Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Jethro on 25 January, 2010, 03:11:46 pm
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Being as I am going to need to buy myself one of these, Any advice on where/what exactly I should get to avoid the "boil in the bag" effect.
Perhaps Audax UK (or Impsport) could come up with something if there is enough demand.
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You can cut holes in like the builders do for added ventilation. One can get runners tabbards which may count, they are mesh and very lightweight. (I saw one in the window of
The Complete Runner Up & Running today) http://upandrunning.co.uk/websales/detail.php?id=300033 I don't know what the Frenchies will allow. I'll use my Gist one but will probably modify it in some way to make it lighter
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We are British - we can wear string vests!
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I had a very useful string vest that I picked up in Portsmouth on the way to Paris in 99, and used again in 2007. Unfortunately it got lost towards the end of the last PBP (good job the ACP issue jersey was reflective), so I need to find another.
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I have a very nice reflective vest from a British company - it is a black mesh, with reflective stripes, plus pockets and hanging loops - can take a small Camelbak reservoir on the back too.
Can;t remember the name (sorry - will get it tonight).
I'm not sure if it counts as a full Highway-standard high viz though - it is not all-over yellow.
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These are a bit nice, if you want to splash out...
L2S, le spécialiste des vêtements sportswear haute visibilité pour la sécurité et la signalisation. (http://www.l2s-shop.com/index.php?cPath=32_34&osCsid=f86baa10b2b0cc3bcb858f5ec2af5139)
Personally, I make do with €2 hardware store cheapo that my wife took in and fitted a zip to.
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These are a bit nice, if you want to splash out...
L2S, le spécialiste des vêtements sportswear haute visibilité pour la sécurité et la signalisation. (http://www.l2s-shop.com/index.php?cPath=32_34&osCsid=f86baa10b2b0cc3bcb858f5ec2af5139)
Personally, I make do with €2 hardware store cheapo that my wife took in and fitted a zip to.
I see their €5.90 vests are only available in XS fluo yellow...
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The only details I could find were about the reflective vests that have to be used in cars. These must have two reflective tapes.
However at least one place talked about a "vest with reflective tape (EN471 standard)" and being visible from 150m
AUK used to make reflective vests and during the last PBP it was rather cool being able to spot the AUK riders by their large reflective logos
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Perhaps we should get some of these:
L2S-Shop.com (http://www.l2s-shop.com/product_info.php?products_id=55&osCsid=f86baa10b2b0cc3bcb858f5ec2af5139)
or these:
Respro Hi-Viz Super Vest Only £26.99
(http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Respro_Hi-Viz_Super_Vest/5360013395/)
made up with a YACF logo or two?
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As far as rules are concerned, I seem to recall that the law is not specific as to which EU regulation applies to a legal cycling vest. There's 2 regulations that are relevant, EN1150 which is for non-professional high-viz and EN471 which covers professional usage (e.g. road workers and the like). I believe that if your high-viz conforms to either then it's legal in France.
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I seem to recall a company selling a similar vest to the L2S at last years Semaine Fed.They were very good but expensive and the yorkshire side of me took over.I shall have to have another look this year.If you have the French made gear there should be less room for argument
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remember your support vehicle will need one too (per passenger)
the gilets JJB used to sell (for jogging) actually double as pretty decent thermal nightwear
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As far as I remember from de discussions when this law was introduced, the vest has to have a CE mark on the label.
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If this is relevant to me in a little over 18 months, I may start to consider it about then ;)
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Has anyone actually seen a French rider complying with this law as yet ? I certainly didn't on my hols last summer.
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Has anyone actually seen a French rider complying with this law as yet ? I certainly didn't on my hols last summer.
ok what you have to remember is that people will be doing PBP and if they come to the attention of the marshals and they don't have a vest then they will get a time penalty.
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Being as I am going to need to buy myself one of these, Any advice on where/what exactly I should get to avoid the "boil in the bag" effect.
Perhaps Audax UK (or Impsport) could come up with something if there is enough demand.
Any 'poundland' type store. Generally thin and open enough for all ventilation needs.
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Has anyone actually seen a French rider complying with this law as yet ?
Yes, several of them, every Weds for the last few months! ;)
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Yup. If you buy from Poundland, for, er, £1 - these have the triple advantage of being as thin,
flimsy lightweight and compact as you'll find.
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remember your support vehicle will need one too (per passenger)
Oh for goodness sake ... do we need a support vehicle this time?
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remember your support vehicle will need one too (per passenger)
Oh for goodness sake ... do we need a support vehicle this time?
Well, there has to be some way of transporting the Lord Mayor's robes and chain of office... ;)
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remember your support vehicle will need one too (per passenger)
Oh for goodness sake ... do we need a support vehicle this time?
With drop bags there is no excuse to have one!!!
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Well, there has to be some way of transporting the Lord Mayor's robes and chain of office... ;)
Hi-viz robes with reflective chain? Kills two birds with one stone etc. etc.
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remember your support vehicle will need one too (per passenger)
Oh for goodness sake ... do we need a support vehicle this time?
this time?
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Bloody cheek :)
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I've got three! One is an Altura vest with CE mark; another is a Ron Hill mesh vest without CE mark; the third is a freebie from Parker International with CE mark- don't know if they are still giving these away but I am happy to give my one to anyone who wants it for free. I will probably wear the Altura on PBP as it's the most sartorial.
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This was mine. You can't really tell that it's a mesh, but it was very light, and folded/screwed up so small that I lost it en route.
(http://www.ukcyclist.co.uk/index.php?option=com_joomgallery&func=watermark&catid=4&id=22&Itemid=73)
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When I was out on saturday I road for a while with JohnH he had a reflective vest on, similar to the one you have posted a picture of IanH but on the back there was a picture of a bike and "Audax UK" written underneath, do you know if these are available anywhere ?
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When I was out on saturday I road for a while with JohnH he had a reflective vest on, similar to the one you have posted a picture of IanH but on the back there was a picture of a bike and "Audax UK" written underneath, do you know if these are available anywhere ?
Those I believe are a solid material whereas mine was a very light open mesh. I don't know whether they're still available. Try the Clothing link on audax.uk.net or otherwise contact Pam (Brevet Card Production Sec, under Contacts) and ask if she has any remaining.
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I thought Pam had shut up shop; the clothing link just takes you to Impsport; the last item I had off Pam was a polo shirt for £3 a couple of years ago. But they do put clothing ads in Arrivee; check next month.
the AUK vest is a bit of a tank; better suited to controllers than long rides.
Justin(e) has an official PBP 2007 one but no idea where he got it; maybe it was on sale at the registration like the t shirts
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I thought Pam had shut up shop; the clothing link just takes you to Impsport; the last item I had off Pam was a polo shirt for £3 a couple of years ago. But they do put clothing ads in Arrivee; check next month.
the AUK vest is a bit of a tank; better suited to controllers than long rides.
Indeed, I've got two and I've never worn them on an Audax because of their bulk.
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Best place to go is a plant hire shop - HSS or similar - they have lightweight mesh gilets, with reflective strips and piping, that roll up very small.
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As a Gilet-wearer*, I'm tempted to get something that actually works as a gilet, rather than being something extra that I'll resent carting around.
i.e. a non-mesh, zipped front, mesh back (ideally with pocket for uneaten pastries etc).
Has anyone worn a hiviz-vest OVER a "normal" Gilet? It sounds like a really fiddly combination.
*Look away now MV
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something like this? (although it lacks those wide reflective bands the CE ones have)
Brooks Nightlife Running Gillet (Yellow/Black) [BRO266] - SportsShoes.com (http://www.sportsshoes.com/product/BRO266/brooks-nightlife-running-gillet/)
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Does anyone have any experience of whether wearing a reflective vest on top of a decent waterproof jacket affects it's performance. I'll have my Gill eVent - they say not to have anything rub against the fabric as it breaks down it's effectiveness at water shedding. I can imagine that a vest or gilet would not only rub but also retain water between the layers, which would at the very least prevent the jacket from breathing.
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If this is relevant to me in a little over 18 months, I may start to consider it about then ;)
Just 572 days to go
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As a Gilet-wearer*, I'm tempted to get something that actually works as a gilet, rather than being something extra that I'll resent carting around.
Whereas I just want the reflective bit to go over whatever I'm wearing and not make me warmer or sweatier.
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As a Gilet-wearer*, I'm tempted to get something that actually works as a gilet, rather than being something extra that I'll resent carting around.
Whereas I just want the reflective bit to go over whatever I'm wearing and not make me warmer or sweatier.
Me too. Is the law for refectives or hi-viz vests ? I mean would lashings of refelctives stuck onto a regular club pass, I suspect not as then it's largely a belt/sash
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retro-reflectives.
http://www2.securiteroutiere.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/DP_cisr_13_02_08.pdf
Page 12:
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2. Équiper tous les cyclistes d’un gilet rétro-réfléchissant de nuit hors agglomération
Les cyclistes sont très peu visibles de nuit, tout particulièrement hors agglomération en l’absence d’éclairage public.
Le Comité interministériel de la sécurité routière décide de rendre obligatoire le port d’un gilet rétro-réfléchissant par tout cycliste de nuit hors agglomération à compter du 1er septembre 2008.
Les cyclistes qui ne porteraient pas de gilet seront passibles d’une contravention de la deuxième classe.
"
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Does anyone have any experience of whether wearing a reflective vest on top of a decent waterproof jacket affects it's performance.
Yes it does. I wore a Poundland reflective gilet in France last year, over a Goretex Paclite jacket that is usually waterproof enough for me, in a day of steady rain. It was definitely less waterproof with the gilet on top.
As I understand it, the law is not just for night-time, but at any time of impaired visibility (ie same as vehicle lights in the UK)
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Google translations gave me this
"2. Equipping all cyclists a retro-reflective vest at night outside metropolitan
Cyclists are barely visible at night, especially outside urban areas in the absence of street lighting.
The Interministerial Committee for Road Safety agreed to the compulsory wearing a retro-reflective vest in any cyclist at night outside urban areas from 1 September 2008.
Cyclists who do not wear vests will be liable to a breach of the second class."
So "retro-reflective vest" whatever the French mean by that !!
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So "retro-reflective vest" whatever the French mean by that !!
1970's or earlier? Or do things from the 80's now count as "retro" as well? :)
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So "retro-reflective vest" whatever the French mean by that !!
1970's or earlier? Or do things from the 80's now count as "retro" as well? :)
I assume it has to comply with the same regs as the ones you have to carry in cars over there;
there are many cycling specific gilet ones if you google.fr; all about 30€
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Does anyone have any experience of whether wearing a reflective vest on top of a decent waterproof jacket affects it's performance.
Yes it does. I wore a Poundland reflective gilet in France last year, over a Goretex Paclite jacket that is usually waterproof enough for me, in a day of steady rain. It was definitely less waterproof with the gilet on top. ...........
I use an Altura reflective gilet, often over a Goretex jacket. I haven't noticed any dimninution of the jacket's waterproofedness as a consequence, although I confess that since the things tend in my experience not to be wholly waterproof in sustained rain anyway, I'd perhaps not notice!
The Altura gilet has a useful mesh pocket on the back which I find helpful when stopping in the dark, usually used briefly for gloves etc. whilst shopping, "getting comfortable" etc. It folds fairly small but not really "pocket size" - the reflective strips are plasticky and a bit stiff, although they will fold if you try hard enough. I usually carry it rolled and toe-strapped to the top of the Carradice. The material is fairly breathable and it has a good double action zip which doesn't jam. Although I take the point made above that ideally one would have something that didn't change the insulation of your existing clothing, in practice I find that the modest extra layer of the Altura gilet merely offsets the usual slight drop in temperature come nightfall; in other words, if I'm not overheating before dusk, I don't overheat after dusk as a consequence of putting the thing on!
I would wish to have something a little more stylish/less nerdish though!
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So "retro-reflective vest" whatever the French mean by that !!
1970's or earlier? Or do things from the 80's now count as "retro" as well? :)
I assume it has to comply with the same regs as the ones you have to carry in cars over there;
there are many cycling specific gilet ones if you google.fr; all about 30€
Is that Standard 1150 ?
et voila
http://www.cyclesetsports.com/boutique_en_article_2042.html
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I mean would lashings of refelctives stuck onto a regular club pass
Theoretically, yes. Because one or other of the EN regulations actually stipulates what is required in terms of width and amount of reflective stripe. I guess if you could show that you'd got that on your home made gilet/jersey then it'd be okay. Whether you'd want to argue the toss with a gendarme in the small hours is another matter entirely!
The tragedy, imo and as touched upon by helly and others, is that there really is very little selection in functional, legal and effective high-viz garments for cyclists. The L2S link I posted earlier shows some gear that gets close (at a cost), as does the link posted by greenbank, but most of us will already have (I suspect) jackets and/or gilets that already offer the qualities of warmth, waterproofing and breathability that we need/want. So currently I suspect what we're probably looking for is something almost vapour like... reflective strip that floats above the outer layer without effecting its performance. Until that outer layer needs replacing that is and then we'll incorporate high-viz into the equation and wear it 24/7 (which, incidentally, the French would probably write as 24/24 7/7... but that's another story!)
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Whether you'd want to argue the toss with a gendarme in the small hours is another matter entirely!
Again, the problem is unlikely to be the gendarmes, more the PBP marshals that could decide it's not up to scratch enough and give you a time penalty or, at bike check time, they ask to see your night time gilet and tell you it's not good enough and prevent you from registering.
Sticking reflectives on a jersey doesn't sound like the best idea given PBP is 4 days (in the same jersey), and the jersey would have to be worn over the top of every other layer (including a waterproof jacket if it's raining).
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You're right greenbank, with specific reference to PBP. I was talking generally.
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So currently I suspect what we're probably looking for is something almost vapour like... reflective strip that floats above the outer layer without effecting its performance.
Its not about visibility - its about complying with regulation. I don't care if its khaki camouflage.
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An interesting comment. I suspect that's not a point of view shared by all. ;)
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I'm pretty ambivalent when it comes to dustbin-man suits. The proportion of accidents on the open road where your lights were not seen, but reflectives would have been must be incredibly small (assuming you have decent lights, of course).
So while I wouldn't avoid a product because it incorporates reflectives, I don't seek them out either (except on my right wrist where I have one of those really bright Scotchlite bands, for signalling with).
It can't be as simple as all that anyway - my girlfriend and I both used to commute up the A90 into Edinburgh, me in a charcoal jacket and she in a luminous one, and guess who had more trouble with close overtakes! :)
To go slightly OT, does anyone know how the French do with pedal reflector / other bike reflector rules? Do I need to dig out the spoke reflectors from our last new bike? ;)
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I was trying to find the pictures of the reflective top I wore for PBP. It was about as minimal as it is possible to get. Just a V shaped of reflective tape (like braces) and a belt. It was high enough that it did not interfere with my access to rear pockets and minimal enough not to bother me in any other way. Passed scrutineering as well. I'll dig out some photos later, although they'll be buried in the PBP photo thread.
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was it like mine ?
(http://www.mseries.plus.com/parisbrest2007/pbp3.jpg)(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1267/1269155757_02ed9c09b9.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mseries/1269155757/)
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I have a reflective vest from http://www.urban-glow.com/home.ht
Mine is a tour vest- probably goes to the other end of the spectrum - it is a good bit of kit.
Have a look at their lighter Tristar Urban-Glow front details (http://www.urban-glow.com/tristar%20vest.htm)
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As a Gilet-wearer*, I'm tempted to get something that actually works as a gilet, rather than being something extra that I'll resent carting around.
Whereas I just want the reflective bit to go over whatever I'm wearing and not make me warmer or sweatier.
Yes, i think that's a sensible approach too - what I really don't want, is something inbetween!
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As a Gilet-wearer*, I'm tempted to get something that actually works as a gilet, rather than being something extra that I'll resent carting around.
Whereas I just want the reflective bit to go over whatever I'm wearing and not make me warmer or sweatier.
Yes, i think that's a sensible approach too - what I really don't want, is something inbetween!
it's what I want and have. But rules are rules. C'est la vie
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I'm very tempted to do a bit of DIY as the various vests and gilets I've seen have either been too heavy/bulky or too little reflective material to fulfil the French requirements - running gilets seem to fall into this category, they just have a bit of piping and/or small logos rather than the full width, 5 cm stripes etc.
Pennine Outdoor (as well as other places) sell reflective tape and piping as well as dayglo materials, so I feel an afternoon of sewing coming on ;D but perhaps not for a while yet ::-) Or maybe it would be good to do some testing beforehand - I'm signed up for the Galashiels 400 in August so plenty of dark roads there, me thinks 8)
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Whatever you settle on will have to be capable of going over all your clothes, you'll be wearing it at night when you will have all your warm stuff on and it might be raining.
This film shows the full range of reflective stuff people wore, I assume it all passed inspection.
Paris Brest Paris, The Second Night. on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/1123364)
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Poundland gilets are extremely lightweight, thin and packable, and claim to conform to recent French (not PBP) legal requirement"". And they cost, er, £1.
"" as such, they are more 'hi-viz' than 'reflective'. I can vouch that in wet conditions, if worn over a dark garment, they are actually almost invisible. But legal. PBP requirement will presumably drop into line with the new French legislation - otherwise you might need to carry 2 gilets, a hi-viz one for day (French law) and a reflective one for night (PBP).
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I had a reflective vest once.
But I got fed up with it constantly wanting to discuss the meaning of life :)
IGMC.
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At the recent Semaine Federal I bought the "official" FFCT (Federation Francais Cyclo Tourisme) reflective gilet. IMO it is very good quality and a much better specifically designed item than cheaper options. It cost 15 euros.
La boutique FFCT - La sécurité (http://www.ffct.org/index.php?id=253)
PS I bought it for general use not for PBP 2011! :hand:
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Good grief - that looks almost usable. It's got a zip. And a drop tail .... hard to tell from photos, but it may actually be a proper cycling gilet!
Which for 15E isn't bad at all.
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Good grief - that looks almost usable. It's got a zip. And a drop tail .... hard to tell from photos, but it may actually be a proper cycling gilet!
Which for 15E isn't bad at all.
Looks a bit sweaty to me....
I've got one of the cheapo mesh ones, which I prefer to the AUK one (that I also have) for that reason. I'll still stick with a belt-type for PBP though.
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Good grief - that looks almost usable. It's got a zip. And a drop tail .... hard to tell from photos, but it may actually be a proper cycling gilet!
Which for 15E isn't bad at all.
JJB do jogging ones for about 1/2 the price
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[I'll still stick with a belt-type for PBP though.
Will that be possible? I thought that French law mandated a reflective gilet now?
Dave
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Whatever you settle on will have to be capable of going over all your clothes, you'll be wearing it at night when you will have all your warm stuff on and it might be raining.
This film shows the full range of reflective stuff people wore, I assume it all passed inspection.
Paris Brest Paris, The Second Night. on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/1123364)
That's a great bit of film, Damon. Is it part of a series - e.g. first night, third night?
I didn't ride in 07 but I recall the Loudeac problem in 03. I lost a lot of time queueing for food so once I saw the queues for beds I carried on to Carhaix and grabbed a couple of hours there. Next time I will be aiming to ride straight through to Carhaix before sleeping.
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[I'll still stick with a belt-type for PBP though.
Will that be possible? I thought that French law mandated a reflective gilet now?
Dave
I'm guessing MV means the "sam Browne" style i.e. chest-diagonal + belt.
Does anyone have an actual reference for the law, or better still the bit that is believed to have changed since 2007 (when many of us wore the belt type!)
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[I'll still stick with a belt-type for PBP though.
Will that be possible? I thought that French law mandated a reflective gilet now?
Dave
Good point. As Matt says, anyone know for sure ?
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From PBP site:
A reflective vest or crossbelt or reflective garment MUST be worn when riding at night (this equiment must be presented at the cycle check). If your reflective gear is obscured (perhaps because you are carrying a backpack or riding a recumbent) ensure you have additional reflective material to ensure you are visible. Light coloured clothing is recommended for night riding. It is highly recommended that a rigid helmet be worn throughout the event. It is recommended that the official P.B.P. jersey or a club jersey be worn. Professional cycling team jerseys are prohibited.
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But on the other hand:
According to French law, a reflective vest is mandatory
when riding at night. Alternatives like a reflective sash or
belt are not acceptable as substitutes. Reflective ankle
bands are recommended as an additional safety feature.
From the 2011 brochure
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Rapha had some pink tabards with a reflective band at the 24. Some people might like those.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4081/4904853822_13bef79d62_z.jpg)
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Whatever you settle on will have to be capable of going over all your clothes, you'll be wearing it at night when you will have all your warm stuff on and it might be raining.
This film shows the full range of reflective stuff people wore, I assume it all passed inspection.
Paris Brest Paris, The Second Night. on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/1123364)
That's a great bit of film, Damon. Is it part of a series - e.g. first night, third night?
I didn't ride in 07 but I recall the Loudeac problem in 03. I lost a lot of time queueing for food so once I saw the queues for beds I carried on to Carhaix and grabbed a couple of hours there. Next time I will be aiming to ride straight through to Carhaix before sleeping.
It's part of a DVD, there was one in 2003, extracts are on Vimeo as Youtube don't like the music.
PBP 2003 Part 1 on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/9211968)
PBP 2003 Film Part 2 on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/9211423)
Every 4 years brings an advance in technology, in 2011 it should be possible to carry a broadcast quality HD camera, but every PBP stretches the enthusiasm for this sort of thing a bit thinner.
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Rapha had some pink tabards with a reflective band at the 24. Some people might like those.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4081/4904853822_13bef79d62_z.jpg)
£55 I imagine
(Do they do a Tweed version?)
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Relective Tartan is available, so reflective tweed may well be.
New Reflective Tartan | SCOTTISH CLANS BLOG FROM SCOTLAND (http://www.scotclans.com/bletherskite/?p=664)
As indeed it is .
http://www.dashingtweeds.co.uk/dt/tailoredoutfits/tailored-outfits-sub1/
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Every 4 years brings an advance in technology, in 2011 it should be possible to carry a broadcast quality HD camera, but every PBP stretches the enthusiasm for this sort of thing a bit thinner.
You'd probably get some more zip if Rapha gave you some stuff to wear :)
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Looks a bit sweaty to me....
I went to France for a ride at the weekend and bought one of these - definitely not sweaty as the material is a fine mesh.
After wearing it for three days non-stop the design seems to be pretty well thought out (loads of reflective material, cut-outs to access jersey pockets) and it's CE marked.
15 euros seemed a bargain and the FFCT shop were really helpful, letting me try on different sizes.
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I'm guessing MV means the "sam Browne" style i.e. chest-diagonal + belt.
Does anyone have an actual reference for the law, or better still the bit that is believed to have changed since 2007 (when many of us wore the belt type!)
Le site de la Sécurité Routière - Gilet et triangle de présignalisation (http://www2.securiteroutiere.gouv.fr/vos-infos/presse/communiques/2-2008/CP_14-04-08.html)
- Les cyclistes (conducteur et passager), doivent revêtir un gilet de sécurité pour circuler hors agglomération de nuit, ou de jour lorsque la visibilité est insuffisante, à compter du 1er octobre 2008. Dès le 1er octobre, le non-respect de ces mesures sera passible pour les cyclistes, d’une contravention de deuxième classe d’un montant de 35 € (22 € pour l’amende minorée).
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I made the mistake of ordering a fluoro pink high vis vest from Sustrans once, they claimed to be 'one size' but the one size is actually XL and would fit myself and 2 other similarly sized people in it simultaneously. Maybe one day I will get out my sewing machine and alter it ::-)
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un gilet de sécurité
:(
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One other little thing that has come in recently is that two abreast riding is prohibited after dark.
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Could someone please despatch a ROFL-copter?
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One other little thing that has come in recently is that two abreast riding is prohibited after dark.
PBP rules, French law, or a joke?
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One other little thing that has come in recently is that two abreast riding is prohibited after dark.
That should make the first night interesting as 4,000 cyclists leave Paris in single file
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If riding 2 abreast is banned, simply ride 3 (or more) abreast.
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http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006074228&idArticle=LEGIARTI000006842339&dateTexte=20100909
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Or just do like the locals, ignore inconvenient laws!
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http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006074228&idArticle=LEGIARTI000006842339&dateTexte=20100909
I read this as referring to motor bikes and scooters rather than pedal cycles
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http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006074228&idArticle=LEGIARTI000006842339&dateTexte=20100909
I read this as referring to motor bikes and scooters rather than pedal cycles
According to my French, it does apply to pedal cycles not towing a trailer. ;)
BTW I didn't know this!
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The drivers of two-wheeled cycles without a trailer or sidecar shall never ride more than two abreast on the roadway.
They must be in single file after the fall of day and in all cases where traffic conditions require, in particular when a vehicle wanting to go beyond listing his approach.
Mrs G says that's a pretty reasonable translation.
So, never more than 2 abreast during the day, and at night, single file.
Comedy 'beyond listing his approach' left in on purpose...
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Or just do like the locals, ignore inconvenient laws!
The problem comes on an event, run by the locals, where they can impose penalties for breaking any laws.
I'll be interested to hear what the organisers have to say about this.
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The 'official' French ones (i.e. the approved ones as sold by/for the FFCT) are reduced in price from €79 to €45 until the end of the month...
(http://www.l2s-shop.com/images/gilet%20vista%20face.JPG)
---> L2S-Shop.com (http://www.l2s-shop.com/product_info.php?products_id=38)
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LEL - free ankle-bands!
PBP - €45 surcharge to buy the official vest (or €79 next month).
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sheesh... you try to offer info to people who might be interested and what do you get? ::-)
It's not the official PBP gilet at all. It's a night-time use regulation conforming gilet as recommended by the FFCT. You are quite free to wear something else for PBP if you wish (subject to scrutineers approval of course).
Personally, I think it's a decent product and have ordered one, not just for PBP but for night-time wear generally. It's a functional gilet, good thought into design and legal high-viz.
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sheesh... you try to offer info to people who might be interested and what do you get? ::-)
The mattc attackbot kicks in! ;D
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They don't seem to want to accept an online order from outside France - anyone successfully ordered one?
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I have a black Gore Xenon vest/gilet that has reflective patches and piping on it. I wonder if it will be enough:-
This one: Google images result for 'Gore Xenon Gilet' (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://s.wiggle.co.uk/images/gore%2520xenon%2520vest.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/-_-/5360023932/&usg=__MIzhMR8zAeGosvH_eJ8X-Vhrskk=&h=350&w=350&sz=19&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=s5Zs5NQL1BXebM:&tbnh=156&tbnw=156&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgore%2Bgilet%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26biw%3D1340%26bih%3D621%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=643&vpy=289&dur=1389&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=100&ty=243&ei=lpK8TIGqAoWCOrLp_IcH&oei=VZK8TO-iGMObOsv6xYAB&esq=4&page=1&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:0)
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sheesh... you try to offer info to people who might be interested and what do you get? ::-)
The mattc attackbot kicks in! ;D
... and with Pavlovian reflex, the Flatus spoon of stirring whips into action!
Andrew, I wasn't having a go at you :-*
I just object to wearing stuff we don't need on an event. And as this is the only vest officially approved (that I know of, so far) it does verge on a money-making venture, doncha think?
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sheesh... you try to offer info to people who might be interested and what do you get? ::-)
The mattc attackbot kicks in! ;D
... and with Pavlovian reflex, the Flatus spoon of stirring whips into action!
Andrew, I wasn't having a go at you :-*
I just object to wearing stuff we don't need on an event. And as this is the only vest officially approved (that I know of, so far) it does verge on a money-making venture, doncha think?
I'd be very surprised if that was the only CE approved reflective vest.
(Edit: The required standard is EN1150, which is what the FFCT gilet meets, apparently. I probably already have a vest that meets this; I'll have to check whether it's marked though)
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(Edit: The required standard is EN1150, which is what the FFCT gilet meets, apparently. I probably already have a vest that meets this; I'll have to check whether it's marked though)
A small run of labels stating EN1150 compliance would be much cheaper.
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If anyone would like a fluoro pink high vis Sustrans gilet with reflective stripes all over it in size Large (and it is large), let me know. It could provide me with spacious outdoor accomodation but is a lot too big to actually wear. (They were sold as 'one size' ???)
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sheesh... you try to offer info to people who might be interested and what do you get? ::-)
The mattc attackbot kicks in! ;D
... and with Pavlovian reflex, the Flatus spoon of stirring whips into action!
Andrew, I wasn't having a go at you :-*
I just object to wearing stuff we don't need on an event. And as this is the only vest officially approved (that I know of, so far) it does verge on a money-making venture, doncha think?
No. Any vest which has the required safety label is oficially approved. The usual reflective vest on sale at many shops has this label. The pictured one is the only specific *cycling* one which is officially approved. No-one will object to you using a generic safety vest.
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You are quite free to wear something else for PBP if you wish (subject to scrutineers approval of course).
It should be nice and simple this year because the scrutineers will have to accept anything marked EN1150 (assuming it's not worn out) as that is their legal requirement. Similarly, I'd imagine there will be no hope of getting anything through which is not marked EN1150 (because then everyone knows up front you won't be legal).
The linked gilet looks good - it's not yellow (awesome bonus) and, as a further enormous win, it looks like it might actually be useful on the bike. I would normally be riding in a gilet anyway, overnight.
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Firstly an admission - I have no interest in PBP and picked up this thread due to its title.
As I understand what has been written here, PBP will require EN1150. How can they do this when the French law requires EN471 when riding in the dark, out of town etc? EN471 outranks EN1150 because BS EN 1150 covers garments for purely private use, but BS EN 471 sets more demanding minimum standards of visual performance and durability needed for high visibility clothing worn in the course of a trade or profession.
Just interested that's all.
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Just interested that's all.
I'm sure it's been debated elsewhere on this forum (and at some length!), and it's not my intention to rekindle that debate. I know there is confusion because of the 2 regulations but I would say, in short, that I think either EN are practicably accepted.
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it looks like it might actually be useful on the bike. I would normally be riding in a gilet anyway, overnight.
Egg-sactly! I think of it as saving me carrying 2 garments! Also, I personally like gilets that enable access to shirt pockets. This does that as well as having it's own zipped pocket. As I said before, it looks some thought has been put into it's design.
As Evo pointed out, stores are awash with EN labelled garments (here in France anyway). Any DIY store will sell you a basic vest for less than €5, and that would pass muster at PBP check in. I rode in one such for my BRM 400 in June. It's not particularly flattering (should you be concerned about such things), one-size fits all and could be a right pain in the ace, I suspect, if conditions meant it started flapping around. Still, it's legal.
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Also, it wouldn't take much sewing skill to take in a standard waistcoat to make it less flappy.
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No, indeed, as I did with my old motorcycle one.
Btw, just a word of warning about the original link I posted, it MAY not be secure. I've changed it now but it would seem the first link I gave showed some client details... and not mine either!
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The linked gilet looks good - it's not yellow (awesome bonus) and, as a further enormous win, it looks like it might actually be useful on the bike. I would normally be riding in a gilet anyway, overnight.
Not yellow?
"Jaune" or "Juane-orange" ; so yellow or almost yellow. :P
(Actually with my vision one of them looks green - so I'll assume that's the jaune one!)
Ranting about the rules aside, these do look quite a good product (although I am always suspicious of the word "breathable" unless it is attached to a known material like Pertex). Thanks for the link Andrew.
Anyone got past the UK address problem?
Anyone speak good enough French to arrange an AUK bulk discount?!?
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http://www2.securiteroutiere.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Gilet_triangle.pdf
Does not specify either EN471 or EN1150, just that it's CE marked.
EN1150 is the lower standard.
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http://www2.securiteroutiere.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Gilet_triangle.pdf
Does not specify either EN471 or EN1150, just that it's CE marked.
EN1150 is the lower standard.
That really is rather vague, isn't it! And most of that is about motorists standing by their car. This is the only text about cycling:
"
ET NOS AMIS CYCLISTES ? (i like that phrase)
Obligation pour tout cycliste circulant hors agglomération, de nuit ou de jour si visibilité mauvaise , de porter un gilet
rétro-réfléchissant à partir du 1er Septembre 2008.
"
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I've just checked and the ones I bought from Poundland (2 for £1) are EN471, so presumably they're OK.
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Anyone know if the official Audax UK waistcoats will be suitable? They're a little on the big side though...
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Anyone know if the official Audax UK waistcoats will be suitable? They're a little on the big side though...
Official AudaxUK waistcoat? Not sure about that, but might be interested in a 'club' blazer and tie. 8)
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The one like this: Malcolm Howlett and 500 others | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fixedwheelnut/2815867914/in/set-72157607046676855/) with "Audax UK" underneath the bicycle...
Anyway, I'll be at home in a couple of hours so I can check mine anyway.
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Anyone know if the official Audax UK waistcoats will be suitable? They're a little on the big side though...
Official AudaxUK waistcoat? Not sure about that, but might be interested in a 'club' blazer and tie. 8)
All members should ensure their club pipe is lit between sunset and sunrise.
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Seems that compliance with EN 1150 or EN 471 makes a garment vile, by design.
http://rema.org.uk/pdf/professional-hivis-advice.pdf (http://rema.org.uk/pdf/professional-hivis-advice.pdf)
They MUST be yellow, orange-red or red (no pink!)
Bands must be 50mm wide an encircle the torso.
I don't see how that gilet could comply.
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I looked at that document last night; I don't think it discusses the EN1150 requirements at all.
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My official Audax UK hi-viz waistcoat has 'EN 471' on the label. :)
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Seems that compliance with EN 1150 or EN 471 makes a garment vile, by design.
http://rema.org.uk/pdf/professional-hivis-advice.pdf (http://rema.org.uk/pdf/professional-hivis-advice.pdf)
They MUST be yellow, orange-red or red (no pink!)
Bands must be 50mm wide an encircle the torso.
I don't see how that gilet could comply.
Isn't that part of the EN471 specification? It seems that 1150 is also allowable and apart from being described as for non-professional purposes, I have not seen any other requirements such as width of the reflective bits.
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Every French garage sells hi-viz vests for about £4.
Just buy one, put it on at night and your uncle instantly becomes Bob.
If you're worried about it affecting your "coolness" then stop worrying, it's dark at night (and besides which, you are probably, statistically speaking, middle-aged, wearing lycra, wearing a cycling helmet, stinking to high-heaven and walking like John Wayne, Angelina Jolie stopped stalking you years ago).
What a fuss.
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The only fuss I'll make is if I can't find something that's a lightweight mesh, because I might not want an extra layer. I had one and lost it somewhere before Paris last time.
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I have checked the label on the one I used in 2007.
CE marked to EN471.
I doubt it cost me very much. I didn't buy it for PBP.
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If you're worried about it affecting your "coolness" then stop worrying, it's dark at night (and besides which, you are probably, statistically speaking, middle-aged, wearing lycra, wearing a cycling helmet, stinking to high-heaven and walking like John Wayne, Angelina Jolie stopped stalking you years ago).
What if you're young, have an incredible derriere and rakishly good-looking hair (unspoilt by foam hat), and a restraining order against Angelina Jolie? ;D
Seriously though, my main concern would be whether it will be 'boil in the bag' or not. It was quite a revelation when I tried my first windproof and the DHB cycling jacket I'd previously been using went in the bin (literally). You can sweat like a bastard and not be sweaty - amazing stuff.
I'm happy to suspend my "looking like a binman will save your life" skepticism when in Rome, but not enthusiastic about lying in a damp pool of my own sweat for several nights.
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I have not seen any other requirements such as width of the reflective bits.
I have. When I looked at the specifics of the regulations. One or other of them (or maybe both!) specifies how much reflective strip, how wide, etc etc etc. Imo, that's really not the confusion though, in so far as cycling is concerned.
As I recall and I stand to be corrected, the laws that require cyclists to wear high-viz don't actually specify which EN spec is applicable. But I'm sure this debate has been had before on this forum, and some sort of consensus opinion was reached!
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As I recall and I stand to be corrected, the laws that require cyclists to wear high-viz don't actually specify which EN spec is applicable. But I'm sure this debate has been had before on this forum, and some sort of consensus opinion was reached!
I think it's a mistake to assume a forum aims to achieve consensus. On any subject. ;)
(Don't forget we're mostly UK-based cyclists, so we don't normally worry about these things.)
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I think it's a mistake to assume a forum aims to achieve consensus.
I'm not sure I did ???
However, I do remember a healthy discussion and that (somewhat surprisingly given the nature of forums!) people managed to weave their way through the facts and opinions to agree something that seemed to satisfy.
Btw, I think there's some very 'nit picky' UK based cyclists on this forum (not referring to you Matt) and I think that's a good thing. It's always beneficial to have input from people that are worried about these things even when they don't concern them directly. :)
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If you're worried about it affecting your "coolness" then stop worrying, it's dark at night (and besides which, you are probably, statistically speaking, middle-aged, wearing lycra, wearing a cycling helmet, stinking to high-heaven and walking like John Wayne, Angelina Jolie stopped stalking you years ago).
What if you're young, have an incredible derriere and rakishly good-looking hair (unspoilt by foam hat), and a restraining order against Angelina Jolie? ;D
Then Audax isn't for you, you probably just got lost on your way to a Sportive.
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Touche!
I do often feel a bit odd, coming in at half the "average age of riders...". Still, I also feel like I have half the wizened power of many riders, so it probably balances out in the wash.
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EF, we should club together with Shaun Gregory sometime and descend on an underpopulated Audax, giving it an average age in the 20s. That'll show'em :demon:
Seriously, I'm now worried about whether my hi-viz vest will pass. I checked last night and couldn't see any European standard labels on it, though I may have removed them. I'll possibly go back to the shop and check! In the meantime, can anyone comment on the suitability of this thing? Like Ian and EF, I'd prefer to take the minimum possible in terms of extra layers of hi-viz.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1320/5098711261_1a920f299a.jpg)
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EF, we should club together with Shaun Gregory sometime and descend on an underpopulated Audax, giving it an average age in the 20s. That'll show'em :demon:
Won't work, just by coincidence an equal number of old gimmers will turn up, maintaining the balance.
Anyway, back to reflectives...
Based on my memory of the description I saw of the various standards I'd say "no" given that the standards say that the retro-reflective bands have to continue around the whole body, so a vest like that probably won't do.
(That rema link below says "bands encircling the torso".)
Obviously there's compliance with the standards and compliance with the PBP officials. They may look at that and wave you through, then at one control in the dead of the night one of the officials may give you a time penalty because it doesn't meet the full standard. C'est la vie.
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Surely the solution is a special edition jersey which incorporates the features needed to satisfy the regs.
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Who's going to front the cash to put it through testing though? I'm guessing that would cost serious money.
(Also, for whatever it's worth, I'd quite like a jersey that I might wear again someday.)
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Surely the solution is a special edition jersey which incorporates the features needed to satisfy the regs.
Wouldn#t a non-PBP but hi-viz edition sell more, thereby driving unit costs down? I say that as a non-PBPer, but a lover of all things hi-viz who would love a YACF gilet.
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A jersey wouldn't work, cos you have to wear your hi-viz over everything else.
(unless 2011 is guaranteed dry. Or waterproofs are banned.)
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... a lover of all things hi-viz...
The mind boggles.
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Who's going to front the cash to put it through testing though? I'm guessing that would cost serious money.
(Also, for whatever it's worth, I'd quite like a jersey that I might wear again someday.)
Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to buy a job lot of certified vests and get them overprinted?
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Who's going to front the cash to put it through testing though? I'm guessing that would cost serious money.
(Also, for whatever it's worth, I'd quite like a jersey that I might wear again someday.)
Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to buy a job lot of certified vests and get them overprinted?
My inner pessimist says that most will have nasty coatings that make post-production printing impossible expensive.
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Who's going to front the cash to put it through testing though? I'm guessing that would cost serious money.
(Also, for whatever it's worth, I'd quite like a jersey that I might wear again someday.)
Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to buy a job lot of certified vests and get them overprinted?
My inner pessimist says that most will have nasty coatings that make post-production printing impossible expensive.
AIUI the last batch of AUK PBP vests were certified but weren't pricy. I don't know how they were sourced.
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My inner pessimist says that most will have nasty coatings that make post-production printing impossible expensive.
You can screenprint on to almost anything.
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... a lover of all things hi-viz...
The mind boggles.
Don't knock it...
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My inner pessimist says that most will have nasty coatings that make post-production printing impossible expensive.
You can screenprint on to almost anything.
Can you conjure up a per-unit cost of printing the AUK logo (in readable size) on $random-garment ?!? Say 10-50 units?
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I tried on my EN471 certified AUK reflective waistcoat last night, not as bad a fit as I thought it was (I had thought it was tent-like), so I'll probably use that for PBP. Especially as it has "Audax UK" on the back of it.
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I tried on my EN471 certified AUK reflective waistcoat last night, not as bad a fit as I thought it was (I had thought it was tent-like), so I'll probably use that for PBP. Especially as it has "Audax UK" on the back of it.
My Gist (http://www.gistworld.com/) one is tent like. I'll fatten up in time though.
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This one (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HIGH-VISIBILITY-YELLOW-REFLECTIVE-MESH-VEST-LARGE-/320575763062?pt=UK_BOI_ProtectiveGear_RL&hash=item4aa3cdf276#ht_1718wt_963) looks like it'll do. It's built of mesh, it'll probably pack down small, the reflectives look like they go all around the sides and it only costs £1.99 off the 'bay.
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I suppose you actually have to wear the things, not just put it on as you approach a control ? Everything we have at work is EN471 class 2 or 3, but they are not really cycling wear.
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I suppose you actually have to wear the things, not just put it on as you approach a control ?
Yep
They have roving motorcycle patrols who have the power to stop you and give you a time penalty. Not many in 2007, but more in 2003
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They have roving motorcycle patrols who have the power to stop you and give you a time penalty. Not many in 2007, but more in 2003
the cheese eating surrender monkey bar stewards. I better try riding in my building site hi vis a few times then. When that fails I suppose I'll spend money.
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They only cost about £2 (99p on Ebay).
I used to ride at night in one all the time, it didn't bother me, they aren't sweaty.
On the dark lanes around here you are more visble at night (wearing a hi-viz) than in the day.
Now I tend to have it rolled-up on the back of my Carradice, reflective strips facing rear-most, better than having a rear light.
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Now I tend to have it rolled-up on the back of my Carradice, reflective strips facing rear-most, better than having a rear light.
Which would rather suggest that reflective torsos aren't actually the best way to be seen ...
Still, the leuuuur is the leuuuuur.
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Now I tend to have it rolled-up on the back of my Carradice, reflective strips facing rear-most, better than having a rear light.
Which would rather suggest that reflective torsos aren't actually the best way to be seen ...
Still, the leuuuur is the leuuuuur.
It doesn't suggest that.
I just think it's a good addition to my rear light.
If I was wearing it I think I'd be more visible as there would be more reflective material exposed.
My own experience of driving a car around here is that I see "Scotchlite" reflected in my headlights from further away than some of the inadequate rear lights in use.
Rear LEDs rely heavily on alignment for their brightness whereas "Scotchlite" doesn't.
Edit. I suppose I'd better make the point that this is all anecdotal and based on riding mostly in totally dark rural areas. It does not apply to brightly illuminated London where camouflage clothes are better to be seen, helmets kill small children and brakes are instruments of the anti-christ.
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You could just... align your rear light :P
On the whole though I think reflectives are not too shabby, as it allows some leeway for the unexpected (like, your rear light bounces off and smashes and you are miles from home on an unlit road). It's just a shame to make people wear dustbin suits when there are quite servicable alternatives (I saw a guy the other day whose rear mudguard had been lined with an unbelievably bright reflective material, but that wouldn't be legal for all that the surface area was larger than many high-viz tops).
Although it looks good, the eBay one linked above doesn't say it's marked with either applicable EN standard. I'd be wary of turning up with such a garment just because, for simplicity, they might have told the officials to check for garments which fulfill the French law requirement, without a "we're going to spend 5 minutes arguing that it's just as good" phase to fall back on.
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(I saw a guy the other day whose rear mudguard had been lined with an unbelievably bright reflective material, but that wouldn't be legal for all that the surface area was larger than many high-viz tops).
I have also done this (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v223/Minitar1/Dg/?action=view¤t=DR1-1.jpg). I was unaware it was illegal though?
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(I saw a guy the other day whose rear mudguard had been lined with an unbelievably bright reflective material, but that wouldn't be legal for all that the surface area was larger than many high-viz tops).
I have also done this (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v223/Minitar1/Dg/?action=view¤t=DR1-1.jpg). I was unaware it was illegal though?
Sloppy language by EF:
I assume he meant your reflective would not be sufficient to make you and your bike legal i.e. it wouldn't match the EN-whatevers.
... I suppose I'd better make the point that this is all anecdotal and based on riding mostly in totally dark rural areas. It does not apply to brightly illuminated London where camouflage clothes are better to be seen, helmets kill small children and brakes are instruments of the anti-christ.
I think PBP will be more like the former than the latter (unless they've spent a lot on streetlights since '07)!
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I suppose I'd better make the point that this is all anecdotal and based on riding mostly in totally dark rural areas. It does not apply to brightly illuminated London where camouflage clothes are better to be seen, helmets kill small children and brakes are instruments of the anti-christ.
POTD
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My own experience of driving a car around here is that I see "Scotchlite" reflected in my headlights from further away than some of the inadequate rear lights in use.
+1
But a Superflash is visible in daylight from 200 metres away
Caught someone at night with two on their bike and it was "nuclear"
I would assume the same goes for any of the current 1/2 W rear lights
So if you ride a BSO with no lights or a £2.99 set from Tescos then Scotchlite is better
Most audax riders have spent more than £10 on their rear light(s) so the lights beat the reflectives
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(I saw a guy the other day whose rear mudguard had been lined with an unbelievably bright reflective material, but that wouldn't be legal for all that the surface area was larger than many high-viz tops).
I have also done this (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v223/Minitar1/Dg/?action=view¤t=DR1-1.jpg). I was unaware it was illegal though?
Sloppy language by EF:
I assume he meant your reflective would not be sufficient to make you and your bike legal i.e. it wouldn't match the EN-whatevers.
Thanks - that is precisely what I meant.
The irony is that of two riders, the one with the larger area of reflective material (and also the one who can't lose it, forget to put it on, or whatever) might get a ticket, while the one who didn't bother with any of that but has a small amount of reflective on a jacket would be fine.
AFAIK the lower EN standard requires 25 square cm of reflectives. Realistically you could match this with a 5cm strip on a mudguard, and all the rest is pure bonus. Now as it happens, I think somebody will either be looking out of the front of their car, in which case they'll see you just fine, or they won't be, and then it doesn't matter what you've done. But, things do always get up my nose when they make no sense.
For whatever it's worth, I've ridden extensively from Edinburgh to Dunfermline and back (including the A90, immediately after the cycle ban comes off), as I worked out there for three years. For most of that time I didn't have anything except lights and I have to say, the problems only started once I got into the streetlit areas (where people could see me more easily?) - out on the open road it was pure joy, even though it was rush hour I can't really remember *any* close passes at night.
At PBP you'd especially anticipate that drivers might notice bikes, given that there are about 5,000 of them on the road.
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They can be looking straight at you, you can be wearing hi-vis, in broad clear-blue-sky sunshine, and they still won't give you space (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=140C2FsB2J4).
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(I saw a guy the other day whose rear mudguard had been lined with an unbelievably bright reflective material, but that wouldn't be legal for all that the surface area was larger than many high-viz tops).
I have also done this (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v223/Minitar1/Dg/?action=view¤t=DR1-1.jpg). I was unaware it was illegal though?
Sloppy language by EF:
I assume he meant your reflective would not be sufficient to make you and your bike legal i.e. it wouldn't match the EN-whatevers.
Thanks - that is precisely what I meant.
The irony is that of two riders, the one with the larger area of reflective material (and also the one who can't lose it, forget to put it on, or whatever) might get a ticket, while the one who didn't bother with any of that but has a small amount of reflective on a jacket would be fine.
AFAIK the lower EN standard requires 25 square cm of reflectives. Realistically you could match this with a 5cm strip on a mudguard, and all the rest is pure bonus. Now as it happens, I think somebody will either be looking out of the front of their car, in which case they'll see you just fine, or they won't be, and then it doesn't matter what you've done. But, things do always get up my nose when they make no sense.
But a 5cm strip on a mudguard (like in that picture) isn't visible from all directions, which is part of the EN standards. It's not just 25 square cm of reflectives.
It's not just for people coming up behind you, it's for people coming up to junctions at side roads, infront of you and off to one side, etc.
Recumbents are a different matter as the PBP regulations say that they should just make suitable use of additional reflective material as any gilet/waistcoat would be obscured:-
"
If your reflective gear is obscured (perhaps because you are carrying a backpack or riding a recumbent) ensure you have additional reflective material to ensure you are visible
"
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But a 5cm strip on a mudguard (like in that picture) isn't visible from all directions, which is part of the EN standards. It's not just 25 square cm of reflectives.
It's not just for people coming up behind you, it's for people coming up to junctions at side roads, infront of you and off to one side, etc.
The problem with this line of thought is that, for example, people coming up to junctions from side-roads will not hit you with their headlights until you are literally in front of them (and nobody coming up to a junction is looking there, rather they look to either side where they expect to see traffic). Of course, that's simply a fundamental problem with all reflectives, not with their position on bike/body, and a good illustration of why lights are more important.
I was once almost caught out by a rider who had pretty much a full luminous body suit on while driving round a right-hand bend. Of course my headlights were hitting the verge, and there was nothing to indicate he was there at all except the faintest of bobby-dodger red LEDs. Sure enough, when I straightened up he blazed into life like a lighthouse. Good job I wasn't doing 60mph though :sick:
Anyway, to get back to the point at hand, reflectives on the mudguard are at the perfect height and also maximally visible to the traffic which is most likely to nail you. After all, on an open road ultra-distance ride, probably 99% of vehicles interacting with you are following on, and I'd have thought over 99% of accidents too (there can't be too many junction crashes or head-ons at night when your lights are so obvious).
That's not an argument against adding extra reflectives or extra lights, because you never know when you might be the one to get tangled in a freak incident, and it's quite understandable that people who're afraid want to do anything to feel more comfortable. But I think it probably is an argument against *mandating* extra stuff that isn't likely to make any difference.
Recumbents are a different matter as the PBP regulations say that they should just make suitable use of additional reflective material as any gilet/waistcoat would be obscured:-
"
If your reflective gear is obscured (perhaps because you are carrying a backpack or riding a recumbent) ensure you have additional reflective material to ensure you are visible
"
Yes, but the downside is that this is subjective again. You chaps can simply provide a basic EN-compliant vest and there's no way they can refuse - after all, it's specified in their own law.
As soon as you have a subjective value it becomes troublesome - remember that some people would argue that no amount of reflectives make a recumbent visible. Come to Edinburgh and go for a test ride and you'll find a neverending stream of snivellers to tell you so (curiously, never motorists though - only cyclists have trouble with it).
And that's the thin end of the wedge, next you're onto the stupid flags, and it all gets a bit awkward when you point out that if you can ride through capital city winter rush hour without any trouble, you probably don't need to take emergency precautions to ride on a quiet back road, and yes, you're considerably higher than the lane markings we're navigating by...
bah! :facepalm: </rant>
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...I'd have thought over 99% of accidents too (there can't be too many junction crashes or head-ons at night when your lights are so obvious).
Check the actual numbers, you'll be quite surprised.
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You're confusing an discussion about compliance with PBP rules and EN standards with an argument about whether compliance with the standards will actually make anyone any safer.
I'm only interested in the former (here). If you want a discussion on the latter then I'd start a thread outside of the PBP sub-forum.
For an upright bike you can glue whatever you like to your bike but they're going to ask to see your EN 471/whatever-the-other-one-was certified gilet/waistcoat.
For a recumbent you're right, it'll be subjective. Good luck, but sticking an area of 25cm2 of stuff to your bike, visible only from a small range of angles from the rear, and claiming it's broadly equivalent to EN471 is unlikely to satisfy them.
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My inner pessimist says that most will have nasty coatings that make post-production printing impossible expensive.
You can screenprint on to almost anything.
Can you conjure up a per-unit cost of printing the AUK logo (in readable size) on $random-garment ?!? Say 10-50 units?
about £15 per screen setup (one screen per colour), then £2 - £3 per pull depending on no of colours again.
so 1 colour on 30 would be £15 for the screen + £60 = £75/30=£2.50 each plus the cost of the garment
so 2 colours on 30 would be £30 fro 2 screens + £75 = £75/30=£3.50 each plus the cost of the garment
you get the idea
roughly roughly roughly.
alternatively go to an Art College and chip a student in Printmaking a few quid (better than a student get a technician)
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Anyway, back to reflectives...
Based on my memory of the description I saw of the various standards I'd say "no" given that the standards say that the retro-reflective bands have to continue around the whole body, so a vest like that probably won't do.
(That rema link below says "bands encircling the torso".)
Interestingly enough, the FFCT gilet (http://www.ffct.org/boutique/securite/visioplus.jpg) that was linked earlier on this thread doesn't have bands encircling the body.
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...I'd have thought over 99% of accidents too (there can't be too many junction crashes or head-ons at night when your lights are so obvious).
Check the actual numbers, you'll be quite surprised.
Don't want to drag the topic aside any further.. But, if you can find stats anywhere which give you a breakdown of car movement for crashes on rural roads at night, I'd be interested to see it.
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Does anyone actually have copies of the standards 1150 or 471?
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Does anyone actually have copies of the standards 1150 or 471?
*** BS charge to get them, which is why I don't.
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I'm going to go and have a blether at the library today to see if they can help. I know some libraries have subscriptions to the online service.
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Does anyone actually have copies of the standards 1150 or 471?
*** BS charge to get them, which is why I don't.
That's not why I don't.
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Does anyone actually have copies of the standards 1150 or 471?
I've got access to the British Standards database (BSOL) via the OU but I can't give anyone a copy of any of it:-
"I understand that content may not be forwarded on to non authorised users."
Downloaded them both. EN1150 is only 12 pages, EN471 is 30 pages.
What do you want to know?
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Other than actual volume of retro-reflective material, I'm just wondering, in loose terms, what other properties have to be met and how you go about approved to put the certification label on a garment.
It's a bit of catch 22 situation of trying to work out whether the creating a suitable alternative is acheivable in order to make it worth purchasing the standard in the first place.
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More than you can imagine, i.e.
"
5.2.2 Colour for background and combined performance material after xenon test
The colour after exposure shall be within the areas defined by coordinates given in the relevant Table 2. The luminance factor shall be not less than the values given in Table 2. The light fastness of the test sample shall be determined in accordance with EN 20105-B02. Exposure shall continue until the blue scale control standard number 4 has changed to step 4 of the grey scale.
"
There are sections for:-
Minimum areas of exposed material (based on the height of the garment)
Maximum area sizes of background material
Background material must meet all requirements of EN340.
Background material colours from a certain list.
The above mentioned 'xenon test'
Colour fastness of material
Photometric and physical performance requirements for the retroreflective material and combined performance material
Minimum coefficient of retroreflection for retroreflective material
Retroreflective performance requirements after test exposure
The tests are "abraison", "flexing", "folding at cold temperatures", "temperature variation", "washing", "dry cleaning" and "influence of rainfall". All defined later on in the standard.
It's rammed full of stuff like:-
"
The coefficient of retroreflection R' for retroreflective material shall exceed 100 cd lx-1 m-2 measured at observation angle 12' and entrance angle 5o.
"
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Stuff like that is what made Britain great.
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Bloody engineers.
I probably shouldn't say that, seeing as my girlfriend is an engineer.
Ah what the heck, bloody engineers.
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Other than actual volume of retro-reflective material, I'm just wondering, in loose terms, what other properties have to be met and how you go about approved to put the certification label on a garment.
It's a bit of catch 22 situation of trying to work out whether the creating a suitable alternative is acheivable in order to make it worth purchasing the standard in the first place.
Let me try to help you.
What alternative are you looking to create (that doesn't exist in the market place)?
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Spoke reflectors?
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Other than actual volume of retro-reflective material, I'm just wondering, in loose terms, what other properties have to be met and how you go about approved to put the certification label on a garment.
It's a bit of catch 22 situation of trying to work out whether the creating a suitable alternative is acheivable in order to make it worth purchasing the standard in the first place.
The cost of getting a design/prototype certificatied would be huge. In the order of thousands probably.
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Other than actual volume of retro-reflective material, I'm just wondering, in loose terms, what other properties have to be met and how you go about approved to put the certification label on a garment.
It's a bit of catch 22 situation of trying to work out whether the creating a suitable alternative is acheivable in order to make it worth purchasing the standard in the first place.
Let me try to help you.
What alternative are you looking to create (that doesn't exist in the market place)?
Not surprisingly, a lot of riders would like to carry on wearing the same jerseys/jackets they use for 1000s of km a year (without being hit by motorists who didn't actually see them early enough) on PBP.
This seems rather like the h****t debate: some users are convinced that they are no trouble & no inconvenience whatsoever. Seems a bit blinkered to me.
I'm resigned to using something that's already certified, and am now just considering which will be the least hassle.
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It won't be possible to get anything certified. The cost would be immense (I doubt you could do it for mere thousands).
Of course, there's nothing stopping anyone from cutting labels off existing garments and transferring them, but it seems unlikely that whatever you're putting them on would look remotely the part, if it was significantly better than existing off-the-shelf garments anyway.
If I can't get hold of one of those gilets, a mesh vest to EN1150 (http://www.rideaway.co.uk/HYVIZ-ADJUSTABLE-MESH-WAISTCOAT/default.aspx?var=149248&utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=purenet_feed), carefully taken in to hug the torso and minimise cross-section is what I'm going for.
You can get the one linked above in pink. I always think if you're going to look daft you should go all the way!
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Well that was a bust.
I was hoping that it would be possible to create something that used the aforementioned Lumatwill from Dashing Tweeds. Alas there seems to be no escaping the requirement for a flourescent background colour to a garment. I can't see that happening with tweed.
The good news is that you can just blag a librarian to printing this stuff for you at a price far less than the cost of buying it from source. This is under the proviso that you don't use it for commercial interests, which I won't. Mostly because I can't.
I'm now down to hoping that a Sam Browne will remain acceptable to the PBP authorities.
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This seems rather like the h****t debate: some users are convinced that they are no trouble & no inconvenience whatsoever. Seems a bit blinkered to me.
I'm resigned to using something that's already certified, and am now just considering which will be the least hassle.
I'm now intrigued by what the h****t debate is.
Now that I've exhausted all reasonable options, I too am resigned to selecting from the existing market. Just going to find the most modest product that I can.
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I'm now down to hoping that a Sam Browne will remain acceptable to the PBP authorities.
Unlikely (isn't there something on the PBP website rejecting Sam Browne belts?) but I also would prefer to stick with a Sam Browne belt.
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Doubt it, the reflective vest requirement isn't a PBP requirement, it's a requirement of French law when cycling outside of built up areas at night.
The PBP pages say this:
Paris-Brest-Paris 2011 (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/index2.php?lang=en&cat=randonnee&page=reglement)
"A reflective vest or crossbelt or reflective garment MUST be worn when riding at night (this equiment must be presented at the cycle check)."
but I think that's just copied from 2007 and they haven't updated it based on the new law.
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I was expecting that. I think they're due to update in January, after the official presentation. I'll wait until after than before I make a decision on what to wear.
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From the brochure http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/en/download/PLAQUETTE-GB.pdf
"According to French law, a reflective vest is mandatory when riding at night. Alternatives like a reflective sash or belt are not acceptable as substitutes. Reflective ankle bands are recommended as an additional safety feature"
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From the brochure http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/en/download/PLAQUETTE-GB.pdf
"According to French law, a reflective vest is mandatory when riding at night. Alternatives like a reflective sash or belt are not acceptable as substitutes. Reflective ankle bands are recommended as an additional safety feature"
I've heard if you just dip your entire body in luminous paint, that's it - you're completely safe.
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Don't you have to leave a small gap in the paint just above you backside? So you skin can still breathe? Or is that just an
Goldfinger urban legend.
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Urban myths for urban bikers (at least if you believe some the websites I've visited recently - purely for research purposes of course)
But ..... Gold lame boob tubes are not acceptable AFAIK - however tightly stretched,
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Hummers will be diappointed.
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I'm not sure whether the reflective bibs modelled by these ladies of Spain (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/25/spanish-prostitutes-yellow-bibs-fines) meet the required Euronorm and would satisfy the French authorities ;)
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Surely this fits the bill, not keen on them myself, Do they alert the old dears or are you a target for w*nkers.
Madison Hi Viz en471
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Do you mean this (http://www.shopzilla.co.uk/8B--Cycling_Apparel_-_cat_id--100001030__keyword--madison+hi+viz+en471+l/xl+reflective+vest)?
It does but the point is that a number of us want to take the skimpiest, most lightweight and packable piece of mesh that we can get away with, which that isn't. We may alternatively be prepared to go for a proper cycling gilet that complies, but we don't want to spend nearly £20 on a dustman's garment that is flappy when being worn and relatively bulky when stowed in a saddlebag.
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This Gilet looks quite good plus GILET EN CONFORMITE AVEC LA NORME 1150 and this site will ship outside France Gilet SECURITE jaune sans manches - CYCLES ET SPORTS (http://www.cyclesetsports.com/veste-velo-homme/2042-gilet-jaune-de-securite-sans-manches.html)
Also there is a site that will ship that orange coloured 74 euro one for 9.95 euro postage to the UK GILET LS2 FLUO VISTA ORANGE [1031 -] 74.00€ Partycycle.com (http://www.partycycle.com/vest-fluo-vista-orange-p-1166.html)
I quite like the look of this Mavic one although it is spendy at 85 euros! M Gilet Vision Vest, Vestes - Rue du vélo, la boutique de vente en ligne d'accessoires vélo (http://www.rueduvelo.com/gilet-vision-vest-vestes-textile-38679-733-5-35.z.fr.htm#avis) but is it also available at CRC free postage Mavic Vision Vest Winter 2010 | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com (http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=43812)
I should add that I am in training for PBP .... in 2015!
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Do you mean this (http://www.shopzilla.co.uk/8B--Cycling_Apparel_-_cat_id--100001030__keyword--madison+hi+viz+en471+l/xl+reflective+vest)?
It does but the point is that a number of us want to take the skimpiest, most lightweight and packable piece of mesh that we can get away with, which that isn't. We may alternatively be prepared to go for a proper cycling gilet that complies, but we don't want to spend nearly £20 on a dustman's garment that is flappy when being worn and relatively bulky when stowed in a saddlebag.
Pick two:-
a) Inexpensive
b) lightweight/easy-to-stow/not-flappy
c) EN standards compliant
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If the pound shop doesn't throw up anything good, I may well go with one of these Polaris gilets (http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/polaris-mens-rbs-cycling-gilet-p103579). £15 for what looks like a decent gilet doesn't seem bad.
Do you mean this (http://www.shopzilla.co.uk/8B--Cycling_Apparel_-_cat_id--100001030__keyword--madison+hi+viz+en471+l/xl+reflective+vest)?
It does but the point is that a number of us want to take the skimpiest, most lightweight and packable piece of mesh that we can get away with, which that isn't. We may alternatively be prepared to go for a proper cycling gilet that complies, but we don't want to spend nearly £20 on a dustman's garment that is flappy when being worn and relatively bulky when stowed in a saddlebag.
Pick two:-
a) Inexpensive
b) lightweight/easy-to-stow/not-flappy
c) EN standards compliant
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If the pound shop doesn't throw up anything good, I may well go with one of these Polaris gilets (http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/polaris-mens-rbs-cycling-gilet-p103579). £15 for what looks like a decent gilet doesn't seem bad.
Exactly, that satisfies (a) and (b) nicely, but having read the EN1170 and EN471 standards I'd be very surprised if that is actually compliant. What will happen at PBP if you turn up with a non-compliant gilet is anyone's guess.
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I have made enquiry about this, also from Polaris-
http://www.polaris-apparel.co.uk//category-7268/product-20291//NiteViz-Tabbard,-Small.html
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For those that are bored enough to be interested in French laws:
Code de la route : Cyclistes et gilets de haute visibilité - Blog du code et de la sécurité routière (http://www.codeclic.com/blog-code-de-la-route/index.php?post/2009/01/22/Code-de-la-route-cyclistes-gilets-haute-visibilite)
Basically anything that says EN1170 or EN471 will do.
For the gendarme to check the label you would have to try really hard, i guess it is a bit like the kitemark on lights in the UK!!!
May be we need an AUK award for the first to achieve this!
Edit: For those who need a reason to worry pedal reflectors are compulsory in France. You are probably more likely to get done for this than for a non certified High viz!
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Edit: For those who need a reason to worry pedal reflectors are compulsory in France. You are probably more likely to get done for this than for a non certified High viz!
As they are in the UK. Not many people know that.
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What's the advice for clipless riders then. Splash of scotchtape and extra in the bag incase it deteriorates?
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It's also an offence if your pedal reflectors are obscured at any point, for example if you have panniers fitted.
You can get legal reflectors for some types of clipless pedal, but 99.9% of clipless riders are committing an offence after lighting up time (irrespective of whether you've got EN471 motorway workman trousers on or not).
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I'll be using my LEL ankle straps (and no panniers). The same type of motion and just as visible (if not more) than pedal reflectors and showing an attempt to comply with the spirit of the law.
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Do you mean this (http://www.shopzilla.co.uk/8B--Cycling_Apparel_-_cat_id--100001030__keyword--madison+hi+viz+en471+l/xl+reflective+vest)?
It does but the point is that a number of us want to take the skimpiest, most lightweight and packable piece of mesh that we can get away with, which that isn't. We may alternatively be prepared to go for a proper cycling gilet that complies, but we don't want to spend nearly £20 on a dustman's garment that is flappy when being worn and relatively bulky when stowed in a saddlebag.
I was trying to be helpful, i have ordered one of these and can comment further when it arrives. i was taken in by
Features:
A cycle specific hi-viz waistcoat that meets and exceeds EN471, class 1, level 1
EN471 is the highest safety standard for reflective clothing
Bright yellow and orange material with reflective silver stripes
Soft-touch material and an easy-to-use zip
Extended tail for extra visibility when riding
LED light loop
I have an easily stowable lightweight one but it doesn't comply.
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It's also an offence if your pedal reflectors are obscured at any point, for example if you have panniers fitted.
Or are riding on certain types of lying-down-stylee machinery.
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Hold on, are you seriously telling me that recumbents are illegal in France?
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At night your cycle MUST have white front and red rear lights lit. It MUST also be fitted with a red rear reflector (and amber pedal reflectors, if manufactured after 1/10/85).
From the Highway Code.
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Hold on, are you seriously telling me that recumbents are illegal in France?
No, a recumbent isn't illegal in France, nor is one illegal in the UK.
But there seems to be no way to legally ride one in the UK after dark and comply with the requirements for visible pedal reflectors as laid down (no pun intended) by the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/20/made).
I'm guessing the same is true in France.
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Hold on, are you seriously telling me that recumbents are illegal in France?
No, a recumbent isn't illegal in France, nor is one illegal in the UK.
But there seems to be no way to legally ride one in the UK after dark and comply with the requirements for visible pedal reflectors as laid down (no pun intended) by the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/20/made).
I'm guessing the same is true in France.
Obviously a system of mirrors should be employed.
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Hold on, are you seriously telling me that recumbents are illegal in France?
No, a recumbent isn't illegal in France, nor is one illegal in the UK.
But there seems to be no way to legally ride one in the UK after dark and comply with the requirements for visible pedal reflectors as laid down (no pun intended) by the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/20/made).
I'm guessing the same is true in France.
A few years ago I rode Windcheetah 002 back from a do at Bikefix after dark, legally, as it was built before 1985. The chain climbed into the back wheel outside Holloway prison which left Mr Larrington wearing said trike for a hat. TWFKAML was more concerned about the state of my jersey than the state of my sorely-abused bod - the jersey had been a crimbling-yule present from her family and Cost Money, whereas new husbands can be obtained for free from various charitable organisations, gigs, pubs, nightclubs, etc. etc..
Neither of my road-going recumbents has a legal reflector, but all rearward-facing bits of both are slathered with retro-reflective tape and/or stickers which stand out like a sore wossname. Only the most pedantic member of the five-oh would get a strop on if approaching it after dark. I've even got reflective tape on the underside (forward-facing bit) of the pedals...
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Just used the yahoo translater to translate the et apris bit
And after…? Beyond the port of your waistcoat high-visibility, your cycle must be provided with fires before and back and reflectors on the pedals, c' is obligatory. Think of replacing the lightings provided to l' purchase of your bicycle, those are often of poor quality. Lastly, it is strongly advised to carry a helmet in conformity with the standards of dryness
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I object to being asked to conform to any standard of dryness.
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Pick two:-
a) Inexpensive
b) lightweight/easy-to-stow/not-flappy
c) EN standards compliant
As mentioned before, our local Poundland gilets tick all 3 boxes.
And are almost invisible when wet.
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More worried about the pedal reflectors than dryness, mind you the way the health is going ;D
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Pick two:-
a) Inexpensive
b) lightweight/easy-to-stow/not-flappy
c) EN standards compliant
As mentioned before, our local Poundland gilets tick all 3 boxes.
And are almost invisible when wet.
Our <poundland equivalent> had something; the reflective bits would not be invisible (except in complete darkness). Frankie's may be different!
(didn't take it out of the packet, so it might have been flappy ;) )
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Yep, as with panniers it's illegal to ride a recumbent at night. Still, I view this more in the same way as it's illegal to ride with a light that is not kite-marked - it's pretty much irrelevant.
If I had anything less than the ridiculous amount of space I get when I ride at night, it might be another matter. But as it is, even at night the forcefield gives some benefit...
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More worried about the pedal reflectors than dryness, mind you the way the health is going ;D
So far I've ridden three without pedal reflectors - if that helps.
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Do you mean this (http://www.shopzilla.co.uk/8B--Cycling_Apparel_-_cat_id--100001030__keyword--madison+hi+viz+en471+l/xl+reflective+vest)?
It does but the point is that a number of us want to take the skimpiest, most lightweight and packable piece of mesh that we can get away with, which that isn't. We may alternatively be prepared to go for a proper cycling gilet that complies, but we don't want to spend nearly £20 on a dustman's garment that is flappy when being worn and relatively bulky when stowed in a saddlebag.
I was trying to be helpful, i have ordered one of these and can comment further when it arrives. i was taken in by
Features:
A cycle specific hi-viz waistcoat that meets and exceeds EN471, class 1, level 1
EN471 is the highest safety standard for reflective clothing
Bright yellow and orange material with reflective silver stripes
Soft-touch material and an easy-to-use zip
Extended tail for extra visibility when riding
LED light loop
I have an easily stowable lightweight one but it doesn't comply.
It arrived and will soon be on its way back. Stitching issue, i always get the duff one l/Xl also too big for me. Larger bands so not very flexible and expect many will suffer from this. Cyclists flap and extra vision stuff good idea. If it fitted well it would do the job but not for me unless nothing better transpires. 2011 could well look like a binmens conference.
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2011 could well look like a binmens conference.
fortunately all that will show up in the photos is reflections from the Hi-Viz (just like previous years, only more so).
So outsiders will never be exposed to the full horror !!!
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2011 could well look like a binmens conference.
fortunately all that will show up in the photos is reflections from the Hi-Viz (just like previous years, only more so).
So outsiders will never be exposed to the full horror !!!
Not at all. Just take a DSLR and some fast lenses.
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<Londoncentric point>
A fellow Barnet Cyclist was wearing a 'good going' vest at our meeting a couple of days ago. It seemed lightweight and meshy.
I checked; it is certified and has the requisite label.
I think these were free goodies at Bike week a while back...
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More worried about the pedal reflectors than dryness, mind you the way the health is going ;D
So far I've ridden three without pedal reflectors - if that helps.
This was the spirit of my remark. I would be surprised if they check the labels. If they do -assuming I can't find a suitable one with a label - I will show them a cheap one from a service station with label and wear something sensible (ie high viz and breathable) during the event.
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You aren't sneaky enough. If your good one looks the part but isn't approved, then snip the label out of a cheap one and sew it in (using a sewing machine so it looks the part, rather than hand sewing).
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I'm really disappointed in you lot. We have still only managed to talk about PBP reflective gear for 15 pages. I won't be happy until we get to at least 30. ;)
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I'm really disappointed in you lot. We have still only managed to talk about PBP reflective gear for 15 pages. I won't be happy until we get to at least 30. ;)
I did try hard to introduce pedal reflectors to boost the count but with moderate success.
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Relax. Audax is about pacing yourself - it's 2 months before even the quallies start.
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I'm really disappointed in you lot. We have still only managed to talk about PBP reflective gear for 15 pages. I won't be happy until we get to at least 30. ;)
The law says that you must wear a gilet with the necessary reflex-reflective bits.
Does that mean that, if you have a jacket (with sleeves) that otherwise meets the requirements, you have to wear a suitable gilet (defined as sleeveless) over the top to comply with said law?
Fetches coat... and gilet
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There is a Mavic jacket that complies itself so you wouldn't need a gilet at all. This wouldnt work if it became too hot to wear it though presumably.
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Bear in mind that this is an "hours of darkness" thing - personally I end up wearing more at night anyway, so an extra layer isn't the disaster it would be if you had to wear it at noon.
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Bear in mind that this is an "hours of darkness" thing - personally I end up wearing more at night anyway, so an extra layer isn't the disaster it would be if you had to wear it at noon.
That's very true, but there are few August nights where I'd want a waterproof jacket on at dusk (unless it's already chucking it down).
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With any luck I might have a few tabards, EN compliant, lightweight mesh, for sale at a reasonable price, shortly.
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There is a Mavic jacket that complies itself so you wouldn't need a gilet at all.
That's the whole point of the question.
Larousse defines gilet as:
Veste sans manches.
The French law says "gilet", so a jacket wouldn't comply because, having sleeves, it's not a gilet.
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Bear in mind that this is an "hours of darkness" thing -
and in poor visibility.
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There is a Mavic jacket that complies itself so you wouldn't need a gilet at all.
That's the whole point of the question.
Larousse defines gilet as:
Veste sans manches.
The French law says "gilet", so a jacket wouldn't comply because, having sleeves, it's not a gilet.
A jacket with sleeves would comply with EN471 Class 3, without sleeves Class 2. You can wear Hi Vis that exceeds the requirement but not Hi Vis which does not reach it.
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But it still wouldn't meet the requirement that it has to be a gilet, surely?
This is like the debate over ankle reflectors. Yes, they may be brighter than a pedal reflector, but they aren't /actually/ pedal reflectors...
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There is then the question of whether anyone will stop you for wearing a jacket instead of a gilet, rather than it being illegal for some other reason. If anyone's really worried about that happening, I'll bet them our post-PBP stashes of Euros that nobody will hand them a time penalty.
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I am glad that someone else brought up the wearing of reflective anklets. I was issued with these on LEL two years ago and was completely wowed by them.
Are these going to be a valid option to having to wear reflective vests and helmets on PBP?
Thanks in advance.
H
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I am glad that someone else brought up the wearing of reflective anklets. I was issued with these on LEL two years ago and was completely wowed by them.
Are these going to be a valid option to having to wear reflective vests and helmets on PBP?
Only if you also wear the reflective earplugs from LEL.
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With any luck I might have a few tabards, EN compliant, lightweight mesh, for sale at a reasonable price, shortly.
Yes please
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Are these going to be a valid option to having to wear reflective vests and helmets on PBP?
Thanks in advance.
H
now there's a thought
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Respro Nightsight Reflective Helmet Band-Chequered: Amazon.co.uk: Sports & Leisure (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Respro-Nightsight-Reflective-Helmet-Band-Chequered/dp/B002JDV1GI)
Ah, here's the one I was looking for: PROVIZ Cycle Helmets and Accessories (http://www.proviz.co.uk/)
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Respro Nightsight Reflective Helmet Band-Chequered: Amazon.co.uk: Sports & Leisure (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Respro-Nightsight-Reflective-Helmet-Band-Chequered/dp/B002JDV1GI)
Ah, here's the one I was looking for: PROVIZ Cycle Helmets and Accessories (http://www.proviz.co.uk/)
You should make that your sig:
" harnessing the popular fluorescent yellow "
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With any luck I might have a few tabards, EN compliant, lightweight mesh, for sale at a reasonable price, shortly.
Yes please
Right, got them. They're this type (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B002JDN5IU/ref=asc_df_B002JDN5IU1202503?ie=UTF8&condition=new&tag=dealtimecouk-sports-mp-delta-21&creative=22278&creativeASIN=B002JDN5IU&linkCode=asm). EN471. Small, medium or large. Quite a close weave mesh, vecro closure one side. £5.00 plus postage.
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I've got the L2S gilet now, the one I linked to, and have worn it a few times. I can right some thoughts should anyone be interested.
Bottom line; is it worth the full €80? No, not imho... unless you've got that kind of money to spare. It functions as a gilet and has the required EN approval, but I personally doubt it's claims of breathability and my guess is it'd be a tad warm in summer. It is however well made and well designed.
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With any luck I might have a few tabards, EN compliant, lightweight mesh, for sale at a reasonable price, shortly.
Yes please
Right, got them. They're this type (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B002JDN5IU/ref=asc_df_B002JDN5IU1202503?ie=UTF8&condition=new&tag=dealtimecouk-sports-mp-delta-21&creative=22278&creativeASIN=B002JDN5IU&linkCode=asm). EN471. Small, medium or large. Quite a close weave mesh, vecro closure one side. £5.00 plus postage.
Yes please!
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With any luck I might have a few tabards, EN compliant, lightweight mesh, for sale at a reasonable price, shortly.
Yes please
Right, got them. They're this type (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B002JDN5IU/ref=asc_df_B002JDN5IU1202503?ie=UTF8&condition=new&tag=dealtimecouk-sports-mp-delta-21&creative=22278&creativeASIN=B002JDN5IU&linkCode=asm). EN471. Small, medium or large. Quite a close weave mesh, vecro closure one side. £5.00 plus postage.
Hold on.
That's a tabbard.
What is the difference between a tabbard and a gilet?
H
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A tabard is an over the head jobbie, a gilet has fastening at the front like a waistcoat.
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With any luck I might have a few tabards, EN compliant, lightweight mesh, for sale at a reasonable price, shortly.
Yes please
I'd better put something more detailed under For Sale...and sort out what the postage will cost.
Right, got them. They're this type (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B002JDN5IU/ref=asc_df_B002JDN5IU1202503?ie=UTF8&condition=new&tag=dealtimecouk-sports-mp-delta-21&creative=22278&creativeASIN=B002JDN5IU&linkCode=asm). EN471. Small, medium or large. Quite a close weave mesh, vecro closure one side. £5.00 plus postage.
Yes please!
I'd better put something more detailed under For Sale...and sort out what the postage will cost.
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iam a bit worried,in fact its keeping me awake at night.will a orange vest be ok or should it be yellow?
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iam a bit worried,in fact its keeping me awake at night.will a orange vest be ok or should it be yellow?
Yes
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Also interested in the tabbard, what would be the international shipping?
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iam a bit worried,in fact its keeping me awake at night.will a orange vest be ok or should it be yellow?
Neither. Postbox red, I'd have thought...
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Also interested in the tabbard, what would be the international shipping?
Postage £1.85 to the Nederlands, so call it £7 total. That might make it more expensive for you than off the internet.
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Surely those wearing a tabbard will be flying in the face of l'instruction from ACP on wearing a gillet?
Isn't that a flagrant flouncing of the rules?
H
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Surely those wearing a tabbard will be flying in the face of l'instruction from ACP on wearing a gillet?
Isn't that a flagrant flouncing of the rules?
H
I might draw a little zip in felt pen up the front.
Oh, the rebelliousness!
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Having just watched some Kraftwerk whilst riding the rollers, I think I'd prefer some Aero Dynamik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SjRld0nyiA) reflectives. Unfortunately, even though they are visible from all sides they are probably not EN471 compliant :(
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Surely those wearing a tabbard will be flying in the face of l'instruction from ACP on wearing a gillet?
Isn't that a flagrant flouncing of the rules?
H
I might draw a little zip in felt pen up the front.
Oh, the rebelliousness!
I'm starting to think that people may not be taking this thread seriously.
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Hi
The law here says exactly how the reflective vest must be. If you have found the one that drivers must carry, that's what you need as a cyclist. You must wear it at night outside built-up areas. You can buy them for a few euros at any supermarket and many big service stations.
It is unlikely the police would stop you if you were wearing a reflective vest of a different design. But the safety controllers at the start of PBP could possibly not allow you to start, because to allow you to start would be tantamount to suggesting you broke the law.
bonne route à tous et à toutes
french boy
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Thank you French Boy but are you suggesting we can only buy these vests in France?
H
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Thank you French Boy but are you suggesting we can only buy these vests in France?
H
Hi Hummers
Sadly I can't tell you if you can buy them in Britain. I don't live there. I am indeed a French Boy! But I doubt that our leaders in Paris, for all their faults, were likely to insist on a reflective vest that until then had never been made. So perhaps, yes, you can buy one in Britain. But the truth is that I don't know.
Sorry.
french boy
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Thank you French Boy but are you suggesting we can only buy these vests in France?
H
Hi Hummers
Sadly I can't tell you if you can buy them in Britain. I don't live there. I am indeed a French Boy! But I doubt that our leaders in Paris, for all their faults, were likely to insist on a reflective vest that until then had never been made. So perhaps, yes, you can buy one in Britain. But the truth is that I don't know.
Sorry.
french boy
Merci, mon frere en bras - sans bras quand on apport un gilet.
Naturellement.
I can't help thinking that ACP have missed a trick here. Thay could have cleaned up with an ACP approved reflective vest emblazened with PBP logos and stuff.
H
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Merci, mon frere en bras - sans bras quand on apport un gilet.
[/quote]
Tu roules sans bras? Ca, c'est impressionant! Ou veux-tu dire « sans manches » ?!
bonne route
french boy
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Thank you French Boy but are you suggesting we can only buy these vests in France?
H
Hi Hummers
Sadly I can't tell you if you can buy them in Britain. I don't live there. I am indeed a French Boy! But I doubt that our leaders in Paris, for all their faults, were likely to insist on a reflective vest that until then had never been made. So perhaps, yes, you can buy one in Britain. But the truth is that I don't know.
Sorry.
french boy
Merci, mon frere en bras - sans bras quand on apport un gilet.
Naturellement.
H
I think that the honourable resident of Hampshire got "bras" and "sans bras" confused with "les papa à poux pas papous" and "les papas papous pas à poux". I must admit that this gallic concept of classifying people depending on their (or absence of) papuan origin, their breeder status and whether their scalp is colonised by lice may seem gratuitous. Nevertheless I would encourage the ambitious forummer to grasp this very important concept; some historians argue that it played a major role in the making of a nation populated by happy cheese eating strike mongers. As most inhabitants of this garlic perfumed wonderland know, characterising garments or even people by the absence of arms is counter-productive and can only lead to sterile debates. Those who need convincing may read Jean Paul Sartre treaty on arms existentialism.
In case a rider were to find himself engaged with an official ACP controller debating over the counter-productiveness of arms for riding a bicycle, my advice would be to remind him the fundamental philosophical issue mentioned above. Assuming your debating skills are up to scratch, he should shrug shoulders and let you proceed to the start. I must warn the unwary reader that the concept explained above is so powerful that its abuse may lead to the local authorities depriving you of your freedom, they may argue looniness but really they would just be trying to preserve the established order.
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It's a shame we only skirt Laval.
La cavale de Laval avala l'eau du lac, l'eau du lac lava la cavale de Laval.
I wonder if any aristocrats will ride, the 2007 rain may have put them off.
Les chaussettes de l'archiduchesse sont elles sèches, archi-sèches
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Mais moi, j'adore les gonzesses « sans bras »: blague bilingue!
french boy
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Merci, mon frere en bras - sans bras quand on apport un gilet.
Tu roules sans bras? Ca, c'est impressionant! Ou veux-tu dire « sans manches » ?!
bonne route
french boy
Rouler sans bras? Pah! C'n'est rien. Rouler sans jambes, ça, c'est impressionnant! ;)
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do not worry if your vest fails the bike check,you will be pointed to the stand selling the right ones.
french ctc stand if i am right.
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Mais moi, j'adore les gonzesses « sans bras »: blague bilingue!
HOU la!!! Mais oui, n’oublie pas les jolies fesses! Gilet ou sans gilet!!
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Mais moi, j'adore les gonzesses « sans bras »: blague bilingue!
HOU la!!! Mais oui, n’oublie pas les jolies fesses! Gilet ou sans gilet!!
YouTube
- Quelle Jolies Fesses.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O6QE20TXCI)
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Merci, mon frere en bras - sans bras quand on apport un gilet.
Tu roules sans bras? Ca, c'est impressionant! Ou veux-tu dire « sans manches » ?!
bonne route
french boy
[/quote]
Zut alors!
Mais oui, sans manches.
H
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I've just received the latest CTC Cycle Clips.
It looks like Hampshire Police are doling out free gilets. The pattern of reflective strips suggests these my well be EN471 compliant.
Can any Hampshire AUK investigate?
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I've just received the latest CTC Cycle Clips.
It looks like Hampshire Police are doling out free gilets. The pattern of reflective strips suggests these my well be EN471 compliant.
Can any Hampshire AUK investigate?
I have some contacts within Hants Police. I'll see what I can discover...
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There is a possibility that the photo used in Cycle Clips was a stock photo, rather than anything handed out.
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I've just received the latest CTC Cycle Clips.
It looks like Hampshire Police are doling out free gilets. The pattern of reflective strips suggests these my well be EN471 compliant.
Can any Hampshire AUK investigate?
I have some contacts within Hants Police. I'll see what I can discover...
Thanks to HellyMedic for the info. It appears that this was a local initiative restricted to the New Forest as none of my contacts, who are all in the east of the county, has heard of it.
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Shame.
H
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Zoom... passengers in a car don't have to have vests. Only the driver has to have one.
french boy
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There are many places here in France that sell legal-standard reflective vests by mail order. The first I happened to find, with a link to the very item, was
gilet sécurité pour velo - LeCyclo (http://www.lecyclo.com/produits/securite/signalisation/gilet-velo-reflechissant-de-securite.html?gclid=CObt25eEpqUCFV_92AodgR5eHA)
It's a very long address.
So is
signalisation et sécurité pour vélo - LeCyclo (http://www.lecyclo.com/produits/securite/signalisation.html?gclid=CObt25eEpqUCFV_92AodgR5eHA)
which is the page of the catalogue.
You can order on-line using a credit card. For those who haven't caught up yet, there is no import tax thanks to the EU.
Hope that helps.
french boy
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Rebonjour...
If that doesn't work (the address changed as it appeared on the screen), the address of the site generally is Accessoires pour améliorer la sécurité du vélo, le confort du cycliste et le transport des enfants - LeCyclo (http://www.lecyclo.com/)
Go to « Securité » and then scroll down.
french boy
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Just to point out that mine are EN471 and cheaper.
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I've got the vest , where can I get the underpants?
(http://www.theretroknittingcompany.co.uk/images/1Nov09/strutts9507a.jpg)
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more hi-viz than a school lollipop persons convention ...5 mins round the corner from chillmoister towers .......also handy for the steel toecap SPDs and industrial rubber safety track mits:
light me up like an M25 traffic Cone Please (http://www.sarabandonline.co.uk/gallery/categories.php?cat_id=13)
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I've got the vest , where can I get the underpants?
(http://www.theretroknittingcompany.co.uk/images/1Nov09/strutts9507a.jpg)
He's got them on the wrong way round, surely for a "bent" rider.
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It's a rechargable glowing hi-vis codpiece, it inspired Larry Blackmon for his red one in the video for 'Word Up'.
YouTube
- Broadcast Yourself.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZjAantupsA)
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On a slightly more serious note - Looked at the FFCT sit for the "gilet" in the security section.... There are two models 1 at 15 euros and one now reduced to 45 from 80. |Great I'll take the cheap one, process the on line purchase until prompted for the membership number....Ok I'll join .....Or maybe not 60Euros for the year (includes insurance)..... :-[
Maybe's I'll be using an Ian H one instead....
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Great I'll take the cheap one, process the on line purchase until prompted for the membership number.
If you, or anyone for that matter, wants one then pm me. I'm an FFCT member and will quite happily post stuff on to the UK.
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|Great I'll take the cheap one, process the on line purchase until prompted for the membership number....Ok I'll join .....Or maybe not 60Euros for the year (includes insurance).....
It is possible they might accept your CTC membership (if applicable) as an "associate member" . FFCT do accept CTC membership when booking for the Semaine Federal.
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I've trialled Ian's today and it is fine. Doesn't flap, and it is easy to put on.
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Great I'll take the cheap one, process the on line purchase until prompted for the membership number.
If you, or anyone for that matter, wants one then pm me. I'm an FFCT member and will quite happily post stuff on to the UK.
The FFCT seem to have suspended online orders, as of 1st Dec.
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I think I'll just get a big marker pen and draw a YACF logo on the back of mine, just for identification.
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I think I'll just get a big marker pen and draw a YACF logo on the back of mine, just for identification.
But which version? Christmas, Royal Wedding, "Classic", LHD .... too many decisions ... :(
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I see they are planning to sell the reflective Gilet with registration:
Paris-Brest-Paris 2011 (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/index2.php?lang=en&cat=preparation&page=habillement)
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I still have stocks of the mesh ones I found. EN471 compliant.
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I think I'll just get a big marker pen and draw a YACF logo on the back of mine, just for identification.
But which version? Christmas, Royal Wedding, "Classic", LHD .... too many decisions ... :(
CDC ?
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I see they are planning to sell the reflective Gilet with registration:
Paris-Brest-Paris 2011 (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/index2.php?lang=en&cat=preparation&page=habillement)
Unfortunately without the price....? (I think this has been noted on another thread...)
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I already own 2 Hi Viz mesh fasten-up-the-front vest objects*; one is an official Audax UK one from several years ago (possibly bought but not used for a previous PBP), and one I got from Lidl last year for a couple of quid for running in. It's a bit lighter and packs down to about 1/3 the size of the AUK one.
I'd assumed they weren't EN471-compliant but I just checked and they both are labelled as such, and are CE-marked accordingly.
*MV cunningly avoids admitting ownership of anything beginning with g
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*MV cunningly avoids admitting ownership of anything beginning with g
gears? ;)
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I see they are planning to sell the reflective Gilet with registration:
Paris-Brest-Paris 2011 (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/index2.php?lang=en&cat=preparation&page=habillement)
Unfortunately without the price....? (I think this has been noted on another thread...)
on the website it says that the price of an item is 30 euros. i take it it's the same price for the vest and jersey.
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[30 euros
That's a bit much - I can do five El Supremo events for that.
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It struck me as quite a bit for an item that does the same job as something that cost me a couple of quid at Lidl, I must say...
If you want a nice logo'd one then I suppose it's probably worth it, but I don't wear one often enough to be desirous of that myself.
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Good evening!
Regarding the following:
So if you have a Monday start, you don't pick up your stuff and get your bike inspected until Sunday?
Does the reflective gilet actually have to be labelled as conforming to EN471 or just meet the requirements?
Yes, on the bike inspection, etc. I assume so, on the gilet.
I just received an email from the ACP. The EN471 requirement had me slightly puzzled, as EN471 is designed to regulate the making of clothing for professional use. Visibility clothing for non-professional use is regulated by EN1150. I wrote an email to the ACP enquiring as to the actually required EN tag on your clothing, since the text of the respective French law will state no specific requirement. However, Mr. Faburel wrote an email back to me stating that EN1150 would be entirely sufficient. This is very good news as it means that my new Mavic Vision Vest will be allowed.
Ciao, Gernot
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Useful post
I was wondering about that very aspect when I was looking at the requirements today.
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the text of the respective French law will state no specific requirement. However, Mr. Faburel wrote an email back to me stating EN1150 would be entirely sufficient.
I'm sure that has been said here on the forum as well!
The law is imprecise and so can understandably cause confusion as to exactly what constitutes conforming hi-viz. Methinks the practical answer can only be 'one or the other' EN reg... even though I'm sure it's an anally retentive lawyers paradise!
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PBP is not just enforcing the law though - they required hi viz before it was a legal requirement, so concievably they might have asked for a higher standard than 1150 even though there's no legal basis for doing so.
After all, plenty of events in the UK mandate helmet use and/or hi-viz without any legal basis, don't they.
Glad to hear it isn't so. Now to find the least retina-searing 1150 jacket going...
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they required hi viz before it was a legal requirement
Did they? I didn't know that!
Clarification from the organiser as to their exact expectations is always a good thing, even at the risk of being a p-in-the-a. I certainly wouldn't want to fail pre-ride checks because my gilet was the wrong kind of high-viz!
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You're lucky - you just have to have a standard sort of bike that will get a standard sort of check!
Quite what they'll make of mine is another question entirely. For starters I'm switching to two front brakes (rim and disc) because there's not enough weight on the back one to make it a very effective stopper. I think for the purposes of inspection I'll have to fit a temporary back brake... :facepalm:
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Isn't two front brakes a standard configuration on trikes, so not that unusual for the PBP bike check?
Of course, fitting an additional back brake may be worth it just for your stress levels.
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If you want a nice logo'd one then I suppose it's probably worth it, but I don't wear one often enough to be desirous of that myself.
The logo'd one appeals since it's a nice memento. I'll take my Audax UK one just in case I don't like the logo'd one and leave it in the tent if I prefer the logo'd one.
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Isn't two front brakes a standard configuration on trikes, so not that unusual for the PBP bike check?
Of course, fitting an additional back brake may be worth it just for your stress levels.
In the UK recumbents are road legal with just one brake* but, of course, it's sensible to have more than one system on something which has such a high terminal velocity - hence putting the extra on the front, where it will actually do some good if I ever need to use it.
However in France, I understand each wheel much be equipped with a "braking device", on pain of an 11€ fine. Of course this does not apply to l'étranger during PBP**, but only legally. The PBP inspector can set whatever bar he wishes...
Anyway, this is all very OT and I apologise!
* because the seat height is less than 635mm (pedal cycles construction and use regulations 1983).
** as our bikes abroad are covered by the 1968 Vienna convention on road traffic, which mandates only that you must "have an efficient brake".
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As mentioned above, there has never been a problem at PBP with upright trikes only having brakes on one wheel.
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I think (and this is just based on my experience) that the bike checkers are cyclists mostly, with a bit of technical knowledge, and understand such stuff - or or open to persuasion. IIRC they were mostly interested in lights (the correct number and [2003] that you had spare bulbs*) and hi viz, and that the machine looked capable of making the trip.
*which were frequently shared between riders :)
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I cannot believe a vis vest thread has managed to drag out for 21 pages.
We will all need a vis vest with a zip. I think that about covers it.
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/steveindenmark/IMG_1356-1.jpg)
I will ahve my Altura night vision with me as well.
Steve
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I'm afraid that does not appear EN471 compliant...
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Just bought mine from Ian Hennessy :thumbsup:
Linky: http://www.ukcyclist.co.uk/shop
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Just bought mine from Ian Hennessy :thumbsup:
Linky: http://www.ukcyclist.co.uk/shop
Ooh, that's handy! So handy, in fact, that it would be daft not to... Order placed.
Thanks Ian (and fungus)
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The refective vest from Ukcyclist does tick a number of boxes... mainly cost and EN compliant but it does look as though it could become a sail an flap about. Has anyone bought one of these and modified it to minimise flapping?
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I'll let you know how mine is after the weekend Alex, but Panoramix has one and he seemed pleased with it - no significant flapping.
EDIT hows the winter miles going? Shouldn't it read Winter miles = Cold feet ?
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The refective vest from Ukcyclist does tick a number of boxes... mainly cost and EN compliant but it does look as though it could become a sail an flap about. Has anyone bought one of these and modified it to minimise flapping?
I'm pretty small so will probably be modifying mine a little, fortunately I know a seamstress or 2 :thumbsup:
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[Paris-Brest-Paris 2011] Re: PBP - Reflective vests? by Oranj Today at 01:01:52 PM
Made me smile! I guess some will be orange ...
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My local builders merchant sells EN471-compliant vests, £3 each. Why would you need anything more?
Well, do they do small sizes, or just one Big FO Builder size? Are they 'solid' (= hot & sweaty) or mesh? Do they pack up to a small size? etc etc etc, which is why we're on page 22.
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I'm pretty small so will probably be modifying mine a little, fortunately I know a seamstress or 2 :thumbsup:
I'll be modifying my reflective vest too - raise the front a few inches so it doesn't bunch when you lean forwards, take the sides in a bit so it's less flappy and add a couple of slits in the back so that I can get to my shirt pockets while I'm wearing it.
I might also see if I can find an EN 471:2003 or EN 1150:1999 label to stitch into the collar while I'm at it. O:-)
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I heard Ready Brek makes you EN471 compliant
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I want a string-vest style version but can't seem to find anything.
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I heard Ready Brek makes you EN471 compliant
I think it only conforms to the old British Standard, and has not been approved by Brussels
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My local builders merchant sells EN471-compliant vests, £3 each. Why would you need anything more?
Well, do they do small sizes, or just one Big FO Builder size? Are they 'solid' (= hot & sweaty) or mesh? Do they pack up to a small size? etc etc etc, which is why we're on page 22.
On an earlier page somewhere last week I said I'd got mine for a couple of quid from Lidl. It's mesh (although not a string vest mesh - that I'd prefer), not sweaty and packs down to quite tiny. Several sizes (were) available, but you know what Lidl are like.
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The refective vest from Ukcyclist does tick a number of boxes... mainly cost and EN compliant but it does look as though it could become a sail an flap about. Has anyone bought one of these and modified it to minimise flapping?
Those who've ordered: thanks, and I'll be posting them tomorrow.
About flappiness: if you choose the right size they fit snugly and are actually quite short - think waistcoat dimensions.
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Ow do AndyH... seems ages ago since the DIY MK 600... the weather up here recently has been positively tropical... so plenty of smiles racking up the miles... did a DIY 200 a couple of weeks ago... it took 13 hrs but it was my first long ride for ages and the wind was brutal... first BRM calender event will be the Nippy Sweetie from Edinburgh 6 Feb... All my rides I've signed up for so far are up north or Scotland... I see from the AUK site you are already racking up the miles and points... good lad...
Happy cycling...
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I thought this thread needed a bump! ;)
I've just read on the French PBP forum that the 'official' gilet (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/index2.php?lang=fr&cat=preparation&page=habillement) will be priced at €20, is ordered at registration time and collected when you collect all the other gubbins on sign-up day.
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You can buy reflective vests in the Pound shop, in the car section.
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this poor thread has been neglected for too long. after 22 pages I expect a lot of us have forgotten what was said earlier - do you think we can go round again?
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Do you reckon I could attach some of these (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PINK-NITE-TRITIUM-GADGET-KEYRING-GLOWRING-GLOW-STICK-/280640682202?pt=UK_SportsLeisure_Camping_LightsLanternsTorches&hash=item41577cf8da#ht_3701wt_905) to my gilet?
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Just impressed myself: I clicked the "New" link into this thread, and it opened on page 3, postings from circa Jan 2010.
I skipped the next 20 pages. Did I miss much?
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Not really. Other than GrahamG wants a string one. And IanH is flogging them on his website.
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Thanks :thumbsup:. I now feel completely up to date on all the important matters regarding PBP.
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Thanks :thumbsup:. I now feel completely up to date on all the important matters regarding PBP.
Not yet. You haven't considered your valve caps. Which should be clear. Or match your frame. Or left off all together. Then there's the lock nut. Some are adament these should be left off in case you get a visitation at 3am on the second night in the pi**ing rain and the Belgian you've been towing for the last 4 hours goes off up the road leaving you all alone with a Dynahub which won't show you what you're doing. But then perhaps you should have battery lights.
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Come come! You're confusing matters now. I'm sure those lesser yet still important subjects you mention must have their own thread somewhere, which no doubt I'll stumble upon in due course and hopefully in good time before the great event itself.
Whilst the thought is much appreciated, there's no need to sully this nice concise thread with spurious complications.
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You're right. I shouldn't deny others their fun.
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this nice concise thread
Indeed. 23 pages and there's only 20 weeks to go. Plenty of time to get to the point!
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rumages in cupboard
finds nice orange thingy with 2 stripes of wotsit all the way round
checks label
EN471 compliant
job done
(bought umpty years ago in Lidl, one size is far-too-big-for-arabella. so far icba to take it in, in any case that'll mean no label for inspectors to view ...
so ther's your excuse - of course it had a compliance label but I had to take in the sides etc. (bien sûr que ce gilet conforme au norme EN471, mais il était un peu large donc je l'ai réduit de largeur)
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If you reduce the size or make other alterations it's no longer compliant, unfortunately (even if you preserve the label). ::-)
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If you reduce the size or make other alterations it's no longer compliant, unfortunately (even if you preserve the label). ::-)
Yebbut if your sewing's neat enough, they'll never notice!
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The perfect excust to go on not getting around to doing anything.
Seems a bit unfair on those suffering from one-size-is-far-too-big/small-for-me though.
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<..where was that thread about vests?..>
went to my local decathlon today, saw some small hi-vis vests, tried one on - fits perfectly (my chest is 95cm)! well, it says "kid vest" on the packaging, i suppose it's for "larger" kids. the vest is short, so doesn't restrict access to rear jersey pockets. £3.99 - deal done.
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i see that only the thread about qualifying rides has had more veiws than this one so after next weekend, when pretty much all the qualifiers will have been done, I expect - nay, hope - that this thread will once again begin to receive the attention it truly deserves. :demon:
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<..where was that thread about vests?..>
went to my local decathlon today, saw some small hi-vis vests, tried one on - fits perfectly (my chest is 95cm)! well, it says "kid vest" on the packaging, i suppose it's for "larger" kids. the vest is short, so doesn't restrict access to rear jersey pockets. £3.99 - deal done.
that sounds very promising (mainly for the pocket access, that is).
Could you describe the thing? Mesh, velcro, sweaty-looking? Have you test-ridden it yet?
(I'm quite a way from a Decathlon, so any info is appreciated).
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I haven't yet ridden with mine, may be I should use on the 600.
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I really don't wanna be high vis. :sick:
I think I will worry about this on the road to Paris and not before then!
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i see that only the thread about qualifying rides has had more veiws than this one so after next weekend, when pretty much all the qualifiers will have been done, I expect - nay, hope - that this thread will once again begin to receive the attention it truly deserves. :demon:
I had been wondering what I should do now I have qualified - I see a few hours (days?) pondering the treasure trove of wisdom that this thread contains is a necessary prerequisite to my first PBP.
What other areas of vital importance might I have overlooked?!
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that sounds very promising (mainly for the pocket access, that is).
Could you describe the thing? Mesh, velcro, sweaty-looking? Have you test-ridden it yet?
(I'm quite a way from a Decathlon, so any info is appreciated).
it's very similar design to what builders wear, only smaller and with horizontal velcro for adjustability. there are two versions - packaging with red stripe and blue. red is a softer fabric, blue - stiffer, springy. i liked the softer one better. there are two reflective bands around, no vertical. the label with en1150 is present, size on the label is xs, made by oppenhejm-jansson.com. folds small and weighs 77g (just weighed ;D). i prefer this to a tabbard style as i wouldn't need to remove helmet to put in on/off. imo it would fit someone with a chest size of 90-97cm, but better try before buying.
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What other areas of vital importance might I have overlooked?!
A quick review suggests these are the neglected gems:
PBP 2011 - Coiffeurs (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=22498.0)
PBP Finish to Isle Of Wight (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=36696.0)
PBP - Interview with Jennifer Wise in Paris (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=43247.0)
PBP - valve caps (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=40582.0)
PBP on drugs (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=47086.0)
And of course
So, how boring is PBP ? (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=47582.0)
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Go to France. Ride your bike for 1227km.
If you have overlooked the 27km then don't worry it's only 2h2m you lose through BRM rules out of the 90. If you do the 80h start then you only use 1h48 so maybe that's better. ???
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Yay.
The Ikea one I picked up for 2 quid years ago is EN471 compliant.
Another less thing to worry about. Just need to ride 600k next weekend.
Rob
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Lucky me. I do Bikeability with my County Council and they 'loan' me EN471 Reflectives to issue to the kids and me. So I can choose vest or 3/4 sleeves (with pockets) from my 'work' kit.
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After all the worry of the hi vis, that I thought would go away after I bought a Hennesey Hi-viz TM, I couldn't resist buying the official one ::-). Sucker.
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After all the worry of the hi vis, that I thought would go away after I bought a Hennesey Hi-viz TM, I couldn't resist buying the official one ::-). Sucker.
That Official Hi-Viz really looks smart. I am going for one; better than my floppy fits; it really looks like a super Gilet.
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it really looks like a super Gilet.
It is a super gilet, a very well thought out design and robust construction. It's made by L2S and I have one, though obviously without the PBP branding.
In all seriousness, you may want to bring your floppy fit one too. The L2S gilet is quite a heavy weight material and some MAY find it too warm, depending on how balmy the nights are or, conversely, if it rains and you need a waterproof too. I didn't wear mine on both my 400 and 600, opting for my doctored-fit ex motorcycle one instead simply because it was lighter and airier.
Not suggesting you cart both around with you on PBP but give yourself the option of deciding between the two once you've seen it.
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[...] depending on how barmy the nights are [...]
Barmy? They're totally insane.
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it really looks like a super Gilet.
It is a super gilet, a very well thought out design and robust construction. It's made by L2S and I have one, though obviously without the PBP branding.
In all seriousness, you may want to bring your floppy fit one too. The L2S gilet is quite a heavy weight material and some MAY find it too warm, depending on how balmy the nights are or, conversely, if it rains and you need a waterproof too. I didn't wear mine on both my 400 and 600, opting for my doctored-fit ex motorcycle one instead simply because it was lighter and airier.
Not suggesting you cart both around with you on PBP but give yourself the option of deciding between the two once you've seen it.
I shouldn't have any trouble with spares as I am doing a Baxters with coach support.
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[...] depending on how barmy the nights are [...]
Barmy? They're totally insane.
Yes.
For 'Barmy', please read: 'torrential'. :)
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Having seen the official gilets in the flesh whilst doing my 600km qualifier last weekend I can confirm what Andrew has already said.
They are very well made and tailored with elasticated cuffs and neck. They also have slits cut in the back to allow access to back pockets of jersey. The only downside is perhaps the weight of the material.
Given the quality I was expecting a price of around 30E so I think they are very good value at 20E.
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I've ordered the official one in what I think is the right size.
But as a backup (and because we'll be driving down and therefore need them in the car anyway) I'll be taking a locally sourced mesh one, and make the decision on the day which to actually carry around with me.
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I just received the Mavic Vision H20 jacket (own pics, not the useless stuff on the Mavic website) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/24693028@N02/sets/72157626988668200/)
It feels very unbreathing(plastic), so I'm not too sure about it yet. Lucky for me the current weather is great for testing it.
The back has an opening, which will be very useful for uprights... (I ride a recumbent)
But if this saves me from bringing a vest and a jacket, I reckon it's worth it.
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Decathlon are doing one now(I checked for next weekend) although oddly enough I can only find it on the UK website. Mind you I think there's a glitch on the French site as it's not showing any gilets at all!
Julia
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I wonder if the new Rapha ones comply? The blurb seems to suggest they will - Although a merino top + mesh hi-viz seems like a better value option?!
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I wonder if the new Rapha ones comply? The blurb seems to suggest they will - Although a merino top + mesh hi-viz seems like a better value option?!
I thought compliance needed at least 2 x 5cm bands encircling the torso. These don't.
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I thought compliance needed at least 2 x 5cm bands encircling the torso. These don't.
[/quote]
I didn't think they would pass scrutiny either. This is the bit I wondered about:
"All riders are required to meet strict visibility criteria and the Brevet Jersey has two high-visibility stripes around the chest, one in high-visibility pink and another in a stylish perforated Schoeller fabric."
- The pictures show 2 bands front & back - don't look 5cm wide though. Also not sure that pink counts as night-time hi-viz either!
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I didn't think they would pass scrutiny either.
My guess is that scrutiny at the bike check will consist of:
"Est-ce que cette veste haute visibilité est conforment à la norme EN471 ?"
If it's got the label, it'll be OK. If not - not.
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My guess is that scrutiny at the bike check will consist of:
"Est-ce que cette veste haute visibilité est conforment à la norme EN471 ?"
If it's got the label, it'll be OK. If not - not.
Or EN1150. EN1150 is in the regulations, the PBP-vest is EN1150 too, not EN471.
I think the two 5cm bands are EN471, since my EN1150 jacket has bands of about 2cm.
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Decathlon are doing one now(I checked for next weekend) although oddly enough I can only find it on the UK website. Mind you I think there's a glitch on the French site as it's not showing any gilets at all!
Julia
I've seen them at my local Decathlon. Quite thin fabric so it should be quite ok.
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From my quick researches, most internet sellers in UK selling hi viz have EN471 for adults and EN1150 for childrens wear.
I have an EN471 hung up behind me which looks perfectly adequate, but I do not want to fall foul of bureacracy at the last minute. I have looked on Decathlon and cannot find as others have.
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Get the Stylish PBP version.
It must comply with their own requirements
Good pose value afterwards.
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+1, but I bet no one checks labels. "Montrez votre chasuble svp. C'est bon. Suivant" Anything plausible will do.
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From my quick researches, most internet sellers in UK selling hi viz have EN471 for adults and EN1150 for childrens wear.
The difference seems to be that 471 is for use at work and 1150 for the public/leisure. Anything that meets 471 automatically meets 1150, but not vice versa
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+1, but I bet no one checks labels. "Montrez votre chasuble svp. C'est bon. Suivant" Anything plausible will do.
Might not even check them before the ride. There is wiggle room for sharing them at the bike-check. On the first night riders can be visually inspected en masse, and transgressors picked out for a forcible sale of an official Gilet (+surcharge).
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Posted by: mattc
There is wiggle room for sharing them at the bike-check.
I seem to remember in 2003 when there was a full bike check (it was cancellled in 2007 because of the weather) your reflective item was marked by the examiner so that it coukdn't be used by a.n.other.
Why don't you just order the official one, no problems then.
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Good pose value afterwards.
That's why I bought one. I have no intention of wearing it on PBP! ;D
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At night your cycle MUST have white front and red rear lights lit. It MUST also be fitted with a red rear reflector (and amber pedal reflectors, if manufactured after 1/10/85).
From the Highway Code.
Just had to get new pedals but they came with no reflectors, luckily the unfitted ones from the old ones do :)
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...and in the end the check on the reflective vest (for me anyway) amounted to "have something vaguely yellow in your hand" :)
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26 pages on REFLECTIVE VESTS!
I may be in awe of all your physical abilities, but I do worry about other aspects of your personalities..... or is this the effect of years of audaxing? P'raps I'll try a sp**t*v*.
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Rapha pink passed the check.
Oh, I saw some poor bloke get fined for not wearing his. It may have just gone 8pm but I was still in sunglasses!
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For the record... I thought the PBP reflective vest/gilet was pretty brilliant (sic) and will be part of my kit as long as it lasts.
YMMV!
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Yes, the official vests are pretty good as reflectives go. Almost wished I'd got one even though I never wear them!
BTW not all Rapha owners were so lucky. I spoke to one guy who was made to buy a yellow one before passing the bike test.
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i agree - the official pbp reflective vest looks pretty good. however i ordered both jersey and the vest in medium and while the jersey fit is perfect, vest was too big so i had it refunded. yesterday at the closing ceremony i picked up a small one (the only size they had) for a tenner :thumbsup:
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For me the official vest was way too hot. On the first night I had serious shoulder problems (work related problem). So I bought a lighter one at the Decathlon in Brest (conveniently located next to the course) and dropped the official one off at the van in Loudeac. It's good autumn or spring quality though.
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For me the official vest was way too hot. <snip>. It's good autumn or spring quality though.
Agreed. I like the gilet muchly; well designed and functional, but it is not summer weight imho.
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I thought it was pretty good - I had only arm warmers and a jersey so (since I only bothered to put it on when it got dark) the official gilet was an essential part of my layering for me. Incredible value for a tenner.
If you tried to wear it through the day I can imagine it would have been torrid.
On the last run into Dreux my group was flagged down by a motard and made to don our reflectives, although the sun was still an hour in the sky. Not worth arguing over, but bemusing (I was so wasted on the way to Brest that I put my waterproof on *over* my gilet without realising, and rode the whole stretch with nobody saying a thing).
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Although I took a £2 job to France, Mr Bunbury sold me his official vest just before the off, and it was a good buy. They are a simple construction but a good cut, and ths zip works - which is all you want in a gilet. The rear pocket access slits aren't really big enough, but you can hitch the thing up easily enough.
The weight was perfect for me. I only wore it at night, and you can always undo a gilet if you're too warm! So it does indeed form a handy extra layer, easily zipped/unzipped for long descents/climbs. (Gilets ideally have meshy backs, but never mind.)
But I have to say that the site of all those block yellow torsos at night did sadden me a little. It felt like a uniform imposed on us, like easily-mislaid enfants. We lost the variety of club/country jerseys which helps make the event so rich. Our Audax England logos were sometimes visible from the rear, but only barely. Next time around it would be good to get gilets that are more meshy to the rear. Or something. (can I cut holes in an existing one? Not sure what the EN regs say ... )
If I'm going to wear hi-viz on the bike, I may as well wear something with bragging rights :smug:
EDIT: oh yeah; at the bike-check I told them mine was in my luggage. So noone saw it :facepalm:
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For the record... I thought the PBP reflective vest/gilet was pretty brilliant (sic) and will be part of my kit as long as it lasts.
YMMV!
I agree - it's excellent, although I didn't wear it on the event, favouring the Hennessy crop top.
It will make a most excellent commuting and randoneering gilet with top pose value.
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I was very happy with my £2 Lidl thing. It was much lighter & more breathable than the official one, and the only time I had a desire to not be wearing it was on the early morning dash out of Paris.
I noticed some people using very minimalist vests - almost like open harness arrangements. No-one seemed to mind.
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My official one is falling apart already; the edging is pulling away in a number of places where I stretched it to get into my pockets or similar.
The only use I can see for it in the future is touring in France or anywhere else these things are required by law. It's quite likely it won't get touched until August 2015... :hand:
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I used my own velcro fixing one. The velcro was too far down to keep my brevet pouch tucked in so I had to tuck it under my jersey. This was generally OK but occasionally caused some uncomfortable 'frottage de nipple', as I believe the French call it.
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It's quite likely it won't get touched until August 2015... :hand:
What's happening in August 2015 then ? ;)
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The official gillet was heavy enough that I didn't need much else to stay warm at night, except in the worst of the rain. Wearing it during the day (shortly after the USA-ian died, as ordered by an official) was too damn hot. I'll stick to cooler options like the Mille Miglia vest or a Sam Browne belt where I can.
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It's weird how people here talk about getting too hot. I wore arm warmers, a shell jacket and my offical PBP gilet not just at night but often for large chunks of the day too and was often freezing cold. I think this was probably tiredness, but I didn't even take off my leg warmers on 2 of the days! I was never hot.
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Wow, is this thread really still going?
There's only one thing for it: In the style of the YACF jersey photo competition, one for YACFers in their PBP-compliant reflective vests. One point for each vest in the photo. One extra point for each original style. Bonus point when worn in combination with a YACF jersey or buff. One point deducted for SkyRide vests...
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It's weird how people here talk about getting too hot. I wore arm warmers, a shell jacket and my offical PBP gilet not just at night but often for large chunks of the day too and was often freezing cold. I think this was probably tiredness, but I didn't even take off my leg warmers on 2 of the days! I was never hot.
Yebbut you's a slender lady, innit? Little insulation and 25% less baseline heat production (80W cf 100W) than a blerk. Getting wet won't have helped; evaporative cooling and all that. Being a tall slender gal means you have much surface area and a small heater...
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Wow, is this thread really still going?
There's only one thing for it: In the style of the YACF jersey photo competition, one for YACFers in their PBP-compliant reflective vests. One point for each vest in the photo. One extra point for each original style. Bonus point when worn in combination with a YACF jersey or buff. One point deducted for SkyRide vests...
Not sure what jersey I are wearing underneath the jacket though!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6186/6086675755_72e7ae68cf.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/66870021@N02/6086675755/)
Brest (http://www.flickr.com/photos/66870021@N02/6086675755/) by Feline Lara (http://www.flickr.com/people/66870021@N02/), on Flickr
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Let the piss ripping recommence!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6067/6088656148_18cdcca816.jpg)
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It's weird how people here talk about getting too hot. I wore arm warmers, a shell jacket and my offical PBP gilet not just at night but often for large chunks of the day too and was often freezing cold. I think this was probably tiredness, but I didn't even take off my leg warmers on 2 of the days! I was never hot.
Au contraire, Postie reckoned that you are pretty hot.
As for the gillet, although it was undoubtedly hi-vizzy, it wasn't as good as my was old and Randonee weary Nike gillet. I found it too heavy and warm without the windcheetah front. Shan't be bringing it out again until 2015.
H
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Graham, what shade & make lippy? You did very well to get one to match your gilet, was it waterproof?
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Graham, Postie reckons you are hot too.
H
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It's weird how people here talk about getting too hot. I wore arm warmers, a shell jacket and my offical PBP gilet not just at night but often for large chunks of the day too and was often freezing cold. I think this was probably tiredness, but I didn't even take off my leg warmers on 2 of the days! I was never hot.
I was never cold, even at night.
I wore just a short sleeve jersey and shorts pretty much the entire time. Gilet was worn at night (as required) and a few times during the day (poor visibility climbing the Roc on the way out, and most of the last 2 days).
I used my rain jacket once (for the rain up to Loudeac), and my knee warmers once (after leaving Loudeac) but soon took them off.
But it was odd for me passing people with barely any skin on show (arm warmers, jackets, leg warmers, etc) whilst I was wearing just a short sleeve jersey and the gilet and wishing that it would get a bit cooler.
My PBP gilet will be put to good use on commuting run once the days start to get shorter. I wasn't a fan of it at first but I really like it now.
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I left the official gilet in my hotel room as I decided it was too heavy. But I did wear a Montane featherlite gilet as well as a cheapo hi viz ( EN 471 compliant). I wasn't cold at any time and even felt the rain was refreshing.
I was in most danger of being too hot -one of the downsides of being a ginga ninja!
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I pretty much followed the Greenbank sartorial approach until Villaines in the way back, although my arms covered in dew cycling through the mist on the way into Brest got me pretty chilled. This was because in my pre-ride frenzy to reduce weight being carried I mistakenly ditched the arm warmers.
I eventually realised I could have bought replacement arm warmers at one of the controls and did so at Villaines, so wore them the final night.
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Let the piss ripping recommence!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6067/6088656148_18cdcca816.jpg)
Suits you sir, suits you! :-X
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Let the piss ripping recommence!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6067/6088656148_18cdcca816.jpg)
I want your gilet damnit!
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Feeling the love... ;D
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David acquired yet another reflective vest as part of his SkyRide leader's role today. He does not want it. It is polyester mesh (so not too hot & sweaty) size XL, EU HVW100 compliant in a fetching shade of fluorescent pink. Free to the first person who sends me a large, self-addressed Jiffy Bag...
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You can check my article about reflective vests. Unfortunately it is in finnish, but pictures say more. :)
http://www.randonneurs.fi/miten-valitsen-heijastinliivin-pyorailyyn/
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Wow. Those 2 posts have skipped straight past a PBP year.
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Hot topic.