Author Topic: Lead Me To The Darkside  (Read 22048 times)

clarion

  • Tyke
Lead Me To The Darkside
« on: 20 July, 2012, 02:17:17 pm »
Facing the possibility of not being able to ride an upwrong even after surgery, I wonder if this is just life's way of telling me I should fulfil my twenty-five year dream of getting a recumbent.

But I'm very much a fan of one bike to do everything if possible.  Over many years, I know precisely what spec I want for a df bike, but not really a clue what I want from a bent, especially if it's to be my only transport.

Here is what I do with my bike, in order of frequency/miles:

Commuting in London traffic
Day rides/shorter audax
Shopping/utility
Cycle camping

So I need something which I can use to carry a serious load up a hill, be able to see ahead in traffic, and yet has a decent turn of speed when I want it.

Preferences I do know of include USS bars, but that's not necessarily a dealbreaker, even if much preferred.  Oh - and hub gears rather than derailleurs if at all possible, so that likely means a Rohloff.

I'm intending to go see Ian at FutureCycles to do some test riding.  I've already seen Kevin at DTek, but didn't get round to buying at that point, as other issues intervened.  I don't want to get him to go to the bother again unless I definitely had cash in my pocket. 

So help me narrow down my thinking.  Suggestions?
Getting there...

rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: Darkside Guidance
« Reply #1 on: 20 July, 2012, 02:23:10 pm »
Does this mean you've got some upwrongs that need new homes?
[Wanders off, whistling innocently...]

Can't help regarding choice of a new machine.  It's been YEARS since I even rode mine 'bents, let alone bought one.  The first thing to ask - how many wheels?  That narrows it down a bit, and then we can ask more relevant questions specific to bikes/trikes as appropriate.

And commiserations on (possibly) not being allowed/able to go back on any of your existing fleet.
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #2 on: 20 July, 2012, 02:35:11 pm »
I already have a number of upwrongs I need to get round to selling.  But there may be more soon :(

Visiting Kevin showed I was probably better suited to a trike as an occasional use bent, but experience of commuting on one in London convinced me I wanted to be narrower and a bit higher if possible.
Getting there...

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #3 on: 20 July, 2012, 02:52:34 pm »
Unless you're unable or unwilling to learn to ride a two-wheeler to the appropriate level of skill, I'd strongly suggest avoiding trikes.  They're brilliant for touring and day rides (as long as it doesn't involve off-road), but are measurably slower, completely impractical on trains and force you to behave like a car in traffic.

Anything other than a very upright shortish long-wheelbase (Bacchetta Café or similar) is going to be awkward in traffic.  You lose your height and flexibility advantages, which make filtering difficult.  Start-stop traffic is extremely tedious on anything where you have to put a foot down when stopped, which is paradoxically a point in favour of lowracers (where you can put a hand down) and trikes.  I'd suggest that if possible a very upright upwrong might be a better commuter bike.  Otherwise, accept that you're going to be held up by traffic.

Beyond that, you're obviously looking at a USS tourer with decent luggage capacity and plenty of gears.  Hub gears are a good thing, if only because you can change down after you stop.  You *need* to be in a low gear to get a 'bent moving reliably.  If the rear wheel is small, it avoids dérailleur vs grass issues.  Rear suspension would be highly desirable (you can't get out of the saddle for bumps).  You need a really good reason not to have a disc brake on the front, at least.  Don't even consider rim brakes on a small wheel (worst case it's got to stop a loaded tourer from R17, and that heat has to go somewhere - remember that recumbents can brake harder than uprights).

You probably need to decide on whether you're going to go for features and reliability or light weight.  Something like a HPV Grasshopper (maybe the foldy version) would seem like a good choice at the 'heavy' end of the spectrum.  The lighter end is trickier, as you have to get quite specific about luggage requirements.

As for a decent turn of speed when you want it, that's greatly affected by how upright the riding position is.  Recumbents are inherently like tandems in their weight to aerodynamics ratio, so what speed advantages you'll get will only be of use if you're happy to leapfrog any solo DF bikes you're riding with.  A bike where you can change the seat angle according to the type of riding you're doing would seem like a good idea - depending on the seat design, this may or may not involve a corresponding adjustment of boom extension (which is a serious faff on most bikes).

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #4 on: 20 July, 2012, 02:57:51 pm »
Unless you're unable or unwilling to learn to ride a two-wheeler to the appropriate level of skill, I'd strongly suggest avoiding trikes.  They're brilliant for touring and day rides (as long as it doesn't involve off-road), but are measurably slower, completely impractical on trains and force you to behave like a car in traffic.

That confirms what I was thinking.

Quote
Anything other than a very upright shortish long-wheelbase (Bacchetta Café or similar) is going to be awkward in traffic.  You lose your height and flexibility advantages, which make filtering difficult.  Start-stop traffic is extremely tedious on anything where you have to put a foot down when stopped, which is paradoxically a point in favour of lowracers (where you can put a hand down) and trikes.  I'd suggest that if possible a very upright upwrong might be a better commuter bike.  Otherwise, accept that you're going to be held up by traffic.

I hate being held up by traffic, but a lot of my commute is in bus lanes or via back streets, so I'm not sure that's so much of an issue.  I do remember feeling very large and a bit vulnerable riding a trike in the inner parts of London.

Quote
Beyond that, you're obviously looking at a USS tourer with decent luggage capacity and plenty of gears.  Hub gears are a good thing, if only because you can change down after you stop.  You *need* to be in a low gear to get a 'bent moving reliably.  If the rear wheel is small, it avoids dérailleur vs grass issues.  Rear suspension would be highly desirable (you can't get out of the saddle for bumps).

You probably need to decide on whether you're going to go for features and reliability or light weight.  Something like a HPV Grasshopper (maybe the foldy version) would seem like a good choice at the 'heavy' end of the spectrum.  The lighter end is trickier, as you have to get quite specific about luggage requirements.

Or I suppose I could think about trailers, but that would limit my trainability again... :-\

Quote
As for a decent turn of speed when you want it, that's greatly affected by how upright the riding position is.  Recumbents are inherently like tandems in their weight to aerodynamics ratio, so what speed advantages you'll get will only be of use if you're happy to leapfrog any solo DF bikes you're riding with.  A bike where you can change the seat angle according to the type of riding you're doing would seem like a good idea - depending on the seat design, this may or may not involve a corresponding adjustment of boom extension (which is a serious faff on most bikes).

Faff minimisation would be a priority, but some faff is fine.
Getting there...

Kim

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Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #5 on: 20 July, 2012, 03:00:40 pm »
Boom adjustment faff involves lots of angst about whether you've got the bottom bracket straight WRT the seat (which you discover you've got wrong after a couple of hours when things start to hurt), and sometimes a change of chain length.  HPV's seat-that-rotates-around-your-pelvis design has an awful lot going for it.

That said, I just keep my seat fully reclined the whole time, and live with the extra work in traffic.  Of course, for city-only riding, I tend to use a DF bike.

Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #6 on: 20 July, 2012, 03:06:54 pm »
I was hesitant to comment until experienced 'bent people spoke up.

I'm not convinced that a bent is the answer for commuting. Like Kim, I thought that a very upright df with appropriate bars might be more sensible.

The type of bars found on the Africa bike remove all weight from wrists (and hence shoulders). That's why I bought PDs one for stepdaughter.

Sure, they are unaero and you can't honk. But then you can't honk on a recumbent.  For stop-start city riding, light wheels and tyres will be more of a help in pulling away from traffic lights anyway.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Kim

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Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #7 on: 20 July, 2012, 03:10:23 pm »
I hate being held up by traffic, but a lot of my commute is in bus lanes or via back streets, so I'm not sure that's so much of an issue.  I do remember feeling very large and a bit vulnerable riding a trike in the inner parts of London.

I'm reasonably convinced it's mostly psychological.  The SMGT's riding position is equivalent to the front seat of a car, so I don't feel vulnerable on that.  On the odd occasion I've ridden the ICE trike in traffic, I've felt very low and vulnerable for the first 20 minutes or so, and then got used to it.  Being seen isn't really an issue any more than any other cycle, other than in very obvious edge cases.  The width thing is odd.  You're at most 6 inches wider than a mountain bike, but suddenly you're treated as if you're as big as a car (which is both a blessig and a curse).

Being at exhaust height is crappy in stop-start traffic, though.

Kim

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Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #8 on: 20 July, 2012, 03:15:08 pm »
But then you can't honk on a recumbent.

Common misconception.  You can.  Indeed, you've got a seat to push against rather than just your body weight and whatever you can manage with your arms without upsetting the steering too badly.

But it's contraindicated for balancing a two-wheeler at low speed (you can't shift your bodyweight to compensate), and will cause serious stress on the drivetrain and your knees.  Recumbentists tend to spin and make use of all the gears they can get because that generally works a lot better.

Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #9 on: 20 July, 2012, 03:38:24 pm »
erm, "whatever you can manage with your arms" can be a huge amount. Really huge. Enough to bend a weak frame, snap bars.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Kim

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    • Fediverse
Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #10 on: 20 July, 2012, 03:42:21 pm »
Oh absolutely, but you can manage even more with your legs and a solid object.

Tigerrr

  • That England that was wont to conquer others Hath made a shameful conquest of itself.
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Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #11 on: 20 July, 2012, 03:54:56 pm »
Join my club Clarion! Bust back mountain.
Sounds to me like you need an HP Speedmachine or similar.  In time you will opt for something a bit faster for longer rides but its ideal for the rest of your remit.
Steer clear of trikes for teh commute thing - unless you are gouing for the wizzer electro assist. Slow and very wet indeed when its British weather.
Dont hang up on USS - the bars are very useful for your kit and more aero. Go for hamsters though not the big old airgrabbers.
You are west london arent you - you can come and testride my 2 bikes anytime. I am in Stamford Brook.
Dont hang up on being high - the lower you go the faster and frankly it makes not a jot of difference to the visibility. With your eyes front you see well and quickly learn to avoid what you cant see round! I hoisted a flag a few years ago and find it makes me feel more visible - no idea if its for real though.
And dont despair - your best riding is in front of you as I found when my back went - the move to recumbents led to my going further faster and with a bigger smile than the preceding 5 yrs of upright.
Commuting - I do it every day through the centre of town. I used to reckon an accident a year on upright and since I went recumbent in 2006 I have been accident free and much, much faster.  You will however discover that Holland Park is an alp.
Humanists UK Funeral and Wedding Celebrant. Trying for godless goodness.
http://humanist.org.uk/michaellaird

Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #12 on: 20 July, 2012, 04:00:30 pm »
Obviously, you need to try lots of stuff.  But I would have thought major questions are:

How much moolah? 
i.e are you taking your pick of new models, or scouring the secondhand market?

How heavy duty? 
Your wishlist obviously hints at some kind of tourer, but the more carrying capacity and rough road/pothole capability you want, the more you are likely to be slower than a slow thing uphill.  The compromise is yours, but bear in mind what you listed at the top of your uses.

How high up? 
I quite like my eyes being slightly above car drivers, and my gut says I would like to be high in traffic.  But I don't have much experience riding a bent in traffic.  I think Wendy, EdinburghFixed and Tigerrr have far more experience, and they all seem very happy on lower machines!  My suspicion would be that a high one will work equally well provided you can get a foot down properly. 
mrs_e was much happier with me high up; this is not inconsequential.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the type of steering personally.  You'll know if it doesn't feel right.

Lots of test rides.  In an ideal world you would get a long term loan of something.

Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #13 on: 20 July, 2012, 04:23:12 pm »
I suppose I missed off: How horizontal would you like to be?
Upright might feel more normal at first, but horizontal is comfy, and the much fabled recumbent aero advantage does rest on getting that angle down some.  Note that seat angle and seat height are not the same question.  Tho' you won't find much in the low-down-but-sat-up category.

Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #14 on: 20 July, 2012, 05:09:35 pm »


Ok, you might not want the carbon seat and USS instead of the solid hamster bars. But except for that, I'd say this does the trick.
Forgive me Father, for I have sinned. It has been too many days since I have ridden through the night with a brevet card in my pocket...

rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #15 on: 20 July, 2012, 05:20:43 pm »
^^ With Bonus Bridge-4-CrinklyLion. ;D
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #16 on: 20 July, 2012, 05:54:10 pm »
Olaf on CycleChat is selling his Grasshopper. It had a Rohloff hub initially although I think he converted it to derailleur. He's in Highbury (well, at the moment he's in France with the fnrttc lot) but you see what I mean.

http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/hp-velotechnik-grasshopper-fx-foldable-bent-in-london.103858/
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #17 on: 20 July, 2012, 06:00:38 pm »
if you must go for 2 wheeler i would suggest the bachetta bellandere . although it has oss it is easy to your feet down and is fairly fast /light for a big machine . the other possabliaty is the folding version of the linear lwb recumbent . uss alui and prone to creak a bit but seem to run ok  :)
the slower you go the more you see

Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #18 on: 20 July, 2012, 07:16:57 pm »
especially if it's to be my only transport.

       

Here is what I do with my bike, in order of frequency/miles:

Commuting in London traffic
Day rides/shorter audax
Shopping/utility
Cycle camping

So I need something which I can use to carry a serious load up a hill, be able to see ahead in traffic, and yet has a decent turn of speed when I want it.

Preferences I do know of include USS bars, but that's not necessarily a dealbreaker, even if much preferred.  Oh - and hub gears rather than derailleurs if at all possible, so that likely means a Rohloff.  Suggestions?

     My ICE 26 is my only transport which encompasses Touring/camping, shopping, commuting (inc Oxfords traffic), similar to you
apart from Audax that is. Don't be put off by the lowness, my seat is on full recline and one just adapts the technique in traffic, ICE do hub gears and in all honesty I don't think you can better one of their trikes. They (as you probably know) do a version that is ok for semi off road, I would highly recommend the lower one.
     Don't forget, two wheels bad, three wheels good (sorry George)

                                                                                                  ;D

The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #19 on: 20 July, 2012, 07:40:44 pm »

Commuting - I do it every day through the centre of town. I used to reckon an accident a year on upright and since I went recumbent in 2006 I have been accident free and much, much faster.  You will however discover that Holland Park is an alp.

'ere Tigerrrr - are you the recumbent I occasionally see on that very alp or thereabouts (Uxbridge Road etc)? I'm going the other way, faster.

Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #20 on: 20 July, 2012, 07:49:45 pm »

Commuting - I do it every day through the centre of town. I used to reckon an accident a year on upright and since I went recumbent in 2006 I have been accident free and much, much faster.  You will however discover that Holland Park is an alp.

'ere Tigerrrr - are you the recumbent I occasionally see on that very alp or thereabouts (Uxbridge Road etc)? I'm going the other way, faster.

       Ooh   :facepalm:
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Kim

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Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #21 on: 20 July, 2012, 07:59:17 pm »
My ICE 26 is my only transport which encompasses Touring/camping, shopping, commuting (inc Oxfords traffic), similar to you apart from Audax that is. Don't be put off by the lowness, my seat is on full recline and one just adapts the technique in traffic, ICE do hub gears and in all honesty I don't think you can better one of their trikes.

I'd agree with that: If you're going for three wheels, the ICE Sprint is a no-brainer for that list of uses.  I don't think anything else is in quite the same league for versatility and handling, though you may find a Catrike that comes reasonably close.

Agree about the Adventure, too.  Its main advantages are being better off-road (less risk of grounding, but you've still got the more substantial problem of three wheeltracks to worry about) and a higher seat, but it does compromise the handling somewhat at high speed.  Only really worth it if you have physical difficulty getting in and out of a low seat.  It's not going to make much difference to splashings or visibility.

I will however point out that barakta's Sprint is consistently about 10% slower than my functionally very similar Streetmachine.  And you can put a Streetmachine on a train without more than the usual fuss.

Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #22 on: 20 July, 2012, 08:09:00 pm »
As they (who actually are "they") say , that is the rub  :P
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Si

Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #23 on: 20 July, 2012, 08:45:07 pm »
Another one here who got a 'bent due to back problems.

I went for a slightly different approach to it - rather than doing loads of research as to the best one for my purposes based upon others' views and very short test rides, I just bought the cheapest (well second cheapest as the cheapest didn't have much size adjustment although was only £70) one that I could find and used that to work out what I really needed.

As it happened I'm still on the cheapo one (you might remember it from the ride from Sutton Park earlier in the year - the metallic blue Pashley PDQ), as it has more or less done all that I (as a total newbie to bentening) wanted.  I'm sure that if I tried some carbon super 'bent I'd soon see the disadvantages of my PDQ, but what you don't try you don't miss.

However, after racking up several thousand very cheap miles I now know exactly what I would want if I were to buy another.  I believe that any amount of advice, however good an experience base it came from, would not have been a substitute to actually riding the bike for a long period - I think that 'bents are even more personal objects than uprights.

One problem mine didn't solve was commuting.  Given the route of my commute and location of work, it just wasn't suitable - there is only so much abuse you can take from the yobs that you pass, and the bike really does attract people who want to mess with it when it's locked up outside.  The ossin' gurt hill didn't help either - I could get up it on the DF in work clothes without too much annoyance, but the 'bent just didn't like going that slow.  Thus my upright commuter received a handlebar and stem rework that allowed me to get the 5 miles to work without too much pain.

Second problem is that my touring has been limited a bit - I used to like taking in lots of gentler paths and tracks - not MTB stuff, just fairly smooth dirt tracks like sustrans stuff.  these I found too annoying on the 'bent, indeed I won't take it down one of my favourites after Johnny Thin managed to break his 'bent on it!

However, I predict that you will notice a few pluses - the extra room given to you by other traffic and the need to shout "wwweeeeeeeeeeeeeee" when going down hills.

Re: Lead Me To The Darkside
« Reply #24 on: 20 July, 2012, 08:52:57 pm »
The ossin' gurt hill didn't help either - I could get up it on the DF in work clothes without too much annoyance, but the 'bent just didn't like going that slow. 

       A major plus for the trike is that you can go as slow as a snail up a hill (and fully loaded at Streatley (18%) I have  :sick:),
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.