Horses

[Rapples]

You do like exclamation points. I'm not saying riding horses on roads should be banned but I do think that taking a poorly-trained and unpredictable beast on the road is a silly thing to do. Train the bloody things properly.

Horses are entirely predictable.

You can predict with 99.9% certainty that they will be entirely unpredictable

Predicting what a horse will do in a given circumstance is quite easy.  The trouble is that all circumstances are different and it's only when presented with it that you can deal with with it.  You can't actually make a horse do anyhting, that's the point

[border-rider]

I'm OK with horses on the road.  They're usually  fine if you take (a lot of) care

Living in Lambourn, one encountered semi-sane thoroughbreds in strings of 12 at dawn & dusk with no lights.  It was quite possible to send several million pounds-worth of horse in random directions if you weren't careful.

[Ham]

Let me know where you ride your horse. I may just want to go riding my bike there. No silly emoticons or excessive exclamation points needed.

I don't ride, my wife and daughter do, mainly around Wakering, Barling and Shopland.

Thanks for the veiled threat.

My wife and daughter are often in shopland, too.

[Ian H]

Horses are sometimes spooked by cyclists. The sound of a human voice nearly always reassures them, in my experience (The one exception being the foghorn warning from a (regrettably) deceased mileater. I always greet the rider (I'm actually talking to the horse).

Passing one rider somewhere in rural Shropshire:-

"That's a big one!" (a shire horse).

Her response: "Only one horse power, but one hell of a chassis."

And we parted on good terms.

[mattc]

We need more tolerance on the roads, not more intolerance.  Horses are fine, there's no problem.

Agree with your first statement.

Horses are mostly fine. The riders are mostly fine. Sometimes the horses lose it and become dangerous to other vulnerable road users. Sometimes the riders lose it and moan at cyclists for just minding their own business 

If riders are going to moan at cyclists, then they should make some effort to communicate their desires to the cycling clubs. I've seen no evidence of this happening (but will be pleased to be wrong).

[border-rider]

Sometimes, though, cyclists bring it on themselves.  I've seen a few times on audaxs groups of riders passing close and fast to horses with no warning.  On one ride the young girl on the horse was terrified. 

[mattc]

Sometimes, though, cyclists bring it on themselves.  I've seen a few times on audaxs groups of riders passing close and fast to horses with no warning.  On one ride the young girl on the horse was terrified. 

Fair point. Although two young girls with horses scared the cr@p out of me on LEL passing closish and fast (at a gallop), so they sometimes give as good as they get!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Thanks for the veiled threat.

Grow up and lose the persecution complex FB.  Given the amount of room some horses seem to need, I was hoping I'll never ride in the same county as your horse.  In any event, any threats I make are not veiled.

When I see a horse, do I slow down, talk to the rider and give lots of room (like the far side of the road)? Sure, every time.  Will I ever hop off my cycle and hide behind a parked car just so a stupid, poorly-trained beast insufficiently controlled by its rider doesn't go out of its tiny little mind?  Not a hope in hell and any consequences of my riding by that horse at that point are the rider's problem, not mine.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Let me know where you ride your horse. I may just want to go riding my bike there. No silly emoticons or excessive exclamation points needed.

I take it you don't like Keith Oates either?   

You'll have to help me out here.  I've no idea who you are talking about.

[Wendy]

He likes long strings of exclamation marks, famous for it from the old C+ forum days.  Point being that it's not generally considered good debating form to complain about punctuation, spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

[FatBloke]

....and certainly not to complain about the use of smilies!!   

[LittleWheelsandBig]

He likes long strings of exclamation marks, famous for it from the old C+ forum days.  Point being that it's not generally considered good debating form to complain about punctuation, spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

Lucky I'm not debating then, merely stating my opinion and practice.

[Bledlow]

I do think that taking a poorly-trained and unpredictable beast on the road is a silly thing to do. Train the bloody things properly.

I agree, but unfortunately a few million motorists would object to you taking their licences away

"Training" doesn't help pedestrians behave particularly well on the roads.  I think problems only come about when one or more parties don't give enough time and space to other road users, particularly pedestrians, cyclists, and horses.  It's almost invariably drivers that are guilty of this impatient selfishness, although sometimes cyclists are too.

.
Worst I've seen was a 4WD driver who overtook me while I was overtaking (at a gentle pace, having announced my presence) two children on horses, who were being escorted by their parents (on MTBs, alongside) along a short stretch of road between bridleways. He went past dangerously fast, chucking up debris from the verge his offside wheels were on (the road wasn't wide enough for horse & child + parent on bike + me + bloody great 4WD, even though he damn near knocked me off) & skidding & swerving a bit, with his deafeningly loud horn blaring.

Cue two panicked horses, two terrified children, etc. Luckily, nobody was hurt.

[Cudzoziemiec]

You can take the boy racer off road but you can't wake him up.

[Wendy]

Hopefully your opinion is slightly better informed now.

[JJ]

By and large, horse riders have many concerns in common with cyclists.  While it's usually much nicer to ride along bridle paths, if they don't use the roads sometimes as well, then they'll be confined to stupidly small islands cut off by seas of tarmac.  That'll be rather similar to our situation if we are confined to cycle paths.

No amount of training is going to guarantee that a horse won't spook, and indeed the the way to train them is mostly to take them out on the road.

It's a sad world if we're going to refuse to be patient with a rider who's having trouble with their mount.  I hope the next lorry driver behind me when my foot slips off a pedal, or when I'm moving out to go round some broken glass that wouldn't bother him doesn't take that attitude with me.

So I say, let's have a bit of give and take and empathy on the roads.

[Feline]

+1 to tolerance.

Horses were on the road before even cyclists were, indeed many of the lanes we ride in preference were designed for horses originally. They have a special status in the highway code, recognising the fact that they are live animals and not vehicles and as such special consideration is essential. Road users who ignore this do so at their peril since it is not just the horse and rider they may be putting at risk but themselves too.

If getting off my bike and speaking softly so a spooked horse can see I am a human being helps everyone get where they are going safely then I think it's the least I can do.

During my training I spent a bit of time working at the mounted police unit in Long Ashton, Bristol. Of course crowd control is a different matter altogether than the normal roads, but they have an entire garage packed with props for desensitisation training for the horses. It is incredibly hard work running through every possible sight, sound, object and type of movement and this has to be regularly repeated and worked on to keep these horses as bomb proof as possible when out and about.

Every day they would build a special assault course the horses had to be ridden through, involving flags waving, someone wrapped in a space blanket, walking over bubble wrap and other fabrics. They had bikes, prams and various items too. Each horse had it's own 'weakness' which was sometimes the most unexpected thing. Quite a few of them had a problem with shiny objects (which I believe can be an issue with bikes).

There are probably many horses that are OK with the most common traffic, people, dogs and street noises but rarely see a bike and so the rider won't actually know how their horse is going to react. Don't forget that we often use the lanes because we hope not to see much traffic. The horse riders have much the same idea as us only we are part of the traffic that they were hoping not to meet.

[Nonsteeler]

I am really split minded about this horses on public roads. Well actually not. If a horse/rider combination is road fit then there is no question on a public road - all are welcome.

But if a horse/rider combination can't deal with everyday traffic, including such mundane things as bicycles, bicycles with trailer, 'bents and so on, they simple do not belong on public roads. If I as a cyclist  freak out every time a car overtakes,  then I would simply not belong on a road with motor traffic. I believe the same should apply to horse/rider combinations and bicycles.

+1 to tolerance.

Speaking of tolerance - why should I tolerate an incompetent and not roadworthy horse/rider combination? Certainly nobody should be asked to tolerate an unlit bicycle on country lanes or anywhere else after nightfalls.

However, in the real life, this mindset doesn't really help. If I meet a  horse/rider combination I make sure they are aware of me, ask if they are ok and whether it is save for all to go long and mind their own business happily on a rural lane. And more often than not there is no problem at all. Yet the problematic encounters are those I remember best...

PS: Lee, I really liked your description here  horse/rider combination = 'motorbikes controlled by rudimentary and buggy AI software', see:

I'm amazed humans sit on horses at all.
I see a lot of them round here as my route takes me past a stable.  To me they seem like Motobikes controlled by rudimentary and buggy AI software, and some riders seem to be engaged in a constant struggle to keep the things from having a Horsey melt-down.
I remember the "Faccombe 4" were out cycling and were asked directions by a Hampshire Horsey type woman.  When we reached for a map, she asked us not to get the map out "or the horse will go Spastic".  It got spooked by paper apparently.  Yes, paper.

[tonycollinet]

But if a horse/rider combination can't deal with everyday traffic, including such mundane things as bicycles, bicycles with trailer, 'bents and so on, they simple do not belong on public roads.

Frankly, I think that is bullshit. If we accept that horses are acceptable on the road, then we have to accept that sometimes they are going to be spooked by us - especially if we ride somthing unusual. It is simply not possible to train horses to not react to everything they may find on the road, no matter how rare. See post above by feline about the training necessary for police horses. This is not possible for most horses, and even when done is not bombproof.

[henshaw11]

+1

>But if a horse/rider combination can't deal with everyday traffic, including such mundane things as bicycles, bicycles with trailer, 'bents and so on, they simple do not belong on public roads.

To my mind - that argument sounds like a variation on the  'cyclists shouldn't be on the road'.

We often have to weave around obstacles (ok, holes) in the road that we may not see 'til the last moment - hence the requirement of leaving space when overtaking. Isn't being on the road around horses just another variant on the theme - they're just more arbitrarily unpredicatable.

Pedestrians, cyclists and horse(+rider) all have a right to use the road - vs car drivers who use it under license.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Hopefully your opinion is slightly better informed now.

But not changed.

Frightened by a piece of paper FFS.  Do you think it is a sensible choice to take a horse that can be easily spooked into an environment containing paper (or whatever weird things that sets off horses)?  I think it is silly, as I stated previously.

Horse riders and other forumites can do whatever they like but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

[Jaded]

Drivers have killed people with sneezes and wasps.

Perhaps they should be banned from the roads too.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Wasps are dangerous! Commence a wasp extermination programme immediately!

[matthew]

The one time I have been properly upset by another cyclists behaviour was around horses.

I was riding course open on a parish family cycle ride, 10miles of country roads with marshalled junctions to assist the families through. Basically I was waking up the marshals at each junction when I got there. I was then due to make a second circuit collecting the signboards until I caught the back where my father was TEC fixing punctures etc.

However the year in question there was an obviously keen cycling family of father and circa 14 and 10 year old sons. The older of the sons basically sat on my rear wheel the whole way round (I was a 19 year old student back for the summer and 80 miles/week commuting). Anyway we were approx 2/3rds of the way round when I came up behind a pair of horses on a narrow road with an oncoming car. Therefore I sat up to wait till I could hug the right hand verge, cue this lad undertaking me and then passing between the horses and the oncoming vehicle.

I still got back before him, as mentioned I was course open and the route had changed from the previous year. I got to the change and had to wake up the marshal from his car to direct the major to minor right turn, a short cut. 

Instead of heading straight out for my second circuit, I waited for his father to arrive, when I described the incident and explained why Son no. 1 who was in front of Dad had not arrived at the finish yet.

[Nonsteeler]

If we accept that horses are acceptable on the road, then we have to accept that sometimes they are going to be spooked by us - especially if we ride somthing unusual. It is simply not possible to train horses to not react to everything they may find on the road, no matter how rare. See post above by feline about the training necessary for police horses. This is not possible for most horses, and even when done is not bombproof.

I beg to differ here. Clearly I do not advocate banning cyclists, horses or 'bents from public roads. At same time, the use of a public road is not unconditional for any type of transport. It is a fair assumption that anyone on a public road can deal with common occurrences of the traffic and the environment, otherwise he/she shouldn't be there. Also I assume you would agree that not any type of bicycle  and bicycle rider is road worthy (or for that matter, car/driver, boot /pedestrian). I believe that the same argument is in principle applicable to horse/rider combinations.

We often have to weave around obstacles (ok, holes) in the road that we may not see 'til the last moment - hence the requirement of leaving space when overtaking. Isn't being on the road around horses just another variant on the theme - they're just more arbitrarily unpredicatable.

On the one hand the standard for a acceptable car/driver or bicycle/bicycle rider combination is quite clear (you mention giving enough space while overtaking cyclists). But  TBH I have no idea what makes acceptable horse/rider combination with regard road worthiness. What do you regard here as the mini. set of responsibilities for rider and her/his horse on a public? Or, from my perspective, what kind of criteria are there to judge road worthiness of horse/rider combination?

On a more sceptical note, what makes me wonder if it is really acceptable to have horse/rider combinations out there that freak out if they see a bicycle (esp . after you make your self known, the horse can see you etc etc)? There is no doubt that I have responsibilities towards fellow road user but does Highway Code expect that I have to tolerate any dangerous behaviour of a horse/rider combination? I doubt. But I haven't read relevant sections either.

To my mind - that argument sounds like a variation on the  'cyclists shouldn't be on the road'.

Not sure if I understand what you mean. I assume you would agree that there unacceptable cyclist/bicycle combinations. They arguable do not belong on a public road. What does status of being/not being motorist/horse rider whatever change here?