Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => GPS => Topic started by: Polar Bear on 06 April, 2011, 08:40:43 pm

Title: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Polar Bear on 06 April, 2011, 08:40:43 pm
What's the best way to do this please?   We would like to be able to plot a route on the computer, download it onto the GPS then select it for navigation purposes.

Please keep instructions simple  :D  :thumbsup:   
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: tonycollinet on 06 April, 2011, 08:46:21 pm
For the route plotting I like bikehike. Mainly due to the ability to "auto follow" roads on the google map, but if necessary plot accross non "auto follow" tracks etc on the OS map.

From there you can download the route as a GPX file, to put onto your gps.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 06 April, 2011, 08:46:52 pm
PB, don't the methods outlined in this thread suit?

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=45686.0 (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=45686.0)
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Polar Bear on 06 April, 2011, 08:49:12 pm
Well, they may do but we're complete novices at this and have no idea where to start.   What program / app to use, what we might need to buy in software terms, or sites online that allow creation of routes with a good base map, etc.   

Totally green...   :)
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Greenbank on 06 April, 2011, 08:50:59 pm
Before you can get any suggestions we need to know:-

What GPS do you have, it differs greatly whether you've got
a) a (mapping) eTrex like the Legend or Vista
b) an older non-mapping eTrex like the basic yellow eTrex H or a Geko
c) a non-mapping Edge 205/305
d) or a mapping Edge 605/705/800?
e) something else like a Dakota or Oregon.

Also, do you want to:
a) follow an arrow that tells you which direction to go with no instructions
b) be prompted with at key places with preprogrammed instructions such as "turn left here"
c) look at the map screen and follow a line
d) have a combination of (b) and (c).
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Polar Bear on 06 April, 2011, 08:54:19 pm
Ah, I see.  Thanks.   

Unit:  Garmin GPS 60CSx
Has europe basemap and Andy's Munkymaps which is nice.

Combination of b and c would be preferable please.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: DrMekon on 07 April, 2011, 11:29:40 am
What you are describing is often called the jwo method on here. The way it works is that you create a route (wiggly line) in bike hike, and import that into mapsource. You then make a waypoint for every routesheet instruction, and name it according to some convention (SimonP has talkied of standardizing these so that he can write a programme that automagically turns gpx files into routesheets). Look at Jo's (nee Jwo) excellent webpage for an example of the naming convention (Using GPS to navigate Audax Routes (http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~jwo/landserf/audax/)). If you name them like this

01 ST
02 TL
03 XO
04 BR

etc. then you can use mapsource to make a route out of the waypoints. You then make that route invisible. Save the file and transfer it to the GPS. Tell the GPS to navigate the route, but use off road mode. That way, (if you include waypoint at next on the map screen) you get the nice little wiggly track plus turn instructions (from the waypoint names) and beeps from the invisible route.

Francis' excellent pages give the same method too GPS Links and Information (http://www.aukadia.net/gps/index.htm) particularly - (http://www.aukadia.net/gps/lwg_20.htm)

Huge thanks to SimonP for passing all this on to me. His GPX files are invariably a work of art, and I wouldn't find my GPS nearly so useful had he not walked me through all this.

I've missed out loads of detail about compressing numbers of points in routes, etc, but you'll find all that on Francis' excellent pages.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Polar Bear on 07 April, 2011, 12:02:55 pm
Hmmm.  I was sort of hoping that using GPS was not going to be a geek fest.  :(

So, I need to learn how to use bikehike, install and learn how to use mapsource, then I can do something.   Surely there must be a more straightforward approach?   

<daunted and put off by the complexity  :( > 
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Greenbank on 07 April, 2011, 12:08:06 pm
I'm sure there is, there is a much easier way with the Edge 605/705/800 series. I don't know anything about the GPS 60CSx to know how best to do what you want to do.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Polar Bear on 07 April, 2011, 12:25:46 pm
Just as a test I've created a 1 mile gpx test file using bikehike.  I've loaded this down to my computer and then onto the memory card of my gps.  Unfortunately the gps doesn't seem to be able to find this.   Any ideas why please?
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: DrMekon on 07 April, 2011, 12:29:32 pm
Hmmm.  I was sort of hoping that using GPS was not going to be a geek fest.  :(

So, I need to learn how to use bikehike, install and learn how to use mapsource, then I can do something.   Surely there must be a more straightforward approach?   

<daunted and put off by the complexity  :( > 

It might sound complex, but it's not when you have the workflow sorted. The problem is that there are several ways to do the same thing, each of which has some limitations.

Drawing a wiggly line, exporting it, opening it in mapsource, and compressing the number of points to make a route is a doddle. If you don't want turn indications and instructions and are happy to follow the green line, you are done.

Adding instructions does take time - you are basically learning the route before you go. In that sense, I find it helpful. Clicking on the map containing the wiggly line in mapsource and adding waypoints is utterly simple. Following a naming convention is simple. Making a route is a case of highlighting the waypoints and right clicking IIRC. Sending it to GPS is a button press. Navigating using off road is a choice you make when you select the route - really, none of it is hard once you get into a flow. However, it is time consuming compared to relying on the routing info in the maps and letting the device do it for you like on a car GPS. The reason I don't do that is that I don't trust the maps or the device to route for me. Maybe I should.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Polar Bear on 07 April, 2011, 12:31:02 pm
Unfortunately I've failed on the first button press.  See my previous post.    :(
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: fuaran on 07 April, 2011, 12:38:40 pm
Just as a test I've created a 1 mile gpx test file using bikehike.  I've loaded this down to my computer and then onto the memory card of my gps.  Unfortunately the gps doesn't seem to be able to find this.   Any ideas why please?
The 60CSx can't read GPX files on the memory card. You need to load the route to its internal memory. You can use software like GPSBabel or MapSource to load the route. Or you can install the Garmin Communicator Plugin, then use the option in Bikehike to download directly to the GPS unit.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Polar Bear on 07 April, 2011, 12:41:05 pm
Ah, I see.  that's a bit limiting innit.   

Thanks.  I'll faff later.   
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: PloddinPedro on 07 April, 2011, 12:53:07 pm
Hmmm.  I was sort of hoping that using GPS was not going to be a geek fest.  :(

So, I need to learn how to use bikehike, install and learn how to use mapsource, then I can do something.   Surely there must be a more straightforward approach?   

<daunted and put off by the complexity  :( > 
All the above posters have put forward excellent procedures, but like you suggest you are, I am technically challenged in GPS (as in so many other ways!)

I too started with a Map60CSx and Mapsource but after I discovered that the "autorouting" function in Garmin is not sufficiently reliable, in my opinion, I got into the habit of simply using Tracks.

You may have already discovered that Routes are a series of marks between which the GPS unit navigates according to a path of its own choosing; if you set it to "Follow Road" it will (mostly) take a path which conforms to the mapping contained in the unit. I say "mostly" because it will occasionally decide to "avoid a Highway" (if you have set it to do so and you do need to do this to avoid really major roads) typically when your preferred course takes you across a staggered crossroads of a major road; it then looks for a 90 degree crossroads of the major road and may go miles looking for one! Since the GPS unit uses different programming to the mapping software the path it will calculate may not agree with the path the mapping software generates on your PC screen.

The knowledgeable ones amongst us (see above) have ways of minimising this nuisance, usually I think involving the intelligent placing of extra waypoints, but I didn't learn this until after I'd become accustomed to using Tracks.

Tracks are lines you draw manually on whichever software you are using and transfer as such to the Map60; the unit doesn't do any work on them, it just displays them. You just watch the screen and make sure that the position arrow follows the line. In truth, you don't even need maps on the unit although this does make interpreting junctions in advance much easier when in motion on the bike. It's handy though if as occasionally happens, the unit "loses sight of" its map - the line is still there as a sort of back-up. You can also display more than one Track at a time, in different colours, so if there are options you want available when at that point in the ride - say, "shall I go short and hilly or long and flat?" this is easy to do (I admit however, that if you are using a Route, you can still display the option as a separate Track and achieve the same result.)

If you presently have no mapping software on your home PC (i.e. you don't have Mapsource or Memory Map, Anquet, etc.) I would not rush to buy any just yet. I bought Mapsource years ago when I got my Map60 and found I desired OS mapping on screen so much I subsequently bought Memory Map and now use that almost exclusively, so I don't have much experience using on-line mapping. At the time I made these investments, my Broadband was so crap, I couldn't rely on the on-line stuff either, and this would still be a factor in my decision if I were starting again, since my desktop Memory Map is so much smoother and faster than on-line stuff. But things are changing fast and the free on-line stuff is much improved. You should get the advice of others more skilled in this area, but I have noticed this, which I think looks interesting for example: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=45801.0 although I haven't explored it enough yet to know.

I'd recommend you play around with Tracks versus Routes first to see which you like best. The Track has the advantage of cluttering the screen less; I found that the pop up instructions would often obscure the map just when I was trying to interpret it, at a complex junction say, and for me, it's easier just to read the map as if it was an conventional paper one; I even use it in North Up rather than the car satnav style of Track Up where the map swings around as you turn. I admit I may be the minority here but you should try-before-you-buy as with all the options! I suspect using Tracks consumes less power too than using Route navigation, so that's another plus in my book if I don't have to change batteries so often, although that's really a matter of self- organisation: change in advance at Controls, for example.

Composing a Track on your PC may seem a bit tedious but I have found that with a little practice, it's fairly quick and it has the merit of being simple. I find it also very helpful to review the journey to gain some familiarity before the ride and this follows naturally if you're drawing a line to follow.

As a P.S. - the Map60 is a heavy lump, especially with non lithium batteries (Energizer Lithiums are the best of the diposables, in my experience) so make sure the bike mount is firm. Put some Vaseline or similar on the lugs between the cradle and the bar mount - there will be movement here and the lugs grind away and snap - if you see white dust, this is happening. Also, always attach a lanyard as a back up. Be aware that the Map60 has a reputation for shutting down if subjected to heavy vibration; typically, when hammering downhill over rough surfaced Tarmac; it helps if it's not mounted horizontal but angled slightly up at the front; if it's dead flat, it tends to rock rapidly back and forth and it really doesn't like this!

In other respects, the Map60 is a great unit - good reception, easy buttons even with winter gloves, fair sized, legible screen, widely customisable. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: rafletcher on 07 April, 2011, 01:01:44 pm
I'm sure there is, there is a much easier way with the Edge 605/705/800 series.

I've probably been told beofore, but like PB I'm a complete novice at this - so could you please expand on that comment for me? I have a 705.   :)
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Greenbank on 07 April, 2011, 01:19:38 pm
I'm sure there is, there is a much easier way with the Edge 605/705/800 series.

I've probably been told beofore, but like PB I'm a complete novice at this - so could you please expand on that comment for me? I have a 705.   :)

More details in here: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=45572.msg898655#msg898655
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: rafletcher on 07 April, 2011, 03:18:13 pm
Ta, hadn't read all that thread  :) :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: phil d on 07 April, 2011, 04:20:28 pm
I would endorse much of what PloddinPedro says on page 1.  However.

I use an Etrex, not the Map60, but everything PP described sounds much the same.  I have found that the unit's interpretation of sensible routes (and the speed of calculating them if more than a mile or two) differed from mine, so I stopped using "on road" or follow road or whatever, and instead have the unit permanently set to off-road, using routes rather than tracks.

I find following a track on the unit quite fiddly, and often find that I have to scale up to get a closer look at junctions (maybe that's just an eyesight issue!).  I prefer to set a route with a waypoint at each junction or major direction change, and then follow the arrow.  This following the arrow can either be the full-screen compass, or a tiny arrow in the corner of the map; I set it to two data fields, with the one bing the direction arrow and the other being "distance to next".  So as long as I am always travelling in the general direction of the arrow I'm confident I'm on the correct path, and the distance to next gives me an idea how careful I need to be.  I've never really found the need for naming routepoints to give instructions, though identifying controls on audax routes can be helpful.

There is a range of ideas about how to set the routepoints - just before a junction, at the junction, just after the junction.  I prefer the latter, as the pointer starts to swing as I approach (unless it's straight on, of course).

With routes, where the track along the road becomes unimportant, there is a wider range of mapping software available.  I have Memory Map, but since it was introduced last week have been looking at the Ordnance Survey on-line mapping.  This lets you create a route (but not, I think, a track) and then drop it straight into the GPS.  It's quick and simple (and free), though (perhaps because of unfamiliarity) I have found the outputting of the route to be a little bit flakey.

So there's a contrary view.  The only way to find out which suits you best is to try it.  Enjoy.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: PloddinPedro on 07 April, 2011, 04:54:26 pm
Phil, your post serves to illustrate what I’ve long believed and that is that there are almost as many different ways of using these things as there are users!

I have never used the compass arrow method, since I surmised, perhaps wrongly, that it could react too slowly if I arrived at a junction at speed (well, relatively, in  my case!) My brain seems to be able to cope with reading a simple map and that’s about all. As an example, I always set it to “North Up” - if I’m heading in any direction other than north, I don’t find it a problem to interpret the map to determine whether I next turn right or left, etc. What befuddles me is having the screen suddenly switch to Track Up mode at junctions if I have it Routing, with the next turn warning enabled. I also find the direction arrow can often obscure the detail of the junction just at the critical time.

But I suspect that different models may treat the next turn display in different ways - I also have an Edge 705 and when it’s auto-routing, the next turn screen isn’t the same as my Map60. This may be a consequence of differing set-up options or different options available. Since I don’t use Routing much, I haven’t experimented.

The Edge provides another illustration of how different models vary, because I find it irritating to have irrelevant side street names overlaying and obscuring the Track line when I'm going through "built up" areas. So far as I can see, unlike the Map60, there's no way of turning this detail off without losing the small roads altogether.

The only real drawback to using Tracks that I should like to see improved is that the Track line is quite thin and doesn’t always show up as clearly as I should like. This is worse on the latest models - I have upgraded to the Map 62 with OS mapping and of course there is more mess on the screen now and the Track is harder to see. A wider, semi-opaque line would be good.

This is where Greenbank’s method might score, since it combines Track with “hidden” routing and s he says, you get the turn warnings as back -up to the Track. Although it does seem extra faffing to put in all the route viapoints.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: frankly frankie on 07 April, 2011, 05:24:44 pm
Hmmm.  I was sort of hoping that using GPS was not going to be a geek fest.  :(

PB, if your GPS was bought new it should have come with a software disk?
(I know some recent models don't, but I imagine the GPS60 does)

And are you using a Windows PC?

If yes to both those, on that disk are two important items, one is called 'Trip & Waypoint Manager' and the other is the USB driver.
The USB driver is essential (and there is a recently-updated version on Garmin's website which may be worth downloading).
T+WM is a pretty uninteresting program but it does make it easy to open GPX files (from any source, hopefully*) and transfer them to the GPS in the 'correct' way.  The learning curve is a lot steeper without it.
(If you have, or subsequently get, Mapsource - that is essentially T+WM beefed up.)
* actually, T+WM is a bit 'fussy' about imported GPX, still, you can but try.  (Actually, it's being highly standards-compliant - but the files we import often aren't.  Sorry, gone all geeky there for a moment.)

There is also a browser plugin called Garmin Communicator that might come in useful, if you use online planning sites and want to avoid Mapsource/T+WM.  I think it still needs that essential USB driver though.

You may have already discovered that Routes are a series of marks between which the GPS unit navigates according to a path of its own choosing; if you set it to "Follow Road" it will (mostly) take a path which conforms to the mapping contained in the unit. I say "mostly" because it will occasionally decide to "avoid a Highway" ... etc etc

I see this general comment rather often and I feel it gives the GPS and Routes generally something of a bad rep, by only telling half the story.
Yes all the above is true, "if you set it to Follow Road".

You don't say anything about how a GPS behaves if you don't set it to 'Follow Road'.
I would suggest that in this mode (confusingly described in the menus as 'Off Road') it behaves entirely predictably and does just what is wanted.

I can't help feeling that some people fall into the trap, early on, of configuring their GPS to 'use Follow Road' (or maybe, of foolishly ticking the 'Don't ask again' box).  Unfortunately, once you've done this (and I can see why it seems the obvious thing to do), you are never again given an opportunity to opt for the far more usable and understandable Direct (aka Off Road) mode - so missing out on near-50% of the GPS's functionality for ever more.

Far, far better to set it to 'Prompted' in the menus.  Nothing wrong with preferring Follow Road mode - but you need to be able to opt out at will.  That is what 'Prompted' gives you.
(http://www.aukadia.net/gps/follow-or-off-w.gif)
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Greenbank on 07 April, 2011, 08:14:28 pm
This is where Greenbank’s method might score, since it combines Track with “hidden” routing and s he says, you get the turn warnings as back -up to the Track. Although it does seem extra faffing to put in all the route viapoints.

Which method of mine?

The one I use for the Edge 705 (plot route in bikely using follow road) means I can generally plot a 200km Audax in under 10 minutes. I then download it once as a GPX track and then download exactly the same thing as a GPXX route.

If you mean the jwo-esque one routepoint per routesheet instruction method then, yes, that generally takes anything between half an hour and an hour for a 200km ride (rides like the Elenith and BCM 600 take roughly the same time to plot as they have about the same number of instructions as a typical local 200km ride for me despite being much longer).
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: PloddinPedro on 07 April, 2011, 09:26:05 pm
This is where Greenbank’s method might score, since it combines Track with “hidden” routing and s he says, you get the turn warnings as back -up to the Track. Although it does seem extra faffing to put in all the route viapoints.

Which method of mine?

The one I use for the Edge 705 (plot route in bikely using follow road) means I can generally plot a 200km Audax in under 10 minutes. I then download it once as a GPX track and then download exactly the same thing as a GPXX route.

If you mean the jwo-esque one routepoint per routesheet instruction method then, yes, that generally takes anything between half an hour and an hour for a 200km ride (rides like the Elenith and BCM 600 take roughly the same time to plot as they have about the same number of instructions as a typical local 200km ride for me despite being much longer).
Ooops. Sorry if I've misremembered but I was referring to the use of a Route set to transparent together with a Track, so you got a line to follow combined with prompts at relevant turns. Apologies if that wasn't your post somewhere; I've read so much of this stuff .....
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Greenbank on 07 April, 2011, 09:32:22 pm
This is where Greenbank’s method might score, since it combines Track with “hidden” routing and s he says, you get the turn warnings as back -up to the Track. Although it does seem extra faffing to put in all the route viapoints.

Which method of mine?

The one I use for the Edge 705 (plot route in bikely using follow road) means I can generally plot a 200km Audax in under 10 minutes. I then download it once as a GPX track and then download exactly the same thing as a GPXX route.

If you mean the jwo-esque one routepoint per routesheet instruction method then, yes, that generally takes anything between half an hour and an hour for a 200km ride (rides like the Elenith and BCM 600 take roughly the same time to plot as they have about the same number of instructions as a typical local 200km ride for me despite being much longer).
Ooops. Sorry if I've misremembered but I was referring to the use of a Route set to transparent together with a Track, so you got a line to follow combined with prompts at relevant turns. Apologies if that wasn't your post somewhere; I've read so much of this stuff .....

That on my Edge 705 takes 10 minutes to plot for a 200km Audax, but is relying on the GPS to give me the prompts based on its routing and its knowledge of the roads (sometimes it doesn't tell me about every junction which is why I need to have it on the map page to see the where the route and track go). The difference is that I'm not telling the GPS where to tell me what I want it to tell me, which is what you get with the other 'one routepoint per routesheet instruction' method.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: PloddinPedro on 07 April, 2011, 09:40:27 pm
You may have already discovered that Routes are a series of marks between which the GPS unit navigates according to a path of its own choosing; if you set it to "Follow Road" it will (mostly) take a path which conforms to the mapping contained in the unit. I say "mostly" because it will occasionally decide to "avoid a Highway" ... etc etc

I see this general comment rather often and I feel it gives the GPS and Routes generally something of a bad rep, by only telling half the story.
Yes all the above is true, "if you set it to Follow Road".

You don't say anything about how a GPS behaves if you don't set it to 'Follow Road'.
I would suggest that in this mode (confusingly described in the menus as 'Off Road') it behaves entirely predictably and does just what is wanted.

I can't help feeling that some people fall into the trap, early on, of configuring their GPS to 'use Follow Road' (or maybe, of foolishly ticking the 'Don't ask again' box).  Unfortunately, once you've done this (and I can see why it seems the obvious thing to do), you are never again given an opportunity to opt for the far more usable and understandable Direct (aka Off Road) mode - so missing out on near-50% of the GPS's functionality for ever more.

Far, far better to set it to 'Prompted' in the menus.  Nothing wrong with preferring Follow Road mode - but you need to be able to opt out at will.  That is what 'Prompted' gives you.
(http://www.aukadia.net/gps/follow-or-off-w.gif)
Fair point, but I have always puzzled over the attraction of the "Off Road" option. Ultimately I bow to your greater knowledge here because I haven't really used it, other than briefly to discover I didn't like it. My (limited) experience is that I got a series of "as the crow flies" straight lines from one way/viapoint to the next. If the path is curvy this means the screen displays a series of forks where the Route line diverges from the roads on the map. It's a purely personal preference thing, but as I said above, I'm primarily a "map" person and I wasn't comfortable with the constant requirement to interpret whether I was looking at just a general direction pointer or an actual fork in two roads. My brain is too small to cope with much information descending at 20 mph at 3 a.m. - I just want things simple!

The other aspect of this is that using "Off Road" (I think - correct me if wrong) requires a degree of intensity of numbers of viapoints to constrain the Route to approximate to the road on the map and I find preparing such a file more tedious than simply drawing a Track; but maybe that's just me!
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: DrMekon on 07 April, 2011, 09:46:44 pm
The wiggly track is what you see; the route can be set to invisible so you don't get the "as the crow flies line", and the waypoint names give the instruction according to the naming convention at the routesheet points. It's more time consuming than just drawing a track, the benefits of the routesheet instructions coming with the track make it well worth the extra time for me.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: PloddinPedro on 07 April, 2011, 09:49:56 pm

That on my Edge 705 takes 10 minutes to plot for a 200km Audax, but is relying on the GPS to give me the prompts based on its routing and its knowledge of the roads (sometimes it doesn't tell me about every junction which is why I need to have it on the map page to see the where the route and track go). The difference is that I'm not telling the GPS where to tell me what I want it to tell me, which is what you get with the other 'one routepoint per routesheet instruction' method.
Ah, I see what you mean now. But if you don't put in the "one point per instruction" waypoints, is there a risk that the GPS unit will work out its own route and expose you to the "I can't use Highways so I've got to go miles out of the way to find a straight crossroads" scenario?
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: PloddinPedro on 07 April, 2011, 09:58:59 pm
The wiggly track is what you see; the route can be set to invisible so you don't get the "as the crow flies line", and the waypoint names give the instruction according to the naming convention at the routesheet points. It's more time consuming than just drawing a track, the benefits of the routesheet instructions coming with the track make it well worth the extra time for me.
Yes I can imagine how that works on screen. It comes back to what I said earlier, that different methods suit different people. For me, the simplicity of the Track, uninterrupted by things popping up, seems to work OK, apart from as I said above, I could wish that the Track line was a bit more visible.

On the other hand, I might have become a bit set in my ways, having done it this way almost from the off and perhaps it would be good to experiment
a bit again!
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Greenbank on 07 April, 2011, 10:03:12 pm

That on my Edge 705 takes 10 minutes to plot for a 200km Audax, but is relying on the GPS to give me the prompts based on its routing and its knowledge of the roads (sometimes it doesn't tell me about every junction which is why I need to have it on the map page to see the where the route and track go). The difference is that I'm not telling the GPS where to tell me what I want it to tell me, which is what you get with the other 'one routepoint per routesheet instruction' method.
Ah, I see what you mean now. But if you don't put in the "one point per instruction" waypoints, is there a risk that the GPS unit will work out its own route and expose you to the "I can't use Highways so I've got to go miles out of the way to find a straight crossroads" scenario?

No because the route you upload is made up of the same 3000+ points that the track is (this is what the GPXX format gets you with its extensions to normal GPX). Each point is 50m-100m from the previous one so there's no choices for the routing algorithm to take.

It won't like any off-road sections that you do, but that's why you look at the map page so that you can see where the track goes. But in normal operation you look at the map page and the GPS prompts you at most junctions with what to do, the 'Dist Next' field also displays the distance to the next expected turn according to the routing algorithm (not the distance to the next point in the route/track).
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: PloddinPedro on 08 April, 2011, 08:18:35 am
But if you don't put in the "one point per instruction" waypoints, is there a risk that the GPS unit will work out its own route and expose you to the "I can't use Highways so I've got to go miles out of the way to find a straight crossroads" scenario?

No because the route you upload is made up of the same 3000+ points that the track is (this is what the GPXX format gets you with its extensions to normal GPX). Each point is 50m-100m from the previous one so there's no choices for the routing algorithm to take.

It won't like any off-road sections that you do, but that's why you look at the map page so that you can see where the track goes. But in normal operation you look at the map page and the GPS prompts you at most junctions with what to do, the 'Dist Next' field also displays the distance to the next expected turn according to the routing algorithm (not the distance to the next point in the route/track).
OK, I geddit now. The bit I'd overlooked is that we're talking an Edge and you're using the .gpxx format. I'd never bothered with .gpxx before because I got around any issues with limits on the number of points per Route/Track by splitting my journeys into sections. I guess I ought to put in some more homework! This won't help Polar Bear though, because the Map60 CSx doesn't support .gpxx.

One more question though - on my Edge I find it irritating that the road and street names can sometimes obscure the Track line - the street name layer seems to be on top of the road and Track lines. I find this can make it difficult to see clearly what's coming up ahead when navigating through villages and towns, especially as the Edge (605/705) screen is a bit small. I haven't found a way of turning these off without also losing all the small roads as well - am I missing something?
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: MSeries on 08 April, 2011, 08:20:22 am
What's the best way to do this please?   We would like to be able to plot a route on the computer, download it onto the GPS then select it for navigation purposes.

Please keep instructions simple  :D  :thumbsup:  
bear in mind all of the other options talked about above. IMO the most simple is to use a track not a route. Frankly Frankie described it as following a like drawn on  map. I used Google Maps to draw the line on Google Maps, pull it around until it goes where I want, then use GMap2GPS, well my own customised version to produce a track. The I save the track, open in it MapSource and load it to my GPS.

Using tracks doesn't make full use of the GPSs capabilities, IMO, routes do and IMO best for when you need to get to a destinaton. Just let the device work it out, tell it to navigate to place X then use it. For twisty turn by turn routes where you want to use  specific roads I don't think it's th ebest solution

My custom version of GMap2GPS actually removes the need to reduce the number of track points to < 500. I am working on something to remove the need to 'save the file and open it with MapSource' too

PM me if you want my version of GMap2GPS, it's a firefox bookmarklet, it's available on line but I haven't gotten round to writing instructions since it was developed for my own use.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Polar Bear on 09 April, 2011, 04:30:56 pm
Just as a test I've created a 1 mile gpx test file using bikehike.  I've loaded this down to my computer and then onto the memory card of my gps.  Unfortunately the gps doesn't seem to be able to find this.   Any ideas why please?
The 60CSx can't read GPX files on the memory card. You need to load the route to its internal memory. You can use software like GPSBabel or MapSource to load the route. Or you can install the Garmin Communicator Plugin, then use the option in Bikehike to download directly to the GPS unit.

Right, next noobs problem.   I feel a fucking imbecile really but this isn't getting any better.    :(

I've got a .gpx file created in bikehike.   GPSBabel doesn't seem to recognise this as an input file type.  WTF ???   
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Polar Bear on 09 April, 2011, 04:54:52 pm
HOLD THE BACK PAGE!!!!!!!!!

I've now loaded my test track created in bikehike and loaded via gpababel to teh Garmin.   Progress indeed.

Time to play I guess...    ;D   :thumbsup: 
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Polar Bear on 12 April, 2011, 02:59:18 pm
Testing, testing...

I have now loaded a 20 mile loop into the gps using the same method and intend to try it out later.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Polar Bear on 12 April, 2011, 09:11:16 pm
First test report:

The 20 mile loop was created in bikehike and loaded into the Garmin using GPSBabel as a route with max 500 waypoints.   

The Garmin knew it had lots of waypoints and bleeped on a regular basis, i.e. for every bend and curve! 

I was following the map but every time it bleeped for a waypoint it would zoom out.   I think that I may have found a setting in the GPS to resolve this.   

All was going well until waypoint 249 at approximately 15 miles.   It seemed to think that was the last waypoint.   I have just uploaded the route from the pc back into bikehike.  It seems to end early!   ???

Anyhow, I've now done the route again and will load it into the GPS with 100 waypoints.   I'm reckoning that 5 waypoints per mile should keep most bleeps at or near junctions  :)
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: frankly frankie on 12 April, 2011, 11:20:29 pm
PB there's a confusion here between Routes and Tracks.  
In truth there's  not a lot of difference but it helps to know that on your GPS a single Route can have:
250 points absolute max (or 50 max if you expect it to autoroute/follow road)
while a Track can have:
500 points max (which won't get you very far, about 30km at default settings).

Use whichever you like but know that these are the limits.  In Garmin terminology "a route with 500 waypoints" is never gonna work.  
In practice, in the UK, Trackpoints are, on average, less than 300m apart.
Routepoints are, on average, 500m - 2km apart.
Routepoints for autorouting are, on average 5km+ apart.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Oscar's dad on 12 April, 2011, 11:39:52 pm
PB, I haven't read through the whole of the thread so I apologise if someone has already offered what I am about to type ...

About 3 years ago I entered the world of GPS with some trepidation, the choice of unit was scary, the choice of mapping software was utterly bewildering.  I read an article in Arrivee by Frankly Frankie and the mists cleared.  I bought a Garmin eTrex HCX (now superseded I think) plus Garmin's Mapsource City Navigator and haven't looked back.  I am sure my choice wasn't the cheapest and am sure someone can prove it isn't the best but it works for me.  

Before GPS I would spend a great deal of time at the side of the road staring at my upside down OS map much like a monkey would stare at a abacus.  Now, my GPS gives me turn by turn instructions - a revelation.  Sure, it took me a short while to work out how to get the best from the unit and mapping software, sprinkling waypoints around like fairy dust is a good idea as is placing them strategically, like on the exit point from a town.  And occasionally I still have the odd navigational moment but nonetheless GPS has changed my cycling life.

I hope this helps.

PS - I'm no computer / geeky expert and can't be arsed with getting my head round too much complexity so you can bet what I do is both simple and effective.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Teapot on 14 April, 2011, 10:21:08 am
PB there's a confusion here between Routes and Tracks.  
In truth there's  not a lot of difference but it helps to know that on your GPS a single Route can have:
250 points absolute max (or 50 max if you expect it to autoroute/follow road)
while a Track can have:
500 points max (which won't get you very far, about 30km at default settings 
In practice, in the UK, Trackpoints are, on average, less than 300m apart.
Routepoints are, on average, 500m - 2km apart.
Routepoints for autorouting are, on average 5km+ apart.
frankly frankie, I don't understand your quoted limit of 500 trackpoints on any single track.I recently rode the Man of Kent 200km using the organisers supplied gpx track that had 5019 trackpoints(that's what Mapsource or BaseCamp say it had).My Garmin 705 missed pop up directions at 2 junctions but otherwise gave complete turn by turn directions for the whole Audax.Also if you want to produce a route if you use BikeHike and ask for the output as a gpxx route file I thought any 50 or 100 viapoint,waypoint,coursepoint limit didn't apply.Everytime I think I understand gpx tracks and routes another obstacle appears!
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: PloddinPedro on 14 April, 2011, 10:41:24 am
PB there's a confusion here between Routes and Tracks.  
In truth there's  not a lot of difference but it helps to know that on your GPS a single Route can have:
250 points absolute max (or 50 max if you expect it to autoroute/follow road)
while a Track can have:
500 points max (which won't get you very far, about 30km at default settings 
In practice, in the UK, Trackpoints are, on average, less than 300m apart.
Routepoints are, on average, 500m - 2km apart.
Routepoints for autorouting are, on average 5km+ apart.
frankly frankie, I don't understand your quoted limit of 500 trackpoints on any single track.I recently rode the Man of Kent 200km using the organisers supplied gpx track that had 5019 trackpoints(that's what Mapsource or BaseCamp say it had).My Garmin 705 missed pop up directions at 2 junctions but otherwise gave complete turn by turn directions for the whole Audax.Also if you want to produce a route if you use BikeHike and ask for the output as a gpxx route file I thought any 50 or 100 viapoint,waypoint,coursepoint limit didn't apply.Everytime I think I understand gpx tracks and routes another obstacle appears!
No doubt FF will be along in a minute but in the meantime I think the answer may be that the .gpxx format does not suffer from the limit on trackpoints. If you use most other Garmin (non Edge) models and try to download into them a Track with more than 500 points, you'll get a "truncated track" message and the line will reach only until the 500th point!
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Greenbank on 14 April, 2011, 10:47:40 am
frankly frankie, I don't understand your quoted limit of 500 trackpoints on any single track.I recently rode the Man of Kent 200km using the organisers supplied gpx track that had 5019 trackpoints(that's what Mapsource or BaseCamp say it had).My Garmin 705

Because the Garmin 705 doesn't have the 500 trackpoint limitation when using gpxx files.

'Older' GPSes (including the eTrex series) do have this limitation and they're more popular amongst Audaxers (although I am starting to see more and more Edge 605/705/800s on each ride).

[EDIT] Cross with PP...
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: frankly frankie on 14 April, 2011, 11:01:37 am
I was answering the OP who has a GPSMap60 - older-generation type of GPS (though none the worse for that).  

The limits I described apply to those models and to Etrex C types, which all also maintain a clear distinction between Routes and Tracks, and don't understand Course or gpxx as anything special.

My impression is that newer models do seem to blur the boundaries between Track/Course/Route, partly by using a (very sensible) central 'Where To' menu for everything, partly by beefing-up Track navigation to make it a more Route-like experience.
I daresay these are genuine improvements and, when the downsides of the newer models have been eliminated, we'll all want one.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Polar Bear on 14 April, 2011, 11:21:20 am
So, should I be saving my bikehike creations as routes or tracks then?  Is there any benefit to either?

For the life of me I don't understand why it has to be so over-complicated.   
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Oscar's dad on 14 April, 2011, 03:38:10 pm
So, should I be saving my bikehike creations as routes or tracks then?  Is there any benefit to either?

For the life of me I don't understand why it has to be so over-complicated.  

It doesn't, I don't have to endure such complexities.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: frankly frankie on 14 April, 2011, 03:47:02 pm
Both are just lists of points to be visited in the order they're listed - so I agree it's a bit confusing to have the two choices.

Each have pros and cons, but a Track is simplest in concept because it is essentially exactly like having a highlighted paper map on your handlebars.  It's better than the paper map because it scrolls as you travel, and is zoomable to taste, and is wind/waterproof - OTOH it's not so good because it's dim, and very small.
If you choose this option, the trick is to colour the Track(s), in the GPS menus, to make it much more visible on screen, more like a highlighter pen, and to observe the 500-point limit by splitting and/or downsampling.

A Route on the other hand is more analagous to a turn-by-turn route sheet.  If (like me*) you are used to riding with a route sheet and never refer to a map, then I would suggest that learning about Routes will be more rewarding in the long run.

* for example - if someone were to ask me the way to my house, my instinct would be to write "leave the A6 here, then right here and left here" - rather than to draw a sketch map.  That seems to make me a Route person not a Track person.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Teapot on 14 April, 2011, 04:34:22 pm
frankly frankie, I don't understand your quoted limit of 500 trackpoints on any single track.I recently rode the Man of Kent 200km using the organisers supplied gpx track that had 5019 trackpoints(that's what Mapsource or BaseCamp say it had).My Garmin 705

Because the Garmin 705 doesn't have the 500 trackpoint limitation when using gpxx file
Greenbank and frankly frankie,as I explained in a previous post I rode the man of Kent 200 with full pop up directionson my Garmin 705, from a gpx track with 5019 trackpoints.This was a gpx track,NOT a gpxx route or gpxx track!There must be quite a high limit on trackpoints when producing a gpx track on a 705.
Greenbank,if BikeHike etc can produce a track with thousands of trackpoints that also produces pop up directions in a Garmin705,what is the point of producing a gpxx route too?
Greenbank,one last point,a gpxx route seems to work in a 705 and BikeHike if you upload it to BikeHike but produces a straight line between start and finish in Mapsource.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Greenbank on 14 April, 2011, 04:44:50 pm
Greenbank and frankly frankie,as I explained in a previous post I rode the man of Kent 200 with full pop up directionson my Garmin 705, from a gpx track with 5019 trackpoints.This was a gpx track,NOT a gpxx route or gpxx track!There must be quite a high limit on trackpoints when producing a gpx track on a 705.

OK, but it's still useless for the OP since he doesn't have an Edge 705. He's stuck with the 500 trackpoint limit on a track because that's what his GPS is limited to.

I don't think there's any limit to the number of trackpoints in a GPX track on the Edge 705.

Greenbank,if BikeHike etc can produce a track with thousands of trackpoints that also produces pop up directions in a Garmin705,what is the point of producing a gpxx route too?

Dunno, I've always downloaded as both a GPXX route and a GPX track. I do know that they give different options when selecting them under the 'Where to?' menu.

A GPX track gets:-

Navigate, Map Setup, Copy to Card, Delete

A GPXX route gets:-

Navigate, Copy to Card

I had assumed that you needed to put in a GPXX route to perform turn by turn instructions (with road names) rather than the annoying constant "North in 60m" that I got when I tried it Navigating against a GPX track.

When you say 'pop up directions' what kind of directions do you get and how often? Are they just general direction arrows or does it include road names/numbers (i.e. "3rd exit roundabout onto B466").

Greenbank,one last point,a gpxx route seems to work in a 705 and BikeHike if you upload it to BikeHike but produces a straight line between start and finish in Mapsource.

Probably because Mapsource doesn't understand the GPXX extensions. Only the start (and maybe the finish and some intermediate points) go in a GPXX file as trackpoints, the rest of the points are extensions to those trackpoints. If it doesn't understand the extensions it just sees the very few trackpoints (possibly just the one at the start and end).
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: frankly frankie on 14 April, 2011, 05:08:10 pm
I've got no experience of Edge models (other than trying to help somebody with one, by the roadside, and making a complete fool of myself  ::-)
- and no direct knowledge (yet) about Course syntax and gpxx extensions -
but just as a point of interest, Mapsource is fully capable of writing a Route gpx file with gpxx extensions, to all intents and purposes exactly the same as the ones Bikehike produces.  And it has no difficulty transferring this information to an Etrex GPS.  However as far as I can tell, the Etrex does little or nothing with this information, in fact it probably strips it out at the import stage.  Certainly if you reverse the transfer, and re-download the Route from the Etrex back into Mapsource and inspect the result, the gpxx points have gone.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Teapot on 14 April, 2011, 05:55:03 pm


I had assumed that you needed to put in a GPXX route to perform turn by turn instructions (with road names) rather than the annoying constant "North in 60m" that I got when I tried it Navigating against a GPX track.

When you say 'pop up directions' what kind of directions do you get and how often? Are they just general direction arrows or does it include road names/numbers (i.e. "3rd exit roundabout onto B466
Greenbank,you get full pop up directions displayed on a Garmin 705 from a gpx track produced in BikeHike or Bikely such as "Right on Station Road",Left on Lodge Lane","Right on A272","Left on Batts Bridge Roundabout"(all from Invicta 300km gpx track)plus the schematic diagram of the junction previewed 100m before the approaching junction or turn and then repeated at junction or turn with bleeing to wake you up in both cases.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Teapot on 14 April, 2011, 06:41:52 pm
Greenbank,you get full pop up directions displayed on a Garmin 705 from a gpx track
After selecting the" Navigate" option on the Garmin 705.
Title: Re: Plotting routes for Garmin GPS
Post by: Teapot on 15 April, 2011, 09:37:42 am
After selecting the" Navigate" option on the Garmin 705.
Another wierd feature of the Garmin 705 gpx track is that it has a chain like appearance similar to the presentation of tracks in Mapsource if you just display the track on 705 without pressing "Navigate"As soon as you do press "Navigate"the track becomes  pink line overlaying the roads that have been chosen by the 705.Once more Garmin products seem to behave in different ways in software and hardware,given the same information!