of where the future lies, with every light bulb we own being a network device that can be controlled individually and as groups. A certain large search engine company is heavily invested in this area as they really, really want to be in our homes (the Internet of things is getting ever so close now).

Hue does look interesting and gives some indication of where LED lighting is going.

Www.meethue.com

Next stage is getting rid of light switches and, instead, having NFC readers behind the wallpaper - wave your phone (or hand if you have chosen to have the NFC chip embedded) over the reader and the lights turn on to your personal settings.

The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: perpetual dan on 01 November, 2012, 08:06:48 am
We have a room at work where the lights are networked (wired with a web services interface). Good fun, but at home there are quite a small number of settings that I actually want. (Edit to add) and for wired-in lights I see little need for wireless and have little desire for manufacturer lock-in, I'd be looking for control in the fittings rather than the bulbs.

We're gradually trying LEDs in place of halogen in the kitchen, but so far I've yet to find a "bulb" that I'd want to use to replace them all - either too blue, too narrow a beam or too expensive.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: nmcgann on 01 November, 2012, 08:09:28 pm
We have a room at work where the lights are networked (wired with a web services interface). Good fun, but at home there are quite a small number of settings that I actually want. (Edit to add) and for wired-in lights I see little need for wireless and have little desire for manufacturer lock-in, I'd be looking for control in the fittings rather than the bulbs.

We're gradually trying LEDs in place of halogen in the kitchen, but so far I've yet to find a "bulb" that I'd want to use to replace them all - either too blue, too narrow a beam or too expensive.
I still haven't found a match for the halogen colour temperature and hue. Beam angle and brightness are good, price and dimensions are about there, but the light quality isn't good enough.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 02 November, 2012, 05:57:37 pm
Now trying Philips 4W clear LED candles in the dining room.  Excellent colour, good looks, instant-on and brighter than the 7W Megaman CFLs (OK colour but appalling 3 minute warm-up time)  that are in there with them.

Sainsbury's sell them for 9.99 and they must have fallen off the back of a lorry, because they're 14.99 everywhere else.

The remarkable thing is that, when we first installed the candelabra in that room, it had 5 x 40w incandescent candles - we've gone from 200W to 20W.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Wombat on 03 November, 2012, 11:59:07 am
Thanks RZ, off to Sainsbury's shortly....
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 03 November, 2012, 12:04:51 pm
They don't sell them in all branches.  The (larger) Bridgemead store in Swindon doesn't have them and nor does the small town centre sture - just the Stratton store we normally use.

I need one more of them so I'm hoping they restock - even on fleaBay I can't find them for less than about £14 including postage.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Morrisette on 05 November, 2012, 02:05:52 pm
Slightly tangential to this discussion, but Philips have just released their Hue system in the US.  This zigbee networked lamp is a good indication of where the future lies, with every light bulb we own being a network device that can be controlled individually and as groups. A certain large search engine company is heavily invested in this area as they really, really want to be in our homes (the Internet of things is getting ever so close now).

As a fully-paid-up Luddite, I find this very, very scary.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Feline on 05 November, 2012, 06:02:47 pm
Slightly tangential to this discussion, but Philips have just released their Hue system in the US.  This zigbee networked lamp is a good indication of where the future lies, with every light bulb we own being a network device that can be controlled individually and as groups. A certain large search engine company is heavily invested in this area as they really, really want to be in our homes (the Internet of things is getting ever so close now).

As a fully-paid-up Luddite, I find this very, very scary.

I absolutely can't wait until I can sit on my sofa and control everything electric in the house from my iPhone  :D
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 05 November, 2012, 06:16:15 pm
Slightly tangential to this discussion, but Philips have just released their Hue system in the US.  This zigbee networked lamp is a good indication of where the future lies, with every light bulb we own being a network device that can be controlled individually and as groups. A certain large search engine company is heavily invested in this area as they really, really want to be in our homes (the Internet of things is getting ever so close now).

As a fully-paid-up Luddite, I find this very, very scary.

As a fully-paid-up computer geek, I find it even scarier.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: henshaw11 on 06 November, 2012, 01:16:50 pm
Slightly tangential to this discussion, but Philips have just released their Hue system in the US.  This zigbee networked lamp is a good indication of where the future lies, with every light bulb we own being a network device that can be controlled individually and as groups. A certain large search engine company is heavily invested in this area as they really, really want to be in our homes (the Internet of things is getting ever so close now).

As a fully-paid-up Luddite, I find this very, very scary.

As a fully-paid-up computer geek, I find it even scarier.

As a fully-paid-up computer geek and frequent luddite, I just want stuff to fecking work - and if it doesn't work, be relatively easy for anyone with a little bit of knowledge to fix without a frigging degree, a certification in network admin, or just throwing money at possibly expensive units without knowing why they're failing.

FWIW, I've now got a couple of the Toshiba MR16/GU5.3 LED jobbies I mentioned some posts back. It's only two units out of 12 in the kitchen (plus 6 more in neighbouring laundry/corridor/loo), but they look promising. As indicated by the numbers on the packaging, the white (3000K) is definitely brighter than the warm white(2700K) but that's looking *at* it from an angle, difficult to say what the effect is with the other halogens in situ. Colour-wise, IMO both are decent - my OH was complaining that the white was too white and hurt her eyes (or something) but when suggested that looking *at* it wasn't the best comparison seemed to be a litle more convinced. The warm white's less warm than the halogen of course, but not too far off. And defintely a lot brighter than a neighbouring unit where I dropped in a 20W halogen (vs the 50W halogens elsewhere).

Curiously the white one doesn't always come on  - flashes then turns off. Dunno if that's an effect of the transformer (which I may need to replace), or the unit's actually faulty. In the meantime I'll probably order another 5 or so of the warm whites and see if they do the same, and see how they light the place..

Somewhere on the toshiba.eu site there's supposed to be a useage/compatibility sheet, but I think this may be the same thing:
http://www.toshiba.eu/newlighting/Global/Products/pdf/transformers-compatibility.pdf?epslanguage=en-GB

- linked from
http://www.energytaskforce.co.uk/ourshop/prod_1744089-Toshiba-MR16-67W-neutral-light.html
...I like (!) this bit:
"You must change the transformer / driver! Traditional MR16 bulbs run off a 12V supply from a transformer.  All LED MR16 bulbs require installation of the correct 12V drivers for optimum operation.  We can help you to choose from the list of compatible 12V drivers.  Because of the cost of changing the 12V drivers, we recommend switching to GU10 fittings instead.  GU10 fittings are no more expensive than the 12V MR16 drivers."

Yeah, like the cost/hassle of replacing the driver is more than sorting out a sh*t-load of wiring in a ceiling..

Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: LEE on 26 April, 2013, 01:35:43 pm
I replaced my 10 50W GU10 Halogen spots in the kitchen for 10 3W LEDs (from LEDHUT).  They cost me over £60 but it means that I actually use them now.

My back room has 6 flush-fitting spot-lights all with the same LEDs and the bathroom has 3 of them.

They aren't quite as bright as the 50W halogens but they are good enough.

I have 3 LED "bulbs" in pendant lights over the dining table in the kitchen (I think they are 5W each).

What it means is that I can have all 21 bulbs turned on for a grand total of 67Watts.

It's got to the point now that I resent the 35W Halogen built into my shower extractor fan.

If there were any nice (ie. not pig ugly) LED candle-bulbs then I'd complete my migration to LEDs and CFLs.


It's entirely possible to have a house, with decent bright lighting, main lights, spot lights and accent lights, running with a total of less than 150 Watts (with every one of them turned on).

Pretty incredible really.


I wonder if the money I'm saving on lighting is just spent on the central heating, making up for the lack of heat from the lights.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: nuttycyclist on 26 April, 2013, 02:16:55 pm
If there were any nice (ie. not pig ugly) LED candle-bulbs then I'd complete my migration to LEDs and CFLs.

It's entirely possible to have a house, with decent bright lighting, main lights, spot lights and accent lights, running with a total of less than 150 Watts (with every one of them turned on).

This intrigues me, as the current house has CFL which we couldn't use in the old house as all lights, bar the stairs, were on dimmers.

In the old house we got used to turning the stair light on, running up/down in the dark and then turning it off.    When it blew we didn't even notice.    We used to only have the lights on in the room we were in, and because they were often dimmed too we were using minimal wattage.

In the current house, because of the age for CFL to come up to usable brightness, we have all the lights on at all times, and torches handy for looking in cupboards/waiting for the lights to come on.    I worked out the other day that our energy consumption on energy saving bulbs is considerably higher than it was when using proper bulbs.   

We do have some 50W GU10s, and although I tried replacing them the light quality coming out of the non-halogen bulbs was akin to skiing in a white-out/flat light.  i.e. I was dropping things on the floor instead of putting them on the worktops I thought I was looking at, and walking into cupboards that I thought were further away.  I tried CFL, but as they blew after 3 weeks I decided the Tesco Halogen at £1.50 for 4 were a better replacement than the cheapest CFL I could get my hands on at the time at £3.75 each (so considerable money for 12 months worth).


I'm at the point now of binning the energy saving bulbs and going back to proper ones (which were in stock in my local hardware shop last time I went in).   It's going to save me money on electricity, save me money on constantly replacing bulbs, save the planet on production and landfill, and also look better.     It will also mean the nice lampshades we have that throw patterns on the wall will work again - with energy saving bulbs they seem to just light the room with flat light as opposed to giving a defined pattern.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: LEE on 26 April, 2013, 02:26:14 pm
When a CFL blows (which never takes as long as the manufacturer states) it gets replaced with an LED equivalent.

CFLs were an interim solution while we waited for LED technology to step up.

LEDs are brighter (or at least as bright), lower wattage, instantaneous and longer lasting....but fairly expensive initially.

I must be on LEDHUT's Christmas card list by now.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 26 April, 2013, 02:30:59 pm
In the old house we got used to turning the stair light on, running up/down in the dark and then turning it off.    When it blew we didn't even notice.    We used to only have the lights on in the room we were in, and because they were often dimmed too we were using minimal wattage.

A tungsten lamp on a dimmer is *highly* non-linear in terms of brightness to power consumption.  It'll be using a fair amount of power just to keep the filament at a dull glow.

Similarly, dimming high-wattage lamps to match lower wattage ones is extremely inefficient.

I won't get into dimmer curves.  That way lies madness...


As for crap CFLs, I chanced upon some 33W ones in Morrisons a few weeks ago.  They're actually brighter than a 100W tungsten lamp (though not quite as good as 150W), and are decently bright from switch-on.  They'll do.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: nuttycyclist on 26 April, 2013, 02:49:29 pm
Dimmer curves - that's what I thought to but sparky said otherwise and meterage of the mains on a test did show reduced power consumption when dimmed as opposed to full blast.


The Morrisons one might be worth a go....  but Mrs Nutty is keen for things to "look good" so the CFLs at the moment are the ones hidden in a candle shaped cover.    If I bought the old style curled tubing, I might as well wire my nadgers into the mains and read my book by the light of them glowing.    Please tell me these cheapos look good :)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rafletcher on 26 April, 2013, 03:26:16 pm
These aren't too bad at start-up, and won't get yr nads wired up! (I use the Tornado 23w version but they're curly tubed)

http://www.johnlewis.com/philips-softone-energy-saving-es-bulb-20w/p151183
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Biggsy on 26 April, 2013, 06:36:10 pm
This is the LED "bulb" I have that's really good for supplementing daylight:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200755048519 - Day White version.

The "corn cob" arrangement makes it very wide angle, though it's not a bright as a conventional 100W bulb.  The Warm White is dimmer still.

UPDATE:  One of these bulbs has blown now (all but the LEDs on the bottom don't come on), so eight quid for six months is not great value.  On the other hand, I don't know of any other light that so closely matches the colour of daylight, that I do like during the day in this room with a not-big-enough window.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Oaky on 26 April, 2013, 06:49:34 pm
This is the LED "bulb" I have that's really good for supplementing daylight:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200755048519 - Day White version.

The "corn cob" arrangement makes it very wide angle, though it's not a bright as a conventional 100W bulb.  The Warm White is dimmer still.

UPDATE:  One of these bulbs has blown now (all but the bottom row of LEDs don't come on), so eight quid for six months is not great value.  On the other hand, I don't know of any other light that so closely matches the colour of daylight, that I do like during the day in this room with a not-big-enough window.

That's got to be the fugliest bulb on the planet.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Biggsy on 26 April, 2013, 06:58:12 pm
Well, at least it looks interesting! 

By the way, you hardly see the individual LEDs when on, just the blob of the whole thing burnt on to your retina.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Feline on 26 April, 2013, 08:38:48 pm
I'm currently using these in some of my light fittings
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009Y7CMVK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A11XEBUJSDP4OW
They are not fugly and are a very good straight replacement for candle bulbs!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: nuttycyclist on 26 April, 2013, 11:37:12 pm
, so eight quid for six months is not great value.

As per my comments upthread and why I'm seriously toying swapping the whole house back to proper bulbs.

I have a theory that as with 3D TVs and all other fancy gadgets, these new fangled CFL and LED* lights are nothing more than a marketing gimmick from the manufacturers to make us part with our money.     At least the old lightbulbs worked and could be relied on.



*Brother-in-law bought the LED ones.    Hideous blue light, torch beams instead of a glow, and when he took them to work and put them on the electrical monitor (for he had one on his workbench), he found the "5W LED" was actually consuming nearer 25W - so hardly any power saving over the bulb it was supposed to be replacing.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Tim Hall on 14 May, 2013, 08:31:17 pm
The kitchen has 5 R63 E27 spots in the ceiling, some 40W, some 60W. I took the plunge and ordered 5 x 3w E27 LED lamps from LED Hut, like this. (http://www.ledhut.co.uk/led-bulbs/e27-led-bulbs/e27-led-3x1-watt-dimmable-bulb-320-lumens-45-watt-equiv-3x1-5050-smd-chips.html)  Arse. Much too small for the fitting. The cap is OK, obviously, but the lamp itself is weeny, and gets lost in the flush mounted ball type housing.

Any recommendations for an R63 size LED lamp?  30 degree spread apparently.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Bledlow on 14 May, 2013, 08:42:50 pm
...  I tried CFL, but as they blew after 3 weeks I decided the Tesco Halogen at £1.50 for 4 were a better replacement than the cheapest CFL I could get my hands on at the time at £3.75 each (so considerable money for 12 months worth)....
Why is it that every CFL I've ever bought has lasted for years, but others blow 'em in no time? Did you put in CFLs & keep using the old dimmer switches?

BTW, you can get dimmers that work with CFLs.

And why do people complain about them taking forever to come on? I just switched on the light in this room - straight on, no hanging around. The one in the bathroom sometimes takes a while, but that's ancient. It was fine for years, up to a few months ago.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 15 May, 2013, 11:22:40 am
LEDs are now old hat. Or will be. Perhaps.
http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/12/fipel-wonder-light-where-are-the-numbers/
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: nuttycyclist on 15 May, 2013, 03:06:14 pm
...  I tried CFL, but as they blew after 3 weeks I decided the Tesco Halogen at £1.50 for 4 were a better replacement than the cheapest CFL I could get my hands on at the time at £3.75 each (so considerable money for 12 months worth)....
Why is it that every CFL I've ever bought has lasted for years, but others blow 'em in no time? Did you put in CFLs & keep using the old dimmer switches?

BTW, you can get dimmers that work with CFLs.

And why do people complain about them taking forever to come on? I just switched on the light in this room - straight on, no hanging around. The one in the bathroom sometimes takes a while, but that's ancient. It was fine for years, up to a few months ago.

Definitely not on a dimmer ;)  I'm not stupid.   Straightforward switch.   I think the problem that kills them is that I turn the lights off when I leave a room, so they are being turned off while still in the 5 minute startup time.

As for ages to turn on, maybe my body clock is different but the last bulb I timed (before throwing it away in disgust, was still a faint glimmer after I'd walked into the room, rummaged in a cupboard, gone back to a different room to get a torch, gone back to the cupboard and found the stuff, and then turned the light on as I'd finished.     We were turning the light on at least 30 minutes before using the room if we planned ahead.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: simonp on 15 May, 2013, 03:12:26 pm
I've yet to see an LED light fail. The light quality is fine. A bit bluer than incandescents but similar to sunlight. They are full brightness in a fraction of a second. IF a light fails after 6 months, probably you should get a replacement or refund. And they should be far more robust against short duty cycle use than CFLs.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Biggsy on 15 May, 2013, 03:29:31 pm
I had an LED fail, as mentioned up thread.  It'll take more than that to put off the whole concept, though.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Bledlow on 15 May, 2013, 07:37:20 pm
...  I tried CFL, but as they blew after 3 weeks I decided the Tesco Halogen at £1.50 for 4 were a better replacement than the cheapest CFL I could get my hands on at the time at £3.75 each (so considerable money for 12 months worth)....
Why is it that every CFL I've ever bought has lasted for years, but others blow 'em in no time? Did you put in CFLs & keep using the old dimmer switches?

BTW, you can get dimmers that work with CFLs.

And why do people complain about them taking forever to come on? I just switched on the light in this room - straight on, no hanging around. The one in the bathroom sometimes takes a while, but that's ancient. It was fine for years, up to a few months ago.

Definitely not on a dimmer ;)  I'm not stupid.   Straightforward switch.   I think the problem that kills them is that I turn the lights off when I leave a room, so they are being turned off while still in the 5 minute startup time.

As for ages to turn on, maybe my body clock is different but the last bulb I timed (before throwing it away in disgust, was still a faint glimmer after I'd walked into the room, rummaged in a cupboard, gone back to a different room to get a torch, gone back to the cupboard and found the stuff, and then turned the light on as I'd finished.     We were turning the light on at least 30 minutes before using the room if we planned ahead.
Turning 'em on & off all the time is wasteful. If you insist on doing that, don't buy CFLs. It breaks them quickly. It's cheaper & more energy efficient to leave them on unless you're leaving the room for a significant time.

In my experience, a very long start-up time is usually a sign that the CFL is getting old & work out. It also gets dimmer. New ones have always started fairly quickly, & they've got quicker over the years. In your case, it could be because you wreck them quickly.

Don't blame the lights for your misuse of them.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: nuttycyclist on 17 May, 2013, 11:27:05 pm
And there lies my gripe with so called "energy efficient" bulbs.    If I walk into a room, turn on light, find what I'm looking for and leave, then I'm using just a few seconds of energy.   If I want to protect my CFL and so leave it on all night so as to not "misuse them", I'm burning more energy then by having proper bulbs that are getting trickier to buy.

I have to admit that this thread is titled LED room lighting, and I haven't yet tried that, but Biggsy isn't the first report I've heard that has had a light fail quickly - and at the prices they are I really don't want to experiment with kitting a house out and finding that I've wasted money.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: TimO on 18 May, 2013, 09:58:05 am
There is a great variety to both CFLs and LED bulb replacements.  I've bought CFLs both in the past, and recently which have varied greatly in how fast they'll start up, and for how long they'll continue to start up fast.

I had one in my living room which was bright, and got that bright in only a few seconds, but after a couple of years, was taking a significant amount of time to get to a reasonable brightness level, over five minutes.  This is probably one of the lights in my house which gets used the most, and was rarely turned on and off in a short period of time.  Admittedly an incandescent would possibly have not lasted as long, but given the price of high brightness CFLs, this one over its useful lifetime probably cost more than equivalent incandescents would have.

On the other hand, a really bright incandescent bulb often gets very hot, and can't be used in some fittings, typically enclosed ones, because of this.  Even quite bright CFLs rarely get that hot.

We've bought a handful of LED lamps at work, experimenting with task lighting, because I wanted something that was very bright, but didn't generate too much heat (not good when you're inches away from the lamp).  We found some cheap ones, which are basically a hundred odd small LEDs in one unit, and whilst they're OK, they aren't really bright enough for this sort of function, probably being roughly equivalent to a 30W incandescent (but only 4W or 5W iirc).  I did find a ludicrously expensive unit which provides plenty of light (probably equivalent to a 150W incandescent), but it's also very large and heavy, and the cheap lamp fitting we were using couldn't really hold it up!  It was over £50 iirc.

Looking around on places like eBay and Amazon, there are a lot of cheap LED lights, but they often get very indifferent reviews, and high failure rates don't seem to be uncommon with cheap units.  Given the relatively high costs (even of the cheap ones), I think I'd stick with buying them from a reputable supplier, but decently bright bulbs at a moderate cost are still relatively rare, and for some of the more unusual sizes, can be damned near impossible to find.

I wonder how well the brightness will last in some of these units.  Whilst there are testing bodies carrying out certification of LED bulbs, by their very nature even with accelerated testing, it takes a long time to test how well an LED will retain its brightness (months of continuous operation), so many of the reputable manufacturers haven't released fully compliant devices yet.  Over driving the LEDs does produce brighter models, but at the cost of reduced lifetime, and lower efficiencies. There's a risk that less reputable suppliers will chuck out these sort of models, and give the technology a bad name.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Biggsy on 18 May, 2013, 10:38:40 am
LEDs will last a very long time indeed if not over-driven.  The product I bought was a random unbranded Chinese job.  I look forward to the "corn cob" type LED bulbs being available from reputable makes and retailers.  Meanwhile, I don't expect value for money from this particular kind of thing.  LED spotlights are something different - should find good ones more easily.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: nuttycyclist on 18 May, 2013, 03:35:01 pm
It was the LED spotlights that my brother-in-law had.  They were a very distinct LED blue light, gave very torch-like beams instead of the wider beam the original halogens gave out.   Nobody liked the light in that room and he was laughing at the experiment into the newer technology, thinking of going back to normal bulbs.     

From memory the halogen bulbs he took out were 25W, and when he took the LED to work and checked it on the bench he found the claimed 5W LED was pulling more of a 15-20W.   Not much energy saved, but a lot of usable light output reduced.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Jurek on 18 May, 2013, 04:03:12 pm
I've just bought 3 x 4w LED MR16s to replace the 50w halogen bulbs in the uplighters in my front room.
I can't say that I'm over-impressed, but then again, I wasn't with the amount of light the halogens were chucking out.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: arvid on 18 May, 2013, 06:39:27 pm
In November I bought a 4x50W halogen frame and immediately replaced the halogens with those really expensive Philips LEDs. The color is fine, but I will notice some flickering now and then. Probably just the 50Hz of the mains. This can be annoying while reading a book.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Bledlow on 24 May, 2013, 10:30:52 pm
And there lies my gripe with so called "energy efficient" bulbs.    If I walk into a room, turn on light, find what I'm looking for and leave, then I'm using just a few seconds of energy.   If I want to protect my CFL and so leave it on all night so as to not "misuse them", I'm burning more energy then by having proper bulbs that are getting trickier to buy.
But how often do you walk into a room, look around for a few minutes, then leave? Are you really doing it often enough to break the lights in weeks? I find that hard to imagine. How many rooms do you have that you enter frequently but briefly? I can't see how anyone would do enough walking into & out of rooms for a minute or two to break CFLs quickly. Most of the rooms in my house are occupied in relatively solid blocks or time, so it makes sense to leave the light on, or it's off. I believe this is quite normal. Neither I nor Mrs B spends much time dashing from room to room. Yes, one of us sometimes wants to fetch something from a dark room. Fine - light on & off. But that doesn't add up to lots of cycles per light per day.

I don't leave my CFLs on all night. The bathroom light, especially, gets switched on & off fairly frequently.   It tends to get left on at times when the bathroom is experiencing heavy traffic, such as early morning & last thing before going to bed, but otherwise it's on & off when needed. It lasts for years, just like all the others.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 22 July, 2013, 06:44:49 pm
40% failure rate in 22 months now.  Chinese shite.  The last one failed and the replacement fell apart as soon as I took it out of the box.

As John Ruskin said:

Quote
There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.

Except that everything is Chinese shite now.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: David Martin on 22 July, 2013, 08:39:40 pm
The early cheap LED lights were crap. The ones in the kitchen are now pushing 12 months minimum with no failures (11 lamps from various manufacturers)
Just bought some for the new bathroom fittings.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 11 October, 2013, 06:50:31 am
Average life of anything not made by Philips - no failures there -seems to be 12 months and can be as little as zero (i.e. the thing falls apart when you remove it from the box).  The old halogen MR16 lamps ran for TEN YEARS without a single lamp failure.

The LEDs have cost way in excess of the electricity savings.  The technology is fine but the hucksters and con artists in China have flooded the market with shite.

Now that Philips have started making MR16 LED lamps I will have to start replacing with those; I can buy 10 no-name LEDs for 1/5 of the price but they will only last a few weeks - they really are that bad.

Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Polar Bear on 11 October, 2013, 07:02:39 am
We're just about to replace an ageing Ikea 4x20w, 12v fitting with a track, 4 heads and 4 led gu10 bulbs.   Philips bulbs from the local high street specialist lighting purveyor with a receipt so that early failure can be addressed.

The existing Ikea fitting has literally started to crumble. 
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: CAMRAMan on 11 October, 2013, 08:57:38 am
I recently bought 4 gu10 lamps from LIDL. They are impressive with regard to the brightness and colour they put out. I'll report back on longevity later. Much later, hopefully. 4 for £18.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Biggsy on 11 October, 2013, 10:55:38 am
Update on the corncob LED bulb I mentioned before: only one of the several I bought and use failed.  The rest are still fine after a year or so.  These are not spot lights, they have multiple LEDs in a corncob style arrangement.  The "Day White" ones are pretty close in colour to real daylight.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: ian on 11 October, 2013, 11:14:26 am
We've been replacing halogen spots with LEDs for the past couple years (mostly just waiting for the halogens to pop). I keep meaning to just replace the lot of them (but there are loads of them and it involves ladders and cranky fittings that make me swear, and – oh – I'm lazy). I think a mix of Philips and Ikea. Anyhow, they've been fine and not one of the LEDs has failed.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Pickled Onion on 11 October, 2013, 12:21:05 pm
I was a fairly early adopter of LED GU10s starting with a batch of 10 about four years ago, we now have approx 40. The early ones were disappointing in output and colour, but the latest ones are excellent, better than halogens. Five of the earliest batch have been replaced, all the others are going fine.

We have them all on for 8+ hours six days a week so the saving in electricity is about 600 pounds a year, out of a total layout of around 450 pounds (they were all bought at around the 10 pound mark). So on electricity alone they are a substantial saving, that does not include replacement halogens which used to be a weekly job to replace one or two that had blown. That's probably 3 or 400 quid over the four years (assuming 1000-2000 hour bulbs) not to mention the time and hassle of replacing.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: fuaran on 11 October, 2013, 01:13:27 pm
Could do with a bit more light in the kitchen. Any recommendations for under-cabinet lighting?
Maybe some kind of LED strip light?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: jsabine on 12 October, 2013, 03:10:32 am
Fluo strips are cheap and proven technology - the only thing to note is that there are umpteen different sizes of T5 tube (the skinny ones that the fittings will use) so make sure you know the exact replacements you will need in 3 or 6 or 10 years. Avoid incandescent tubes like the plague - high power consumption, short life.

Point light sources (halogens, LED spots, even the mini CFLs my parents have) can give pools of light with much darker patches between - I'd almost always go for strips to illuminate a work surface. You'd probably want cool white rather than warm white or daylight tubes.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 October, 2013, 01:43:59 pm
Has anybody seen these LED imitations of filament bulbs from Panasonic?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spUH9FyCTh8
Apart from the definitely GlobalEnglish in which it is written and spoken, I'm unsure if it's merely designed to appeal to the retro-grouch (fixie hipster?  ;)) brigade or if it is a good idea?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Dibdib on 13 October, 2013, 06:51:02 pm
Thanks for the tips. Next time I'm in IKEA I'll be picking up a handful to replace the SIX 50w halogens in my kitchen.

Also going full-steam on getting rid of filament bulbs around the house. I've got the upstairs done, with just 32w of bulbs up there, but downstairs has a ton of old 60w/100w filaments and so a long shopping list :(
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Canardly on 13 October, 2013, 07:03:10 pm
What are people using in bathroom zones 1 and 2?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: jsabine on 14 October, 2013, 11:17:35 am
Fittings with an appropriate IP rating.

Either that or a good dose of hope.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: CAMRAMan on 14 October, 2013, 01:09:20 pm
LIDL are flogging Philips LED bulbs at 2 for £14 next Monday in my local store (Warwick). Otherwise £8 each.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 15 October, 2013, 06:45:15 pm
LIDL are flogging Philips LED bulbs at 2 for £14 next Monday in my local store (Warwick). Otherwise £8 each.
The 9 or 9.5W GLS-style ones are extremely good - claimed 40W equivalent but more like 60W in a pendent fitting because most of the light goes downwards.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: fossil on 25 October, 2013, 07:31:15 pm
I was a fairly early adopter of LED GU10s starting with a batch of 10 about four years ago, we now have approx 40. The early ones were disappointing in output and colour, but the latest ones are excellent, better than halogens. Five of the earliest batch have been replaced, all the others are going fine.

We have them all on for 8+ hours six days a week so the saving in electricity is about 600 pounds a year, out of a total layout of around 450 pounds (they were all bought at around the 10 pound mark). So on electricity alone they are a substantial saving, that does not include replacement halogens which used to be a weekly job to replace one or two that had blown. That's probably 3 or 400 quid over the four years (assuming 1000-2000 hour bulbs) not to mention the time and hassle of replacing.

 What make / model GU10's are you using Mr onion ?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Pickled Onion on 29 October, 2013, 08:17:33 am
I've tended to buy from ultraleds as they always seem to have the best quality/price point at any time. The latest ones I bought were
these U10WWCOB (http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/5w-cob-gu10-400-lumen-60-non-dimmable-warm-white.html)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: LEE on 29 October, 2013, 09:22:31 am
The rooms we use most are now entirely LED or Compact Flourescent.  The CFLs are "mood lighting" really as they still take too long to come on and don't give out much light.

I get my LEDs from LED Hut.

I have 6 downlighter LEDs in our most commonly used room plus a couple of LED "globe" bulbs in table lamps.  If I switch them all on I'd be using 32 Watts but usually it's either the downlighters (utility lighting) at 18 Watts or the two table lamps (mood) at 14 Watts.

I replaced 10 x 50W spot lights (GU10) in my kitchen with 3W LEDs.  I never turned them on before, I couldn't bear to think of 500 Watts burning away.  Now it's 30 Watts and the lighting is nicer if anything.  I have a few "tubes" under cupboards and 2 pendant lamps running 7 Watt LED "globe" bulbs.

I'm really happy with the lighting and now I can max out my two most used rooms for under 100 Watts.

Oh yes, my Home office I'm in right now has a ceiling spotlight running 3 x 3W GU LEDs and a desk light running a 7W LED globe.  So there's another 16W running all day.  I think it's perfectly possible to stay below 100 watts for you entire lighting needs at any one time (assuming you switch lights on/off as you need them).  That's 5 rooms with 20Watts burning.  That's 6 x 3W LED bulbs in each room...that's a lot of light and equivalent to just one old 100W filament..

Yes they are expensive but to me it's worth it for two reasons:

1) We both work from home and lights stay on a lot of the day (all day in Winter) so it probably makes economic sense (never checked)

2) I don't need to run around the house, like Hodges from Dad's Army, any more, shouting "turn that light out", because the light in question is probably 7 Watts.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Feline on 29 October, 2013, 12:02:24 pm
I'm very happy with my LED kitchen spotlight replacements for the 50w GU10's x8. They've now been in about a year with no failures. I used to replace a halogen bulb at least once a month between the 8 fittings. The light is less yellow/mellow than it was but we soon got used to it. A previous LED I had tried was very blue so had to be relocated.

I think they are a bargain for £5.59
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B006UR5IUY/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: JJ on 29 October, 2013, 12:30:55 pm
We have a mix of CFL and LEDs around the place.  The LEDS seem to be a better replacement for halogen spots simply because of shape and size, but they also have the advantage over ageing CFLs of coming up to full brightness instantly, rather than needing a few minutes to warm up.  Compared with halogen, I love that I can reach up and direct the spot where I want it without using oven-gloves!

In another house that we use, which is off the grid, I put in a tiny solar setup.  It uses an inverter and 220V so that we can still switch back to the generator.  The LEDs are noticeably more efficient than CFL at eking out the battery, and respond better to switching on and off as we move round the house, which adds to the gain.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ian H on 29 October, 2013, 01:11:58 pm
By chance we discovered an advantage of LEDs. Our kitchen is LED. During the last power cut there must have been some residual current flow. All lights and power went off, except the LEDs which were a little dimmer, but not much.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: LEE on 29 October, 2013, 02:06:22 pm
Building Regs should really stipulate only LED lighting in new-build houses I think.  Conceivably every new house would be running a max of 100 Watts of lighting.

That and compulsory rain-harvesting for "grey water" use, Solar water heating panels and possibly Heat Pumps.

It's relatively cheap to install this stuff at the time of building, especially when you have economy of scale of a large development, but prohibitive post-build, on an individual basis.

I was looking at some of the large water butts (actually shallow, "under lawn" tanks) you can buy for rain harvesting and my one piece of advice is not to search on Large Butts unless you have Google safe-search on.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: tiermat on 29 October, 2013, 04:15:14 pm
Getting back on topic, I have been inspired to look at replacing the G4 lamps in our house (we have 3 light fittings that use them, and between them they use >30 lamps).

My first thought was "I don't know if they will be available" G4, 10 or 20W, 12V.

Sure enough you can get them, whther they are more efficient than normal halogens (the transformer might make the whole exercise pointless from a power saving viewpoint), or indeed if a couple of the fittings will work with them (we have at least one that doesn't work unless there is a certain load on it).

BUT, at £18 for 10 off ebay, it's cheaper than buying the "normal" lamps (£4 for 2 RING ones), so worth a punt.

When I am back up north I will count up exactly how many I need and have a stab at replacing them all (some are easier than others, due to the glass shades on the fittings).  Maybe it will stop TLD moaning about all the lamps that keep blowing in hers (mainly due to constant on/off cycle she puts her light through)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Asterix, the former Gaul. on 30 October, 2013, 08:27:54 am
Have just bought a supermarket LED 8w=40w bulb B22 BC, 470 lumens, 25 year life, 40,000 switching cycles. £9.

Works excellently.  I'll let you know if it lasts 25 years.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 30 October, 2013, 10:21:44 am
My unbranded ones last an average of a year.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 October, 2013, 11:49:45 am
I would hope that in 25 years it'll be obsolete even if it is still working!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Biggsy on 08 November, 2013, 08:31:40 pm
Elfin safety issues:

Dangerous GU10 LED Spot Light is Cheap and Bright but could Kill you: http://youtu.be/keaE7QTKTYE

LED Tube Lighting Install & Theory: http://youtu.be/saYtnaBp4QA
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: David Martin on 09 November, 2013, 10:42:51 am
Thanks for that - my kitchen ones are all MR16 12V (and I have to replace one of the transformers which will not be pleasant). I'll double check the bathroom.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Feline on 09 November, 2013, 12:11:26 pm
Elfin safety issues:

Dangerous GU10 LED Spot Light is Cheap and Bright but could Kill you: http://youtu.be/keaE7QTKTYE

LED Tube Lighting Install & Theory: http://youtu.be/saYtnaBp4QA

To be fair it would could only kill you if you grab the bulb while it is turned on (who does that with a ceiling spot light?).
My GU10 LEDs are not bare like that one, although of course the innards could be similar, I've not taken one apart and wouldn't really know what I was looking at anyway. TBH I'm not really bothered since they are saving me a whole heap of electricity and I've no intention of touching them.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Biggsy on 09 November, 2013, 12:38:37 pm
To be fair it would could only kill you if you grab the bulb while it is turned on (who does that with a ceiling spot light?).

A lot of people, when fitting bulbs - they don't turn the light switch off first (edit: or the switch may be wrongly wired, as David points out).  They'd have a 50% chance of shock.  Accidentally touching the front of the bulbs at other times would be dangerous as well.  Spot lights can be on walls as well as ceilings.

They'd be ok if you identified the neutral terminals on the bulb and socket, and stuck to the correct orientation, but typical consumers won't know to do that, and how to do that.  (The terminals are not marked).

By the way, the critical commentators (idiots) on YouTube have missed the point that the bulbs can be fitted the wrong way round.  Don't read the bottom half of the internet!

The other video about tubes also describes some products that can be dangerous - some only during fitting, and some that leave the housing live all the time after inadequate insulation fails.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: David Martin on 09 November, 2013, 02:08:32 pm
If you household wiring is wrogn (switch on the neutral rather than live) then this could be very nasty indeed. I've reposted elsewhere so hopefully people are aware.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: TimO on 10 November, 2013, 03:43:37 pm
... and, aside from the various ways you can come unstuck as described above, whilst it may be "safe" once installed, that assume that it's fitted out of the way, on a ceiling for example.  If fitted somewhere more accessible, on a wall, or in a tabletop lamp, it would be very easy to brush against it, and get a shock.

I'd also be very suspicious of a device designed and built to those lax standards.  Either the manufacturer doesn't understand how it's unsafe, or doesn't care.  Either way, I'd wonder what other gotchas may be lurking there, such as inadequately speced components (or even deliberately mismarked ones) that could fail in a dangerous fashion, and cause a fire, especially if the materials used are not adequately fireproof.

With something as iffy as this, there are so many potential failure mechanisms, that it's probably best thrown into the rubbish bin, rather than used on the mains.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: interzen on 10 November, 2013, 06:05:51 pm
Have just bought a supermarket LED 8w=40w bulb B22 BC, 470 lumens, 25 year life, 40,000 switching cycles. £9.

Works excellently.  I'll let you know if it lasts 25 years.
I recently picked up a bunch of Duracell-branded 8W/40W B22 bulbs at the local Asda for the princely sum of a fiver each - very impressed so far, and not just on the power consumption front either.

Not sure if the offer is still running, but if you're not wanting something stupidly bright that causes small creatures to spontaneously combust at 50yds then they're definitely worth a punt.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: fossil on 19 December, 2013, 09:55:38 pm
I have just purchased a set of six of theses http://www.beamled.com/bri-tek-3-3w-spotlight-bulb-gu10-equivalent-to-30w-120-beam-angle-true-retrofit.html

 the first order I put in I went for the "cool white"  as I thought I didn't want a dim room , how wrong was I ??
 OMG it was a blinding ice white light from out side it looked like I was running an arc light from the war !,
 a phone call to the company and I now have the "warm white" not yellow at all and theses lamps give a great spread of light fully illuminating our kitchen not like the std halogens .

 Very happy bunny

 Regards
  Ade
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: spesh on 20 December, 2013, 12:38:44 pm
I have just purchased a set of six of theses http://www.beamled.com/bri-tek-3-3w-spotlight-bulb-gu10-equivalent-to-30w-120-beam-angle-true-retrofit.html

 the first order I put in I went for the "cool white"  as I thought I didn't want a dim room , how wrong was I ??
 OMG it was a blinding ice white light from out side it looked like I was running an arc light from the war !,
 a phone call to the company and I now have the "warm white" not yellow at all and theses lamps give a great spread of light fully illuminating our kitchen not like the std halogens .

 Very happy bunny

 Regards
  Ade

The wide beam angle's good, most of the LED spots I've been looking at have quite limited beam angles... I'll add those guys to my bookmarks folder for later reference.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Diver300 on 15 February, 2014, 09:30:21 pm
I've just installed 11 of these:-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007Z1ZOZI (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007Z1ZOZI)

to add to the 6 that I bought about a year ago. I've now reduced the installed lighting load in the new house by over a kW.

I think that the GU10 lamps give out nearly as much light as the 50 W ones they replace, but the light spread is better, so the extra light from the 50 W was wasted in overbright areas.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Canardly on 16 February, 2014, 09:19:45 am
As pointed out above I would take claimed life cycles with a large pinch of salt. However is the lighting of the future.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Feline on 16 February, 2014, 04:14:24 pm
I used to have to replace a GU10 halogen bulb approx once a fortnight in my kitchen and utility room (8 of them). Since getting the same ones Diver300 linked to above I haven't had a single one go in well over a year now. I think they've already paid for themselves twice over  :thumbsup:

I find myself now eyeing up the few remaining old style low energy bulbs left in the house wanting to replace them with LEDs, buts it's hard to justify that until they go, which they rarely do!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 16 February, 2014, 08:38:21 pm
Never mind all this LED lighting business, what we really need are some dark-emitting-diode fixtures, to cancel out all those obnoxious LEDs that designers seem to think are a good idea to use as power indicators.  Or alternatively, use those ones for lighting, as they seem to be so good at it.

(I installed some new smoke alarms last week, and the unit that sits on barakta's side of the bed to do strobey vibratey things when they go off needed about 10 layers of masking tape to bring the brightness of its "mains power on" LED down from room-illumination levels.  Why would you put an uber-bright power indicator on a device that people are going to have next to their bed?)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Diver300 on 17 February, 2014, 05:31:20 pm
  Why would you put an uber-bright power indicator on a device that people are going to have next to their bed?)

Because the LEDs that you can get now are so much brighter than the ones that the product was designed with?

I am surprised you resorted to masking tape, not an additional resistor in series with the offending LED.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 17 February, 2014, 05:46:57 pm
  Why would you put an uber-bright power indicator on a device that people are going to have next to their bed?)

Because the LEDs that you can get now are so much brighter than the ones that the product was designed with?

I am surprised you resorted to masking tape, not an additional resistor in series with the offending LED.

It was bed time, and I tend not to hack devices before they've had a chance to prove themselves not to be faulty, for ease of obtaining a warranty replacement.  But yes, that would be a better solution.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Diver300 on 17 February, 2014, 06:47:09 pm
I used to have to replace a GU10 halogen bulb approx once a fortnight in my kitchen and utility room (8 of them). Since getting the same ones Diver300 linked to above I haven't had a single one go in well over a year now. I think they've already paid for themselves twice over  :thumbsup:

I looked at 10 of the GU10 halogens that I replaced. I found 7 different makes. I changed them for LEDs in less than a month after moving in, but the number of different makes implies that the previous owners were changing bulbs quite often.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 February, 2014, 08:57:02 pm
We have 5x 50W GU10s in the kitchen. Only 3 of them work, the other 2 blew at least a year ago, probably 18 months, and we've no intention of replacing them as it's at least bright enough with the remaining 3.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: perpetual dan on 20 February, 2014, 10:10:59 pm
We have 12 fittings and 8 working, although one is a rather ineffectual and blueish LED I bought ages ago and barely counts as working.

The most satisfactory LED bulb I have is for a wall mounted candle style bulb in a shade. The directional glare is lost quite well and the colour is much nicer than the CF that it replaced.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Charlotte on 28 March, 2014, 09:17:45 am
7DayShop are now offering GU10 3.5W Non-Dimmable LED Lamps for £4.74 a piece - and cheaper if you buy more than one:

Clicky (http://www.7dayshop.com/special/led-energy-saving-lamps-bulbs/240-volt-gu10-3w-led/greenworld-gu10-3-5w-non-dimmable-led-lamp-daylight-35w-downlighter-replacement?)

I'm very tempted to switch our kitchen over to them - any reason why I shouldn't?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: tiermat on 28 March, 2014, 10:13:56 am
7DayShop are now offering GU10 3.5W Non-Dimmable LED Lamps for £4.74 a piece - and cheaper if you buy more than one:

Clicky (http://www.7dayshop.com/special/led-energy-saving-lamps-bulbs/240-volt-gu10-3w-led/greenworld-gu10-3-5w-non-dimmable-led-lamp-daylight-35w-downlighter-replacement?)

I'm very tempted to switch our kitchen over to them - any reason why I shouldn't?

Those ones might be a bit harsh, as they have no diffuser over the LED.

For a similar price, with diffusers, get thee to Costco.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Pickled Onion on 28 March, 2014, 10:49:11 am
They will be very blue at 5000K (cool white fluorescents are 4000K), and very much dimmer than 50W halogens. Unless your kitchen is way too bright at the moment, look for something with at least 450 lumens or so. Also you may want to consider ones with a wider beam angle, unless you have high ceilings and/or a lot of fittings
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Biggsy on 28 March, 2014, 11:12:04 am
Colour temperatures of fluorescents aren't always accurately described, so best not to compare to them.  5000K shouldn't really look blue at all.  The "cool white" LEDs* I use are 6700K.  Overcast daylight is around 6500K.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature

* Corn cob style LED bulbs, not in a kitchen, for supplementing daylight.  You might or might not want a warmer colour in your kitchen.  I dunno what chefs like.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: ian on 28 March, 2014, 11:30:34 am
We got these (http://www.ledhut.co.uk/gu10-smd-led-220-lumens-45-watts-equiv-best-internet-price.html) from LED Hut in warm white. I wouldn't say the light is particularly warm but it's not operating theatre-harsh either, so mostly ideal where you need bright halogen replacements (and they are bright as we have eight of them in the kitchen, sadly they revealed how tatty the kitchen was, so now I have to buy a new kitchen which made them probably the least cost-effective purchase ever). Not the cheapest, but bought on the strength of the reviews, and I'm very happy with them. Will be buying zillions more as we're having spots in the hallway and the new bathrooms.

Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Charlotte on 28 March, 2014, 12:06:06 pm
Four 35W halogens and white *everything* in our small kitchen is a bit much right now, anyway.

I may need to put in an order for those ones at LED Hut, Ian - they're no more expensive than Tesco own brand halogens.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 29 March, 2014, 08:58:01 am
I'm still concerned about the possibility of an electrical fire ... am I just being a worrywart? Given that nobody else seems to be, I probably am, but it is one of the main reasons I won't go for the cheapest LED, and the investment in branded LED is still a little massive.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: jsabine on 30 March, 2014, 12:47:44 am
In principle, the fittings will be non-flammable and should do a reasonable job of containing a lamp fire, especiallly as they are probably set into non-flammable surfaces anyway.

You should note that I am not an electrican, but I am blase.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: delthebike on 26 April, 2014, 09:12:41 pm
A ten month old Long Life  ::-) Lamp Company B22 LED 10w has thrown a wobbler! It started flashing, this morning on first turn on, like a fluorescent with a bad starter. Is it finished?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: simonp on 27 April, 2014, 11:53:27 am
I'd say yes. Not worth trying to fix it, surely it's under warranty anyway?

I think nearly every lamp in our house is LED. So far, no failures that I'm aware of.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 16 June, 2014, 11:32:18 am
About to take the plunge and buy 10, but still confused with the various labels.

Various sites list 5W as a replacement for a 50W eg
http://www.ledhut.co.uk/spot-lights/gu10-led-bulbs/new-5-watt-gu10-led-bulb-wide-beam-angle.html (you can get 10% off with code "10Today" from here) or
http://www.beamled.com/led-spotlights/gu10-led-spotlights.html

The top link, Lumilife claims 460 Lumens, the 2nd 270 - 300

Screwfix list a 7.5W Sylvania branded 50 W equivalent ... with 350 Lumens

But I thought in lumen terms a 50W was somewhere up in the 900-1000 territory? (as this site http://www.bltdirect.com/standard-halogen-gu10-light-bulbs-50mm-diameter showing 50W halogen as 950 Lumen, and listing 5W as 30W equivalent)

This vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb2MXPCD2YY shows that the intensity is higher, but the total output looks lower, at least as shown.

So, what IS a replacement for a 50W?

(my fittings will cope with the deeper bulbs. too, if they are better)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Pickled Onion on 16 June, 2014, 11:54:21 am
See my post upthread ^^ leds claiming 450 lumens or more are bright enough to replace 50W halogens, 350 lumens are not but may be sufficient depending on how much light you need. The Watt rating of an LED is as good as useless as an indicator of light output, ignore it. It can even be meaningless as an indicator of power consumption - eg it might be sold as 3W when in fact the housing contains 3X1W LEDs but the consumption of the unit is 5W or 7W.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 17 June, 2014, 10:05:50 am
Went for 10 of these http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/5w-9-x-5630-led-gu10-with-60-reflector-50w-output-warm-white.html in a room (office) that has them switched 5 + 5. This meant that I could see the difference between the two technologies. The LED are definitely brighter, although the colour at 3,000K is noticeably bluer than the halogens. Very happy with the result, though. V good service from UltraLEDs, and a two year warranty on the lights.

Should pay for themselves in fairly short order. about 6 months at 13p/Kwh  :o
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: andrewc on 02 August, 2014, 03:01:46 pm
Can someone recommend a reliable brand ?   I've been using Aurora 6W LED's in my kitchen and of the 6 I originally bought only 2 are now working after 2 1/2 years.   They start flashing & eventually die.   
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 13 December, 2014, 04:21:55 pm
Any recommendations for LED's to go in table and floor lamps? The CFL I've just removed from the table lamp was doing nothing much bar looking sickly so I've bunged an old 60w incandescent back in there while I get a new bulb. The fitting will take up to 100w but that might be slightly overkill.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Tod28 on 13 December, 2014, 04:53:15 pm
I posted this in a thread on lamp life

I bought a 480 LM (4W) filament led GLS lamp from B&Q and I find I have really bought a piece of the future for once.  Brilliant! (well actually 40 w tungstan equivalent bright, lovely actual 2700k colour temperature (to my eyes) and 120 lm/W) and a traditional-ish filamentesque light emitter.

Bought as a trial for £8

Some interweb searching has revealed these 750 lm jobbies for about £11 each delivered if you buy 5

I reckon CFLs are dead in the water now and can highly recommend the above 480 lm and will be investing in 5 of the 750 lm jobbies shortly

Can't say anything more!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: David Martin on 14 December, 2014, 12:08:58 pm
Tesco have the more intense ones for much less (£6.50 IIRC) . I have started replacing the CFL lights in the same way - well worth it

Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 14 December, 2014, 04:22:26 pm
Tragically, I'm finding myself resisting replacing the CFL in the bathroom with an LED lamp because the taking-a-minute-to-get-to-full-brightness effect is actually desirable when you go to the loo in the middle of the night.   :facepalm:
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Biggsy on 14 December, 2014, 05:06:57 pm
Some warnings about some LED bulbs from unscrupulous sellers:

http://youtu.be/M0fqceT9n5Q

http://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/LED-Lamps-using-5050-LED-chips-/10000000177064387/g.html

I've stopped buying corn-cob bulbs off eBay - with some regret, since I like the light they make (particularly the daylight white versions) and they're not available from any really reputable retailers.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: TimO on 15 December, 2014, 10:26:38 am
I've always been deeply suspicious of many very cheap LED lights on eBay (and similar).  The normal rule of "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" applies.

Overdriven LEDs will appear bright, but as mentioned in the second (eBay) reference they can get excessively hot, and that will exacerbate early failure or reduced light output.

Contrary to claims, LED do not last for ever, albeit they do last longer than incandescent bulbs, and driving them more aggressively just speeds up the drop in efficiency.  They'll get progressively dimmer, possibly fast enough that the supposed cost savings over other light types won't emerge.

I've not got enough LED lights at home, lon enough to see how bad that can be, but I have had to retire an Exposure bicycle light, where both the LED had dimmed significantly over several years of use, and the battery life had reduced below a useful level (and that's not a cheap light!)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: David Martin on 15 December, 2014, 12:13:07 pm
I've not got enough LED lights at home, lon enough to see how bad that can be, but I have had to retire an Exposure bicycle light, where both the LED had dimmed significantly over several years of use, and the battery life had reduced below a useful level (and that's not a cheap light!)

Are those two related, and given the increase in efficiency of modern LEDs, have yours really decayed or are they just not as good as teh rest as the rest have improved? I'd expect a set of LEDs to last much longer than a few years.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Biggsy on 15 December, 2014, 01:50:03 pm
I'd expect LEDs to last a human lifetime of typical use if not over-driven and not over-heated, with no noticeable loss of brightness.

The LED corn cob eBay bulbs I bought weren't even cheap, but still mostly failed within a few months and may be dangerous (although the particular ones I got don't seem to have exposed live parts, judging from my multi-meter testing).  Probably something's fundamentally wrong with the overall design, otherwise I think high-street shops would have equivalents by now.  Trouble is, I don't know of any other low-energy non-spot bulbs with such an almost pure white light for supplementing daylight.  :(
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Wombat on 16 December, 2014, 08:32:46 am
Tragically, I'm finding myself resisting replacing the CFL in the bathroom with an LED lamp because the taking-a-minute-to-get-to-full-brightness effect is actually desirable when you go to the loo in the middle of the night.   :facepalm:

Wot she sed...

We too, have resisted swapping the CFLs in landing and bathroom for LED lamps for that very reason.  Our kitchen light does tend to stop visitors in their tracks with a visible flinch, as darkness suddenly becomes bright daylight (well, 4000K, actually), in a fraction of a millisecond (apparently).  I have found that our new LED dimmer in the living room slowly winds the lamps up to full welly over a couple of seconds, which I actually find quite annoying.  If its set on full, and I push the switch, I want full, now, not in 2-3 seconds....
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 16 December, 2014, 12:44:43 pm
If I don't want to blast myself with light at "bladder o'clock" (TM Wowbagger), I use the little light over the mirror (which in our case is a fluorescent tube). I'd have expected Kim, being Kim, to use an Alpkit headtorch...

As for CFLs being dead in the water, I'd suggest that the thread elsewhere about getting the landlord to replace a bulb suggests a reason they won't be gone for a long time (unless LED prices come down to the same level). Taking all the light bulbs with you when you moved out used to be only a student prank or an act of spite.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 16 December, 2014, 01:39:42 pm
If I don't want to blast myself with light at "bladder o'clock" (TM Wowbagger), I use the little light over the mirror (which in our case is a fluorescent tube). I'd have expected Kim, being Kim, to use an Alpkit headtorch...

Ideally Kim, being Kim, would have the lights programmed to come on dim and red at bladder o'clock, thereby providing enough light to poll the state of the toilet seat (see rants passim) and check for the presence of Big Hairy Spiders and a sufficiency of bogroll, while preserving night vision for the stumble back to bed.

But that would require electrical infrastructure that's hard to retrofit to somebody else's bathroom.  So I make do with waking the bedroom computer screen on the way out, using the bathroom light in the usual manner, and finding my way back to bed by a combination of LCD glow and dead reckoning.

Barakta, OTOH, has better night vision than I do, and pees in the dark.  One day she'll end up swearing at a visiting penis-person, or the spiders will get her, and I'll say I told her so.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: TimO on 18 December, 2014, 07:19:46 am
I've not got enough LED lights at home, lon enough to see how bad that can be, but I have had to retire an Exposure bicycle light, where both the LED had dimmed significantly over several years of use, and the battery life had reduced below a useful level (and that's not a cheap light!)

Are those two related, and given the increase in efficiency of modern LEDs, have yours really decayed or are they just not as good as teh rest as the rest have improved? I'd expect a set of LEDs to last much longer than a few years.

I have a light meter to measure the output of the lights, so I know they've decayed.  If the driver is built correctly, the output voltage of the battery shouldn't effect the voltage used to drive the LEDs, so the light output level ought to be independent of battery behaviour, and there is still several hours of operation from the lights, just not as long as there should be.

I'd also noticed that they were dimmer, before I replaced them with newer lights, so it wasn't in comparison to anything more modern.

I probably use my bike lights a lot more than most people (I cycle more in darkness than daylight), but yes they ought to last a lot longer.  I have my suspicions that bicycle light manufacturers will have an incentive to drive the LEDs to operate as brightly as possible, especially with the expectation that the lights don't need to operate for many years, to compete with other manufacturers claims of brightness.  In other words, they may well be overdriving them (and hence reducing their lifetimes).
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 December, 2014, 10:14:02 am
As for CFLs being dead in the water, I'd suggest that the thread elsewhere about getting the landlord to replace a bulb suggests a reason they won't be gone for a long time (unless LED prices come down to the same level). Taking all the light bulbs with you when you moved out used to be only a student prank or an act of spite.
Having posted that the day before yesterday, what did I do yesterday? It was there in Sainso's, £5.99 compared to £4.49 for the equivalent CFL, so not hugely more expensive - though of course both wildly more than the old filament bulbs - but also not hugely more efficient; 6W compared to 9W for "40W equivalent". And in practice the LED and the CFL (a different one of unkown wattage) do seem to be equivalent to the surviving 40W filament bulbs (reflector types in a spot lamp, not use much, which is presumably how they've survived so long - though some just do survive). The LEDs and incandescents are a better colour than the CFLs, but the LEDs are also much newer, so we'll see.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 May, 2016, 09:41:19 am
Back to CFLs for a moment (we don't have a thread on them, as far as I can find), last night one failed quite unpleasantly. It had been flickering for a few days nights but we hadn't got round to replacing it yet, then last night it went completely dark apart from a couple of cm near the base. And it got very hot. So hot the room was filled with a horrible burning plastic smell. I took it out and put it out in the garden to cool down, it was that horrid. This morning I see the plastic near the tube is yellowed and has even begun to melt. It didn't feel hot when I took it down though. One of those funny coiled coil shapes, Prolite brand. I think it might have been a freebie from somewhere but I'm not sure. I shall replace it with an LED.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 21 May, 2016, 11:39:01 am
CFLs are the work of Stan!
LEDs are getting nicer and cheaper. Got my last by mail order (can't remember whether it was Amazon or ebay) . They weren't too pricy given their claimed longevity.
They have been brighter than anticipated and U'd suggest getting a LOWER wattage than you might think you need.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Crumbling Nick on 22 May, 2016, 07:50:32 pm
I've recently replaced lots of CFLs with LEDs from Toolstation. Surprise was that the light output from the CFLs had deteriorated so far without becoming obvious. I've been irritated by the failure rate of CFLs, therefore many of ours are not that old. The lighting in our living rooms is chandeliers/wall lights with lots of small "bulbs", so deterioration ought to be obvious  ???.

I'm not sure whether CFL lumens are the same as LED lumens. Obviously, CFLs take time (a minute or more) to warm up, so are not best choice for downstairs toilet. However beam angle seems to be a more important parameter for LEDs than CFLs; our ceilings don't reflect light very well & I suspect that's normal.

Current R.O.T. for LEDs is 120-130 lumens/watt for "omnidirectional" bulbs. Less than 100 looks less than best technology. However there are some interesting bulbs with about 180 degrees beam angle that work well. I've picked up several 4w, 330 lm bulbs from Poundland to replace 40w tungsten filament bulbs in odd cupboards.

I'm still waiting to see if the life of the LEDs is as good as the hype would lead me to expect.

Edited - 33lm for 4w would have been filament bulb territory  :-[ .
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Asterix, the former Gaul. on 23 May, 2016, 08:55:03 am
I have bought some LEDs from the local  Asda which has quite an impressive range of own brand bulbs.   
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hulver on 23 May, 2016, 10:34:32 am
I've had several GU10 LED bulbs fail quite recently. They were all bought around the same time.

They were these https://www.amazon.co.uk/SuperLEDTM-PERFECT-REPLACING-HALOGEN/dp/B007Z1ZOZI?ie=UTF8&redirect=true, linked to a few pages back in the thread.

On some there were black spots on the LEDs, most just started flickering badly before they failed. One failed in a very spectacular "BANG!" + blue smoke fashion.

I took a couple apart to see what the failure mode was. They all have under-speced capacitors in them. The one that failed with a BANG was full of fluffy capacitor inards. The caps are rated at 250V, when they should be rated at 400V. No wonder they've been failing.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 23 May, 2016, 12:13:48 pm
That's awful!  Designed for leftpondian electricity and mislabelled, perhaps?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hulver on 23 May, 2016, 01:00:15 pm
No, they're labeled as UK lights. Just cost cutting I think.

Certainly won't be buying them again.

I've got some IDEA LED GU10's in there now. They're doing an adequate job, although they're not as bright.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 18 October, 2016, 08:15:32 pm
CFLs are the work of Stan!
LEDs are getting nicer and cheaper. Got my last by mail order (can't remember whether it was Amazon or ebay) . They weren't too pricy given their claimed longevity.
They have been brighter than anticipated and U'd suggest getting a LOWER wattage than you might think you need.

Thread necromancy.

The claimed longevity of these lamps (30,000 hours) is a LIE!

Three of the four lamps in my kitchen have now failed in less than a year.

They have lasted around 10% of the stated life.

I am underwhelmed.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Diver300 on 18 October, 2016, 11:13:38 pm
CFLs are the work of Stan!
LEDs are getting nicer and cheaper. Got my last by mail order (can't remember whether it was Amazon or ebay) . They weren't too pricy given their claimed longevity.
They have been brighter than anticipated and U'd suggest getting a LOWER wattage than you might think you need.

Thread necromancy.

The claimed longevity of these lamps (30,000 hours) is a LIE!

Three of the four lamps in my kitchen have now failed in less than a year.

They have lasted around 10% of the stated life.

I am underwhelmed.
I've seen that happen. Many LED lamp manufacturers quote the life of the LEDs, and ignore the other electronic components, mainly electrolytic capacitors, that don't last as long as the LEDs, especially when used near their limits.

Some LED lamps will run on DC, and I have used lights with failed capacitors, that won't run on normal AC, by adding a rectifier and smoothing capacitor to the fitting.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 18 October, 2016, 11:23:15 pm
I have neither fitting nor power source to run these on DC. My kitchen is not very damp as most cooking is in either the microwave or gas oven. I would not term conditions here 'extreme.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Canardly on 19 October, 2016, 11:08:05 am
I imagine this is why there is such a wide price range out there between branded lamps and generics. We are now fully LED with a mix of Phillips and Screwfix's finest. The lastest being some 5w candle lamps. No failures as yet. We will see.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 19 October, 2016, 01:07:58 pm
I have neither fitting nor power source to run these on DC. My kitchen is not very damp as most cooking is in either the microwave or gas oven. I would not term conditions here 'extreme.

Nevertheless, conditions for the capacitor may be extreme, if it's in a badly-engineered lamp running close to its thermal[1]/electrical limits, and probably of a cheap knock-off brand to begin with.

Same problem that afflicts wall-wart power supplies with tedious regularity.  Even those from manufacturers who ought to know better.

(And of course even when you're armed with an ESR meter, soldering iron and a selection box of 400V electrolytics, you're often defeated by glue or snappy plastic.  Bastards.)


[1] The electronics may run substantially cooler if the lamp is used pointing upwards.  Manufacturers tend to be cagey about this.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 19 October, 2016, 01:25:31 pm
You will not be surprised to read that my lamps face downwards, into the room.
I suppose the fact that the fittings are recessed into the ceiling may make them run hotter.

Shame really; my kitchen lighting was close to optimal for me: bright, acceptable colour, no noticeable flicker.

It was all filament lit when barakta paid a visit but these were replaced by LEDS when they failed.

I function well in my kitchen; pity the lights are disappointing.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Jaded on 19 October, 2016, 01:34:30 pm
We've got 9 LED lights in our kitchen, 4 years of use no failures. I expect them to run at least 6 more years without failure as that is what they are guaranteed for.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 19 October, 2016, 01:37:20 pm
Have you kept the boxes so you can return them?

I don't think I did...
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: ian on 19 October, 2016, 05:35:27 pm
Ten of the luminous little buggers clinging to our kitchen ceiling supping on pure 240v snappy juice. No failures in three years. There's a zillion more in the hallways and bathrooms, but I think they run on DC. The bathroom ones definitely do. None of them have failed either. LED Shop branded ones.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Jurek on 19 October, 2016, 07:23:29 pm
I've just ordered 8 for the hallway.
The 'Porthole' style lights won't accommodate anything other than a pair of candle bulbs.
They've stopped doing the conventional filament ones (which were crap / no longevity whatsoever) and replaced them with a lower wattage, but brighter (and hotter) halogen version. These have the effect of toasting the ceiling plaster and rendering it incapable of retaining the screws that fix the lamps to the ceiling.
I'll see how I get on with the LED variants (Phillips)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 19 October, 2016, 07:57:45 pm
I have now emailed the Long Life Lamp Company Ltd, who on Googling, seem to operate from an office within a mile of where I am sitting (though their contact phone number is on the Uxbridge exchange) and I will see what transpires.
David has replaced the failed lamp.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: velosam on 23 October, 2016, 01:03:46 pm
I have been quoted about £10 per light to convert the house to LEDs (as I am currently running halogens, MR16s I think).

I have around 52 bulbs in the house.  Additionally some of them don't work as I think the transformers are blown.  I have no idea how to change or fix them, as they seem to be tucked away in the ceilings.

Is it worth doing the conversion at that price?

thanks

Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Canardly on 23 October, 2016, 01:27:14 pm
Simple maths. 7w per fitting plus lots of life as against 50 watt and 2000 hours for halogen and much lower temperatures surrounding the lamp. Leccy around the 16p per kw/h last time I looked but I could be out of date. Make sure is a good brand. Often transformer failure is due to excess lamp heat. You could however have the new ones run off the mains if they are accessible.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Jurek on 23 October, 2016, 04:36:34 pm
Screwfix prices on Phillips LED bulbs are ~ 1/3rd of those I've seen elsewhere.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: velosam on 02 November, 2016, 02:45:06 pm
I am being thick.

I have 52 of these blighters - MR/ GU16 in my house and want to change them.

For some reason some of the transformers are burnt out.

Am I correct that I simply buy new transformers and new holders and plug  them in or can I buy led bulbs that simply replace the MR/GU16?

thanks
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: David Martin on 02 November, 2016, 03:15:01 pm
If your transformers are blown then you may need new trasnformers. It may be a good idea to replace them with more appropriately specced ones anyhow. Usually plug and pray for GU16.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: velosam on 02 November, 2016, 04:05:51 pm
So can I just stick these in

http://www.screwfix.com/p/mr16-led-lamps-gu5-3-345lm-4-8w-3-pack/7303K?kpid=KINASEKPID&cm_mmc=GoogleLocal-_-Datafeed-_-Electrical%20and%20Lighting&cm_mmc=Google-_-Product%20Listing%20Ads-_-Sales%20Tracking-_-sales%20tracking%20url&gclid=CMHM3va0itACFUyNGwodTlQPOg



Also the transformers are
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: David Martin on 02 November, 2016, 04:07:03 pm
yes
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: velosam on 02 November, 2016, 04:14:15 pm
yes

Thanks again.

The transformers are Bambi - model tf -60pt
Pri 240v 50-60hz
sec 11.8v to eff 60W ma

for some reason a couple of literally melted, so do I just get the same and replace them?

Also it it worth changing the holders or shall I live with the two pins I have now?

With the switches I was going to get rid of the dimmers for 'normal' switches which should be better I hope.

thanks again
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: StevieB on 16 November, 2016, 08:59:12 pm
Yes, you can replace the transformers with the same ones, or similar... But there is another way:

I bought these holders:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00CJC3QDU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

which means I could use GU10  bulbs, which connect directly to the mains, thus removing the need for any transformers. Here are the bulbs I used:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00RXH4IV0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

All nine are still going strong since January.

I didn't need to change the fittings as in both cases the bulbs are held by a ring at the widest circumference.

Now, it could be the reduced current needed for LEDs (3W verses 25W halogen in my case) mean the transformers would no longer get warm, and thus last for ever. But I can say of the nine I removed only one showed no signs of melting, and that is based on the outside of the case - I hate to think what was happening inside! So I sleep easier with the transformers in the bin. 

If you think about it, my 3W LED bulbs are giving a light output similar to the old 25W halogens - it means the old bulbs were producing 22W of heat!

I should say you need to get a qualified electrician involved.


Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: BrianI on 16 November, 2016, 09:08:26 pm
An odd thing with the LED 3W G9 bulbs which are in the ceiling light on the top landing.  This light is switchable due to magic, from the light switch downstairs and the light switch on the landing upstairs.

Curiously if I switch it on downstairs, then switch it off upstairs, then the LEDs have a very faint glow which does not go away.  Conversely if I do the opposite, then they stay 100% off when switched off.

 ???

Makes for a handy night light for nocturnal toilet visits, just not sure it's doing the leds any good. 
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Feanor on 16 November, 2016, 09:21:52 pm
As I mentioned on another thread, be aware that 12v 'transformers' for halogens may not work with LEDs.

Some 'transformers' are not transformers ( which would be fine ); but are small 12v Switch-mode PSUs.
Some of these require a minimum load in order to start up properly.
A SMPS designed for 50W of halogen may simply not see the load from a few watts of LED, and just fail to start.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 16 November, 2016, 10:11:16 pm
Curiously if I switch it on downstairs, then switch it off upstairs, then the LEDs have a very faint glow which does not go away.  Conversely if I do the opposite, then they stay 100% off when switched off.

 ???

Probably enough capacitive coupling on the longer cable run to just light the LEDs.  Which just goes to show how efficient they are.


Quote
Makes for a handy night light for nocturnal toilet visits, just not sure it's doing the leds any good.

I'd say Mostly Harmless.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 10 February, 2017, 01:34:29 am
CFLs are the work of Stan!
LEDs are getting nicer and cheaper. Got my last by mail order (can't remember whether it was Amazon or ebay) . They weren't too pricy given their claimed longevity.
They have been brighter than anticipated and U'd suggest getting a LOWER wattage than you might think you need.

Thread necromancy.

The claimed longevity of these lamps (30,000 hours) is a LIE!

Three of the four lamps in my kitchen have now failed in less than a year.

They have lasted around 10% of the stated life.

I am underwhelmed.

And another one down
And another one down
Another one bites the dust!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rafletcher on 10 February, 2017, 07:32:19 am
We've had LED downlighters in our kitchen for a couple of years now, with no failures. They were Philips I think.

At work we have started using Enlight LED bulbs in place of CFL. I shall definitely be getting some to replace certain CFL's in our house as failures occur, as they have the advantage of instant full light a la filament bulbs, though to be fair the CFL's we have give 80% light instantly.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Jaded on 10 February, 2017, 07:53:05 am
We've had 9 LED downlights in our kitchen for 4.5 years and 16 in the remainder of the ground floor for 3.5 years. No failures and they are guaranteed for 10 years, so I'm not expecting failures for a while.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rogerzilla on 10 February, 2017, 08:03:25 am
I've had no problems in 3 years with Philips LEDs.  It's the unbranded Chinese shite that only lasts for a few days or weeks.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 10 February, 2017, 11:28:08 am
I might look for Phillips.

It seems filament R63s are still available, at lowish cost.

I am tempted to be a Bad Gurl!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Biggsy on 10 February, 2017, 12:03:17 pm
Yes, I'm switching to mostly Philips as well.  Fed up with Wilko LEDs failing far too prematurely.  The Philips ones are more efficient, too
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: offcumden on 10 February, 2017, 12:10:47 pm
Screwfix seem to be doing cheap LEDs at the moment.  No personal experience, though.
http://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-gu10-led-reflector-lamp-345lm-900cd-5-2w-5-pack/2275p
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 10 February, 2017, 12:55:08 pm
Thanks! I need R63s but I see Screwfix have  these very cheap too.

The nearest Screwfix is about half a mile away so I might send David out.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 20 May, 2017, 04:35:38 pm
Any thoughts about options for LED workshop lighting? I'm using fluorescent at the moment, but the SEEKRIT BUNKER is not that high, and is pretty dim. Plus, while I haven't yet smashed a tube, I've always regarded as just a matter of time, LED would help in that respect, too. I suspect the LED tape/strip is probably the best, I could increase the light by running multiples alongside each other.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: velosam on 03 July, 2017, 10:07:42 am
Yes, you can replace the transformers with the same ones, or similar... But there is another way:

I bought these holders:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00CJC3QDU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

which means I could use GU10  bulbs, which connect directly to the mains, thus removing the need for any transformers.

Being thick but how do these eliminate the transformers?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 03 July, 2017, 10:11:58 am
Yes, you can replace the transformers with the same ones, or similar... But there is another way:

I bought these holders:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00CJC3QDU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

which means I could use GU10  bulbs, which connect directly to the mains, thus removing the need for any transformers.

Being thick but how do these eliminate the transformers?
GU10 bulbs run straight off the mains
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: TimO on 03 July, 2017, 10:45:21 am
In slightly more detail, most common LEDs actually need a very low voltage, typically between 1.6V and 4V.

Historically, most incandescent and fluorescent lamps have been designed to operate directly off of 240V (or 230V, depending!)

Some lamps, and the ones being discussed here are probably MR16 Low Voltage halogens, will use much lower voltages such as 12V, hence need a transformer to drop that 240V to 12V.  One transformer is generally shared by multiple lamps.

Various techniques are used with LEDs, to drop that 240V to whatever voltage the individual LEDs need.  Typically White LEDs need between 3V and 4V, and simplistically a large number of small LEDs can just be wired in series (it's not quite as simple as that, but you get the idea).  Internal transformers can also be used, although a transformer for each individual LED "bulb" would probably be excessively expensive, so cheaper methods are used.  This is not apparent to users, because it's all done internally, within each individual bulb.

The GU10's that are being discussed are normally designed to work from the mains (240V) directly, rather than via a 240V to 12V transformer as MR16 bulbs are often installed with.  Both GU10 LED and MR16 LED bulbs, need some internal method of dropping the voltage (from either 240V for GU10s or 12V for MR16s), albeit it's probably easy to design the MR16s to do this, because of the smaller voltage drop.

(GU10 and MR16 are really descriptors for the physical connectors, but typically are used to describe small 240V and 12V bulbs, often used in installations such as kitchen lighting).

So, when using 240V mains, the transformers needed to drop from 240V to 12V for an MR16 compatible LED bulb, are not necessary with a GU10 compatible LED bulb.  This isn't really a feature of LED bulbs per se, which as I've attempted to explain, actually need a far lower voltage internally, but that's obscured by designing the individual units to operate from whatever voltage the original incandescent bulbs were designed to be used with.

There are some generalisations in the above description, but it's broadly correct in most cases.


As an aside, some very cheap 240V LED bulbs have been found, that allow very easy 'access' to 240V, because the many small LEDs used, are progressively dropping the 240V across a series of LEDs in series.  With a poorly designed case, the 240V can accidentally become exposed far more easily and less obviously, than with a traditional incandescent bulb.  You shouldn't be able to find these sort of bulbs in shops, because they're illegal to sell in the UK, but you may easily buy them from sellers on Amazon and eBay (or similar).
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Valiant on 03 July, 2017, 01:26:06 pm
Any thoughts about options for LED workshop lighting? I'm using fluorescent at the moment, but the SEEKRIT BUNKER is not that high, and is pretty dim. Plus, while I haven't yet smashed a tube, I've always regarded as just a matter of time, LED would help in that respect, too. I suspect the LED tape/strip is probably the best, I could increase the light by running multiples alongside each other.

I'm testing out a 6ft LED replacement for 8ft T12 flouros atm at the town hall. Will let you know how I get on. You're always welcome to come and see it in person if you're going past.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 03 July, 2017, 01:40:59 pm
To carry on that tangent, there are various techniques that can be used to drop 240VAC or 12VAC down to the ~4VDC used by the LEDs.  The circuit can be anything from a single capacitor (or even resistor) to a fully regulated switched-mode power supply (like the one in your phone charger).  Obviously more complicated circuits cost more, and are physically bigger, which means they tend to be avoided by no-name Chinese manufacturers, and whenever the electronics has to fit in a small physical volume (eg. the cap of a lamp).[1]

The problem with the simpler drivers is that they tend to result in the LEDs flickering or outright flashing on and off at double the mains frequency (100Hz in the UK).  This is one of those things that most people are either unable to perceive or are normally oblivious to, but can cause migraines, eyestrain and fatigue (as well as visual artefacts on moving objects, so contraindicated where power tools are being used).  Children, people with autism-spectrum conditions and those with some types of visual impairment are particularly likely to be sensitive to flicker, though they may not be aware of or able to verbalise the problem.

The other problem with cheap simple drivers is that they tend to be less power efficient, and are more likely to be running components at the limits of their rating, resulting in shortened life.  And as TimO says, some of them expose mains voltages in places where they might be susceptible to gefingerpoken.

Unfortunately, short of tearing down the driver electronics or performing measurements, it's hard to tell whether a particular driver is good or bad.  Someone who can perceive flicker might be able to tell just by looking at the lit LED, but that's no good when its still in its box.  Even the quality manufacturers aren't immune.


[1] The old-fashioned 'filament' style LED lamps (currently on display in a tragic hipster coffee shop near you) are nearly always a flicker nightmare.  There isn't room in the cap for a decent smoothing capacitor (a larger block of driver circuitry would ruin the aesthetic), and since the filaments consist of a long string of LEDs in series, the high turn-on voltage results in a particularly aggressive duty cycle.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: velosam on 03 July, 2017, 02:05:39 pm
Thanks Tim and Kim.

Given that half the MR16 are blown with the transformers, I may as well replace them with the GU10.

I guess the only concern is that the wire is not going to be long enough, can I buy holders with extra long wires, as everything I could find was short? Thanks

Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 03 July, 2017, 02:47:47 pm
Any thoughts about options for LED workshop lighting? I'm using fluorescent at the moment, but the SEEKRIT BUNKER is not that high, and is pretty dim. Plus, while I haven't yet smashed a tube, I've always regarded as just a matter of time, LED would help in that respect, too. I suspect the LED tape/strip is probably the best, I could increase the light by running multiples alongside each other.

I'm testing out a 6ft LED replacement for 8ft T12 flouros atm at the town hall. Will let you know how I get on. You're always welcome to come and see it in person if you're going past.

Might well take you up on that, thanks. I've taken to riding the A13 on my way home in preference to CS3 anyhow.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: TimO on 03 July, 2017, 04:28:49 pm
... I guess the only concern is that the wire is not going to be long enough, can I buy holders with extra long wires, as everything I could find was short? Thanks

A cursory search seems to suggest that most of these holders have wires which are around 15cm to 20cm long.  I imagine you could lengthen them, fairly easily, but do remember that these will be at 240V, potentially with a low but not trivial current in them.  I'd be somewhat careful about long single insulated conductors.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: velosam on 12 July, 2017, 07:18:31 pm
An update. Thank you all for your help. I managed to replace the halogens with LEDs (using the links above). 

So another update most of the house is wired around 70%.

I have struggled on a couple of ones:
1. On a few there is no slack to pull any cable out - all I have is the mr16 holder and the thin wires out of the transformer.  Is it safe to connect these to a gu10 holder via a junction box?

2. The bathroom lights have a different holder and housing. I think similar to this:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mr16+waterproof+housing&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_q8G24qHVAhUrD8AKHd-FAPIQ_AUIBygC&biw=1060&bih=476&dpr=1.51#imgrc=MlXVC2k3dMr7oM:&spf=1500894497926

except the bulb is in a holder?

Is there a simple way of changing these using the existing holders, I am not even sure I know where the transformer is.  I am not keen on removing the housing as when I have removed them off from the ceilings, a lot of the edges have crumbled away. Is there a solution to this at all  - larger housings, plastering etc?

thanks

sam
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 11 September, 2017, 01:54:04 am
CFLs are the work of Stan!
LEDs are getting nicer and cheaper. Got my last by mail order (can't remember whether it was Amazon or ebay) . They weren't too pricy given their claimed longevity.
They have been brighter than anticipated and U'd suggest getting a LOWER wattage than you might think you need.

Thread necromancy.

The claimed longevity of these lamps (30,000 hours) is a LIE!

Three of the four lamps in my kitchen have now failed in less than a year.

They have lasted around 10% of the stated life.

I am underwhelmed.

And another one down
And another one down
Another one bites the dust!

Lamp by my fridge has gone AGAIN! 7 months is 5040 hours. It's been summer. Hardly lasted 1000 hours. AAAARRRGGGHHH!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: SA_SA_SA_SA on 11 September, 2017, 05:33:09 pm
Does anyone know of a UK source for LED ES27 / BC-22 replacement bulbs that are 'FULLY ENCLOSED' rated (eg for use in Zone 2 bathroom lamps)?

I know they exist and are sold by USA on-line stores, but an internet search is not finding any on-line here in UK.
(NB Some seemed to have rather more heatsink-y looking parts if their case: == fins).

Screwfix catalogue makes no mention of such features:

I would of course prefer a real shop rather than internet purchases.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: SA_SA_SA_SA on 12 September, 2017, 12:39:07 pm
eg https://www.earthled.com/collections/led-light-bulbs-suitable-for-enclosed-fixtures-fully-enclosed-fixture-rated-led-light-bulbs (https://www.earthled.com/collections/led-light-bulbs-suitable-for-enclosed-fixtures-fully-enclosed-fixture-rated-led-light-bulbs)

But any UK suppliers?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 26 September, 2017, 01:20:05 am
So how TF am I supposed to get rid of failed lamps?.
The Sainsbury's facility within a sensible distance has been withdrawn.
David took some old lamps to Sainsbury's, where he had previously disposed of these lamps to find a sign stating they no longer accepted them.
He brought them back and was VERY unhappy.
Sainsbury's is still on the recyclenow.com website as having the facility.
Brent's Recycling centre is 6 miles away, Harrow's is MUCH less but will stop taking from non-Harrow residents soon.

I am not supposed to put these in my grey landfill bin but I'm not prepared to send David on another wild goose chase to get rid of them.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 26 September, 2017, 01:36:00 pm
Our bathroom light bulb (decent but oldish CFL) expired in a puff of magic smoke on Sunday night.  I had a rummage in the lightbulbs box, and - ignoring the useless exotica - came up with a choice of either:

Tesco seemed like the best option, and it lasted hours before it started making unhealthy noises.  So halogen it was, pending a bit of lightbulb shopping.

Yesterday I went lightbulb shopping.  Remembering that Wilko sell lightbulbs and have a number of them plugged in and operating on display, I brought the flicker meter with me.  They all had a measurable 100Hz ripple (though ambient light made it hard to determine how severe it was), apart from - ironically - one of those vintage-effect LED filament things that are barakta's nemesis.  I gambled on a filament-inna-pearl-envelope which does a convincing impression of a Real Lightbulb, and having brought it home I'm actually quite impressed with it.  Not really what I wanted for the bathroom, thobut, so I've had to play musical lightbulbs with the bedroom.

I think what's needed is a visit to a Local Electrical Shop on a quiet afternoon to see if they'll let me audition a selection of lamps with the flicker meter.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Gattopardo on 26 September, 2017, 05:57:00 pm
Ikea near by?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 26 September, 2017, 05:58:36 pm
Sort of.  In that that's a circle of hell I'd rather not delve into.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: sojournermike on 27 September, 2017, 08:33:42 pm
Our bathroom light bulb (decent but oldish CFL) expired in a puff of magic smoke on Sunday night.  I had a rummage in the lightbulbs box, and - ignoring the useless exotica - came up with a choice of either:
  • Countless 40W tungsten lamps we removed when we moved in
  • A 75W halogen lamp
  • A Tesco-branded CFL of unknown specification
  • An older looking CFL with "A BIT DIM" written on the base in marker pen

Tesco seemed like the best option, and it lasted hours before it started making unhealthy noises.  So halogen it was, pending a bit of lightbulb shopping.

Yesterday I went lightbulb shopping.  Remembering that Wilko sell lightbulbs and have a number of them plugged in and operating on display, I brought the flicker meter with me.  They all had a measurable 100Hz ripple (though ambient light made it hard to determine how severe it was), apart from - ironically - one of those vintage-effect LED filament things that are barakta's nemesis.  I gambled on a filament-inna-pearl-envelope which does a convincing impression of a Real Lightbulb, and having brought it home I'm actually quite impressed with it.  Not really what I wanted for the bathroom, thobut, so I've had to play musical lightbulbs with the bedroom.

I think what's needed is a visit to a Local Electrical Shop on a quiet afternoon to see if they'll let me audition a selection of lamps with the flicker meter.


Our visual cortex is supposed to be too slow to recognise 100 us flicker;) but have heard you discuss this before. Why are the led filament thingies Barakta's nemesis? That's a new one on me?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: barakta on 27 September, 2017, 08:42:24 pm
I can easily see 100Hz flicker as can about 4% of the population and a higher percentage than that get headache from it to a greater or lesser degree and it's linked to reading difficulties in children.

I am also sensitive to subtler changes in illuminance or ripple even if it's not actual on/off flicker which is more common.

Faux 1940s bulbs are often designed in such a way that they have a really harsh 100Hz flicker cos of how the controller electronics are designed.

Many autistic people can also see flicker, or are sensitive to it and get overload from it. People with migraine, epilepsy, and other disabilities may also have issues.  The lighting technology is massively outstripping the research on impact (short and long term) and regulations. People are often affected but don't realise that's why they're getting headaches and eyestrain.

I specifically have vestibular issues and a rare eye movement disorder which means I have no image stabilisation of my vision which means when I move my head I normally see everything a blur rather than static image. Under flickering light I get a stroboscopic effect and if the refresh rate is low or the change in illuminance is significant everything around me goes very stroboscopic and therefore distorted and I become extremely ill very quickly (severe migraine in under 5 mins without my blue lenses - with them I can manage an hour or two but get a headache for several hours afterwards).
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 27 September, 2017, 08:59:24 pm
Our bathroom light bulb (decent but oldish CFL) expired in a puff of magic smoke on Sunday night.  I had a rummage in the lightbulbs box, and - ignoring the useless exotica - came up with a choice of either:
  • Countless 40W tungsten lamps we removed when we moved in
  • A 75W halogen lamp
  • A Tesco-branded CFL of unknown specification
  • An older looking CFL with "A BIT DIM" written on the base in marker pen

Tesco seemed like the best option, and it lasted hours before it started making unhealthy noises.  So halogen it was, pending a bit of lightbulb shopping.

Yesterday I went lightbulb shopping.  Remembering that Wilko sell lightbulbs and have a number of them plugged in and operating on display, I brought the flicker meter with me.  They all had a measurable 100Hz ripple (though ambient light made it hard to determine how severe it was), apart from - ironically - one of those vintage-effect LED filament things that are barakta's nemesis.  I gambled on a filament-inna-pearl-envelope which does a convincing impression of a Real Lightbulb, and having brought it home I'm actually quite impressed with it.  Not really what I wanted for the bathroom, thobut, so I've had to play musical lightbulbs with the bedroom.

I think what's needed is a visit to a Local Electrical Shop on a quiet afternoon to see if they'll let me audition a selection of lamps with the flicker meter.


Our visual cortex is supposed to be too slow to recognise 100 us flicker;) but have heard you discuss this before. Why are the led filament thingies Barakta's nemesis? That's a new one on me?
If I'm paying attention I can percieve flicker up to about 1kHz, given movement of the light source or some object it's illuminating, but 100Hz doesn't bother me if there's no movement.  Barakta seems to percieve flicker at hundreds of Hertz just by looking at the source, and it only seems to become completely indistinguishable from DC at about 6kHz (fast and dirty test with a red LED, she may respond differently at other wavelengths).  Plus her eye movement disorder means that she sees stroboscopic artefacts (like you'd get by panning a slow exposure camera) every time she moves her head under fickering light.

The problem with the LED filaments is twofold: Firstly, the simple glare of a bright, small light source, and with the vintage-effect lamps, typically placed in a way that it's hard to avoid looking at.  More pertinently, the filament is a long string of LEDs in series, which means it doesn't switch on until it has, say, 150V across it.  Combine with a lack of smoothing capacitor (either through cost-cutting or the size constraints of hiding the electronics in the cap of the lamp) and you end up with the lamp flickering at 2x mains frequency with a particularly obnoxious (ie. close to 50%) duty cycle.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: sojournermike on 27 September, 2017, 10:46:21 pm
Our bathroom light bulb (decent but oldish CFL) expired in a puff of magic smoke on Sunday night.  I had a rummage in the lightbulbs box, and - ignoring the useless exotica - came up with a choice of either:
  • Countless 40W tungsten lamps we removed when we moved in
  • A 75W halogen lamp
  • A Tesco-branded CFL of unknown specification
  • An older looking CFL with "A BIT DIM" written on the base in marker pen

Tesco seemed like the best option, and it lasted hours before it started making unhealthy noises.  So halogen it was, pending a bit of lightbulb shopping.

Yesterday I went lightbulb shopping.  Remembering that Wilko sell lightbulbs and have a number of them plugged in and operating on display, I brought the flicker meter with me.  They all had a measurable 100Hz ripple (though ambient light made it hard to determine how severe it was), apart from - ironically - one of those vintage-effect LED filament things that are barakta's nemesis.  I gambled on a filament-inna-pearl-envelope which does a convincing impression of a Real Lightbulb, and having brought it home I'm actually quite impressed with it.  Not really what I wanted for the bathroom, thobut, so I've had to play musical lightbulbs with the bedroom.

I think what's needed is a visit to a Local Electrical Shop on a quiet afternoon to see if they'll let me audition a selection of lamps with the flicker meter.


Our visual cortex is supposed to be too slow to recognise 100 us flicker;) but have heard you discuss this before. Why are the led filament thingies Barakta's nemesis? That's a new one on me?
If I'm paying attention I can percieve flicker up to about 1kHz, given movement of the light source or some object it's illuminating, but 100Hz doesn't bother me if there's no movement.  Barakta seems to percieve flicker at hundreds of Hertz just by looking at the source, and it only seems to become completely indistinguishable from DC at about 6kHz (fast and dirty test with a red LED, she may respond differently at other wavelengths).  Plus her eye movement disorder means that she sees stroboscopic artefacts (like you'd get by panning a slow exposure camera) every time she moves her head under fickering light.

The problem with the LED filaments is twofold: Firstly, the simple glare of a bright, small light source, and with the vintage-effect lamps, typically placed in a way that it's hard to avoid looking at.  More pertinently, the filament is a long string of LEDs in series, which means it doesn't switch on until it has, say, 150V across it.  Combine with a lack of smoothing capacitor (either through cost-cutting or the size constraints of hiding the electronics in the cap of the lamp) and you end up with the lamp flickering at 2x mains frequency with a particularly obnoxious (ie. close to 50%) duty cycle.

Barakta and Kim

That's fascinating. And quite remarkable to perceive flicker up to 1 or even be aware up to 6 kHz. Makes me feel sensorily inadequate, although given that even I am quite fuzzy about lighting that may well be a blessing in disguise as we make 'progress'.

Had a quick chat with Sue about this too, as she spent the last xy years working with children with autism. Apparently they had high frequency lighting in their room - unfortunately not specified throughout the whole school she said, leading to some of the children just having a whole additional set of unnecessary challenges.

I must admit that I've been amazed at the crappy 'drivers' in LED bulbs. I would have thought that every manufacturer would just use a small cheap switch mode supply. Simply rectifying the ac is not efficient and bound to give a nasty output.

I'll comment on cfl's in the other thread.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Diver300 on 27 September, 2017, 11:33:45 pm
..... Combine with a lack of smoothing capacitor (either through cost-cutting or the size constraints of hiding the electronics in the cap of the lamp) and you end up with the lamp flickering at 2x mains frequency with a particularly obnoxious (ie. close to 50%) duty cycle.
The lower the duty cycle, the more obnoxious, in my experience.

Particularly evil are some car stop/ tail lights (VW) where the same brightness is used for both, but with a 10% duty cycle at 100 Hz for the tail light, and on all the time when braking. The 9 ms off-time is more likely to annoy other drivers than shorter off times. Of course, 9 ms off-time is only just shorter than you get with LEDs run from 50 Hz, half-wave rectified.

Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: fruitcake on 02 October, 2017, 11:18:26 am
So how TF am I supposed to get rid of failed lamps?

Hand them in at the information desk of any branch of PCWorld. Curry's will also accept them. They won't charge you for disposal.

Curry's/PCWorld have a policy of accepting any Ewaste for processing, whether or not they supplied it, as the easiest way for them to comply with WEEE law. You can give them any dead electronic items.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 02 October, 2017, 12:55:17 pm
Thanks!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Woofage on 02 October, 2017, 01:10:33 pm
Anyone know of a good source of 12V transformers suitable to drive LED spotlights? I want to replace some halogen lights in a display cabinet with LEDs.

TIA.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: barakta on 02 October, 2017, 01:12:54 pm
..... Combine with a lack of smoothing capacitor (either through cost-cutting or the size constraints of hiding the electronics in the cap of the lamp) and you end up with the lamp flickering at 2x mains frequency with a particularly obnoxious (ie. close to 50%) duty cycle.
The lower the duty cycle, the more obnoxious, in my experience.

Particularly evil are some car stop/ tail lights (VW) where the same brightness is used for both, but with a 10% duty cycle at 100 Hz for the tail light, and on all the time when braking. The 9 ms off-time is more likely to annoy other drivers than shorter off times. Of course, 9 ms off-time is only just shorter than you get with LEDs run from 50 Hz, half-wave rectified.

I really hate low refresh car tail lights. Not all of them do it, but some do it horribly and they're painful to look at. It's a good thing I can't/don't drive (mostly cos my vision is trippy as hec) cos they would be problematic!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Tod28 on 02 October, 2017, 03:10:15 pm
Anyone know of a good source of 12V transformers suitable to drive LED spotlights? I want to replace some halogen lights in a display cabinet with LEDs.

TIA.

I replaced a toroidal transformer with one of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/COOLWEST-Supply-Driver-Transformer-Flexible/dp/B016KFT536/ref=pd_nav_hcs_bia_t_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=X2PP2K8QZ03WTRHVZVFQ (https://www.amazon.co.uk/COOLWEST-Supply-Driver-Transformer-Flexible/dp/B016KFT536/ref=pd_nav_hcs_bia_t_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=X2PP2K8QZ03WTRHVZVFQ)  to drive 4 MR16 leds.

You just have to be careful of the startup current and not skimp on the capacity of the driver.

However, I recently saw some MR16s in a supermarket that ran on ac or dc so wouldn't need a change of the transformer.  Could have been these https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/294361030 (https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/294361030)  but the description is wrong as it says 240v!!

These https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/d220/LED+12V+MR16+Lamps/sd3209/Integral+LED+12V+Glass+MR16+GU5.3+Lamp/p25380 (https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/d220/LED+12V+MR16+Lamps/sd3209/Integral+LED+12V+Glass+MR16+GU5.3+Lamp/p25380)  definitely run on 12 V ac

Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 25 October, 2017, 05:45:26 pm
Just checked and light bulbs can't be recycled, at least here. You have to take them to the tip. Possibly they actually mean LEDs or CFLs as opposed to the old halogen bulbs that have just blown chez Cudzo, but they don't say and most likely the binmen wouldn't take it anyway. Not surprising, after all they don't even take brown plastic.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 25 October, 2017, 06:46:05 pm
Just checked and light bulbs can't be recycled, at least here.

That'll be because the recycling facility is just to busy with lightbulb jokes.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 25 October, 2017, 06:52:14 pm
So how TF am I supposed to get rid of failed lamps?

Hand them in at the information desk of any branch of PCWorld. Curry's will also accept them. They won't charge you for disposal.

Curry's/PCWorld have a policy of accepting any Ewaste for processing, whether or not they supplied it, as the easiest way for them to comply with WEEE law. You can give them any dead electronic items.

The nearest Currys/PC World is over 3 miles away.

The very first Dixon's shop opened up about a mile from here but is no more.

Such is progress!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 10 November, 2017, 10:57:09 pm
Yet another kitchen R63 down, after 193 days...
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: TimO on 30 November, 2017, 04:26:27 pm
I've just had a "100W" LED bulb fail, after about 10000 to 12000 hours of use.  Strictly speaking, it hasn't failed, but occasionally it will flicker very annoyingly, and I suspect it's only a matter of time before it fails, probably with me halfway down the stairs, so I'm preemptively replaced it.

It was a Tiwin 13W E27 super bright LED Bulb, which was supposedly popular in Germany, according to the Amazon webpage (I bought if from them, but they no longer seem to stock it).

I've replaced it with a Philips 100W warm LED bulb, bought from John Lewis for £7 compared to the £11 the other one cost me from Amazon.  It's also definitely brighter than the older lamp was, although that may simply be that the ratings are lower.

The Tiwin claimed between 1200 and 1400 lumens for a 13W actual, 100W equivalent, whereas Philips claim 1521 lumens for their 13W actual 100W equivalent.

I'm not complaining too much about a 10000+ hour lifetime, although they claimed 25000 hours average lifetime, and it's way below that.

The same Philips bulb appears to be £6 from Amazon, so prices are clearly still dropping.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: pcolbeck on 30 November, 2017, 04:31:57 pm
The Philips Hue bulbs are claimed to last about 18000 hours or 17 years at three hours per day. I hope so at £25 a pop for temperature adjustable and £12 a pop for plain dimmable ones. We will see.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 30 November, 2017, 04:32:50 pm
Sainsbury's now stock the R63 7w (60w equivalent) E27 fitting, lamps that adorn my kitchen for £5.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: TimO on 30 November, 2017, 06:58:18 pm
I must admit, I've got slightly more faith that lamps from large high street retailers, like Sainsburys and John Lewis, will prove to be more reliable, and possibly live up to some of the expectations.

On this occasion, I needed a particularly "bright" bulb, in the 100W(ish) category, and for some reason I had problems with other retailers being able to supply these.  Even Amazon stymied me, because all of the remotely convenient Amazon lockers were full, and I know a light bulb is not going to fit through my letterbox !
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Diver300 on 06 December, 2017, 09:40:42 pm
We've just had one of the Philips LED lights fail. It's on an automatic light switch in the hall, so not all that many hours, but lots of starts.

It looks something like this:- (https://s7g3.scene7.com/is/image//ae235?src=ae235/1616P_P&$prodImageMedium$)

I prised off the bulb bit at the top, which is just a diffuser and there's nothing inside it. Level with the top of the white bit is a flat aluminium disk, push fitted into an aluminium cone that is inside the white bit, to dissipate the heat. The LEDs are on an aluminium circuit board screwed flat down to the aluminium disk, and plugged into the electronics that are inside the white bit.

Two of the 8 LEDs1 had burned, one significantly, and one just has a small black dot. Neither conducts.

All 8 LEDs are in series. I've removed the burned ones and shorted out where they were, and it now works. If the electronics has been sensibly designed, and gives a constant current, I'll have bulb of 75% of the power, that should stay a bit cooler.

If the electronics hasn't been well designed, there will be a lot more current than intended flowing, and I would have expected it to fail instantly. I hope there isn't too big a risk of this:-
(click to show/hide)

P.S. I am not Big Clive.

1) Technically LED clusters, as each has two LEDs in series.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: pcolbeck on 08 December, 2017, 07:37:32 am
Someone somewhere else pointed out that a well designed LED lightbulb built with quality components would last so long that basically the lightbulb manufacturers would be looking at a vastly shrinking market compared to what they had with incandescents or CFLs. Basically you replace all your bulbs with LEDs then don't buy any more for at least 25 years! Hence there is no driver for them to make them as well as they could.
Plus a lot of people want to buy them for £1 and then complain that they go pop in a year or less.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 28 January, 2018, 12:24:44 am
Sainsbury's now stock the R63 7w (60w equivalent) E27 fitting, lamps that adorn my kitchen for £5.

I've just fitted one of these to replace yet another from the long-life lamp company.
We will see...
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 September, 2018, 02:19:18 pm
I've just replaced one of our last halucinogens, which had succumbed to accidental damage, with a 6500K "daylight" LED. It's visibly bluer and brighter than the other bulbs, which are all LEDs of various sorts, in the same room. I wouldn't say it looks like daylight; in daylight it reminds me of the light from my IQ-X. We'll see this evening what it's like in the dark, which is obviously what counts. It claims a life "up to 25 years" but as per the first sentence, accidental impact seems to be the demise of a lot of bulbs of whatever technology. Best of all though, it was only £1 for a two-pack in Wilko's! (I think the cashier might have made a mistake – I'm sure the shelf price was £6 – I queried it and she was adamant, so... )
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: andytheflyer on 19 September, 2018, 02:42:16 pm
It claims a life "up to 25 years"

Good luck with that. I've taken to writing the date I fitted an led bulb on the bulb itself so that I can go back to our local leccy bits wholesaler and shout at them when they fail. Usually by flickering, then dying altogether.  Pathetic lifespans. Don't think I've had more than a couple of years at maybe 25% duty max, and in some cases a lot less.  I've had some leds that have failed at maybe <1000 hours and have been replaced at no cost by the local supplier (an electrical contractor).

With the precious metals that must be in the electronics, don't tell me that they are good for the environment.  And don't start me off on anthropogenic causes of climate change.......

Time someone sued these charlatans for fraud.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 19 September, 2018, 02:49:03 pm
Sainsbury's now stock the R63 7w (60w equivalent) E27 fitting, lamps that adorn my kitchen for £5.

I've just fitted one of these to replace yet another from the long-life lamp company.
We will see...

Shhh...

No failures since January according to my records!

Maybe the Sainsbury's lamps are better.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 September, 2018, 07:54:33 pm
I don't think I like the "daylight" bulbs. They're cold and flat. Like fluorescent tubes rather than daylight.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: arabella on 19 September, 2018, 09:43:21 pm
the most recent IET magazine is about lighting.
They are trying to say that LED flicker isn't really a problem.
I should probably write to them with suitable references, I will use anything useful in the thread above, and elsewhere.
Please
(i) encourage me
(ii) remind me of that ref istr about LED flicker, and is it 'official' research or opinion?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 September, 2018, 09:52:07 pm
This? https://theconversation.com/leds-could-be-harmful-to-health-the-eu-halogen-ban-will-make-it-worse-102589
Research by "Arnold J Wilkins
Professor of Psychology, University of Essex

Disclosure statement
Arnold J Wilkins contributed to the IEEE1789 standard on LED lighting, but receives no funding from government or industry."
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: ian on 19 September, 2018, 09:57:18 pm
I will say that after five years, our first LED in the kitchen (from LEDHut) died a few weeks back. Our handyman got fed up with my persistent failure to replace it (I was getting around to it, jeez, it had only been three weeks!) and put a new one in for me. He didn't charge me, so I have no idea how much it cost.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 19 September, 2018, 10:31:19 pm
This? https://theconversation.com/leds-could-be-harmful-to-health-the-eu-halogen-ban-will-make-it-worse-102589
Research by "Arnold J Wilkins
Professor of Psychology, University of Essex

Here, have some SCIENCE with that: https://www1.essex.ac.uk/psychology/overlays/2010-195.pdf

AIUI Wilkins's work on visual stress is considered somewhat controversial, not sure how much that extends to lighting.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: barakta on 21 September, 2018, 09:27:11 am
https://standards.ieee.org/standard/1789-2015.html

There's an IEEE standard ^^

There's research into effects on health.

Problem is many people can't see them, but those with autism, migraine, epilepsy and some kinds of visual stress linked to dyslexia are more likely to be able to see it, or get headaches from them. A lot of places with lighting I can't bear have staff approaching me to say "I get headaches that stop when I'm off work/weekends".... But not bad ones, so they just put up with it...

Also Philips Vue bulbs can get in the bin, their flicker pattern was peculiar!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 September, 2018, 09:34:01 am
Do you know if that standard has any legal application?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: barakta on 21 September, 2018, 12:39:19 pm
Probably not.

There's very limited legal application for 'buildings' beyond basic health and safety requirements.

Part M of the building regulations is like a minimum standard but good luck enforcing it. BS8300 has more guidance but is 'guidance' and barely covers lighting.

That's half the issue. There is lighting which is making people ill and no way of preventing organisations from installing it.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: matthew on 21 September, 2018, 01:25:41 pm
It may be that the standard has limited legal force however most clients will have in their standards for a design specification (their contractual terms) that it must be in accordance with the relevant standards. Therefore it sounds like the architects need to learn that the standard exists and should be applied.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: fruitcake on 22 September, 2018, 04:47:07 pm
I see flicker that others don't (and I get migraine). My superpower is telling people when one of their flourescent tubes has reached end of life and is about to go pop. I discovered this ability as a teenager, when I'd tell my Dad the light was flickering more than usual, he'd say it's fine, and within a fortnight it would die. I also see flicker on the LED indicators on old battery chargers.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 24 September, 2018, 01:28:51 pm
As both Mrs Cudzo and I dislike the "daylight" LEDs and our son likes them, I've moved them from the living room to his room. In doing so, I found his room was lit by a CFL and a 60W tungsten filament bulb. I found another CFL in the hall, but pass-the-bulb has meant all three of these are now sitting in a box as spares, replaced by (non-daylight) LEDs. As he's always leaving his light on, in this case we might even see an almost noticeable reduction in consumption.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 24 September, 2018, 01:48:37 pm
On a related note, what is it with rich people and light bulbs?  This weekend's FNRttC lead us through the Moor Park Estate - a private road of ludicrous mansions with extensive traffic calming.  While modern LED fixtures were occasionally in evidence, there was more hot tungsten in their driveway lighting than I've years.

Barakta's stepfather's the same.  An eclectic mix of halogen and - as if to prove that it isn't some fussiness about the quality of the light output - bottom-of-the-range flickery CFLs.  His central heating timer is permanently set to 'on', too.

As for 'daylight', I wonder if this is going to be a generational thing, with 2700K lighting dying out with those of us who were brought up with incandescent lighting.  I know I associate orange light with warmth, but if younger generations don't have that association, why have lighting in unnatural colours?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 24 September, 2018, 02:04:23 pm
As for 'daylight', I wonder if this is going to be a generational thing, with 2700K lighting dying out with those of us who were brought up with incandescent lighting.  I know I associate orange light with warmth, but if younger generations don't have that association, why have lighting in unnatural colours?
I was wondering along the same lines. But Cdzzmc Jnr has grown up so far on tungsten, CFL, full size fluorescent tubes, and 2700K LED (not necessarily in that order). So I don't think he's quite that generation – maybe Nye is, but I expect it's the generation just being born. He prefers the 6500K because he reckons it's brighter, whereas we reckon it's harsh. It certainly doesn't look anything like daylight to me – as I think I said earlier (though possibly in another thread), it reminds me of my IQ-X more than anything else. But these are only cheapies from Wilko.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: ian on 24 September, 2018, 02:09:41 pm
I think people, even rich ones, only change the outside lighting when the bulb dies. The security lights at the back of my house are still halogen but they're mostly off. I did replace the lights on the front of the house as they're on from dusk till about 1am (and in the mornings during winter). It's pitch black once the streetlight goes off at midnight.

In other news, I'm a mushy ambient light sort of person. Spare me the harsh, angry photons.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 24 September, 2018, 02:15:44 pm
As for 'daylight', I wonder if this is going to be a generational thing, with 2700K lighting dying out with those of us who were brought up with incandescent lighting.  I know I associate orange light with warmth, but if younger generations don't have that association, why have lighting in unnatural colours?
I was wondering along the same lines. But Cdzzmc Jnr has grown up so far on tungsten, CFL, full size fluorescent tubes, and 2700K LED (not necessarily in that order). So I don't think he's quite that generation – maybe Nye is, but I expect it's the generation just being born. He prefers the 6500K because he reckons it's brighter, whereas we reckon it's harsh. It certainly doesn't look anything like daylight to me – as I think I said earlier (though possibly in another thread), it reminds me of my IQ-X more than anything else. But these are only cheapies from Wilko.

Proper daylight lamps (of the sort an artist might use for jibbling paints) are quite daylighty, but you only notice if you compare them to actual daylight (which you tend not to do, because you don't need the lights on), or are white-balancing cameras.  Humans are brilliant at deluding themselves that any given colour is 'white', and they all look wrong out of context.

Cheap (or highly power efficient) 6500K cold white LED/fluorescents manage the blueness of daylight, without the colour rendering, and I agree that they can be distinctly odd.  I quite like that sort of light for things like cleaning and cooking, and it seems to work well enough for streetlighting and vehicle lights, but I prefer something warmer for general illumination.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 24 September, 2018, 02:20:36 pm
I think people, even rich ones, only change the outside lighting when the bulb dies. The security lights at the back of my house are still halogen but they're mostly off. I did replace the lights on the front of the house as they're on from dusk till about 1am (and in the mornings during winter). It's pitch black once the streetlight goes off at midnight.

Yeahbut these ones were all lit up at 2am, not on PIRs or anything.

Dr Biggles isn't big on turning lights off either, other than when going out or at bed time.  I expect he's got a bulk box of mains-voltage halogens he bought in 1994 or something, though, and the CFLs represent the times he jumped in the car and went to B&Q rather than rummaging in the garage.


Quote
In other news, I'm a mushy ambient light sort of person. Spare me the harsh, angry photons.

I like to have the option.  Subdued light for general living, but I want something obnoxiously bright I can turn on for cleaning, searching for pingfuckits, or doing something fiddly.  So either dimmers, or a really bright ceiling lamp that's normally ignored in favour of smaller lamps.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: ian on 24 September, 2018, 02:48:10 pm
Well, the lights on the front of our house are on all the time (which is why they now have LED bulbs) – our next door neighbour is the same, though I suspect she may still be on the tungsten). I'd imagine private estates probably have poor lighting. Ours are on so people can see the house name and preferably not crash into the fence. We do have one streetlight but we have several tall trees which block out the light. The original lights were PIR activated but we had that removed in favour of a timer. The lights around the side and back are all PIR activated, apart from the ones strung between the balcony and garage which have an on-off switch. They exist for BBQs, though I'm not sure why we bothered, as soon as I think of hosting a BBQ, the weather forecast occludes.

Hmm, yes, we have a lot of lights.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 24 September, 2018, 04:01:29 pm
If they're on a timer, why are they on all the time? My guess is the BEARS have eaten the clock.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: ian on 24 September, 2018, 04:40:51 pm
Sorry, I meant they were always on when it's dark. There's a light/dark sensor and a timer. I use the timer (which has the most inaccurate clock ever). Obviously, the main reason for the lights is so that we can see the bears. They hate it when you walk into them.

I did once almost trip over a badger. But that was down the road.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Jaded on 24 September, 2018, 04:46:05 pm
Our outside lamp is twenty years old. I’ve only changed it once and when I did that I put it on a proximity sensor. It is incandescent.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: PaulF on 24 September, 2018, 04:49:35 pm
Our outside lamp is twenty years old. I’ve only changed it once and when I did that I put it on a proximity sensor. It is incandescent.

Well I’d be pretty miffed if you only gave me any attention once every 20 years ;D
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 24 September, 2018, 05:17:59 pm
I reckon about half the working incandescent bulbs here have not been changed since I moved here in 1999. Many get little use. Some just LAST.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 24 September, 2018, 09:23:05 pm
Sorry, I meant they were always on when it's dark. There's a light/dark sensor and a timer. I use the timer (which has the most inaccurate clock ever). Obviously, the main reason for the lights is so that we can see the bears. They hate it when you walk into them.

I did once almost trip over a badger. But that was down the road.
The bears are tangoing on the camping stool. Dancing in the dark, probably.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Jaded on 24 September, 2018, 10:49:01 pm
Our outside lamp is twenty years old. I’ve only changed it once and when I did that I put it on a proximity sensor. It is incandescent.

Well I’d be pretty miffed if you only gave me any attention once every 20 years ;D
  ;D
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Jaded on 24 September, 2018, 10:50:00 pm
Sorry, I meant they were always on when it's dark. There's a light/dark sensor and a timer. I use the timer (which has the most inaccurate clock ever). Obviously, the main reason for the lights is so that we can see the bears. They hate it when you walk into them.

I did once almost trip over a badger. But that was down the road.
The bears are tangoing on the camping stool. Dancing in the dark, probably.

Dancing in poo is never fun.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: ian on 25 September, 2018, 09:29:01 am
That's the problem with dancing in the dark. Especially if you're a bear. In the woods.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: pcolbeck on 25 September, 2018, 03:18:40 pm
I reckon about half the working incandescent bulbs here have not been changed since I moved here in 1999. Many get little use. Some just LAST.

This. I think there is a form of natural selection that works with incandescents. You start of with a load of random ones but gradually all the short lived ones blow and get replaced and you end up with only good ones that will last for ages.
Duff fittings or being switched on and off all the time mitigate against any kind of long life for them though. Office use where they are switched on once a day or sometimes left on all the time is perfect for maxing out the life of a good incandescent bulb.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 25 September, 2018, 03:27:58 pm
I reckon about half the working incandescent bulbs here have not been changed since I moved here in 1999. Many get little use. Some just LAST.

This. I think there is a form of natural selection that works with incandescents. You start of with a load of random ones but gradually all the short lived ones blow and get replaced and you end up with only good ones that will last for ages.
Duff fittings or being switched on and off all the time mitigate against any kind of long life for them though. Office use where they are switched on once a day or sometimes left on all the time is perfect for maxing out the life of a good incandescent bulb.

Most of mine will have been left in situ by the previous occupants.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: ian on 25 September, 2018, 05:04:10 pm
That as well, the two big halogen security lights are the originals we inherited. We did remove the front lights (also halogens) and added the security lights down the side of the house. But those two weren't broken so we left. I'd probably change them if they were on more, but they come on for 10 seconds or so at a burst and even then you have to stand and wave frantically for their attention. Or be a bear or one of the yeti that lives at the top of the garden.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 25 September, 2018, 05:58:22 pm
This. I think there is a form of natural selection that works with incandescents. You start of with a load of random ones but gradually all the short lived ones blow and get replaced and you end up with only good ones that will last for ages.
Duff fittings or being switched on and off all the time mitigate against any kind of long life for them though. Office use where they are switched on once a day or sometimes left on all the time is perfect for maxing out the life of a good incandescent bulb.

Back in the good old days, the effect of turning on and off on lightbulb longevity was the helmet debate[1] of the stagecraft newsgroups.  It goes something like this:

Lightbulbs usually fail when you turn them on...
Therefore turning lightbulbs on is bad for them (inrush current, thermal cycling, etc)...
Therefore they'll last longer if left on continuously, rather than when cycled on and off.

The counter argument is that, manufacturing defects aside, eventual failure is due to the evaporation of material from the filament, which is a function of run time.

Usual digressions include:
The use of pre-heat (commonly theatrical dimmers set to 0% will light the filament to a dull red glow, in order to improve their response time).
Halogen cycle.
Anecdotes involving traffic lights.
Anything from Big Clive under the pesudonym 'Davie Dimmers'.

At the time, I predicted that filament lamps would be thoroughly obsolete before we saw an end to these arguments.  I failed to anticipate the withering of usenet due to social media.


[1] Technically, the ability (or otherwise) to stimulate fluorescence using a tungsten source with a #181 (Congo Blue) gel is the more direct equivalent of the helmet debate, but let's pretend it's analogous to the hi-vis debate for general neatness :)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 25 September, 2018, 09:00:17 pm
But will the lightbulb as visual sign of a bright idea ever be replaced by the LED? Or maybe by something else? My feeling is that, just as the old floppy disc lives on as the save icon, it won't be replaced, though it might morph into something slightly different as (or if) physical lightbulb shapes fade from artists' memory.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 25 September, 2018, 09:30:13 pm
I don't think I've ever seen an LED icon[1] outside an electronics CAD package.  The lightbulb as a symbol for a bright idea, and indeed as an icon for 'lights' and 'on' is bound to live at least as long as the telephone receiver or vintage microphone icons.

The 3.5" floppy for 'save' is doing surprisingly well, considering the short window (at around the time that WIMP GUIs went mainstream) during which they were likely to be the medium in use.  I suppose hard disks, like LEDs, lose out as icon-fodder because the average person doesn't really know what they look like.

The bellows camera is still winning, I reckon.


[1] Either the schematic symbol, or a stylised through-hole LED.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Redjeep! on 25 September, 2018, 09:49:54 pm
I don't think I've ever seen an LED icon[1] outside an electronics CAD package.  The lightbulb as a symbol for a bright idea, and indeed as an icon for 'lights' and 'on' is bound to live at least as long as the telephone receiver or vintage microphone icons.

The 3.5" floppy for 'save' is doing surprisingly well, considering the short window (at around the time that WIMP GUIs went mainstream) during which they were likely to be the medium in use.  I suppose hard disks, like LEDs, lose out as icon-fodder because the average person doesn't really know what they look like.

The bellows camera is still winning, I reckon.


[1] Either the schematic symbol, or a stylised through-hole LED.

What about the steam train at a level crossing ? That must be a similar vintage to the bellows camera.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 25 September, 2018, 09:57:22 pm
The bellows camera is one I've only seen on UK road signs. Might be used elsewhere but in Poland for instance (as that's the only other country I can remember having seen camera road signs, and road signs are the only place I can think of having seen a bellows camera icon) it looks like an instamatic, with flash.

As for the steam train, back in 1996 I was living the jet set lifestyle in a backpackers' in Auckland. Watching the news one day with my fellow enterprising, go-getting, industrious youth of today, there was an item about moves to reduce the number of collisions at level crossings. A new road sign had been introduced – the steam train. Koncerned Ciwis were saying how this new sign might be confusing, which of course amused us all. At this a woman from Montana (I can't remember her name, but it wasn't Hannah) joked that the sign might mean "Toy shop ahead!"
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: ian on 25 September, 2018, 10:03:13 pm
You have no idea how adept I am at drawing floppy disks (I know, it's not a disk and it's not floppy, a joke that has less viable currency these days than a Zimbabwean dollar) and good old fashion manila folders. The floppy icon has actually acquired its own meaning separate from what it originally represented. I honestly haven't seen a floppy disk for years. I have a box of them somewhere. I suspect they contain bad poetry written for deprecated girlfriends. I quite possibly have a 5.25-inch disk somewhere that contains the software for running a Hewlett Packard HPLC. I think it might be for an Apple II. I only remember this because it was next to the helium cylinder which was not only critical for degassing acetonitrile but also comedy pizza ordering.

I fear the future will be bereft of visual metaphors so we'd better kept the old ones going.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 25 September, 2018, 10:03:51 pm
Or interpreting vintage in another way, the steam train icon was introduced (in most of the world) at a time when steam trains were still common, as were the light bulb and floppy disk icons for their real life counterparts, but the bellows camera icon was introduced many decades after such a thing had ceased to be the standard form of camera.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 25 September, 2018, 10:07:38 pm
You have no idea how adept I am at drawing floppy disks (I know, it's not a disk and it's not floppy, a joke that has less viable currency these days than a Zimbabwean dollar) and good old fashion manila folders. The floppy icon has actually acquired its own meaning separate from what it originally represented. I honestly haven't seen a floppy disk for years. I have a box of them somewhere. I suspect they contain bad poetry written for deprecated girlfriends. I quite possibly have a 5.25-inch disk somewhere that contains the software for running a Hewlett Packard HPLC. I think it might be for an Apple II. I only remember this because it was next to the helium cylinder which was not only critical for degassing acetonitrile but also comedy pizza ordering.

I fear the future will be bereft of visual metaphors so we'd better kept the old ones going.
(https://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvcGxhY2VfaW1hZ2VzL2EwNDAyNTg5MmNjNWU0MGQ3NF9aaW1iYWJ3ZV8kMTAwX3RyaWxsaW9uXzIwMDlfT2J2ZXJzZS5qcGciXSxbInAiLCJ0aHVtYiIsIngzOTA-Il0sWyJwIiwiY29udmVydCIsIi1xdWFsaXR5IDgxIC1hdXRvLW9yaWVudCJdXQ/Zimbabwe_%24100_trillion_2009_Obverse.jpg)

It's only a matter of time then before those balancing rocks, which apparently are a real geographical feature, become an icon for something like <sentence ends here as this is not POBI>.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: thing1 on 26 September, 2018, 07:52:27 am
I reckon about half the working incandescent bulbs here have not been changed since I moved here in 1999. Many get little use. Some just LAST.

We used to regularly cycle by this fine example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Light
Quote
The Centennial Light is the world's longest-lasting light bulb, burning since 1901.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 02 October, 2018, 12:08:39 am
I've just ordered a bunch of these for a shed/studio https://trade.ledhut.co.uk/spot-lights/downlights/fire-rated-downlight-with-5-watt-gu10-included.html - a fiver for a fire rated downlighter comlete with 50W equivalent GU10 bulb. I figger if the bulb goes nastypop the fire rating may contain it.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: fuaran on 20 October, 2018, 02:26:15 pm
Any suggestions for LED to replace the fluorescent tube in the kitchen? It is currently a 6ft T8, 70W.
How does it work for the starter/ballast? Do you need to remove or rewire these? Or worth replacing all of the fittings?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Diver300 on 20 October, 2018, 03:50:43 pm
Any suggestions for LED to replace the fluorescent tube in the kitchen? It is currently a 6ft T8, 70W.
How does it work for the starter/ballast? Do you need to remove or rewire these? Or worth replacing all of the fittings?
All the LED replacement tubes that I have seen need to have the ballast removed. It's not exactly difficult to do, but the tubes don't seem to be plug and play.

I'm very pleased with the fluorescent-fitting-shaped LED lamps that we have in the garage, but the electrician fitted them and I don't know the make.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: tonyh on 20 October, 2018, 04:05:05 pm
I've just fitted a dozen or so of these (this firm seems to sell only packs of five [EDIT: they do singles but more expensively]):

https://www.simplelighting.co.uk/5ft-22w-t8-led-tube-cool-white-6000k/

They came with a "dummy starter" which replaces the fluo tube starter (by shorting it out); apart from that, just put the LED tube where the fluo one was.
Ballast stays where it is. Must be a magnetic ballast tube for this set-up to be ok.

(No commercial interest. Very small electrical knowledge, so don't rely on any of this!)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: fuaran on 13 December, 2018, 11:46:24 pm
Ikea have LED bulbs for £0.90. Either B22 or E27. Only 400 lumens, 5W, so not the brightest. But could be useful in some rooms. Anyone tried them?
https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/lighting/light-bulbs-accessories/ryet-led-bulb-b22-400-lumen-globe-opal-white-art-40387472/
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rafletcher on 14 December, 2018, 09:57:08 am
Any suggestions for LED to replace the fluorescent tube in the kitchen? It is currently a 6ft T8, 70W.
How does it work for the starter/ballast? Do you need to remove or rewire these? Or worth replacing all of the fittings?
All the LED replacement tubes that I have seen need to have the ballast removed. It's not exactly difficult to do, but the tubes don't seem to be plug and play.

I'm very pleased with the fluorescent-fitting-shaped LED lamps that we have in the garage, but the electrician fitted them and I don't know the make.

Late to this, but I just fitted LED tubes in my shed. All I had to do was remove the starter, and put the tube in. Work really well.

I got mine here

https://led.me.uk/t8-led-replacement-tube-6-1800mm-in-cool-white-6000k
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 21 January, 2020, 06:46:37 pm
Sainsbury's now stock the R63 7w (60w equivalent) E27 fitting, lamps that adorn my kitchen for £5.

I've just fitted one of these to replace yet another from the long-life lamp company.
We will see...

Nearly 2 years on, this lamp has lasted, so far.

The lamp over the sink is flickering like mad. My records state it's a Sainsbury's model, replaced 11/11/17.

The lamp over my head appears to have lasted since before I started recording lamp changes.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Jaded on 14 September, 2020, 02:19:14 pm
We've had 9 LED downlights in our kitchen for 4.5 years and 16 in the remainder of the ground floor for 3.5 years. No failures and they are guaranteed for 10 years, so I'm not expecting failures for a while.

We've had a failure. In the second batch referred to here.

Contacted the company and they will send a replacement when they are in stock.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 18 September, 2020, 04:27:45 pm
I think I may have found the holy grail:

The magic word is "SANSI".  They mostly molish studio lighting and grow-lamps.  They mention both CRI *and* flicker in their specifications.

AvE mentioned them in a recent vijaho as he needed fucking bright flicker-free lighting for filming in slow-motion.  "Bet you can't get those in a 240-vole flavour." thought I.  I was wrong: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B082W4923M

I have one of these in my hand.  It oozes quality.  Well-ventilated switched-mode power supply visible inside the main body of the lamp, with a heavy ceramic heatsink above with the LEDs around the outside.  This means the light shines sideways in all directions rather than predominantly out the end, which is more useful in most fixtures.

Powered it up, and, well, do not look into 4000lm source with your remaining eye.  Got the flicker-o-meter out, and while it's surprisingly difficult to operate an oscilloscope when you're half-blinded, with careful knob-twiddling I was eventually able to trigger on the merest hint of perfectly sinusoidal ripple.  At 70kHz.  You can tell it's well-smoothed by the way it takes a couple of seconds for the LEDs to extinguish after you switch it offf.  Passes the barakta test with flying colours[1].

Sure, it's only available in E27 cap.  Use a dongle.  It's worth it.

Now installed in our kitchen, replacing the 30W CFL with the 10% 100Hz ripple.  I had to filch a shade from another room, because it's so bright.

Job Fucking Done.   :thumbsup:


I've now ordered some of the 2000lm ones.  The 4000lm is strictly for kitchens with landlord-quality lighting design[2] and as a main room light for hoovering and when you want to find dropped ball bearings on a mottled grey carpet.


[1] The flying colours are orange and purple, in the shape of a ring of LEDs, as seared onto your retinas.
[2] Single pendant, so you're always washing up / chopping in your own shadow.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 September, 2020, 04:49:40 pm
Arise, noble sir Kimahad!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Feanor on 18 September, 2020, 05:04:10 pm
https://www.sealite.com/lighthouse-led-lights/
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Diver300 on 18 September, 2020, 05:49:19 pm
[2] Single pendant, so you're always washing up / chopping in your own shadow.[/sub]
Surely you need a dongle and one of these:-
https://uk.sansiled.com/60w-led-garage-ceiling-light.html (https://uk.sansiled.com/60w-led-garage-ceiling-light.html)

They aren't even expensive. I paid about that for an LED garage light in the shape of a fluorescent fitting.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 21 September, 2020, 08:18:03 pm
I think I may have found the holy grail

SANSI update:  I now have some of the 2000lm 18W version.  This one has a more conventional flat aluminium PCB piece of ceramic with the LEDs mounted to it, for a less impressive 180 degree field of illumination (of course that might work better in some fixtures).  Similar well-cooled PSU design.  Colour temperature and colour rendering seem similar.  I measured ripple at 60kHz this time, so it's also barakta-approved.

I await the delivery of some BC22 to E27 adaptors...
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 26 September, 2020, 05:01:38 pm
Sainsbury's now stock the R63 7w (60w equivalent) E27 fitting, lamps that adorn my kitchen for £5.

I've just fitted one of these to replace yet another from the long-life lamp company.
We will see...

Nearly 2 years on, this lamp has lasted, so far.

The lamp over the sink is flickering like mad. My records state it's a Sainsbury's model, replaced 11/11/17.

The lamp over my head appears to have lasted since before I started recording lamp changes.

The lamp over the kitchen sink, replaced in January, has failed again after 8 months, including all six of the lightest months of the year. That would have been less than 6000 hours had the light been switched on all the time so it's had maybe 1500-2000 hours.

Long Life Lamp Company my arse!
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 04 October, 2020, 01:28:01 pm
I think I may have found the holy grail

SANSI update:  I now have some of the 2000lm 18W version.  This one has a more conventional flat aluminium PCB piece of ceramic with the LEDs mounted to it, for a less impressive 180 degree field of illumination (of course that might work better in some fixtures).  Similar well-cooled PSU design.  Colour temperature and colour rendering seem similar.  I measured ripple at 60kHz this time, so it's also barakta-approved.

I await the delivery of some BC22 to E27 adaptors...

And now a couple of the 3000lm 22W.  These have the 270 degrees ring of LEDs like the 4000lm version.  Ripple at 83kHz, so again no flicker.

In summary then:
18W 2000lm 3000K (and presumably all the lower power versions):  Bright, directional light, best for 'spot' type fittings, or above a stairwell or something where it doesn't matter that the ceiling remains gloomy.  Pleasant halogen-ish colour temperature.

22W 3000lm 3000K: Very good omnidirectional spread, though not quite as isotropic as a tungsten lamp.  Works well in the now legendary spherical paper lampshade to provide a bright central ceiling light.

27W 4000lm 3000K: As above but brighter.  Overkill for most applications, but works well for a kitchen or bike-fettling room.

I believe there's also a dimmable version of the 4000lm one.  That would be a good choice if you have a dimmer.  I haven't tested one so can't vouch for whether it flickers.

They also come in 5000K daylight flavour.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/stores/page/F9B5CA5F-F563-485F-9C26-5BD5A55195CA
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 30 October, 2020, 05:10:39 pm
I think I may have found the holy grail

SANSI update:  I now have some of the 2000lm 18W version.  This one has a more conventional flat aluminium PCB piece of ceramic with the LEDs mounted to it, for a less impressive 180 degree field of illumination (of course that might work better in some fixtures).  Similar well-cooled PSU design.  Colour temperature and colour rendering seem similar.  I measured ripple at 60kHz this time, so it's also barakta-approved.

I await the delivery of some BC22 to E27 adaptors...

And now a couple of the 3000lm 22W.  These have the 270 degrees ring of LEDs like the 4000lm version.  Ripple at 83kHz, so again no flicker.

In summary then:
18W 2000lm 3000K (and presumably all the lower power versions):  Bright, directional light, best for 'spot' type fittings, or above a stairwell or something where it doesn't matter that the ceiling remains gloomy.  Pleasant halogen-ish colour temperature.

22W 3000lm 3000K: Very good omnidirectional spread, though not quite as isotropic as a tungsten lamp.  Works well in the now legendary spherical paper lampshade to provide a bright central ceiling light.

27W 4000lm 3000K: As above but brighter.  Overkill for most applications, but works well for a kitchen or bike-fettling room.

I believe there's also a dimmable version of the 4000lm one.  That would be a good choice if you have a dimmer.  I haven't tested one so can't vouch for whether it flickers.

They also come in 5000K daylight flavour.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/stores/page/F9B5CA5F-F563-485F-9C26-5BD5A55195CA

It will come as no surprise for everyone to hear She Knows What She Is Talking About.

AREN'T they good?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: BrianI on 30 October, 2020, 05:18:59 pm
I think I may have found the holy grail

SANSI update:  I now have some of the 2000lm 18W version.  This one has a more conventional flat aluminium PCB piece of ceramic with the LEDs mounted to it, for a less impressive 180 degree field of illumination (of course that might work better in some fixtures).  Similar well-cooled PSU design.  Colour temperature and colour rendering seem similar.  I measured ripple at 60kHz this time, so it's also barakta-approved.

I await the delivery of some BC22 to E27 adaptors...

Careful with the BC22 to E27 Adaptors...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ2EKCUp7-E
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 30 October, 2020, 06:03:54 pm
Sainsbury's have listed the R63s I use in the kitchen for at least 5 consecutive weeks.
They have always been unavailable.
At the moment, I only want them as spares...
They didn't list them for a few weeks but listed them again yesterday, so I ordered some.
Like the three bird roast (vide infra) they were unavailable again...

ETA Now (20/11) unavailable. Website suggest R80 instead of R63. (Numbers indicate lamp diameter in millimetres.)
I think I'll ignore their kind suggestion...
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 30 October, 2020, 08:12:28 pm
Careful with the BC22 to E27 Adaptors...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ2EKCUp7-E

Ugh, 7 minutes of video to explain what can be written in a single sentence.  But yes, it's a valid point.

Personally I have a healthy distrust of both types of lamp holder.  Getting a finger on the live terminal of a BC22 is entirely possible when groping around in the dark (DAHIKT), but the Edison is riskier if you don't preserve correct polarity (eg. with these adaptors or when the lamp is plugged in via an unpolarised plug like they do in ABROAD, where the FOREIGNS come from).

If you're going to use one, mate the lamp with the adaptor first (thereby covering up the metal part of the Edison), and then use the bayonet part to install it.  Which you'd probably do anyway, because that's the less fiddly way round.

And like those BS1363 socket covers, don't leave them lying around where children could hurt themselves with them.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: aidan.f on 30 October, 2020, 09:06:03 pm
 BC lamp connectors including a self disconnect when the lamp is removed or interlocked switch are now  a 'thing'
For the unitiated re. Socket covers..
http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/index.html
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 30 October, 2020, 09:16:09 pm
but the Edison is riskier if you don't preserve correct polarity
My late FiL was an electrician. Many many years ago something I've forgotten coincided with him visiting and he ended up poking around in our light switch. He rarely got angry but this was one occasion, when he discovered the switch had been wired into the neutral leaving the bulb and holder always live. "Wired by plumbers" was his frequent verdict.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: fuaran on 30 October, 2020, 09:31:41 pm
Seems some of those ES adapters have a plastic screw thread, and just contacts on the bottom. So the bulb won't touch the live bits until it is screwed all of the way in.
eg the IKEA version. Photos here. https://goughlui.com/2015/07/26/diy-adapting-out-of-tricky-light-bulb-situations/
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Tim Hall on 13 November, 2020, 03:31:03 pm
I'm looking at replacing the 1500mm T8 58W fluorescent in the kitchen with a Philips LED replacement.

New 58W fluorescents put out 5400lm 4000K colour temperature . The LED replacement only manages 2000lm 4000K colour temperature.

Is this difference going to be an issue? I assume the fluorescent emits light 360 degrees around the tube whilst the LED only shines "downwards". Is that the cause for the discrepancy in the output?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Jurek on 13 November, 2020, 03:33:28 pm
I'm looking at replacing the 1500mm T8 58W fluorescent in the kitchen with a Philips LED replacement.

New 58W fluorescents put out 5400lm 4000K colour temperature . The LED replacement only manages 2000lm 4000K colour temperature.

Is this difference going to be an issue? I assume the fluorescent emits light 360 degrees around the tube whilst the LED only shines "downwards". Is that the cause for the discrepancy in the output?
I've a number (4) of Flouros replaced by the LED variety. They don't appear to be directional.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: aidan.f on 13 November, 2020, 07:12:03 pm
At 6000 lumens for £24 I don't think you can beat the VTAC VT8-50 Very neat fitting as well. I have four of the 50's in my garage / workshop.
https://cpc.farnell.com/v-tac/668-vt-8-50/grill-fitting-50w-led-150cm-4000k/dp/LA07401 (https://cpc.farnell.com/v-tac/668-vt-8-50/grill-fitting-50w-led-150cm-4000k/dp/LA07401)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Tim Hall on 13 November, 2020, 08:38:09 pm
I'm looking at replacing the 1500mm T8 58W fluorescent in the kitchen with a Philips LED replacement.

New 58W fluorescents put out 5400lm 4000K colour temperature . The LED replacement only manages 2000lm 4000K colour temperature.

Is this difference going to be an issue? I assume the fluorescent emits light 360 degrees around the tube whilst the LED only shines "downwards". Is that the cause for the discrepancy in the output?
I've a number (4) of Flouros replaced by the LED variety. They don't appear to be directional.
Are yours straight tube for tube swaps? What model? What's the light level like? The blurb on Screwfix suggested the Philips LED "tube" was directional, with a line to indicate the right orientation.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Jurek on 14 November, 2020, 09:38:30 am
I'm looking at replacing the 1500mm T8 58W fluorescent in the kitchen with a Philips LED replacement.

New 58W fluorescents put out 5400lm 4000K colour temperature . The LED replacement only manages 2000lm 4000K colour temperature.

Is this difference going to be an issue? I assume the fluorescent emits light 360 degrees around the tube whilst the LED only shines "downwards". Is that the cause for the discrepancy in the output?
I've a number (4) of Flouros replaced by the LED variety. They don't appear to be directional.
Are yours straight tube for tube swaps? What model? What's the light level like? The blurb on Screwfix suggested the Philips LED "tube" was directional, with a line to indicate the right orientation.
No. Not tube for tube swaps. They're actually these:
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LLM6WA.html
Deployed under the desk where the electric spaghetti lives, and in the wardrobe.I now realise that the fact that they come with a diffuser, disguises whether or not they are directional.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Tim Hall on 16 November, 2020, 09:23:31 pm
Reporting back. In the end I got a Fusion 2400lm 4000K 1500mm LED tube from CEF. This one.

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/4373970-23w-5ft-led-tube-glass-cool-white (https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/4373970-23w-5ft-led-tube-glass-cool-white)

Came complete with LED starter (as they all seem to do). Straight swap, turned it on and it worked.
It is directional (300 degree output, rather than 360 degree with  a black line on the "dark" side, so it gets inserted properly.

Plenty enough light for my (approx) 3m x 2m kitchen. 
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 16 November, 2020, 10:03:40 pm
"The bathroom light's flickering." said the world's crappest superhero.  "Check the bedroom", said I, reaching for the multimeter.

224V, that's a little bit low.

Flicker-o-meter confirms ripple on both bedroom and bathroom lamps.  Not the lamp then.

Check the graph, and the voltage had briefly dropped out of spec a few minutes previously.  Marvellous.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: barakta on 16 November, 2020, 10:18:37 pm
It is indeed the world's crappest superpower.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 16 November, 2020, 10:19:39 pm
Note for next time: Turn one of the Sansis on and see if they're stable.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: aidan.f on 17 November, 2020, 03:49:24 am
Kim,  So the lamp control circuitry had dropped out of regulation?  I suppose it's to be expected <216 Volts. If it was physically possible I could lend you a Variac for test purposes. (tucked under a bench for years on the off-chance it would come in useful one day).
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 17 November, 2020, 11:39:19 am
Kim,  So the lamp control circuitry had dropped out of regulation?  I suppose it's to be expected <216 Volts. If it was physically possible I could lend you a Variac for test purposes. (tucked under a bench for years on the off-chance it would come in useful one day).

Yep.  That was what the initial symptom of the great mains voltage debacle of 2019, in which various men in orange from Western Power Distribution sucked through their teeth at the state of Silly Oak's distribution network (too many HMO conversions, not enough substation capacity), ultimately culminating in them digging up the pavement and switching us to a different phase.

I think we decided that those particular lamps (the Wilko filament ones that don't normally flicker) start to ripple below about 225V (I can't see the flicker - that's barakta's superpower - but do see a drop in brightness as it starts to drop out.  Since then I've built more flicker-free dimmable lighting that uses a universal switching power supply, so the mains voltage can do what it likes.

I expect the Sansi lamps are fairly tolerant, as they evidently use a proper switching supply with a transformer and nice big electrolytics, rather the one of those clever little LED lighting regulator chips.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 19 November, 2020, 08:50:00 pm
Note for next time: Turn one of the Sansis on and see if they're stable.

Voltage dropped (though to about 220V, not actually below spec) again this evening.  No flicker that barakta could perceive on the 18W or 22W Sansi, and we couldn't pick anything up on the flicker-o-meter either.  With careful use of attenuation I was eventually able to detect the switching ripple of the 22W one using my somewhat less bandwidth-impaired oscilloscope (which happens to be in the same room), at about 67kHz.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 22 November, 2020, 10:04:55 pm
Been looking out for an option to replace 60W incandescent candle bulb, finally took a punt on these https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0822B5B3G and very impressed. Not quite the quality of the Sansi but build quality appears ok, the light quality appears excellent, along with the luminescence (>60W candle, more like 75-80)

I've not yet found a similar dimmable, the one from the same manufacturer is a bit pricey https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07JR3SQF4/
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: aidan.f on 10 December, 2020, 07:11:56 pm
I have bought eight Aurora EN-PLPC18/40 downlighters for a hobbies room - These are sold as non-dimmable but product docs mention a dimmable driver that I cannot find. Supplied driver is marked 48-60 Volts and inside is a regulated DC supply with output of 58 Volts on load (300 mA). Connecting a bench supply light goes from dim, no flicker at 48 Volts to full brightness at 58 Volts. Would be convenient to feed all eight lights from one 3 Amp 48-60 Volt variable DC PSU  - and yes, I know how to, just is there a ready-made solution?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: aidan.f on 10 December, 2020, 07:35:53 pm
Just found the answer to my own question  48-60 Volts DC seems to be a standard for 18 Watt downlights. Eight seperate drivers will though cost as much as the lights :-(
https://cpc.farnell.com/v-tac/18w-8075/dimmable-driver-for-led-panel/dp/LA08364 (https://cpc.farnell.com/v-tac/18w-8075/dimmable-driver-for-led-panel/dp/LA08364)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 14 December, 2020, 06:07:01 pm
Sainsbury's have actually supplied the R63s they have intermittently listed but not delivered for the last three months...
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 04 January, 2021, 05:39:16 pm
So what are people recommending for bulbs these days? Nothing weird required, just candle bulb type with SES fitting for desk/table lamp porpoises..
I hve previously bought Phillips a long time ago which were expensive and didn't last long. Currently I have Lumilife which don't last very long (or go a bit weedy as if battery power is getting low!).
Do I just need to suck up the type of cost of the Sansi ones for something decent?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 04 January, 2021, 10:29:24 pm
Unfortunately Sansi don't make anything in the smaller sizes (SES, GU10 sort of thing).  I suspect it's not easy to fit a proper power supply circuit and a sufficiency of heat-sinking in the space available.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: grams on 04 January, 2021, 10:43:45 pm
I hve previously bought Phillips a long time ago which were expensive and didn't last long. Currently I have Lumilife which don't last very long (or go a bit weedy as if battery power is getting low!).

LEDs go dim when they overheat. I suspect your fitting is what's killing your bulbs.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Canardly on 04 January, 2021, 10:55:11 pm
LAP led  lamps from Screwfix seem OK, Dial from B and Q, (Probably the same thing) and Energizer. No issues as far as I know. Avoid Eveready due to short life and failure to work in some touch operated fittings. Phillips are usually very reliable ime.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 05 January, 2021, 04:06:18 pm
Unfortunately Sansi don't make anything in the smaller sizes (SES, GU10 sort of thing).  I suspect it's not easy to fit a proper power supply circuit and a sufficiency of heat-sinking in the space available.
According to Amazon they do...  https://www.amazon.co.uk/SANSI-E14-Led-Candle-Bulbs/dp/B07T483YCT
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 05 January, 2021, 04:53:12 pm
I've been quite happy with these https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0822B5B3G for quality of light and brightness

Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 05 January, 2021, 05:48:08 pm
Unfortunately Sansi don't make anything in the smaller sizes (SES, GU10 sort of thing).  I suspect it's not easy to fit a proper power supply circuit and a sufficiency of heat-sinking in the space available.
According to Amazon they do...  https://www.amazon.co.uk/SANSI-E14-Led-Candle-Bulbs/dp/B07T483YCT

I hadn't noticed those before.

Out of stock, thobut, and not listed on https://eu.sansiled.com/led-light-bulb.html
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 05 January, 2021, 06:33:02 pm
I've been quite happy with these https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0822B5B3G for quality of light and brightness


Also not in stock..
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 05 January, 2021, 06:58:54 pm
Based on a look at my brother's Which subscription I'm going to give Integral a try, but not from Amazon where they're 3 times the price.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 05 January, 2021, 08:18:48 pm
Unfortunately Sansi don't make anything in the smaller sizes (SES, GU10 sort of thing).  I suspect it's not easy to fit a proper power supply circuit and a sufficiency of heat-sinking in the space available.
According to Amazon they do...  https://www.amazon.co.uk/SANSI-E14-Led-Candle-Bulbs/dp/B07T483YCT

I hadn't noticed those before.

Out of stock, thobut, and not listed on https://eu.sansiled.com/led-light-bulb.html

Whistles innocently.  :-[  ;D

They only had 1 x 3
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: ian on 05 January, 2021, 09:18:21 pm
I just buy the generic bulbs from whatever online LED bulb supplier pops up. I can't remember which since I think, in the last five years, precisely one of the LED constellation has popped its little electrical clogs*. Minus those in the bathroom, which was fitted by the sparky and they all went flickerywonk. That's when we discovered that they were (or the fittings) glued into the ceiling and changing them required grown-ups who weren't me to get them out, refit them, and re-paint the bloody ceiling.

*and where do LED bulbs go after they die. It might be Heaven. It might be Hell. It doesn't seem our local council wants to express an opinion on their fate, so I put it outside in the bag as an electrical item. I swear half the time they fling them in the back of the lorry anyway.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 05 January, 2021, 10:01:29 pm
"interestingly" (and some would say, obviously), not all lumens are the same.

Our upstairs bathroom has languished in GU10 halogen-y-ness as it needed the conjunction of (a) LED dimmer (b) decent dimmable LED to happen in reasonable historical proximity. The recent dimmer change (forced, at an odd time) was to a bit of a dodgy unit which was a turn-to-off rather than push-to-off. The replacement I'd bought from Screwfix, supposedly suited to both LED and halogen turned out to be negatively optimal for halogen. Scrabbling around in my stash, I found the 4 x Phillips Master that I'd bought to replace the halogens and forgotten about. Switched over, and all is not only well, but VERY bright, despite them being listed as "only" 4.9W/365 lumen - they outperform others supposedly 550 Lumen by a comfortable margin, and the higher CRI is evident.

This could get expensive. The Master ExpertColour is higher still CRI (97), and they are 100% glass cased - none of my GU10 fittings are fire rated.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: ian on 06 January, 2021, 09:30:09 am
I think the general logic is to buy more than you need, you will never ever find the same bulb again, or anything with the same brightness or colour, no matter what it says on the label.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 06 January, 2021, 12:49:30 pm
One thing I have noticed is that many of my older bulbs, although being the right equivalent number of Watts, are distinctly lower in the Lumens department than those I've found online this week.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 06 January, 2021, 01:05:29 pm
Plz to be seeing my post up there ^^- the Phillips I just put in have "2017" on the box, so not current generation. I wouldn't trust any of the wattage equivalences, and few of the lumen outputs quoted.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 08 January, 2021, 07:09:39 pm
Unfortunately Sansi don't make anything in the smaller sizes (SES, GU10 sort of thing).  I suspect it's not easy to fit a proper power supply circuit and a sufficiency of heat-sinking in the space available.
According to Amazon they do...  https://www.amazon.co.uk/SANSI-E14-Led-Candle-Bulbs/dp/B07T483YCT

Well. here's a turn up for the books. They don't fit. Or, to be exact, the E14 thread is fractionally too short for my holders - to be more exact, for 2 out of 3 of the holders. Quality is as expected, the luminaire surface is horizontal, which would have been exactly what I wanted. So, they are going back. Happy to sell them on to anyone, that would have to be associated with a money back return through to Amazon if it didn't work.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 08 January, 2021, 08:11:10 pm
That's one reason for not buying brand XYZZY type stuff from Amazon....
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 08 January, 2021, 09:08:04 pm
The build quality of the Sansi is there, though.....
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 16 February, 2021, 09:01:22 pm
Just checked the council's website again and it turns out they don't take light bulbs in the recycling. I thought they counted as WEE, which – at least officially – will be collected. But no, light bulbs are in the list of things that have to be put in the wheelie bin. Mind you it does literally say 'light bulbs' which kind of implies they haven't grasped the LED era...
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 16 February, 2021, 09:42:46 pm
Tungsten filament bulbs are supposed to go in the landfill wheelie bin here but LEDs are considered WEEE and bloody awkward.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 16 February, 2021, 10:04:37 pm
At least they're telling you which they mean! Do they say anything about CFLs too? (See also: paper, card and cardboard.)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 16 February, 2021, 10:12:48 pm
I'll check.
I know paper & card go into recycling, but not wrapping paper.

ETA
The links on the right side of this page land you back on the same page, which is MOST helpful.
https://www.brent.gov.uk/services-for-residents/recycling-and-waste/household-recycling/from-a-house-or-converted-flat/blue-top-recycling-bin/# (https://www.brent.gov.uk/services-for-residents/recycling-and-waste/household-recycling/from-a-house-or-converted-flat/blue-top-recycling-bin/#)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 16 February, 2021, 10:40:48 pm
Just for the ignorant ones here (that'll be me), what is WEE and WEEE?

It's one of those pesky EU directives that's crippling honest BRITISH businesses by making them responsible for the hazardous waste they produce: https://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/weee/index_en.htm
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 16 February, 2021, 10:49:05 pm
We buy most of our potential WEEE online.
We're car-free.
Brent's Recycling Centre (aka dump) is 6 miles away.
Taking WEEE to a shop that hasn't supplied it seems unfair and they are probably locked down right now anyway.
Asking D to cycle 6 miles with a bulb or two isn't going to happen.
I can get Brent to collect BIG electrical/electronic items.
But small stuff is a problem.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 17 February, 2021, 12:05:47 am
Yeah, ours tends to kick around the house until such a time as I'm going to the tip for something more substantial.  Even accounting for generating a lot more WEEE than the average household (we have a reputation for being able to repair and/or find a home for unwanted electrickery), its a pain.

Really small stuff (component-level parts, bits of wire, that sort of thing) tends to find its way into the household waste, because I'm not going to start going through bench-sweepings and hoover bags to separate LED legs and solder blobs from carpet fluff and bits of sticky tape.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Feanor on 23 November, 2021, 05:45:03 pm
Following on from another thread where a 50w MR16 Halogen downlighter nearly set my house on fire, I'm looking to replace them with LEDs.
The existing fittings in various rooms are set into holes in the plasterboard, some are 65mm and some are 70mm holes.

What's the general approach to this these days?

1) Retain the existing fittings, and use like-for-like 12v LED lamps.  This might require new transformers / SMPSUs, if the existing ones have a minimum load which the 5w LEDs don't reach.

2) Retain the existing fittings, and use 240v MR16 lamps, ditching the transformers / SMPSUs.

3) Replace the entire fitting with a dedicated LED unit.

My gut reaction is (1), for the following reasons:

- Having the 240v - 12v PSU external means it can have better thermal management than trying to cram it into the tiny space in the lamp itself, leaving only the 12v LED driver in the lamp;

- I'm not sure the existing fittings / connectors are rated for 240v. But then again they were marginal for the current for 50w @ 12v!  I think I'd prefer to run them at 12 v and the 500mA or so a 5w LED will take.

- I don't want to have to re-drill / patch plasterboard for new fittings which will no doubt be different diameters to my existing mix of 65 / 70 mm 'oles.

So general advice?
And any particular brand of 12v 50w equiv LEDs you'd recommend?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: sojournermike on 23 November, 2021, 06:00:54 pm
Following on from another thread where a 50w MR16 Halogen downlighter nearly set my house on fire, I'm looking to replace them with LEDs.
The existing fittings in various rooms are set into holes in the plasterboard, some are 65mm and some are 70mm holes.

What's the general approach to this these days?

1) Retain the existing fittings, and use like-for-like 12v LED lamps.  This might require new transformers / SMPSUs, if the existing ones have a minimum load which the 5w LEDs don't reach.

2) Retain the existing fittings, and use 240v MR16 lamps, ditching the transformers / SMPSUs.

3) Replace the entire fitting with a dedicated LED unit.

My gut reaction is (1), for the following reasons:

- Having the 240v - 12v PSU external means it can have better thermal management than trying to cram it into the tiny space in the lamp itself, leaving only the 12v LED driver in the lamp;

- I'm not sure the existing fittings / connectors are rated for 240v. But then again they were marginal for the current for 50w @ 12v!  I think I'd prefer to run them at 12 v and the 500mA or so a 5w LED will take.

- I don't want to have to re-drill / patch plasterboard for new fittings which will no doubt be different diameters to my existing mix of 65 / 70 mm 'oles.

So general advice?
And any particular brand of 12v 50w equiv LEDs you'd recommend?

I've just bought and installed half a dozen dedicated LED downlighters from B&Q - brand Luceco £100 for 6. They are fire rated for insulation laid over the top, IP66, dimmable and change colour (warm, neutral, cold white) byt switching. CRI is >85 and they are far better in terms of light output and quality than any of the MR16 or GU10 lamps that I have tried. They need a 75mm cutout, but I think it's worth an hour with a rasp and a bit of dust for the quality if light. Obviously you'll get rid of your transformers too.

These are in my home office (shed) where quality of light is really impoirtant as I spend far too long in there.

Mike
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 23 November, 2021, 06:04:33 pm
Received wisdom seems to be that if you fit LED fixtures, they'll fail in a couple of years and you'll need to replace them (inevitably with something requiring a different size hole, or at least visibly non-matching).  If you fit GU10 or similar fixtures, they'll be flickery shit from the outset, but at least you can change the lamp when it fails.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Feanor on 23 November, 2021, 06:23:52 pm
But should the existing fixture used with a proper LED PSU not eliminate the flicker?
What would cause the flicker in this scenario that a dedicated LED fixture would not?

Is it that the dedicated fixtures have both the driver and LEDS in a single unit, and drive the LEDs directly with a constant current, but MR16 drop-in replacements take 12v constant voltage, and then have nasty 12v - constant current gubbins in each lamp?

Googling it, I see some PSUs which are 12v 6w specifically for MR16 LEDs.
I'm not sure what they do differently to 12v PSUs used for halogens ( except continue to work at low loads ).
Different chopper frequency?

I'll need to suck it and see, I think.

Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: sojournermike on 23 November, 2021, 06:35:35 pm
I'm sure it's about the quality of the driver and the led - driver for nice non-flickery light (not forgetting that some here see/perceive flicker at very high frequency, so smooth DC is better than a lot of switch mode stuff) and led for light quality/CRI. I just haven't found a particularly nice package yet, although I do have one pair of MR16s that don't annoy me as much as the rest.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: robgul on 23 November, 2021, 07:52:34 pm
I bought these for our kitchen on the recommendation of my electrician nephew - not much money - from ledbulbs.co.uk 

Aurora Enlite Fixed Fire Rated IP20 Non-Integrated Downlight Satin Nickel- EN-FD101SN

Kosnic 4.5W LED GU10 PAR16 Very Warm White - KTEC4.5PWR/GU10-S27

I took out the halogens, each had its own transformer, and simply connected the LED units to the 240v supply at each lamp - and the holes in the ceiling were the same size  :thumbsup:    Even better was that I sold all the halogens on Gumtree for about 50% of the LED cost ;D

While I was at it I changed lots of 240v halogens in wall lights around the house for LED bulbs - just a straight replacement in the light fitting.  We did get a few trial bulbs to check the light colour/brightness etc

Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: rafletcher on 23 November, 2021, 08:05:00 pm
Received wisdom seems to be that if you fit LED fixtures, they'll fail in a couple of years and you'll need to replace them (inevitably with something requiring a different size hole, or at least visibly non-matching).  If you fit GU10 or similar fixtures, they'll be flickery shit from the outset, but at least you can change the lamp when it fails.

I guess it depends on your (in)tolerance to flicker. We’ve had mains GU10 LED replacement bulbs for several years in both kitchen and bathroom. We don’t notice any flicker, and the bulbs have been more reliable than halogen ones.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: grams on 23 November, 2021, 08:09:59 pm
240V bulbs mean fewer parts and guaranteed to work rather than hoping your LEDs match the transformer.

The Ikea ones in waterproof, fireproof fitting (i.e no airflow above or below) in my bathroom have been going for years and I have a bad habit of leaving them on all the time.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 23 November, 2021, 09:46:34 pm
Received wisdom seems to be that if you fit LED fixtures, they'll fail in a couple of years and you'll need to replace them (inevitably with something requiring a different size hole, or at least visibly non-matching).  If you fit GU10 or similar fixtures, they'll be flickery shit from the outset, but at least you can change the lamp when it fails.

I guess it depends on your (in)tolerance to flicker. We’ve had mains GU10 LED replacement bulbs for several years in both kitchen and bathroom. We don’t notice any flicker, and the bulbs have been more reliable than halogen ones.

The problem with flicker is that the manufacturers (other than Sansi) don't tell you how much there is.  So you're stuck with buying an assortment of lamps, and either seeing obvious stroboscopic effect; measuring the flicker using flicker-measuring equipment; destructively reverse-engineering the lamp; or installing them and seeing if they give you seizures/migraine/sensory overload/nonspecific headaches/low-level eye-strain.  Redo from start when they manufacture a different batch.

I can see 100Hz flicker in my peripheral vision plainly enough, up to typical microprocessor PWM frequencies if I'm paying attention to a moving object.  But beyond about 1kHz I need test equipment.  It doesn't bother me particularly, but I'm not sure that it's a good idea to read by it, even if you don't see artefacts.

The problem with GU10 lamps (and similar form-factors) is that they don't leave a lot of space for smoothing capacitors...
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Feanor on 23 November, 2021, 10:25:28 pm
Yes, and so back to my original q:

With a 240v GU-whatever LED lamp, all the chopperising, smootherising ( or lack thereof ), constant-currantizing for the LEDs has to happen within the body of the lamp itself. The smootherising of the 240v to chopperised LV is compromised by lack of space.

But with a 12v LED, all the chopperising and smootherising is done in the external psu, with space to do it properly. So what remains to be done in the lamp? only the constant-currentizing for the LEDs, because the psu provides a constant-voltage clean 12v.  Does the constant-currantising involve a further stage of chopperizing and un-smoothing? Or is it a more linear thing? I've never ripped one apart. But my hunch is that there is rather less electronics in a 12v lamp than a 240v one. But I don't know.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 23 November, 2021, 10:43:37 pm
Me neither.  It's a good question...

To the Youtubes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Roc5TLdnw

Dunno how typical that is, but it would appear to be the full shebang, operating at 12V.  Also, bonus cat.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 24 November, 2021, 10:52:54 pm
A couple of weeks after we moved in here I replaced the last of the evil halogen pretending to be incandescent bulb with LED. One of them failed already, that's less than 3 months!
Lumilife is the brand for those interested.
<Grumble>
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 24 November, 2021, 11:58:44 pm
A couple of weeks after we moved in here I replaced the last of the evil halogen pretending to be incandescent bulb with LED. One of them failed already, that's less than 3 months!
Lumilife is the brand for those interested.
<Grumble>

LumiDETH, MOAR like…

(http://legslarry.org.uk/BikeStull/coat_48.png)
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Diver300 on 25 November, 2021, 07:38:18 am
Yes, and so back to my original q:

With a 240v GU-whatever LED lamp, all the chopperising, smootherising ( or lack thereof ), constant-currantizing for the LEDs has to happen within the body of the lamp itself. The smootherising of the 240v to chopperised LV is compromised by lack of space.

But with a 12v LED, all the chopperising and smootherising is done in the external psu, with space to do it properly. So what remains to be done in the lamp? only the constant-currentizing for the LEDs, because the psu provides a constant-voltage clean 12v.  Does the constant-currantising involve a further stage of chopperizing and un-smoothing? Or is it a more linear thing? I've never ripped one apart. But my hunch is that there is rather less electronics in a 12v lamp than a 240v one. But I don't know.
12 V house lighting traditionally runs from conventional transformers that put out 50 Hz sine waves. An LED lamp will have to have a rectifier to allow for that, which will also allow for it to be inserted either way round if the power supply provides dc.

A current control device is needed, and that has to be in the lamp as a transformer will produce a fairly constant voltage, and there may be several lamps in parallel. If a linear current limiter is used, it will get hot, and how hot it gets will depend on the supply voltage. I can see why the lamps will often contain switch-mode regulators.

The switching frequency of a switch-mode regulator is often high enough to either make the flicker imperceptible, or mean that a small and cheap capacitor will virtually eliminate it. High-frequency switching stops there being an audible squeak and means that the inductors needed are smaller.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Feanor on 25 November, 2021, 09:49:58 am
After watching the 12v LED lamp tear-down video Kim posted, and reading up some more, my thinking is currently(!) along these lines:

I noticed that some 'transformers' eg 12v DC 6w units designed to power a single 5w LED make claims to produce lower flicker, and greatly extend the lifespan of the LED lamp. They don't seem to offer up any explanation or substantiation of these claims, however.

But looking at the schematic in the lamp tear-down video, the input stage is a straightforward discrete bridge rectifier, and large electrolytic smoothing designed for 50Hz, when running the lamp from a 12v AC supply.

This cap is probably the principal point of compromise and failure in the design, I'd have thought.
It will likely have a fairly poor ESR rating, and its voltage rating will be close to it's operating envelope I expect.

So with a 12v AC supply, I'd expect the 'DC'-ish supply to the current regulator to be fairly poor in terms of 50Hz ripple, which might account for visible flicker.
It would depend on how well the high frequency current regulator is able to deal with that.
i can imagine there might be potential for beat frequency flicker, too.

Running such a lamp from a 'clean' 12v DC, the electrolytic cap really doesn't have anything to do, so it's compromised spec will be much less of an issue.  I can see how this might extend the lifespan of the lamp, as the cap will likely last longer.  The high frequency current limiter will be getting a clean DC at all times, and so the only flicker I'd expect at this point will be from this high frequency regulator. The video did not put a 'scope on the chopper, so we don't know the frequency.

I've bought some suck-it-and-see parts: a small selection of LED lamps, and a couple of DC-output 'transformers', and a bag of Wago 224-112 connectors and Wago Light enclosures, in case there's going to be a bunch of wiring. I'll test the lamps against the in-situ 50w AC 'transformers', and compare the results against the new DC ones.

Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ham on 25 November, 2021, 09:56:08 am
Following on from another thread where a 50w MR16 Halogen downlighter nearly set my house on fire, I'm looking to replace them with LEDs.
The existing fittings in various rooms are set into holes in the plasterboard, some are 65mm and some are 70mm holes.

What's the general approach to this these days?

1) Retain the existing fittings, and use like-for-like 12v LED lamps.  This might require new transformers / SMPSUs, if the existing ones have a minimum load which the 5w LEDs don't reach.

2) Retain the existing fittings, and use 240v MR16 lamps, ditching the transformers / SMPSUs.

3) Replace the entire fitting with a dedicated LED unit.

My gut reaction is (1), for the following reasons:

- Having the 240v - 12v PSU external means it can have better thermal management than trying to cram it into the tiny space in the lamp itself, leaving only the 12v LED driver in the lamp;

- I'm not sure the existing fittings / connectors are rated for 240v. But then again they were marginal for the current for 50w @ 12v!  I think I'd prefer to run them at 12 v and the 500mA or so a 5w LED will take.

- I don't want to have to re-drill / patch plasterboard for new fittings which will no doubt be different diameters to my existing mix of 65 / 70 mm 'oles.

So general advice?
And any particular brand of 12v 50w equiv LEDs you'd recommend?

I swapped out my halogen GU10 for LED some time ago, but despite trying to get "better" quality units, I was uncomfortable with them in my non-fire rated downlighters, given the potential for component failure and effect on the fitting. What I have done is swap for Phillips GU10 which are high CRI and encased in glass, so I have no concerns about fire.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Kim on 25 November, 2021, 11:13:17 am
Isn't fire rating of downlighters about their effective properties as a hole in the (fire-rated) ceiling, rather than anything to do with their propensity to catch fire themselves?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Diver300 on 25 November, 2021, 12:30:12 pm
This cap is probably the principal point of compromise and failure in the design, I'd have thought.
It will likely have a fairly poor ESR rating, and its voltage rating will be close to it's operating envelope I expect.

So with a 12v AC supply, I'd expect the 'DC'-ish supply to the current regulator to be fairly poor in terms of 50Hz ripple, which might account for visible flicker.
It would depend on how well the high frequency current regulator is able to deal with that.
i can imagine there might be potential for beat frequency flicker, too.


I would agree that the capacitor may be overstressed. However, the visibility of flicker depends on the modulation depth, or how dark the dark times are compared to the bright times. The bad flicker (VW tail lights*) comes from 100 % modulation depth, so they turn off completely, and if that is combined with a poor mark space ratio (the light is only bright for a short part of the cycle) then flicker is very visible.

A capacitor followed by a regulator is likely to have reduced modulation depth, in that it may well not turn off completely, and a good mark space ratio, so that it is at or near full brightness for most of the time, so I think that flicker will be minimal. I don't think that you will get beat frequency modulation between 100 Hz rectified mains and 20 - 100 kHz switching frequency.

You can rectify and smooth the mains before feeding it to the lamp. That allows you to fit a generous capacitor.

*The VW tail lights were on for 1 ms and then off for 9 ms, so flickering at 100 Hz. They were far, far worse than discharge lights (fluorescent or sodium street lights) running from 50 Hz mains, so also modulated at 100 Hz, but fading to nearly off and fading back up every 10 ms, and spending a lot of time near full brightness.

My example from a car built 15 years ago is here:- http://www.malin.me.uk/vw.jpg  (http://www.malin.me.uk/vw.jpg) It's a photo of a stationary car taken with a large amount of deliberate camera movement. The red dots are the VW tail light. The orange band with bright and dark bits is a sodium street light. The white line is a 12 V incandescent car light.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Feanor on 25 November, 2021, 12:46:06 pm
This cap is probably the principal point of compromise and failure in the design, I'd have thought.
It will likely have a fairly poor ESR rating, and its voltage rating will be close to it's operating envelope I expect.

So with a 12v AC supply, I'd expect the 'DC'-ish supply to the current regulator to be fairly poor in terms of 50Hz ripple, which might account for visible flicker.
It would depend on how well the high frequency current regulator is able to deal with that.
i can imagine there might be potential for beat frequency flicker, too.


I would agree that the capacitor may be overstressed. However, the visibility of flicker depends on the modulation depth, or how dark the dark times are compared to the bright times. The bad flicker (VW tail lights*) comes from 100 % modulation depth, so they turn off completely, and if that is combined with a poor mark space ratio (the light is only bright for a short part of the cycle) then flicker is very visible.

A capacitor followed by a regulator is likely to have reduced modulation depth, in that it may well not turn off completely, and a good mark space ratio, so that it is at or near full brightness for most of the time, so I think that flicker will be minimal. I don't think that you will get beat frequency modulation between 100 Hz rectified mains and 20 - 100 kHz switching frequency.

I think because the buck regulator in the lamp provides current to the load from the inductor and diode during the off-time will help reduce the modulation depth too.
I don't know how typical the design in the tear-down video is, but I expect it's fairly standard.

I've just tried some Aurora lamps from Screwfix as direct drop-in replacements for the 50w halogens, using the existing in-situ 12v AC 'transformers'.
They seem to work just fine, with no visible flicker.
Which is good, since the 'transformers' are not accessible without more plasterboard cutting and patching faff.
And frankly, I've had enough of that recently. (But my plastering skillz have come on a bit!)

I'll start swapping out other ones too, and will only replace 'transformers' as required, to minimise faff.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Jaded on 25 November, 2021, 02:47:32 pm
Update with what we have in our kitchen now.

JCC JC94174  7W non-dimmable.

Nice pieces of kit and a 10 year warranty.

9 years into the warranty for these and no failures.

Did have a failure in a set put in two  years later, and it was replaced, with only COVID fuss (no one in warehouse as it was lockdown).
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 13 October, 2022, 04:35:06 pm
Having posted about frequent failure of the R63s in my kitchen, I saw these were on Special Offer at Sainsbury's last week, so stocked up.

It's now a year since I replaced a kitchen lamp and my 'bargains' might never be used...
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: hellymedic on 03 April, 2023, 02:06:25 am
North lamp in my kitchen has failed after 3 years.
That's about 6500 hours at 6 hours per day every day.
East has not been replaced since I started keeping records in 2017.
South has been replaced 5 times.
West has been replaced 3 times.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ian H on 03 April, 2023, 10:19:40 am
E decided that a small chandelier in the window of our local antiquarian book-seller would be perfect for the vestibule.  It's metal-framed with chain and metal ceiling rose. 

On removing the old fitting I found we have 2-core lighting wiring, so metal fittings not allowed.  My solution was to use an LED driver to convert to 12v and source a suitable LED bulb (found one under bus & caravan fittings).

Separately, I have been replacing the 12v halogen downlighters in the dining room with LEDs, until I fried the transformer.  So a replacement driver bought, which is when I discovered that a 25w driver won't cope with 20 watts of LEDs (at least the make I bought), so I had to daisychain another one.  Everything works now. 

The hall is also 12v downlighters, so that's going to need attention at some point as I replace the current lamps.  Only trouble is the hallway is about 25ft long and I've no idea where the transformer is (somewhere under the landing floor).
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 03 April, 2023, 10:41:24 am
E decided that a small chandelier in the window of our local antiquarian book-seller would be perfect for the vestibule.  It's metal-framed with chain and metal ceiling rose. 

On removing the old fitting I found we have 2-core lighting wiring, so metal fittings not allowed.  My solution was to use an LED driver to convert to 12v and source a suitable LED bulb (found one under bus & caravan fittings).

Separately, I have been replacing the 12v halogen downlighters in the dining room with LEDs, until I fried the transformer.  So a replacement driver bought, which is when I discovered that a 25w driver won't cope with 20 watts of LEDs (at least the make I bought), so I had to daisychain another one.  Everything works now. 

The hall is also 12v downlighters, so that's going to need attention at some point as I replace the current lamps.  Only trouble is the hallway is about 25ft long and I've no idea where the transformer is (somewhere under the landing floor).
I suspect you'll get issues with voltage drop.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ian H on 03 April, 2023, 12:11:54 pm
E decided that a small chandelier in the window of our local antiquarian book-seller would be perfect for the vestibule.  It's metal-framed with chain and metal ceiling rose. 

On removing the old fitting I found we have 2-core lighting wiring, so metal fittings not allowed.  My solution was to use an LED driver to convert to 12v and source a suitable LED bulb (found one under bus & caravan fittings).

Separately, I have been replacing the 12v halogen downlighters in the dining room with LEDs, until I fried the transformer.  So a replacement driver bought, which is when I discovered that a 25w driver won't cope with 20 watts of LEDs (at least the make I bought), so I had to daisychain another one.  Everything works now. 

The hall is also 12v downlighters, so that's going to need attention at some point as I replace the current lamps.  Only trouble is the hallway is about 25ft long and I've no idea where the transformer is (somewhere under the landing floor).
I suspect you'll get issues with voltage drop.
More than with the current 12v halogen lamps?
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 03 April, 2023, 12:27:00 pm
E decided that a small chandelier in the window of our local antiquarian book-seller would be perfect for the vestibule.  It's metal-framed with chain and metal ceiling rose. 

On removing the old fitting I found we have 2-core lighting wiring, so metal fittings not allowed.  My solution was to use an LED driver to convert to 12v and source a suitable LED bulb (found one under bus & caravan fittings).

Separately, I have been replacing the 12v halogen downlighters in the dining room with LEDs, until I fried the transformer.  So a replacement driver bought, which is when I discovered that a 25w driver won't cope with 20 watts of LEDs (at least the make I bought), so I had to daisychain another one.  Everything works now. 

The hall is also 12v downlighters, so that's going to need attention at some point as I replace the current lamps.  Only trouble is the hallway is about 25ft long and I've no idea where the transformer is (somewhere under the landing floor).
I suspect you'll get issues with voltage drop.
More than with the current 12v halogen lamps?
Under-volted halogen will just be a bit dim.

Under volted leds might not work.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: Ian H on 03 April, 2023, 01:56:38 pm
E decided that a small chandelier in the window of our local antiquarian book-seller would be perfect for the vestibule.  It's metal-framed with chain and metal ceiling rose. 

On removing the old fitting I found we have 2-core lighting wiring, so metal fittings not allowed.  My solution was to use an LED driver to convert to 12v and source a suitable LED bulb (found one under bus & caravan fittings).

Separately, I have been replacing the 12v halogen downlighters in the dining room with LEDs, until I fried the transformer.  So a replacement driver bought, which is when I discovered that a 25w driver won't cope with 20 watts of LEDs (at least the make I bought), so I had to daisychain another one.  Everything works now. 

The hall is also 12v downlighters, so that's going to need attention at some point as I replace the current lamps.  Only trouble is the hallway is about 25ft long and I've no idea where the transformer is (somewhere under the landing floor).
I suspect you'll get issues with voltage drop.
More than with the current 12v halogen lamps?
Under-volted halogen will just be a bit dim.

Under volted leds might not work.
Oh well.  Here's hoping I don't have to take too much floorboarding (and carpet) up.
Title: Re: LED room lighting (again)
Post by: sojournermike on 03 April, 2023, 10:54:20 pm
E decided that a small chandelier in the window of our local antiquarian book-seller would be perfect for the vestibule.  It's metal-framed with chain and metal ceiling rose. 

On removing the old fitting I found we have 2-core lighting wiring, so metal fittings not allowed.  My solution was to use an LED driver to convert to 12v and source a suitable LED bulb (found one under bus & caravan fittings).

Separately, I have been replacing the 12v halogen downlighters in the dining room with LEDs, until I fried the transformer.  So a replacement driver bought, which is when I discovered that a 25w driver won't cope with 20 watts of LEDs (at least the make I bought), so I had to daisychain another one.  Everything works now. 

The hall is also 12v downlighters, so that's going to need attention at some point as I replace the current lamps.  Only trouble is the hallway is about 25ft long and I've no idea where the transformer is (somewhere under the landing floor).
I suspect you'll get issues with voltage drop.
More than with the current 12v halogen lamps?
Under-volted halogen will just be a bit dim.

Under volted leds might not work.
Oh well.  Here's hoping I don't have to take too much floorboarding (and carpet) up.


Probably easier to take out the ceiling from below;)




Or is that for shower traps…