Should I cross to The Dark Side?

[PloddinPedro]

OK, here’s the scene. I am an aging, inadequate randonneur with a rubbish power-to-weight ratio. I have a good ability to go without sleep so I’m generally OK up to about 600km but longer stuff poses a real problem since I can’t go forever without sleep and I can’t go fast enough to bank sufficient time to get proper rest.

Long rides also beat up my contact points, my hands in particular (despite extensive use of tri-bars).

I know that the proper answer to this is to work on my strength and reduce my body fat percentage so as to get faster. And I promise to work at this, honest! But at age 66 and without an athletic gene in my body and having started Audaxing proper only six years ago, the chances of my making much headway at this are slim.

So, I’m asking myself whether, realistically speaking, the days of long rides - PBP and LEL again - are over for me, or is there a way I can “cheat” by resorting to technology. Do I for example, look at a Moulton (suspension reduces the fatigue from road vibration thus enabling me to go further faster - ?)

Or do I cross to The Dark Side?

Now I am fascinated by recumbents, in a passing interest sense, but know nothing at all about them in a practical sense. From the little (I think) I do know, a claimed advantage is a reduction in drag (assuming the machine is of the “racy” type rather than the touring style) offset in some part by being more difficult to climb (a major failing of mine already) because it’s not possible to employ quite so many muscles as on a DF bike. There’s also a weight disadvantage, cost-for-cost, I believe, compared to a conventional DF bike.

I’m wondering if, since the aerodynamic advantage would be accrued only at higher speed and the extra weight of the recumbent demands greater rider energy to get it up to that speed, for someone such as me, a recumbent actually offers no speed advantage at all in the real world?

That would leave the comfort factor alone as a reason for going laid back. Which might be enough if there weren’t disadvantages which aren’t apparent to me as someone who’s never actually sat on one?

So if I’m imagining that a recumbent might extend my Audaxing life, am I kidding myself or what? Is there anyone out there who’s trodden this path and can advise from direct experience?

[Wobbly John]

I'm not really a long distance cyclist and have only used my recumbent for about half a dozen rides over 200k.

Recumbents are varied beasts. You may need to try several before you find out the best one to solve your problem (or not).

I'd advise a try-out session at a recumbent dealer. Dtek in Cambridgeshire offer try-out days (they used to be £25 - not sure of current arrangements), although there aren't many opportunities to test hill climbing abilities in the fens.

[arvid]

I'm not your target audience, but I have seen some people go from recumbent to upright or the other way around. I don't think I've seen someone successfully go from recumbent (back) to uprights, mainly due to contact point problems.
I know Jedrik of this parish successfully went from upright to velomobile, but there surely were some iterations between that, that weren't all that successful.
Also: for someone with extended upright experience it takes quite a long time to get to the same level on a recumbent.

If you live in a lumpy area or want to do lumpy rides(like K&SW) I'd advice against a recumbent.

As a recumbent rider I'd say that there is always a wind drag advantage to uprights, about 10-15%. So instead of cruising 25km/h on the flat you'd do 27km/h, or maybe 22km/h instead of 20km/h. At a recumbent shop I once told this to a bloke who cycled (on an upright) about 25km one way to work in about an hour. So that's 5 minutes faster. After getting used to something new, which may take months. We agreed that this is not worth it, in this case.

The drawback is weight. I think most recumbents, even the racier ones, are easily about 30% heavier than comparable uprights. This is the main drawback uphill, and the aerodynamic advantage disappears at low speeds, so it looks quite bad. Only on short lumpy bits there might be some advantage for uprights in the appliance of more muscle, because there is simply a limit in the amount of power output. Just get the lowest possible gears, and you'll get up hills.

I'd say there is basically one reason to go darkside: comfort. The pain in hands and arse will be gone. Maybe the lack of these pains and the small increase in flatland speed is worth it.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Moultons are generally slightly slower climbing, much faster descending and at least as good in head and crosswinds as big-wheeled bikes. Overall speed is much the same, except for the comfort factor.

Moulton suspension isn't at all useful for chipseal vibration but is great for dealing with patchy chipseal, joints and potholes. To mitigate chipseal vibration, you need to use soft, fat, thin-casing tyres which are adequate for the choppy stuff. The problem for me (YMMV) is that fat, soft tyres 'bump steer' on road irregularities and corner like crap on fast descents, even with wide rims, so I wasn't prepared to continue past my experimental period with them.

To significantly up your cruising speed by mechanical means alone (so you can get some sleep), you are probably looking at a fast recumbent and probably at least partially faired. Otherwise it goes back to faster legs and less faffing at controls.

[Kim]

Yeah, it's all about the comfort (for values of comfort up to important parts of your anatomy not going numb and/or bleeding).

You need a recumbent-compatible riding style, so if your preference is to spin up hills in low gears and preserve all the momentum you can on the descents, you'll do well on a 'bent (once you've developed the right muscles).

As someone who does about the same miles on a 'bent as on a DF, I find that on 'normal' (say 1000m climb per 100km) terrain, a 'bent breaks even with an *equivalent* upright.  You'll have an advantage on windy flatlands, and a disadvantage on the wrong kind of hills (ie. those where you can't maintain momentum).  If you try to ride in a group with DF bike riders, you'll waste loads of energy on the brakes and have to put it back in on the climbs - if you want to ride in a group, find tandems and other recumbents who won't slow you down on the descents.

People make a big fuss about weight because it's easy to measure.  For audax-style riding a couple of kilos doesn't make that much difference (see calculations passim), especially when you've got an aero advantage to trade some of it off against.  Hill climbing is also affected by things like stability and biomechanics.  One advantage of a recumbent geometry over an upright is that as you make the riding position more aerodynamic, it becomes easier - not harder - to breathe.  My advice would be that if you're going to go darkside in the hope of decent performance, you've got to commit properly and get yourself a really scary-looking lightweight 'bent, with a laid-back riding position and as little touring bling as possible.  The classic mistake seems to be to buy easy-to-handle general purpose touring recumbents, then discover that they're slow, not put the miles in and go back to upwrongs.  Conversely, you need something you can keep balanced at or below walking speed - though large amounts of practice will help.

I wouldn't bother with trikes, unless they were fully enclosed velomobiles.  Something quick like the ICE Vortex or Windcheetah would probably work okay, but there's an easy ~10% speed bonus from not having that extra wheel slowing you down.

[L CC]

I think that most of the 'successful' 'bent riders on audax would be /are also 'successful' on uprights.

It's not really about the bike.

(We rode for a bit with A Swiss/Brazilian randonneur on LEL who thought his suspension fork was the dogs doo-dahs, maybe that's worth a shot?).

And don't forget: RichForrest packed LEL '09 because of chafing; recumbent or no, you can still get comfort issues.

[Quint]

I hope this comes over as I mean it (ie nicest possible way). The main/only (?) advantage of a bent is the pure pleasure from riding (wearing) it, performance is only attained by bloody hard work (training) and I'm afraid I have a physical defect that means I automatically turn into pubs on route to other places  . I have a Sprint 26 with a NT frame and if you live near Kidlington in Oxfordshire or can get here reasonably easily pm me and we will arrange for you to try mine, I only tour over 100k but on my 8 mile each way commute I can stay with most people who try to race me (bent trikes have bought the hooligan out in me  ). I am about your age so would suggest the extra exercise riding a bent trike ie the face muscles from the infamous "bent grin" may not do much for performance but sure as hell makes the mood better.

[Kim]

I think that most of the 'successful' 'bent riders on audax would be /are also 'successful' on uprights.

It's not really about the bike.

This.

The exception to that is when a competent rider (ie. not me, but possibly the OP) is thwarted by some kind of balance/ergonomics issue that can be solved with the appropriate geometry.  The cycle you can ride being infinitely faster than the one you can't.

[Quint]

Indeed, when my menieres first surfaced I developed the technique of keeping an eye open for verges/ditches/soft(ish) landing places to head for when the inevitable vertigo kicked in, when it goes away (as it does for a few years at a time) I can ride a DF but now enjoy my trike so much I do not bother. Indeed when my vision steadies after the initial attack I can trikle along even though I would not have the balance to walk, as the advert says luv it, luv it, luv it 

[Tigerrr]

If you are interested in recumbents - you already know the answer - it is just a matter of when you take the plunge and on what type of bike.
What Kim says is really true - there is a huge range of recumbents - and the wrong type of bike will fail your aim of keeping in audax. For instance I bought an HP speedmachine as a first ride - it is superbly built etc but weighs a lot and on a really long ride it saps my strength. I stopped audaxing it and use it as a commuter ride for which it is superb, although perhaps a tad lower than some might consider wise. I then bought a super lightweight Challenge fujin for audax - and went further and faster than I managed in my upright riding.  This would probably be what Kim calls a scary lighweight lowrider. I love this machine, even though I am on my third frame, and have replaced much of it over the years. It is supremely comfortable and after 10 hours riding I feel like I have been massaged not punished.
It takes a while to train your legs into the recumbent for maximium performance - there will be cramp, and a funny butt muscle ache - but when you do - you will rediscover the joy of fast riding, as you scalp the peloton on teh flat for the first time in your life, despite being 20 yrs older than any of them.  You will wear the recumbent smile, against which the scorn of the upright conformist is as water to a ducks back.
Until you hit the hills. As you already climb badly I suspect from your post this will not be new to you. Hills are sweaty and not so much fun, but I think they are that on any bike really if one is a bit tubby.
The lighter, faster recumbents have to be considered as project bikes/prototypes/development machines. They are not a 'product' like an identikit carbon road bike and need much fettling and tweaking to get the best. Parts fail, don't fit perfectly, gearing is a completely different game, and so on - you have to take an approach to it that embraces these issues as part of the hobby.  You box of bits will grow.
You may be tempted to fit a tail or nose fairing and join BHPC and race your machine too. You will astound yourself by doing your first 25 in the hour.  That is what 5 minutes on the hour can give you.
Not much point to a helmet either when you are 3 feet off the ground - you are not going over the handlebars - but you will land on your arse when you skid out at a corner.
The other thing with recumbents is the view. The sky opens up and you are looking downrange not down at the road in front of you.  Neck supported you see ahead and around, and breathe deeper with your chest open, diaphragm working well.
With a well designed belt - you can snack well - I did part of the Dunwich run with a tray of chips n curry sauce on my tummy, eating as I went.
I still have my uprights but last time I rode upright my numb hands and tingling wrists, plus perineal sores persuades me that I won't use them again.
Take the plunge.

[Wothill]

I've not much to add to all the good sense above. I would emphasise a couple of points. 1. For some people audaxing is all about doing a long ride with others. You can't do that so easily on a recumbent - you either brake a lot (very frustrating) or really struggle on hills, or both depending on the speed of the group relative you your own. I mainly ride alone or with a small group where hills, especially if they are not long ones, can work themselves out: you go ahead on the downs, you let them go on the ups. 2. I find the weight of the bike is more important than you would think when you consider only the effect of the extra kilos as a percentage of total weight. I have had three recumbents now; my favourite by far is an unsuspended high racer - I do almost all my audaxing on this (no aches or pains on PBP, other than tired legs and numb toes). Next is another unsuspended high racer which is a bit heavier - can take touring luggage but just feels slower than the other; last my hp velotechnik Grasshopper - a very comfy suspended 20" wheeler which just feels stodgy and slow by comparison with the others. My lightest still weighs just over 11Kg so as Arvid says - 30% heavier than a light DF. I haven't ridden more than about 15 miles at a time on a DF for the last 4 years but I am still faster up a steepish hill on it than on my best 'bent. As you say, it's probably down to the muscles you can't use so effectively.

[uphillbothways]

You can get big aero advantages if you decide to optimise for that. A Raptobike with a Novosport tailbox will cost you under £2000, but beat any TT bike by a considerable margin. Even at relatively low power outputs, a fast recumbent will trounce a fast road bike - at 100w on the flat, an upright rider on the tops of a road bike will do about 15mph, but on a good racing recumbent will do nearly 20mph.

The differences can be even greater with age, because an aggressively aero position on a recumbent is immeasurably more comfortable than the upright equivalent. You need to be young, strong and flexible to ride deep in the drops for any length of time, but a racing recumbent is still pretty much a deckchair on wheels.

[frankenthorn]

I’m wondering if, since the aerodynamic advantage would be accrued only at higher speed and the extra weight of the recumbent demands greater rider energy to get it up to that speed, for someone such as me, a recumbent actually offers no speed advantage at all in the real world?

I am likewise not a fast rider, however round an approximately 70km loop in the Austrian Alps my best average speed on a recumbent was 25.34km/h whilst my best average speed on an upright was 22.50km/h.  (This was a ~70km loop with ~1000m of climbing in it, and logically the same amount of descending.)  For reference the recumbent was a Bacchetta Giro 26 (the old pre-ATT steel model with disc brakes and recurve seats) and the upright was Focus Culebro, so arguably the upright was the "better' bike.

Climbing on an upright can be "fun" (FSVO) but climbing on a recumbent is just a drag that you have to get through.  There was a ~2km long climb of average 10% near where I used to live in Austria, my best average speed on the upright up that climb was 8.73km/h whilst on the recumbent it was 6.94km/h.  (I'm probably giving the speeds to a higher degree of precision than is warranted.)

The main difference is that by the time I'd done ~70km on the upright I wanted to get off, whereas I did 200km on the recumbent without anything other than aching legs!

[Von Broad]

So if I’m imagining that a recumbent might extend my Audaxing life, am I kidding myself or what?

Getting a recumbent to ride is one thing, but getting a recumbent to ride Audax is, well kind of the same thing, but slightly different - I'd be inclined to say that the recumbent on it's own won't extend your Audax life - not without you putting in the work.

I've gone from [homebuilt] bents back to uprights during my Audax life, and can feel a very strong urge to go back and visit the dark side once more very soon.

I'm a full value rider, virtually always in the final quarter and may be ever so slightly quicker on my upright than recumbent - but it's very very marginal. Point is, I've never attempted to improve performance in anyway whatsoever, I'm sure I could get a bit quicker if I was prepared to put he work in - cut done on the booze,

Point is, on LEL this year, sitting there in Barnard Castle [must be just short of 1000km through the ride at that point], waiting for the return riders to come through, and what comes in with the first 5 riders - guy riding an Optima Baron. Now that's a nice bike, but it's hardly at the cutting edge of road recumbents, it's been around a while, very good road bike. I sat there, full of admiration for this guy, terrific performance by 'him' I thought.....ah yes, the rider, the person doing the work, the person sitting on the damn thing, he got himself there, not the bike on it's own. We always have to keep coming back to this point. Whether DF's or bents, various bikes most definitely do make a difference, but it's always about the rider.

So I'm sitting there thinking, wow, I am just so impressed by this guy. And then I bring to mind my next project [only about 5 years gestating now] - the idea of building a carbon recumbent. My thinking being - lighter bike, easier to climb, quicker round the ride, less time pressure on longer rides. No problem. But actually, really, chances are, without decent vacuum bagging facilities, nice big autoclave, high quality uncured prepreg carbon etc, my carbon bike is not going to be that much lighter than my steels efforts, and by the time I'm sitting on it loaded down with tools, water, clothes etc how much am I really going to gaining? Hopefully some, but enough that it's going to change my performance without any extra work? Doubt it somehow. And I sat there slipping into that old habit once again - if I had this, then it would all be different....

With recumbents it's a different riding experience, and that's what you look at first I think. There are aspects of that that I absolutely love, and some aspects I don't care for quite so much, but it's always about how much work we, as riders, are prepared to put in to get the performance we want. And in my case, as history shows, that's not actually a great deal, in fact it's bugger all!

Thing is PP, to begin with go try some, and afternoon at Dtek could be fun 

[mike]

i've never properly tried a recumbent and have never done more than 300k but just my 2cents for another perspective..

When i went cheap carbon DF -> moulton TSR I was amazed by how much fresher I felt after a 6-hour century.  It was a bit slower (0.5mph?) but rode beautifully.

But then I got a posh, properly fitting Ti DF bike with 25mm tyres and it was quicker and almost as comfy as the moulton, so I flogged it - I do miss it though, they're lovely bikes.

Definitely try one!

[PloddinPedro]

Wow, quite a lot to think about there guys. Many thanks to you all for taking the time to respond.

I guess, taking it all in and generalising a bit, you’ve broadly confirmed what I really ‘knew’ all along, which is that, upright or laid back it’s much more about the engine and less about the chassis!

If I’m honest, I know the only way out of this box is to put in the hard hours and fix my power-to-weight ratio. I’m in a bit of a mental slump after LEL which, although I survived it with only 33 minutes to spare, has left me more wasted than any ride ever before.

I shall certainly explore D-Tek - he’s not too far from me - and carry on researching/fantasising. Who knows, if I do have to give up Audaxing, the Dark Side could be a whole new replacement world to explore!

Oh and to Von Broad - you may remember me as the rider you saved from packing on the Bryan Chapman a couple of years ago when you came along after your epic frame mending diversion. I failed that ride (at least I was out of time for the BRM but Mark got me a validation on BR standard) but I did it the following year and nailed it at BRM pace, so thanks again!

[Quint]

We have all (I think) failed to mention one thing, the type of machine one rides is a bit like a human/human relationship, there are people who have been together many years only for one of them to die (or whatever) and the other finds the true love of their life.
               I have owned/ridden most things from a rod braked dyno hubbed 3 speed up to lightweight racers Tandems inc a trike until one morning at 04-30 riding home in winter I looked down and saw solid ice (no pun folks) below me, I vowed that would be the last winter on 2 wheels and started looking about for an up wrong  trike, researching where to get one I stumbled on a forum where Cycleman kindly offered me a ride on his ICE Q-NT I had never heard of recumbents before, it was Toad of Toad Hall, although not having the right muscles (then) it felt so right, the downhill curves the way you can pedal properly easier, like Toad going "poop poop" it was luv it luv it luv it, shortly after I bought my first trike (a Q-NT) also a trike for my wife Barbara, we do have solo machines and every 3 months I take them outside, wipe, lube spin everything round and then go out on my trike. In other words (rambling old sod I hear in the background), try a bent and try a bent trike, you never know, it could be love. 

[PloddinPedro]

............ try a bent and try a bent trike, you never know, it could be love. 

I hear what you say, but as the saying goes, 'that way madness lies'  In my other cycling life I've not long acquired a custom Geoff Booker trike (an 'upwrong' in DarkSide speak) which I love with an unexplainable passion (and on which I'm also very S-L-O-W !) If I do go for a recumbent it's going to be hard enough to explain without having to add 'oh, and it too has one too many wheels' !

[Quint]

'that way madness lies' 

                    Quite right to, how else do explain the insane grin at the bottom of a twisty, dusty oh such fun Spanish mountain road drifting on each dusty bend, the understanding nod (l'anglais fou) from the French motor cycle cop (once we had chatted, who has clocked you going faster than the speed limit down to The Barrage de Rance, the conversations with complete strangers who end up understanding (or shaking their heads)  the passion I have for this strange (to them) looking machine.
                    Fear for your wallet, get a bigger shed, come to The Dark Side but beware, you will not wish to go back.   

  btw, my offer stands of a try if you wish, we have a Sprint 26 NT each and would be happy for you to try one,

[PloddinPedro]

...........  btw, my offer stands of a try if you wish, we have a Sprint 26 NT each and would be happy for you to try one,

That's a very kind offer ......... but I must resist, at least for the time being.

I have the domestic minefield of SWMBO/Treasurer to circumnavigate first, the initial stage of which is to sell our Longstaff longbarrow. If I do go forward with this insanity, it will have to be a protracted "slowly, slowly, catchee monkey" job !!

[Quint]

Ah, my purchase of our first two trikes was simplified by the fact that I had been side swiped almost into orbit by a twit of a motorist on my DF and after a bit of a fight I came out (in way of compensation) with just enough funds, couple that with Barbara being very keen as well and you almost were there, rubbing my eyes and looking sad finished it off 

[Chris L]

My experience is pretty much as Kim describes: used to riding around on lightweight road bikes, fascinated by recumbents, bought a Grasshopper (slow, tourer), found it slow.  I'd add that it was a bit of a PITA that because you're going to be slow uphill and fast downhill you'll spend a greater proportion of the time climbing.  In the end I fried my knees pushing too hard uphill on a 90 miler from London Margate and couldn't really look at it as a permanent installation after that.

On the plus side, I'll never forget the sunrise as I rode across Shooters Hill.  The views really are different.  Or screaming with elation as the speedo ticked past 40 on the descents. Or that everyone under 16 says, "Cool bike, mate!" and everyone over 20 says, "Aren't they dangerous?"

I flogged it and built up a DF audax bike around a Principia frame, which is absolutely the horse's doofers.

As well as exploring 'bents, it's worth having a look at having your bike fitted properly (I think the full measuring service costs around £90) and looking at a better frame and maybe some fancy-pants wheels, both of which could slip past the Treasurer in a way that a 'bent won't.

[PloddinPedro]

............... As well as exploring 'bents, it's worth having a look at having your bike fitted properly (I think the full measuring service costs around £90) and looking at a better frame and maybe some fancy-pants wheels, both of which could slip past the Treasurer in a way that a 'bent won't.

All good recommendations, but I have already gone that route. You're right to suggest it, because it did all make a big difference.

But the deficiencies of the engine are such that I still need more speed! Actually, if I analyse it thoroughly, I could probably get away with more comfort. More comfort would mean less dropping off in speed over the longer distances, which is where I'm deficient. Even after having optimised my position, I still suffer from damage to hands and to a degree, perineum.

My logic is that if I could get onto a recumbent without adding too much weight to the bike c.f. my DF upright, the added comfort on backside and hands would tip the whole comparison in favour of the 'bent sufficient to gain enough speed/time to sleep decently on longer Audaxes.

That's what I'm trying to persuade myself anyway !

[Quint]

you are talking recumbent trikes, a (fast) laid back method of transport 

[Jedrik]

Since I've been mentioned, here some anecdata: The last time I rode my DF-like bicycle was LEL 2009. After being helped off my bike earlier the same year my right shoulder wasn't in prime condition any more, compensation for this got both ulnar and carpal nerves in my left hand incapacitated for a couple of month. I'm quite fond of functionality in my hands and with a bit of persuasion from a friend I ended up on a bent starting autumn of 2009.

2010 was not a happy season for me. The recumbent I had gotten for myself was more of slightly heavy tourer, fully suspended, too, and I was awfully slow on it, even on the flats. It gave me a good idea how one might get oneself to believe to be the major of Mortagne. Add to that that I'm vertically challenged.  This not only meant I had not a lot of options to choose from, it also meant the profit from better aerodynamics was rather smaller than that of a taller person. Thankfully Challenge made their modells in a "mini" version if you asked nicely, so I got myself a Fujin SL, which at least got me over some more hilly routes so I could do a whole SR series. However it did not get me over the even more hilly HBKH, on which I managed to dislocate the peroneal tendon sheath on my right foot: After some of germany's finest hills the tendon ran above the ancle rather than below. 

Once I got that healed I seriously started training (yeah, right, it obviously will always come to that). There is a knack to riding recumbents on the more scenic routes and after quite a few miles I had finally got the hang of that and the legs to deal with it. I did PBP in less than 80 hours, profiting from a privileged starting time with the special needs group. 

I've ridden the Quest XS velomobil for nearly exactly a year before taking it to LEL. Mindful of 2010 I trained (yes, again this ugly word) my legs to cope with the high weight. It's not really easy to get one's mind wrapped around the difference in speed between crawling uphill with rider after rider passing you, and bombing down before braking hard in order to make the next turn at a safe speed. It is very different from what you are used riding a DF.

So, whatever you do, it will come to nothing without training. On a recumbent you will be more comfortable, though. Less reason to get off here or there. I rode most legs of LEL without a stop between controls and I never mind getting onto (or into) it again. I don't get as tired riding a recumbent and I can sleep better once I lie down to do so, which leaves me well rested. All very important, since I'm not a fast rider.
 
I'm still faster on my DFs, especially uphill. Just not for the long haul.