Author Topic: Flags - where to buy  (Read 10928 times)

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #25 on: 18 March, 2011, 09:59:06 am »
I use a lass called Helen at Raindrop Kites

She is extremely helpful and will (within reason) make flags to your designs

Very reasonably priced as well!

This one is £16 including reflective tails:



Like them - now I just have to think of a design.

Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #26 on: 18 March, 2011, 11:19:17 am »
I wasn't going to respond to this since I'm against the use of flags but didn't want to defy the OP by arguing about it anyway. However, since the discussion is underway regardless...

My own bike is low (I can balance on both hands at traffic lights) but I have also done a little distance on trikes borrowed from Laidback & friends - about 600 miles off the top of my head, including central Edinburgh rush hour commuting. Never with a flag.

Wouldn't want you to get cross.
But... I have to report that since I hoisted the flag the amount of abuse and near passing has definitely reduced. I think it weeds out the desire to teach me a lesson for 'being invisible', and the height sense secures a tad more roadspace.

My experience is that small changes in the way you ride can make overwhelming changes to the way people drive., so I'd be very interested to know whether because you know you're flying a flag you ride differently on the road in even the smallest way.

This is the only way I can readily account for it changing the behaviour of motorists, since (to lay down some anecdata) I would say that it's often impossible for drivers who pass me to do so leaving any extra room. However if I rode more passively, I've no doubt there would be a lot more close passing. Just a suggestion.

They also seem like a good idea for very low recumbents when riding in city traffic, for edge cases like the overtake-into-space-occupied-by-the-bike manoeuvre....

I've never felt the need for one on the Streetmachine, but it's as high as the average car, so I wouldn't expect to.

If you think about it for a minute, the extra inches of the Streetmachine will often be overwhelmed by extra inches (or feet) of following vehicles. As I often remark to concerned parties in central Edinburgh, they are no more visible through the 4x4 or van behind them than I would be.

This type of vehicle makes up a sufficiently high proportion of city traffic that I think we would see these same "edge cases" impacting normal riders if it was a genuine threat. Yet I've never heard of someone being hit in town because somebody overtook into the space they were occupying. (That's not to say it doesn't happen, just that it's not worth worrying about IMO compared with the "usual suspects").

I think flags on some recumbents are useful - particularly on Trices - when you are in heavy traffic.  It allows cars that aren't directly behind you, or cars in front of you, know that you aren't an empty space.

All of the examples I can think of are instances where the flag might mitigate bad cycling. For example, if you are riding in heavy traffic, you may certainly end up creating a "gap" beside a junction when everything stops. In this case we can see why it's important to ride in the *right* tyre track such that oncoming right-turning traffic can see you. If someone commits to turning into the percieved gap at almost 30mph, they probably won't see the flag in enough time to stop anyway.

That's not to say that having the flag does you any harm, providing you ride as if you don't have it (key point alert). It's just important to understand that the edge case where it saves you is extremely edge indeed (like having a third tail light which saved you compared with having only two, IMO).

On the trike, I am normally going slower than the rest of the traffic. If a car moves out to pass me, it is quite possible that a car following him is completely unaware of me until the first car has moved out. Due to the speed difference that can create a hazard that will not exist with a low car.

Imagine that instead of a trike, you are actually a set of cones around a work pit. Urban cones are often small - certainly no higher than you are - and will not be seen by any following vehicle. When the first car moves out to avoid the pit, will every subsequent vehicle ignore this, drive straight on and crash down to ignominious destruction?

No - in fact I'd argue if anything that being an "unknown hazard" forcing the lead car to move far out is actually  *better* for your safety than if following vehicles know they are being held up by a cyclist.

Similarly - imagine you are being overtaken by an HGV. I can easily accept that in some scenarios the driver might be able to see the flag and not you, but think about the two alternative courses of action: the driver can't see if he's past you or not, or the driver can see a bit of flag and has to estimate whether that distance is further back than the end of the trailer. In which scenario might they err on the side of caution?

Another difference - there are places I can filter on the trike. This means I put myself alongside other vehicles where a low car will not, and hence possibly in an unexpected way.

Yes - going back to the previous example, you (by which I mean, "someone") might choose to ride up the inside of a left-indicating HGV. If the driver doesn't have the appropriate mirrors, it's easily possible that they might see the flag but not the rider. Yet this scenario is predicated on the cyclist choosing virtual suicide.

What concerns me about this idea is not so much that a flag will make filtering more dangerous, but that having a flag causes people to filter much more dangerously. IMO, there should be no scenario while filtering that relies in any way on the traffic you are overtaking having seen you - that's horrendously risky. (Even though in reality, so many people ride like this every day that we must accept it to be only *relatively* horrendously risky...)

So, while I flinch from the idea of telling you I don't think anyone should have a flag, I think on balance (as with universal use of hi-viz, helmets etc) it comes with more baggage than advantage for you and for everyone else.

(Why does everyone ask me about flags? It's not because they haven't seen me but because they have seen recumbent riders who've gone that way).

Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #27 on: 18 March, 2011, 11:40:11 am »
Yeah, sorry Tony!  Hope you enjoyed the digression anyway.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #28 on: 18 March, 2011, 01:01:06 pm »
As I said in the OP - feel free to let fly. I've got sufficient answers to my question.

I actually agree with most of what has been said. I'm not flying a flag to make myself safer.

and, @EF,  I certainly don't filter up the inside of HGV's - or anywhere else where I need to be seen to be safe (at least until I'm in front of the vehicle I've filtered past)

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #29 on: 18 March, 2011, 01:06:01 pm »
I rode that trice, didn't feel a need for a flag.

Riding with the trailer feels wrong without one. 

I think it's because the trice is still wrapped compactly around the rider, so drivers giving it an automatic level of space will be correct.  The trailer is yards out back: they need to pull out sooner, and it's worth alerting them to that fact with an eyecatcher.

Mind you, that may be my feeling -- I've never been shunted by a driver who failed that move.  It's just too far away from me to want to leave abandoned to the cruel world...
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
OpenStreetMap UK & IRL Streetmap & Topo: ravenfamily.org/andyg/maps updates weekly.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #30 on: 18 March, 2011, 01:35:12 pm »
If you think about it for a minute, the extra inches of the Streetmachine will often be overwhelmed by extra inches (or feet) of following vehicles. As I often remark to concerned parties in central Edinburgh, they are no more visible through the 4x4 or van behind them than I would be.

The difference is that if you're behind a tinted 4x4 or van or whatever you can't see through, you can reasonably expect there to be a small car or (upright) [motor]cyclist or something in front of it, and act accordingly.  If you're behind a Fiesta or similar, and can't see anything through its windscreens, you're likely to assume there's nothing there.

As I say, it's an edge case, and one that's probably more likely to end in embarrassment and aggressive use of the horn than instant splatty death.  That doesn't mean that a flag isn't going to help mitigate it, in the same way that (for example) wearing a hi-vis jacket may help with a minority of SMIDSYs.  Whether you consider the risk significant enough to bother with a flag, or hi-vis, or a helmet, or gloves, or assertive road positioning, or sticking to the off-road paths, etc, etc should be a personal choice.

I don't feel the need for a flag on the Streetmachine.  I've not ridden something really low in traffic for long enough to form an opinion (though I can guess what that opinion may be).  I'll let you know after n+1.

And of course some people might use a flag for non-safety reasons, in the same way that people might chose to wear a helmet because it's a good way to mount a light or camera on their head.  It's like spokey-dokeys for recumbents.  :)

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #31 on: 19 March, 2011, 06:45:13 pm »
I found that spare England car flags worked a treat, as does the spare German flag I picked up in Düsseldorf. I think that both together do create a bit of drag but I do feel they are a helpful thing to have when queuing in heavy traffic.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #32 on: 19 March, 2011, 07:10:41 pm »
I suppose that also has the advantage of making you appear to be on the same 'side' as some of the worst drivers.  In England anyway, I can't imagine it works that way anywhere else.

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #33 on: 20 March, 2011, 08:59:21 pm »
I have ordered a raindrop kites custom flag with Osprey on. (Reminder of summer hols)

Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #34 on: 22 March, 2011, 12:17:43 pm »
Hampshire Flags have a very good selection as well
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #35 on: 22 March, 2011, 07:49:09 pm »
i was riding the antrotech the other and a moterist stopped and told me i was hard to see as i was so low down ::-) ??? . he suggested a flag would help :facepalm:.
the slower you go the more you see

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #36 on: 22 March, 2011, 08:02:43 pm »
Amazing he spotted you really :facepalm:
Getting there...

Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #37 on: 22 March, 2011, 09:12:41 pm »
Last person said that (my new 26" D-tek special is on max seat recline) I collared em and had quite a discussion about eye testing and compulsory re tests for a licence if they couldn't see me, they were glad to escape the little bearded looney  ;D

i was riding the antrotech the other and a moterist stopped and told me i was hard to see as i was so low down ::-) ??? . he suggested a flag would help :facepalm:.
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #38 on: 23 March, 2011, 09:14:03 pm »
 ;D
the slower you go the more you see

Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #39 on: 23 March, 2011, 09:32:25 pm »
If I didn't have a flag, I'd have no pole to mount my little Skellington on:

Have you been out today?
If I had a baby elephant, it could help me wash the car. If I had a car.

See my recycled crafts at www.wastenotwantit.co.uk

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #40 on: 24 March, 2011, 12:10:56 am »
Mounting skellingtons, fairy lights, windmills and so on is the best reason for having a flag, IMHO.   :thumbsup:

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #41 on: 07 April, 2011, 08:24:02 pm »
I have ordered a raindrop kites custom flag with Osprey on. (Reminder of summer hols)

And it has arrived:




clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #42 on: 07 April, 2011, 08:51:59 pm »
Is it a flag or a sail? :demon:

Actually, it looks pretty cool.
Getting there...

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #43 on: 07 April, 2011, 09:04:35 pm »
Must admit - I've thought of having a string from the back corner to the rack - for when the wind is behind me.   ;D

Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #44 on: 07 April, 2011, 09:17:27 pm »
What I want is a Breton flag to replace the one I had stolen, Hampshire Flags have just what I want  - but - it comes to around £18 with vat and postage and I don't really want to go that high
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #45 on: 08 April, 2011, 11:17:49 pm »
Try   Hampshire Flag

Both Hampshire and Breton flags quarter size 45 x22 cm, and less than a tenner!


Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #46 on: 08 April, 2011, 11:40:26 pm »
Unfortunately their prices are ex vat and postage is almost a fiver, brings it to about £17 +
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #47 on: 09 April, 2011, 12:41:30 pm »
Unfortunately their prices are ex vat and postage is almost a fiver, brings it to about £17 +

A perfect excuse to go on holiday to Bretonshire and get one there then!
If I had a baby elephant, it could help me wash the car. If I had a car.

See my recycled crafts at www.wastenotwantit.co.uk

Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #48 on: 09 April, 2011, 01:30:15 pm »
I am in love with the place but (always a flaming but) I am this year toiling in deepest dungeons to take me, Barbara and two trikes on the Bike Bus to Spain
                                               :P
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Flags - where to buy
« Reply #49 on: 11 April, 2011, 12:44:29 pm »
We're off to Brittany at the end of the month.  Do you want me to keep an eye open for Breton flags for you?  What size do you want?
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor