Author Topic: Should I cross to The Dark Side?  (Read 9726 times)

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #50 on: 30 August, 2013, 07:36:43 am »
Regarding specific models and pitfalls: I strongly recommend that you avoid anything with more than two wheels and anything with suspension.

You want to avoid a rack, instead using a Radical seat-back bag (or possibly side-panniers if these are needed to avoid the back wheel, i.e. a lowracer).

There are lovely models available which break these rules but they definitely require an investment from the rider in exchange. I've done 600km on three different bents and 300km on four and I'd say there is a stand-out winner, the exact model (High Baron) not being as important as the characteristics of rigidity, laid-backness, and "no extras". The lack of suspension is not a big deal for me when the whole experience of audax has so many other discomforts - I'd just use a wider tyre, say 28mm. If you consider that you'd happily have your arse hammered by an unsuspended saddle, spreading that over your whole back already makes it not much of a deal, comfort-wise.

You're telling me I'm doing it all wrong(during 2xLEL, Mille Miglia, PBP, Mille Alba)! My Furai has suspension, a rack, and 40mm tyres (I prefer them over 35mm ones for comfort). In principle I agree with your arguments for maximum speed, but all of them are a sacrifice for comfort. If I wanted to sacrifice comfort, I'd be riding an upright.
Maybe the OP needs to sacrifice some comfort for speed, but it's a choice, not a necessity.
Forgive me Father, for I have sinned. It has been too many days since I have ridden through the night with a brevet card in my pocket...

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #51 on: 30 August, 2013, 11:20:57 am »
I spent the pm with Kevin a while back. I don't think I've had many more enjoyable afternoons spent pedaling. If I lived in a flat area, I have no doubt I would end up with one. Pilot a bent is hilarious fun, and the view is brilliant.

A few things have put me off for now.

1. I'm already comfy on my DF bike (scars from an Spa saddle on LEL notwithstanding).
2. I like climbing, and even skinny people on bents seem agonisingly slow uphill.
3. Bents appear not to be able to ride in groups with DF bikes due to speed differences.
4. I would inevitably end up wanting a low-racer, and my wife would give me a load of grief about visibility.
5. Bike weight is important to me - it may not make me faster, but it makes riding a load more fun.

Kim

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Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #52 on: 30 August, 2013, 01:47:55 pm »
2. I like climbing, and even skinny people on bents seem agonisingly slow uphill.

I think it's more a case of 'bents making slow people seem faster on the flat, tbh.


Quote
3. Bents appear not to be able to ride in groups with DF bikes due to speed differences.

Sure they can, it's just that someone's going to have to put extra effort in at some point.  Usually that's the recumbentist riding the brakes and then working harder on the climbs, but the reverse can also be true if the 'bents are setting the pace.

If you're going to be doing a lot of this sort of thing, a highracer design is probably the way to go.  Won't make you less aero, but at least puts you at the same sort of height as the DF riders.


Quote
5. Bike weight is important to me - it may not make me faster, but it makes riding a load more fun.

But surely the recumbent:DF fun differential is much greater than the light:heavy one?  :D

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #53 on: 30 August, 2013, 01:58:45 pm »
I think tis all subjective, weight, climbing, faster downhill and so on, I (my opinion of course) thing there is nothing better than a trike, Barbara and I did a 90 mile hilly across country to Hereford with panniers (why did I pack so much  :o), I would not have made it on a 2 wheel bent or DF or indeed our tandem (now sold), I could go up hills at a speed a drunk hedgehog could have bettered all made up for by screaming manic grinned descents, ok the Alps it was not but bastard hilly. On a trike you have the stability for ascents and the stability for descents and after a few hundred miles you develop a smoother pedalling/riding style that helps if not to negate the differences then to make them not matter. Bugger tis sunny, I shall leave for work early and go the pretty way   ;D
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #54 on: 30 August, 2013, 02:08:17 pm »
Regarding specific models and pitfalls: I strongly recommend that ...
You're telling me I'm doing it all wrong...

I've ridden with both of you, you are both doing it right.

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #55 on: 30 August, 2013, 03:04:11 pm »
Oh, I forgot Kernow&SouthWest (yes, that 600 deserves a special mention). Am I still the only one that finished it on a recumbent?
Forgive me Father, for I have sinned. It has been too many days since I have ridden through the night with a brevet card in my pocket...

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #56 on: 02 September, 2013, 07:58:34 pm »
Regarding specific models and pitfalls: I strongly recommend that you avoid anything with more than two wheels and anything with suspension.




Oh dear, that must make my velomobile most unsuitable, one wonders how I managed to do LEL in under 76hrs  ;)

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #57 on: 03 September, 2013, 09:56:50 pm »
Regarding specific models and pitfalls: I strongly recommend that you avoid anything with more than two wheels and anything with suspension.




Oh dear, that must make my velomobile most unsuitable, one wonders how I managed to do LEL in under 76hrs  ;)


That's because you didn't know.

Now you do know, you know different!

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #58 on: 13 September, 2013, 10:22:47 pm »
Things I hate - no-where to carry a map that you can read and it is lethal anywhere near ice...but at nearly 6,000km I'm a convert.

Agreed about the map thing.  Riding a USS 'bent has made me rely on the Garmin far more than I would otherwise.  Which is fine if you trust your GPS.

As for ice, while a bruised hip and elbow is probably preferable to a broken collar bone, this is one of those problems for which n+1 is the solution.  Three wheels may be slower and more annoying to store/transport, you're not going to fall off a recumbent trike (unless you *really* try).

And I know *precisely* how hard you have to try.

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #59 on: 13 September, 2013, 10:48:23 pm »
Map case from any decent outdoor shop hang over shouldet then lean back on it until you need to hook it out to have a look. I had a vertigo attack down a 20% in Yorkshire just recently, on anything but my ICE Trike I would have been in a drystone wall, luv it, luv it, luv it. Makes you feel truly alive
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Kim

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Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #60 on: 14 September, 2013, 12:18:43 am »
Map cases have lumpy bits and breathe significantly less well than Ventisit. I can't see that working very well unless your riding position is quite upright and you don't mind a sweaty patch...

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #61 on: 14 September, 2013, 09:06:16 am »
On full recline, not that lumpy and on the rare occasions I really need a map tis better imho to have easier access and a dropof sweat
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #62 on: 19 September, 2013, 09:28:33 pm »
Regarding specific models and pitfalls: I strongly recommend that you avoid anything with more than two wheels and anything with suspension.




Oh dear, that must make my velomobile most unsuitable, one wonders how I managed to do LEL in under 76hrs  ;)

You must have compared the two wheel, rigid Battle Mountain style streamliners with the performance of the Quest, Milan etc "street" models... just how far under 76h could you have gone if you'd only known? :P

You're telling me I'm doing it all wrong(during 2xLEL, Mille Miglia, PBP, Mille Alba)! My Furai has suspension, a rack, and 40mm tyres (I prefer them over 35mm ones for comfort). In principle I agree with your arguments for maximum speed, but all of them are a sacrifice for comfort. If I wanted to sacrifice comfort, I'd be riding an upright.
Maybe the OP needs to sacrifice some comfort for speed, but it's a choice, not a necessity.

It's not a question of wrong or right of course. People complete long randonnées on scooters, hand cycles, penny farthings, 1900's retro-direct bikes with rod brakes and gas burner lights, etc. etc. which, as you say, doesn't change the principle of the thing.

I did a relatively hilly 600km on an ICE QNT with Big Apple tyres, and I've since done that distance a few times on rigid bikes with much thinner tyres and had a much happier, more comfortable time of it.

I guess I would say to all prospective recumbent riders: if you're more or less happy just now on your wrists and sit bones, at least try spreading that over your back which is 50x the area before you worry about suspension and fat tyres, that are likely to make the problem you are worried about (being slow) that much more difficult to surmount?

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #63 on: 27 September, 2013, 02:03:12 pm »

Long rides also beat up my contact points, my hands in particular (despite extensive use of tri-bars).

I know that the proper answer to this is to work on my strength and reduce my body fat percentage so as to get faster. And I promise to work at this, honest! But at age 66 and without an athletic gene in my body and having started Audaxing proper only six years ago, the chances of my making much headway at this are slim.

An interesting set of circumstances!

I'd say a lot depends on how important the sport is to you and how much you want to do it. It is a matter of choices, but perhaps not the ones you are thinking. The contact points are an issue not so much related to speed, so changing your bike to a laid back may potentially help - but you may also find that your current lack of speed/fitness makes you fight harder and compromise your form on long rides leading to the problems with contact points (rather than just the type of bike). You may even need to consider bike fitting, if you haven't already.

But the second bit quoted above is probably where the heart of this issue really lies.

You don't need to be genetically superior to ride well in Audax-type events and 66 years is not as old as you may think. I can assure you the easiest way to address the issue being described - and to lengthen your Audax life - is to build your strength. There are two ways to approach this.
1. You can do shorter rides at higher intensities and follow a more structured training programme approach to your cycling - rather than do every ride at comfortable and laid back pace.

2. By following a simple 30 minute full body strength training programme, twice a week, in a gym. By simply reversing the 'wastage' you have experienced in your muscles through increasing your strength, your cycling performance will increase tremendously - even if you don't lose weight.

I am a big believer in stength training for the full body, not just for sports but for essential physical well-being. Building strength throughout all your body's muscles is one of the most important ways YOU can slow the ageing process and remain younger for longer. It may be new to you but there is no reason it can't be enjoyable and you should not think of such exercise as intimidating. If you find a personal trainer they can give you a routine and show you how to follow a very simple and basic strength programme to suit your time demands. It doesn't have to take much time, it just needs to be a regular part of your life.

As much as we love doing the things we love doing, we have to accept there are small 'sacrifices' we can make to improve on the situation by simply doing a few additional things, to which we may not be so strongly drawn. It's about "doing things" and "doing things properly". If you like Audaxing perhaps consider making a few more changes and thus doing it better. You may have to 'sacrifice' a little more by changing things, but you'll also enjoy the rewards more and that will make the changes more worthwhile and more attractive.

You can't have your cake and eat it in the real world and you can't really 'cheat' through equipment upgrades. On average, people on recumbents don't necessarily do very much better than people on upright bikes in Audax events, even though we know recumbents will sometimes have definite (but small) mechanical advantages. I don't think riding a recumbent will change your outcomes in relation to pace. Only a change in your approach to training and preparation can do this.

I am certain the biggest impact will come from simply improving your strength and these changes are very fast to happen. Within 2 months of following a gym routine I guarantee your riding will have improved without changing anything else. And your weight will probably reduce somewhat as well, because of the changes in muscle density alone in combination with your normal riding.

I hope this is useful, please consider it?

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #64 on: 27 September, 2013, 02:47:24 pm »
Idai, I hear what you say, I really do, and despite the way I phrased it in my original post, I do know that no chassis will compensate for an inadequate engine in this game!

I didn’t include it in the OP for the sake of brevity but yes, I’ve already gone down the professional bike fit and custom frame, aerobars, optimal wheelset and tyres, etc. and it’s helped immensely, but such is the state of my decrepitude that utilising technology more suited to my current frailties seems an intelligent way to go.

My winter resolutions do indeed encompass working on fat reduction, strength building, etc. taking the view that whatever bike I ride, I’ll benefit from a better engine. But you have the wonderful perspective of someone relatively young and super-fit. For you, improvements from training are fast and recovery times are still short. Believe me, when you get to my age, these things can no longer be taken for granted. Looking at things realistically, the best I can expect is to slow the effect of ageing or, at the most, only a modest improvement.

Of course, I do have to confess also, that part of this is that I’m just plain curious about recumbents and want to find an excuse to have a go on one!

P.S. bloody brilliant ride on the Elliptigo by the way!

Kim

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Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #65 on: 27 September, 2013, 06:43:51 pm »
Of course, I do have to confess also, that part of this is that I’m just plain curious about recumbents and want to find an excuse to have a go on one!

Recumbents are cool, and 'fun' should be all the excuse anyone needs.  You like fun, don't you? :)

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #66 on: 27 September, 2013, 07:22:46 pm »
absolutely right  ;D
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #67 on: 27 September, 2013, 08:54:36 pm »
such is the state of my decrepitude that utilising technology more suited to my current frailties seems an intelligent way to go.... But you have the wonderful perspective of someone relatively young and super-fit. For you, improvements from training are fast and recovery times are still short. Believe me, when you get to my age, these things can no longer be taken for granted. Looking at things realistically, the best I can expect is to slow the effect of ageing or, at the most, only a modest improvement....Of course, I do have to confess also, that part of this is that I’m just plain curious about recumbents and want to find an excuse to have a go on one!

Thanks 'Pedro'

Curiosity is good - and doing new things is one definite way to stay young - at heart and in body! Getting a bike more suited to your comfort is also a good way to go and a good source of variety. Starting out on a new machine will be a refreshing change I suspect - and I certainly encourage you to do so if that's your inclination. Follow it.

The main point you made about training improvements and age is a commonly held misconception. Whereas it's true that the older one gets, the lower their potential returns are from strength training - and you'd definitely have a harder time than a 20 year old if you tried to campaign for a body building contest in the next year - it is actually older people who benefit the MOST from strength training. They show 'earth-moving' changes and improvements in a very short space of time when they strengthen up scientifically.

In fact, a clinical study in an elderly care home clearly showed that a large majority of the wheelchair-bound residents in their 80s and 90s could actually be made mobile again (and able to walk unaided) by doing a simple set of strength exercises (leg curls) for a couple of weeks. That's a perfect example of people having 'wasted away' until completely unable to do most things that the majority of us take for granted as normal, because they have not attended to their body's strength NEEDS. Use it or lose it, as they say.

I stick by my earlier statement - as someone with a lot of experience in this area - that you will be shocked at how much stronger you can become through following a simple but properly designed exercise routine. I don't mean mindlessly 'faffing about' in the gym and believing that spending some time within those walls will somehow transform your physique, regardless of how you actually use that time! I mean following a PROGRAMME - designed by someone who knows about strength training and preferably a trainer qualified to train special needs groups (such as elderly, pregnant, etc, etc).

If you are not experienced in exercise and physiology don't think you can simply walk into a gym and figure out a programme for yourself that will work - you'll get no results. And don't try to follow a 'silly' programme from one of those 'shallow' fitness magazines aimed at adolescents. Get a proper programme done for you by a qualified and recommended personal trainer who has helped other people similar to you to achieve what you are aiming for. Then spend a few sessions learning to do the exercises correctly - under the supervision of this trainer. And then go it alone once you are signed off as competent.

You can then touch base with the trainer every few months for tweaks in the programme and to check progress. You can ride 600k and beyond - so you know what you are doing and you have enough willpower to do whatever you want to do with your body (and to see beyond mental barriers and misconceptions). Only a tiny percentage of the world's cycling population (of any age) will have ridden rides as long as some of the ones you have completed. So don't talk yourself down or underestimate yourself. Leave your comfort zone, that's what it's all about and your subconscious has been telling you this for a long time. That's because deep down we all know what we truly NEED to do.

Note a strength training programme is progressive - you don't do the same thing in month 3 as you did in week 3. You should be increasing the resistance you are using progressively for the first year, until your body says it can't get stronger through those exercises. Then you mix things up a bit (with professional help) to keep it fresh. Basic training is all you need - not body building. And the gym should never take more than 30 minutes of your time, twice a week. You must train your full body - not just the parts you feel like training. Don't talk yourself out of it. When done properly, strength exercise is as rewarding as endurance exercise, but in a different way - and our bodies need the variety.

ONE LAST THING - the best time to start something new (that you have been wanting or needing to do) is always NOW - not next week, not next month, not in the winter, not "when my daughter's married" - NOW! Mull over it all, but make the changes fast - because nothing changes if you don't change...

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #68 on: 28 September, 2013, 10:03:33 am »
OK Idai, that's all very motivating, thanks. I guess I shall just have to knuckle down and take up your challenge - I'll come back in six months and let you know how I get on!

To bring this thread back a bit to hardware, I can report that I've been for an audience with His Kevin-ship at D-Tek. I spent a very enjoyable few hours there debating the whole issue and pottering up and down Little Thetford High Street on a variety of simple machines. I have at least established that I can maintain my balance and keep control when 'laid back', although I didn't try anything truly extreme.

I've continued to haunt t'internet reading up on all manner of stuff and trying to clarify my thoughts regarding the type of machine to get. The plan agreed with Kevin is to get something relatively novice friendly to use for six months or so in order to get acclimatised and hopefully I'll have a better idea of what might work best for me personally for Audaxing. Regrettably Kevin didn't have anything to hand that would meet this purpose so it's a question of looking through 'the small ads' for a while. From what I can see there's not much of a market for recumbents, in the sense of many of machines for sale and lots of turnover, and of course I'm quite impatient at this 'novelty of the new' stage and I want to get on with things!

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #69 on: 28 September, 2013, 02:08:28 pm »
Re the exercise, it depends on how serious you want to get, I am about your age and while I do light weights most days press up and half sit ups twice a week (Jack Russell helper gets involved) my main aim/joy is to be able to race the odd commuter on a racer and getting up the odd bastard hill, tis all about the fun/enjoyment (imho) unless you want to go semi pro.
        Re  "From what I can see there's not much of a market for recumbents"  we lurk everywhere, I believe I read somewhere about a dealer that let you hire a trike for a week, maybe worth a go. I was a committed solo person until Cycleman let me try his Q-NT, any obstacles re not easy to transport (before folding) were dismissed by me until it dawned that, dammit, yes, I wanted one, I had gone from the thrill of banking into a fast curve to trying to get it to drift with the feeling of the inside wheel getting light (an ICE being civilised will only lift if you are bordering on the bonkers style of cornering (again imho).
         I shall shut up now, trouble is these things are sooo much fun I can't keep quite about them.       ;D
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #70 on: 28 September, 2013, 04:50:01 pm »
I guess I shall just have to knuckle down and take up your challenge - I'll come back in six months and let you know how I get on!

It would be great to get some feedback on that challenge - seek and you shall find - so get strength training and get that new bike! I can't believe you can't find a recumbent to buy somewhere. There are a few well known shops around the UK and lots of guys on this forum who've bought them...

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #71 on: 29 September, 2013, 06:12:57 pm »
Pedro, you could always borrow my spare Trice Q for a bit, I suppose, although I think you're going for two wheels and not three so it might not be that useful.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Re: Should I cross to The Dark Side?
« Reply #72 on: 29 September, 2013, 10:53:34 pm »
Pedro, you could always borrow my spare Trice Q for a bit, I suppose, although I think you're going for two wheels and not three so it might not be that useful.
That's very kind Helen but yes, I'm focussing on two wheels for the time being. Thanks for the thought.:)