20 mph limit

[Panoramix]

May be this has been discussed before but there is a "European Citizen´s Initiative" to make 20mph the default speed limit in town centres / villages.

I was living in the pilot area for a 20mph limit in Bristol and thought that it was quite good, so here you go :

20 mph limit

So far only 14 000 people across Europe have signed it!

[Flynn]

Is there any point?? <rant>It's never enforced (much like the seatbelt law & mobile phone usage in cars).</rant>

But some people will obey it, so it will become self-enforcing.

[Pete Owens]

Is there any point??

Yes.

While people may not strictly adhere to the speed limits they do not disregard them completely. They tend to exceed the limit by the margin that they think they can get away with. So it is quite common to see people driving at 80 on motorways or 35 in 30 limits. Those "not complying" with 20 limits tend to be driving at about 25mph which is a significant gain.

[alexb]

Our road is a 20mph limit has light up signs showing drivers their speeds. I'm not convinced that they're accurate. I think they report cars are speeding when they're not. However, most drivers seem to be moving at between 18 and 22mph which as you say is a good result.
The knobs that speed simply don't care and short of bringing the Police in for 48 hours, when most of us would probably also get fined (dependent on the margins allowed), there's not much you can do.

Why might we get fined? Because it's a relatively narrow road and I prefer to roll along and ensure I don't collide with parked cars and oncoming vehicles, as well as paying attention to the pavements. I tend therefore to oscillate between about 18mph and 22mph. There doesn't seem to be a gear ratio  that's happy for the car to roll along at tickover which coincides with 20mph.

However, if 20mph became the default, I'm sure manufacturers would be able to improve the gear ratio choices to make this possible.

[ian]

In principle a great idea. That said, I live in a 20 mph zone and in the five years I've lived here I've seen zero enforcement. I suspect I'd be more likely to a see aliens dancing the tango. The problem is that many of the roads are rat-runs between two A roads and attract the kind of drivers who hammer down them at forty because they think it'll save them several seconds at the lights on the main road. That's not really a criticism of the 20 mph limit and I'd rather have it than not, and I think it ought to cover all residential areas, there's really no good reason to be driving faster. Driving at 20mph is actually quite hard, it's amazing how used we have become to zooming around and I think that learning to drive slow is no bad thing. Modern cars make speeding along too easy.

So, yes, I'm totally in agreement, but I'd like to see some enforcement. Also, for my local roads, they ideally ought to be no-through-roads to stop the rat-running. I guess there needs to be an urban design for residential areas of which 20 mph is a key starting point, but residential streets should be proper mixed use amenities.

[Littlesox]

Is there any point?? <rant>It's never enforced (much like the seatbelt law & mobile phone usage in cars).</rant>

I have the means to report every UK based truck or bus driver I see using a mobile phone.....which I do without fail, wether I am on duty or not.

[alexb]

Residential roads with a 20mph limit ought to be a confusing mess of incoherent one way systems that make it impossible for a driver who doesn't know the area to negotiate. It should also therefore take longer than the equivalent 30mph non-residential section of road.
Of course, there should be little cut-throughs for cyclists so that we can all feel smug.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I'd never come across the "European Citizen´s Initiative" concept before, but now I've signed one.

Is there any point?? <rant>It's never enforced (much like the seatbelt law & mobile phone usage in cars).</rant>

As others have said, it won't have any effect on the scofflaws who do 60 in town, but it will reduce the average from ~40 to ~30.

[Bledlow]

New housing developments should all be woonerfs* or the like wherever they're big enough, & existing residential areas should be redeveloped into them whenever there's an opportunity.

*Dutch word. The concept is common there, in Scandinavia, & some other countries. No separation of different traffic types, low speed limit, no signs once you're inside, limited access points. I think I've heard the term 'home zone' used here. Those I've visited or stayed in abroad tend to have children playing in the streets. They usually lack a "confusing mess of incoherent one way systems", but they're no good at all for rat-runners.

They tend to be bounded & connected by normal & often busy roads, mind. That's where the bus stops are.

[Socks]

Of course we could go metric properly instead of the current mix of metric and imperial - so all the mph road signs would become kph. 

- no cost for new signs
- fewer deaths and injuries
- less carbon emissions
- better environment for children, cyclists, pedestrians in towns
- help to erode the 'speed' culture

[Andrij]

I'd love to see drivers trying to maintain 20kph down residential streets. I think some of them would explode! 

[Redlight]

I'd love to see drivers trying to maintain 20kph down residential streets. I think some of them would explode! 

I'd be happy just to see the majority maintaining something below 50 kph

[Andrew]

I'm unable to support this initiative. As a Brit living in France, the only French state issued form of identity I have (a health care card) is not accepted. I think I'll email the organisers to let them know.... my support might make all the difference!

[Andrew]

I think I'll email the organisers to let them know

I did... and they responded! Little they can do about it apparently as it's to do with accepted forms of id within different nations. In short, it's not all quite joined up yet.

However, they've forwarded my comment to the "EU commission" so stay tuned... I may be making the headlines! 

[Cudzoziemiec]

Getting back to "the point" of this initiative - the main one, surely, is that by making 20mph the default in built-up areas, it would become incumbent on the Society of Automotive Self-Indulgence (etc etc) to put the case for every instance of a higher limit.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I'm more worried about having to keep to 20mph on my bicycle. I will forever be in fear of a police motorbike coming up behind me and saying.  "Who do  you think you are, Bradley Wiggins?"

[Nelson Longflap]

Of course we could go metric properly instead of the current mix of metric and imperial - so all the mph road signs would become kph. 

- no cost for new signs
- fewer deaths and injuries
- less carbon emissions
- better environment for children, cyclists, pedestrians in towns
- help to erode the 'speed' culture

That's genius that is. +1

Wouldn't work for distance unfortunately.  I remember when Ireland went metric and some roads still had a mixture of old signs in miles and new signs in km ... very disconcerting to see the distance-number getting bigger as you approached a town   

[zigzag]

I'm more worried about having to keep to 20mph on my bicycle. <...>

bike speedometers/computers are not compulsory - how would you know what speed you are going. even when the computer is present it's not safe to constantly look down and check if you are not "breaking" speed limit

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

I'm unable to support this initiative. As a Brit living in France, the only French state issued form of identity I have (a health care card) is not accepted. I think I'll email the organisers to let them know.... my support might make all the difference!

Don't know whether it would help, but apparently you can use a proxy server to sign on as a British user.  Apparently some people also use this as a way of by-passing the BBC restriction on iPlayer usage.  Not that I would know about that.

[Ningishzidda]

In the street I live, there isn’t a 20 mph limit. It’s the normal 30 mph limit for unmarked streets with lighting.
If any resident or their visitor is seen driving at a speed which appears to be excessive for the safety of the local children on their bikes, the resident gets a knock on the door and told quite sternly “Keep your speed down, ( expletive removed ).”

[David Martin]

I'm more worried about having to keep to 20mph on my bicycle. <...>

bike speedometers/computers are not compulsory - how would you know what speed you are going. even when the computer is present it's not safe to constantly look down and check if you are not "breaking" speed limit

The rpesence or absence of a speedometer is irrelevant. It is what the law says. And the law says that it is an offence for *motor* vehicles to exceed the posted limit. Just the same as beign over teh alcohol limit. You can't argue that it shouldn't apply as you don't have an intoximeter.

[Redlight]

[ it's not safe to constantly look down and check if you are not "breaking" speed limit

Isn't that the argument that the so-callled "Association" of British Drivers (Actually, I suspect, one sad git playing with himself in his garden shed) uses against speed limits?  Apparently, drivers will be so busy looking at their speedometers to make sure they are sticking to 69.9 mph that they will completely fail to notice the slower-moving vehicle in front of them.

[David Martin]

In a land far far away I used the power of mathematics to demonstrate to the late Mr Smith that his argument that it was safer to travel at 35 than 30 if travelling at 30 meant checking your speedo constantly was complete baloney. not only do you hit more but you hit it harder.

[Regulator]

I'm more worried about having to keep to 20mph on my bicycle. I will forever be in fear of a police motorbike coming up behind me and saying.  "Who do  you think you are, Bradley Wiggins?"

Speed limits do not apply to cycles*.












*Except where there has been specific local provision.

[Ningishzidda]

I'm more worried about having to keep to 20mph on my bicycle. I will forever be in fear of a police motorbike coming up behind me and saying.  "Who do  you think you are, Bradley Wiggins?"

Speed limits do not apply to cycles*.












*Except where there has been specific local provision.

 

The speed limit applies to ANYTHING using the road for the purpose of getting from one place to another.

A cyclist, skateboarder, roller skater, in-line skater, tobogonist, canoist etc will probably not be prosecuted for exceeding the speed limit.
This is primarily because their vehicle does not possess a VCA certified speed indication device.

Wilfully disregard this law and you might be pulled for 'inconsiderate cycling'.

29
Careless, and inconsiderate, cycling.
If a person rides a cycle on a road without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road, he is guilty of an offence.