Author Topic: PowerTap: Rapto midracer vs drop bar "strava bike"  (Read 5601 times)

PowerTap: Rapto midracer vs drop bar "strava bike"
« on: 23 September, 2012, 10:28:44 am »
Hey all,

Major geek weakness I'm afraid! I picked up a PowerTap over the summer and couldn't resist trialling the RaptoBike Midracer against my drop-bar upright "Strava bike"...

http://mccraw.co.uk/raptomid-power-comparison/

I discovered two things: the sky is blue and the recumbent is (much) faster. Of course, my Strava bike isn't a recumbent is it...?  ;)

I've tried to be frank about the limitations of the test protocol and also the obvious things I'm not measuring (like biomechanical efficiency).



Of course, to make this comparison with the many Laid-Back recumbents I'll need a bunch of rims and spokes and to get handy at lightning wheel builds  :'(

Re: PowerTap: Rapto midracer vs drop bar "strava bike"
« Reply #1 on: 23 September, 2012, 03:00:25 pm »
Quote
In practice, recumbent riders notoriously experience slower climbing than this calculation would suggest,

This is not really in line with what you write before that. You make clear that on the flat the recumbent only has to put out 150W where the upright has to put out 250W for the same speed. This makes very clear that although you are doing the same speed, your efforts are incomparable. Going up a hill just makes this painfully clear.
If the recumbent rider and the upright rider are really comparable, the recumbenteer would leave the upright in the dust on the flat.
Forgive me Father, for I have sinned. It has been too many days since I have ridden through the night with a brevet card in my pocket...

Kim

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Re: PowerTap: Rapto midracer vs drop bar "strava bike"
« Reply #2 on: 23 September, 2012, 03:25:55 pm »
I, for one, experience almost identical climbing speeds on equivalently weighted recumbent and DF bikes...  (I tend to use both roughly equally, and stay in the saddle and spin when climbing.)

Wothill

  • over the hills and far away
Re: PowerTap: Rapto midracer vs drop bar "strava bike"
« Reply #3 on: 23 September, 2012, 07:36:17 pm »
Well done, EF, for putting all this together and getting round to some serious testing! If memory serves, your findings on the flat are comparable with other comparison of recumbents and uprights. As you say, uphill introduces more factors and biomechanical ones are perhaps the most difficult to measure. Unlike Kim, I am sure I still go faster uphill on an upright even though I have several years of riding mostly recumbents. Problem is, it is only subjective, but on a hill that I ride very frequently (roughly 8 - 10% gradient) my speed on the upright is consistently 1.5 - 2kph (10%) faster at a pace that I would describe as 'hard sustainable'. That's the difficulty, though, and you raise exactly the same questions: can I actually sustain more power on the upright because of the riding position? And, if riding a long distance (eg long audaxes) would that greater power output mean that I was tired more quickly because, overall, my body was working harder, or would I just do the same ride quicker (depending on how hilly it was) on an upright. (An academic question for me because my back would soon stop me riding on an upright.)

Assuming the more power-on-an-upright theory is right, there is at least one other possible explanation which is to do with what happens on the two types of bike when you press hard on the pedals. On an upright, some of the energy you produce that doesn't go into turning the pedals might reduce your weight on the saddle; on a recumbent, you just compress whatever seat pad you have and possibly cause slight deflections in the portions of the seat you are pressing against. I suspect that energy spent doing the former is more recoverable (during the next part of the crank revolution) whereas on the recumbent you just heat up your seat. You might be able to reduce this by for example pulling on your arms (depending on what steering configuration your bent has, but I doubt if you can get all of it back.

I can't think of a way of testing this directly but an extension of your experiment might be interesting: you could get several people to do a maximum effort test up a hill (wouldn't actually have to be up a hill but might make it easier to get back to the start) and compare the power they can sustain (eg for a minute or maybe 2 minutes) on a recumbent with what they can do on an upright. You would probably get differences depending on whether they were practised bent riders but if each individual did a few of these all-out-effort tests and you had a few volunteers it might produce interesting results. I am sure others have done similar tests but I have never seen very convincing results, eg very small samples, etc.

Happy researching!
Alf
Let me know if I can help in any further testing - sounds great!

Re: PowerTap: Rapto midracer vs drop bar "strava bike"
« Reply #4 on: 24 September, 2012, 04:05:36 pm »
Quote
In practice, recumbent riders notoriously experience slower climbing than this calculation would suggest,

This is not really in line with what you write before that. You make clear that on the flat the recumbent only has to put out 150W where the upright has to put out 250W for the same speed. This makes very clear that although you are doing the same speed, your efforts are incomparable. Going up a hill just makes this painfully clear.
If the recumbent rider and the upright rider are really comparable, the recumbenteer would leave the upright in the dust on the flat.

I don't think there's any contradiction?

First, as you say it's important to point out the disparity in effort between an upright and DF travelling at the same speed on the flat.

However, just as you would expect to travel faster on a recumbent when it's flat, many people (such as myself) would assume that you'd climb at the same speed on either type of bike, or at least any difference is down to weight - but this isn't often the case (present company excepted!).

For instance, I never managed to climb the main hill on my commute faster on any recumbent than on my DF (about a half mile of 5% grade) - it wasn't even close. This despite doing ~200 miles a week laid back and almost none upright. The weight difference was accounted for. What's going on?

Assuming the more power-on-an-upright theory is right, there is at least one other possible explanation which is to do with what happens on the two types of bike when you press hard on the pedals. On an upright, some of the energy you produce that doesn't go into turning the pedals might reduce your weight on the saddle; on a recumbent, you just compress whatever seat pad you have and possibly cause slight deflections in the portions of the seat you are pressing against. I suspect that energy spent doing the former is more recoverable (during the next part of the crank revolution) whereas on the recumbent you just heat up your seat. You might be able to reduce this by for example pulling on your arms (depending on what steering configuration your bent has, but I doubt if you can get all of it back.

Good concept. Of course if we had access to a lab who could do gas analysis on a rider we could really nail this down, but it's a bit more difficult in the real world. Even if we had power cranks (which might cover the drive flex) I'm not sure that they'd be useful for measuring things like use of your arms (which the MBB crowd are big on).

As I said in one of the comments, my average HR on recumbents is significantly lower than on DF (which again is significantly lower than foot racing, where you use more than just your legs). For me that's highly suggestive, but how to measure it..?

Re: PowerTap: Rapto midracer vs drop bar "strava bike"
« Reply #5 on: 24 September, 2012, 05:45:09 pm »
Quote
In practice, recumbent riders notoriously experience slower climbing than this calculation would suggest,

This is not really in line with what you write before that. You make clear that on the flat the recumbent only has to put out 150W where the upright has to put out 250W for the same speed. This makes very clear that although you are doing the same speed, your efforts are incomparable. Going up a hill just makes this painfully clear.
If the recumbent rider and the upright rider are really comparable, the recumbenteer would leave the upright in the dust on the flat.

I don't think there's any contradiction?

Not a contradiction, but the calculations suggest a lot slower climbing on a bent. Both because of the weight and of the effort the recumbent rider is used to put out. Saying bents experience a lot slower climbing than the calculations suggest is saying that bents experience a lot slower climbing than the calculations -that suggest a lot slower climbing- suggest.
I'm fine with 20mph and I don't need to produce 250W for that. Of course I'm going to lose big time uphill from DF-riders that are used to produce that kind of power, and have lighter bikes.

Quote
First, as you say it's important to point out the disparity in effort between an upright and DF travelling at the same speed on the flat.

However, just as you would expect to travel faster on a recumbent when it's flat, many people (such as myself) would assume that you'd climb at the same speed on either type of bike, or at least any difference is down to weight - but this isn't often the case (present company excepted!).

For instance, I never managed to climb the main hill on my commute faster on any recumbent than on my DF (about a half mile of 5% grade) - it wasn't even close. This despite doing ~200 miles a week laid back and almost none upright. The weight difference was accounted for. What's going on?

The climb is so short you can do it anaerobic and you're not able to do that on the bent?
I have a short climb like that around here and I have been able to do it at 20kph minimum speed, but when a bit tired I have trouble keeping my speed over 15kph. The latter is what I can do aerobic (long distance).
I do not own a DF so I have no idea with what speed I could do it with that.
Forgive me Father, for I have sinned. It has been too many days since I have ridden through the night with a brevet card in my pocket...

Re: PowerTap: Rapto midracer vs drop bar "strava bike"
« Reply #6 on: 24 September, 2012, 07:51:18 pm »
Not a contradiction, but the calculations suggest a lot slower climbing on a bent. Both because of the weight and of the effort the recumbent rider is used to put out. Saying bents experience a lot slower climbing than the calculations suggest is saying that bents experience a lot slower climbing than the calculations -that suggest a lot slower climbing- suggest.

OK, I understand the mix-up now. By 'the calculation' I meant
Code: [Select]
recumbentSpeed = DFSpeed * ((rider+DFWeight) / (rider+bentWeight)), where the rider is the same guy and DFSpeed is how fast they can climb on their upright bike. Not the 150W = 250W on the flat statement beforehand.

The climb is so short you can do it anaerobic and you're not able to do that on the bent?
I have a short climb like that around here and I have been able to do it at 20kph minimum speed, but when a bit tired I have trouble keeping my speed over 15kph. The latter is what I can do aerobic (long distance).
I do not own a DF so I have no idea with what speed I could do it with that.

Or perhaps my anaerobic threshold is lower on a recumbent (limited muscle groups involved?).

As I added in a comment on the post, I can do a 10km foot race just under 45 mins with an average HR of 181bpm, much higher than the average I saw on a 20min TT effort on the RaptoBike (166bpm), my DF bike being somewhere in between.

I don't know how to actually interpret this difference, but it is a difference all the same.

Re: PowerTap: Rapto midracer vs drop bar "strava bike"
« Reply #7 on: 24 September, 2012, 10:51:00 pm »
My understanding is because your more streached out and you sit on your bum, you cannot use your gluts as much.
This lowers you max power output as all/most of the power is from your quads, I've read somewhere of figures of ~10-15% down on power.
This is why you need to train your bent legs and why its so much harder to blow your breathing vs legs on a bent, fewer muscle groups working.

So on the flat where you tend work in the aero zone, aerodymamic resistance is greater than rolling resistance.
This gives a bent an avantage due to lower wind resistance, hence bents are faster than upwrongs with the same power in.
But once you hit a hill and your speed drops, rolling resistance plus slope resistance greatly outweigh wind resistance.
Then it come down to pure power, thats where a bent rider suffers badly vs an upwrong rider.


Re: PowerTap: Rapto midracer vs drop bar "strava bike"
« Reply #8 on: 30 September, 2012, 09:31:52 am »
The only reason you actually notice the slower speed uphill is because on long drags uprighters you left well behind then start catching up with you - until the next downhill.  This is only on long drags - on rolling stuff it's often on an uphill that you finally overtake the uprights you've been following, due to the increased aero.

Kim

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Re: PowerTap: Rapto midracer vs drop bar "strava bike"
« Reply #9 on: 30 September, 2012, 04:24:29 pm »
This is only on long drags - on rolling stuff it's often on an uphill that you finally overtake the uprights you've been following, due to the increased aero.

I never get tired of doing that.  Being able to roller-coaster through dips that have the Fast Boys On Lightweight Bling™ honking is one of recumbent cycling's little delights.

Of course, it doesn't work when some bastard puts a 90 degree bend / traffic lights / cattle grid at the bottom.

On long drags, I'm going to be slow anyway.  My lungs to lard ratio means that the bike could weigh nothing and I'd still be slow.  However I find that since riding a 'bent strongly discourages stopping on climbs, I'm quite good at knowing what is a sustainable pace, and often tortoise my way past some of the hares on longer climbs.

recumbentim

  • Only 6 SR,s No hyper yet
Re: PowerTap: Rapto midracer vs drop bar "strava bike"
« Reply #10 on: 30 September, 2012, 04:39:13 pm »
Brilliant work E fix been reading this and meant to do a post.
I once in 1993 got my mates motor bike  Flip fairing and fitted it to the front of my KingCycle and did rolling tests down a long slope to see if we could get a higher max speed . I am afraid to say it was inconclusive . In those days I wished I had gone to HPV meet to learn more , but the seeds were sown as you know?---------- Never did get a proper tail and faring for the KingCycle but it was a fast bike?
 Tried the Rapto in the spring and thanks to Daivd  At Laid Back for that , but it was a case of better the devil you  know for me as I found the tiller in my face a bit trcky.
 So on to my point and Jonny T just mentioned it. It is a personal thing to me as you , Arivd and Wothill dont seem to have this problem?
  MOMENTUM = MASS X VELOCITY.
 
  One of our great Pros , who never took Drugs , said the only way to climb faster was less weight or more power. So if I reduced my weight radically by say 8kgs I will in theory climb faster . But I will decend slower and possibly be slowers on the rolling stuff?
  So there must be a point where weight and power balance each other out?
  Suppose what I need to do is go up and down a hill with a power meter  then loose 10Kgs and do it again?