Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Further and Faster => Topic started by: PaulF on 25 July, 2011, 11:50:32 am
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I made an attempt at the South Downs Way on Saturday and really struggled from about the half way point. Some of the hills are obviously too steep to ride up but I found myself having to get off and push even the shallowest of inclines most of which I'd have had no trouble if I had a fresh set of legs.
OK, so even without the benefit of hindsight attempting a 100 mile ride when my longest ride for a year wasn't above 30 miles was always going to be a challenge ::-) but I didn't expect it to be that hard!
Obviously choice of bike had something to do with my struggle; a singlespeed is probably not the best tool for the job (but a least one person's ridden it twice in less than 20 hours on a singlespeed).
I had a good breakfast before I left and ate regularly through the ride: flapjack, fruitcake, Powerbars and energy drinks and also drank plenty of water. I never felt hungry or close to 'bonking'.
So is it mainly a question of getting used to riding longer distances or are there other things that I can do to build endurance?
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LSD ;)
Long Slow Distance, not the drug.
Regular rides, building up mileage gradually, at a steady (aerobic) pace.
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LSD is now often taken to be Long Steady Distance, a slightly different approach.
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I'm obviously old and out of touch ;D
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We humans are outstandingly good at adaptation. Your body will adapt to the life you give it. The more demands for endurance you put on yourself, the more your body will adapt to meet those demands.
So. More long rides. :thumbsup:
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Here's how I see it (simplified view)
There are two energy sources in the body, fat and glycogen
1) Ride up to 20 minutes, body runs off "free" glycogen that is slooshing about. So if you ride strongly for 20 minutes having just eaten it will be good but after 20 minutes this stuff is used up
2) More than 20 minutes some fat is burnt and glycogen use is more "sensible". I assume because a little bit of fat is mobilzed the glucogen use is more long term
3) More than 90 minutes and the glycogen reserves start to run low. To make more glycogen the body burns fat, which converts to glycogen and this is then used. Trouble is, the rate at which this happens can't keep pace with the rate that a fast cycling person uses it up. So you have to slow up to an appropriate speed for fat burning
To explain what happened on the trip over the South Downs, PaulF on his 30 mile rides ( presumably in a couple of hours) would mostly be using glycogen as fuel and so be able to ride at a hard pace. Once he went over 30 miles / a couple of hours the initial supplies of glycogen will be used up. Even though he is doing the right thing, eating regularly, I would guess he is still riding too fast/ hard and so running out of glycogen.
At 50% of your max power, the body uses 50% glycogen and 50% fat for power. At 70%, 70/30
That might not sound like much of a difference but the body has much much more fat stored than glycogen
So the short term answer is "don't ride so fast and hard, pace yourself"
The longer term answer is to raise the rate of work that you can ride at but still be burning fat. Most authorities believe that there are two ways of doing this
1) Do lots of miles at the "long stead distance" pace. This is at the upper end of fat burning. Fat burning should gradually become more efficient
2) Do interval training to raise your ceiling "VO2" max power. If you raise your top end then apparently all the lower end stuff will increase too. If your top end power is greater then that means that half of your top end power, where half and half fat + gylcogen is burnt, is at a higher level too.
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Maybe consider getting some gears?
I used to live in holmfirth, and regularly rode up Holme moss on a 64" fixed.
When I put a 3-speed with a 40" bottom gear, I was amazed how easy it was to ride Holme Moss.
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Thanks all so it's more hard work then :)
Maybe consider getting some gears?
That's a sore point. I ordered a new rim from my LBS to be built round an Alfine hub 2 weeks ago but, apparently due to Bastille Day, Mavic were unable to deliver. They've just told me the wheel is being tensioned now!
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Here's how I see it (simplified view)
There are two energy sources in the body, fat and glycogen
1) Ride up to 20 minutes, body runs off "free" glycogen that is slooshing about. So if you ride strongly for 20 minutes having just eaten it will be good but after 20 minutes this stuff is used up
2) More than 20 minutes some fat is burnt and glycogen use is more "sensible". I assume because a little bit of fat is mobilzed the glucogen use is more long term
3) More than 90 minutes and the glycogen reserves start to run low. To make more glycogen the body burns fat, which converts to glycogen and this is then used. Trouble is, the rate at which this happens can't keep pace with the rate that a fast cycling person uses it up. So you have to slow up to an appropriate speed for fat burning
Mostly incorrect, misleading, and I doubt anything to do with the OP's problem which sounds more like muscular fatigue due to lack of training.
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The rule of thumb I'm aware of is that if you are comfortable riding 1/2 to 2/3 of your target distance that target should be doable, while less than that makes the target tougher to achieve. I suspect this breaks down a bit in longer audax distances, but is probably good for day rides. Obviously, finding the time to build up to 50-60 miles (offroad, so a good day out at my pace) as a regular proposition is a challenge in itself.
As well as steady endurance rides, would going out and doing a few hills have helped?
Oh ... and well done on what sounded like a decent day out, even if you didn't quite make it.
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IME, riding hills helps with riding hills.
Endurance needs hours in the saddle and nothing else helps.
The other aspect of endurance, core strength of spine, neck and shoulders, can be improved by exercises - but I have little knowledge of that subject.
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The rule of thumb I'm aware of is that if you are comfortable riding 1/2 to 2/3 of your target distance that target should be doable,
ferinstance....
on a 200km ride I find 150km o.k. & I start to tire after that.
when I feel that 200km is something that I can do without being creamcrackered at the end,then I'll start to try 300km rides.
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We humans are outstandingly good at adaptation. Your body will adapt to the life you give it. The more demands for endurance you put on yourself, the more your body will adapt to meet those demands.
So. More long rides. :thumbsup:
This.
When they removed the robots at work and I had to start handloading 8-10T of steel everyday the first few weeks were agony, I came out of work and could barely press the clutch pedal on the car. After about 3 months it became easier, after 6 months not only was I managing it but I was fast at it, giving me chance to find the odd minute or so for a rest. It fucked up my wrists, shoulders and neck but even with these constant ailments the body just keeps on going.
It may not be pleasant for a while but if you keep at it you'll crack it. It's one of those strange things where you don't notice it getting easier but it just dawns on you one day that you aren't as knackered.
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Here's how I see it (simplified view)
Mostly incorrect, misleading, and I doubt anything to do with the OP's problem which sounds more like muscular fatigue due to lack of training.
Ok so how does it work?
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Here's how I see it (simplified view)
There are two energy sources in the body, fat and glycogen
1) Ride up to 20 minutes, body runs off "free" glycogen that is slooshing about. So if you ride strongly for 20 minutes having just eaten it will be good but after 20 minutes this stuff is used up
2) More than 20 minutes some fat is burnt and glycogen use is more "sensible". I assume because a little bit of fat is mobilzed the glucogen use is more long term
3) More than 90 minutes and the glycogen reserves start to run low. To make more glycogen the body burns fat, which converts to glycogen and this is then used. Trouble is, the rate at which this happens can't keep pace with the rate that a fast cycling person uses it up. So you have to slow up to an appropriate speed for fat burning
Mostly incorrect, misleading, and I doubt anything to do with the OP's problem which sounds more like muscular fatigue due to lack of training.
So what would you say is the correct answer if Vorsprung is "mostly incorrect..."? Isn't it a bit simplistic just to say "muscular fatigue" without any elaboration - surely that's simply saying "he got too tired"?
EDIT: cross post with Vorsprung!
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So what would you say is the correct answer if Vorsprung is "mostly incorrect..."? Isn't it a bit simplistic just to say "muscular fatigue" without any elaboration - surely that's simply saying "he got too tired"?
But why overcomplicate something that is simple, if you read the OP he had dramatically increased his mileage, given himself a further handicap by using a single speed bike for that route and had certainly eaten enough so do you think it is a fuelling issue.
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Ok so how does it work?
That was not the point of my post, if you are that interested do your own research. ::-) I only commented because it had vary little to do with the OPs question where quite clearly he had eaten enough and was riding at a slow enough pace to not be troubled by fueling
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Ok so how does it work?
That was not the point of my post, if you are that interested do your own research. ::-)
I already have! Never mind....
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I agree with what Vorsprung posted but I can also see what inc is saying.
However, is it not a combination of both?
If Paul was struggling to turn the pedals even up the slightest gradient then his muscle fatigue would be greatly increased with a total lack of glycogen? He has spent those reserves so suffers even more until he can replenish.
The title is How do I build my Endurance? - read Vorsprung's post again and do that.
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Ok so how does it work?
That was not the point of my post, if you are that interested do your own research. ::-)
I already have! Never mind....
A couple of points
Here's how I see it (simplified view)
There are two energy sources in the body, fat and glycogen
1) Ride up to 20 minutes, body runs off "free" glycogen that is slooshing about. So if you ride strongly for 20 minutes having just eaten it will be good but after 20 minutes this stuff is used up
Glycogen stores are not time dependent, nor does spare glycogen sloosh around. Anything eaten ( other than simple sugars) ) can take hours to digest for that meal to be available as energy so you are incorrect on both counts
2) More than 20 minutes some fat is burnt and glycogen use is more "sensible". I assume because a little bit of fat is mobilised the glycogen use is more long term
It is not time dependent but load dependent, the body uses both glycogen and fat most of the time
3) More than 90 minutes and the glycogen reserves start to run low. To make more glycogen the body burns fat, which converts to glycogen and this is then used. Trouble is, the rate at which this happens can't keep pace with the rate that a fast cycling person uses it up. So you have to slow up to an appropriate speed for fat burning
Not necessarily , it depends on a lot of factors, there is no arbitrary time glycogen runs low. The body does not convert fat to glycogen, the muscles use ATP which it makes from glycogen or fatty acids a by product of this combustion is lactic acid which it also recycles for fuel. The ability to fuel working muscles at high loads is dependent on physiological adaption through appropriate training. Just look at the UK 12 and 24 hour TT times
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If it's not glycogen/fuelling/bonk related then isn't it just as simple as already mentioned, muscle fatigue? which is just the point where your muscles have passed the lactic acid threshold and can't cope with any more excursion until the flooded muscles have had time to clear, or do I have it wrong?
I've certainly had tired legs before without any symptoms of the bonk.
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Here's my contribution.
I have been doing a lot of "smart training" ie variations of interval training called per the book - Endurance training, Lactate threshold and strength training, hill training, time trial training and building up to an event training and now maintenance training.
I can cycle a "normal" 600km event OK. So all the above should be a bonus.
I went on the Rhosgoch 200 on Sunday last which was 218km and 4571m ascent.
Although I was Lantern Rouge I was probably the oldest person on the event but I felt fit and had the necessary core strength to enjoy this ride and get round.
With the climbing I was chasing the clock so pushing myself beyond the "comfortable" but felt strong, but then at 200km I lost interest and ability of climbing hills. I am not sure what happened, but I had used up the necessary stuff. My guess is I had just had a large piece of fruit cake and struggled to eat it. So I was dehydrated and all my energy was going into digesting the food and not getting up the hills.
I think the moral of the story is that Interval training is very powerful but you also need to expose yourself to the real thing.
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I thought this was an interesting article.
"Why Do Your Muscles Get Tired?" (http://www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/news/cent-gov.htm)
Thanks to inc for his input on how it all works
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I went on the Rhosgoch 200 on Sunday last which was 218km and 4571m ascent.
Although I was Lantern Rouge I was probably the oldest person on the event but I felt fit and had the necessary core strength to enjoy this ride and get round.
Bigsy, I did Rhosgoch and am 57 - 4 yrs older than your profile, perhaps it's out of date??
I was first back, so we were the extremes - but I also enjoyed it, so not so different :D
I used to be a regular time trialler before my accident, and did mainly short stuff - 10 miles often, some 25s, - plus weekly club runs which were typically 50 miles, hard, and hanging on to the bunch - learning drafting skills and group safety - struggling up the hills as they rode away - they waited at the top :) - gradually getting better - elated as I began to catch others on the hills - going down from 72 Kgs to 60Kgs - getting called 'gaunt' by the neighbours!!!
I had a really bad accident in May 2010 and was off the bike for 8 months, broken & brain injured - barely walking even with a stick, and when I restarted on physiotherapists instruction, my first session was 30 seconds on a turbo at lowest resistance and uphill gearing - boy did I puff for 5 minutes !! ...and I was 65 Kgs.. :facepalm:
The Consultant said "ordinary riding is good for you, but keep within yourself" but also "No Time Trialling - your hip is still broken"
My power reading about a month later, came out at 100 FTP - it was 220 FTP pre accident - I gradually built up to 5 mins on the Turbo - after another month 10 mins - then they said I could go on the road ;D - but I only went on cycle paths cos I was terrified of being hit from behind by monster coaches and trucks, and by just about anything with an engine.. :'( I got over that and began to ride all the time :smug:
I put in for the Dragon Ride to give me an aim in life, and then discovered a magic word - AUDAX - soon did a 150k then started on 200s and was pleased to get a 300k perm done recently.
My power a coupla days ago was 173 FTP, so I am still a long way short of the old days, but my hill climbing is better and my endurance is better.
However I still had to walk a short 26% section of the last hill in the Rhosgoch, due to lack of power, overheating and almost passing out...
Next serious aim for me is LEJOG but will 'do' 400s and 600s on the way. Anyone need company on a LEJOG - if comfy beds available?
Mikey
PS My hip is still broken - technically Trochanter broken off and in pieces - still not reattached - operation due some time - then back to bed / crutches / start again :'(
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I went on the Rhosgoch 200 on Sunday last which was 218km and 4571m ascent.
Although I was Lantern Rouge I was probably the oldest person on the event but I felt fit and had the necessary core strength to enjoy this ride and get round.
Bigsy, I did Rhosgoch and am 57 - 4 yrs older than your profile, perhaps it's out of date??
I was first back, so we were the extremes - but I also enjoyed it, so not so different :D
I used to be a regular time trialler before my accident, and did mainly short stuff - 10 miles often, some 25s, - plus weekly club runs which were typically 50 miles, hard, and hanging on to the bunch - learning drafting skills and group safety - struggling up the hills as they rode away - they waited at the top :) - gradually getting better - elated as I began to catch others on the hills - going down from 72 Kgs to 60Kgs - getting called 'gaunt' by the neighbours!!!
I am amazed by your recent history and good luck. We are at extremes, my muscle mass alone weighs more than you and in total I am 110kg
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Not technical, so can't answer the question in the OP.
My final success (at the third serious attempt) on the SDW was last year and was the one time where I hadn't been able to undertake any training rides. My riding last year consisted almost entirely of my 10 mile commute to work (and 10 back) over one slight pimple of a hill (Coombe Hill near Kingston on Thames). Other riding would have consisted of bimbling around with kids and quite possibly an FNRttC to Brighton - hardly endurance building stuff.
I don't amble on the commute, but I'm not exactly quick by the standards displayed on yacf, I generally roll along at 18mph.
For the day of the SDW I started early and fed and watered myself respectably well, until near the end when I missed one of the water taps. The last three hills were much harder than the previous 27 (guess at the number) and I really slowed down. What I don't know is if they were objectively harder than the previous 27, or whether my fatigue combined with lack of water or quite possibly a mild bonk just made them seem that way.
So, in answer, lots and lots of endurance riding may not be the only answer to completing. Doing it with more than one gear would probably have helped quite a bit.