Drop-bar touring bike shifters quandary - Sora STI vs Dura Ace Bar Ends vs ???

[Torslanda]

Who was the friend of Professor Branestawm whose head used to go 'round and round' every time he listened to him explain something?



Coz I know what I'm doing and I'm utterly confused right now . . .

[Brucey]

I would have bought some brake levers (eg BL-R400) and some bar end shifters and just got on with it. 

At risk of provoking further decision paralysis, this page

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares-other/

contains some potentially useful items, including Paul's, Kelly's and Jtek brackets that allow DT shifters to be mounted elsewhere e.g. on the handlebar. The J-tek brackets are cheapest but seem only to come in 22.2mm which means they will need to be fitted to an accessory bracket of some kind.

There is also an eccentric shim that allows a large (34.9mm) band-on clamp FD to be mounted off centre on a 28.6mm seat tube, which overcomes some of the issues concerned with using a road FD on an MTB chainset.

cheers

[zigzag]

[i've just read the op] it looks like an mtb triple in the front and a wide range (e.g. 11-36..40) cassette would work fine, i'd move to a 10sp setup to reduce the gaps between gears. i've configured my new gravel bike with 42/30 and 11-36 - it's working sweet with 4600 shifters and front mech and a 5701 mid cage rear mech.

[Oxford_Guy]

After speaking to my LBS (Warlands, Oxford), I think I'm going to give the Dura Ace 7700 bar end shifters a go. Think initially, at least, I'm going to keep the Tektro 720 cantis, though perhaps change the brake levers  e.g. to BL-R400 (though Warlands did say an alternative they could do would just be to remove the shifting components from my Campag Veloce levers, which is possible, apparently! Tempting, as I like the ergonomics of them, though they could do with new hoods...). I may revisit the brake options at a later date, though.

[Karla]

Seriously, take Torslanda's advice and change those cantis for a decent set of brakes!

[Oxford_Guy]

Seriously, take Torslanda's advice and change those cantis for a decent set of brakes!

Warlands seemed to think there would be fitment issues for either mini-Vs or full length V-brakes due to the mudguards and/or the stays for the Tubus rear rack, so I may have to stick with Cantis - though I would definitely be up for considering some better ones! Any other recommendations for better cantis than my Tektro 720?

[Karla]

V's are a fundamentally better design, so I'd get some and fettle my way around any clearance problems.  If you post some pictures on here we might be able to advise on how to do this.

[Brucey]

I think the route you are going is sensible.  I would suggest BR-CX50/70 brakes as offering more power and more adjustablity than CR720s, should this be needed.

FWIW I will happily use Vs on an MTB but on a touring bike that already has canti fittings it is not at all tempting to change to Vs. The reasons I feel this way are severalfold;

1) If you can't get cantis to work then you have chosen the parts/setup poorly or your cables are crap or something.

2) Vs are vulnerable to being damaged; if the steering swings to one side the yoke can be damaged where the V-pipe engages and this can leave you with a brake that may then fail without any warning. This exact fault is seen several times a week in an LBS near me.

3) to me, Vs just look ruddy horrible on a touring bike; like they fell out of the ugly tree, colliding heavily with every single branch on the way down.

cheers

[Karla]

Brake judder: a problem that is inherent to cantilever brakes, and enough reason to avoid them.

[Brucey]

Brake judder: a problem that is inherent to cantilever brakes, and enough reason to avoid them.

if it were a problem in this case, doubtless the OP would have noticed by now...

[andyoxon]

Re OP, if it's of any use, on my audax steel framed bike I upgraded from an ageing 8-speed set-up, to a less ageing 10spd 105 5703 triple with the 30t small ring swapped for a 26t stronglight ring (going to try 24t), 105 shifters & front mech, and Deore M591 9 Speed long Rear Mech with a Tiagra 11-32 10 speed cassette.  Vast improvement, though the chainset doesn't look as good.   

[Karla]

Brake judder: a problem that is inherent to cantilever brakes, and enough reason to avoid them.

if it were a problem in this case, doubtless the OP would have noticed by now...

... or has been living with inferior braking for years, and is about to experience the wonders of modern brake technology 

[Paul H]

Seriously, take Torslanda's advice and change those cantis for a decent set of brakes!

Warlands seemed to think there would be fitment issues for either mini-Vs or full length V-brakes due to the mudguards and/or the stays for the Tubus rear rack, so I may have to stick with Cantis - though I would definitely be up for considering some better ones! Any other recommendations for better cantis than my Tektro 720?

On my Cheviot SE (2003 model so may not be the same as yours) the top of a full size V brake on the rear will be the same height as the rack fitting, I use the 90mm arm Shimano V's instead without problem.  On the front there's no issue, unless you're using a dynamo light, the cable between the arms is at the same height as the hole in the forks, depending on the light there may be a bracket to overcome this. 

[Oxford_Guy]

Brake judder: a problem that is inherent to cantilever brakes, and enough reason to avoid them.

if it were a problem in this case, doubtless the OP would have noticed by now...

... or has been living with inferior braking for years, and is about to experience the wonders of modern brake technology 

I do get a little judder when braking hard on the front, though it's not a big issue...

[Oxford_Guy]

Seriously, take Torslanda's advice and change those cantis for a decent set of brakes!

Warlands seemed to think there would be fitment issues for either mini-Vs or full length V-brakes due to the mudguards and/or the stays for the Tubus rear rack, so I may have to stick with Cantis - though I would definitely be up for considering some better ones! Any other recommendations for better cantis than my Tektro 720?

On my Cheviot SE (2003 model so may not be the same as yours) the top of a full size V brake on the rear will be the same height as the rack fitting, I use the 90mm arm Shimano V's instead without problem.  On the front there's no issue, unless you're using a dynamo light, the cable between the arms is at the same height as the hole in the forks, depending on the light there may be a bracket to overcome this.

I'm using a dynamo light (Schmidt Edelux II) mounted just above the wheel.

I should probably take some pictures of my setup, will try to do so at the weekend....

[Oxford_Guy]

I think the route you are going is sensible.  I would suggest BR-CX50/70 brakes as offering more power and more adjustablity than CR720s, should this be needed.

FWIW I will happily use Vs on an MTB but on a touring bike that already has canti fittings it is not at all tempting to change to Vs. The reasons I feel this way are severalfold;

1) If you can't get cantis to work then you have chosen the parts/setup poorly or your cables are crap or something.

2) Vs are vulnerable to being damaged; if the steering swings to one side the yoke can be damaged where the V-pipe engages and this can leave you with a brake that may then fail without any warning. This exact fault is seen several times a week in an LBS near me.

3) to me, Vs just look ruddy horrible on a touring bike; like they fell out of the ugly tree, colliding heavily with every single branch on the way down.

cheers

3) is obviously the most important of these

Actually that's one of my issues with the the CR720s, the way they stick out is not the most attractive design....

[Brucey]

Some mid-arm cantis that (if set up with low straddles etc) offer more power than CR720 include

- Tektro CR710
- Tektro Oryx (and the similar cane creek canti) (although NB these brakes  benefit from a small mod if used with a low straddle)
- Avid shorty (at least three different versions)
- Shimano BR-CX50/70
- Shimano Altus (post mount blocks), if the arms are spread slightly more than normal

If you should get judder this often signifies that the front wheel isn't perfect. In any event it can be easily cured by using an uphanger.

This is CR710 set with a low straddle



set thusly a two finger squeeze, unladen, will see you lift the rear wheel.

This is Avid shorty 6 with a low straddle



similar power to the above brake.

This is the later version of Avid shorty 4



and is an object lesson in how to get the least power from this brake. The straddle is set high, so that the virtual arm length (the distance along a horizontal that goes through the bosses to where a projection of the straddle wire intercepts) is almost as short as possible. As configured the brake will be no more powerful than a CR720.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

Thanks @Brucey !

There's also the Avid Shorty Ultimate - is this as good as it looks? Price is a bit nuts, but you can pay that much for disc brakes easily...

https://www.sram.com/sram/road/products/avid-shorty-ultimate

[Oxford_Guy]

Or these perhaps?

VELO ORANGE GRAND CRU ZESTE CANTILEVER BRAKE
http://freshtripe.co.uk/velo-orange-grand-cru-zeste-cantilever-brake/

[Oxford_Guy]

BTW how do the Cane Creek SCR-5C  levers compare braking-perfomance wise with cantis to the Shimano BL-R400s? It's just that the Cane Creek levers have the Campag Ergo shape I'm used to (and which I really like)? The costs are similar.

[Brucey]

There are quite a few spendy cantis...  the ones I have listed thus far represent the 'good value' end of the spectrum.

The main advantage of the Avid shorty ultimate

 is that if you really can't make up your mind how you want you brakes to work, you can convert from wide arm (low MA, like CR720) to mid-arm (high MA) configuration as well as adjust the straddle height.  They are also better made with nicer pivots too but in any one configuration you might be hard pushed to tell the difference between them and other brakes.

The VO brakes are a similar geometry as the Piranha/Curve cantis from the 1990s.  They can be set to give very high MA (arms splayed slightly and low straddle) or very low MA (arms tucked in, high straddle as depicted below)


as you wish.  They are nicely made and they are (in this category) almost good value; £100 buys a set for front and rear.

These are Piranha/curve brakes;



-also available in less, er, colourful variants. These pop up on ebay from time to time.


Also in the spendy category are the Paul's 'touring' canti brakes.


 These are similar to the above but have slightly cranked arms and (because they don't use post mount brake blocks) the arm spread can't be adjusted through such a wide range. They still have a lot of adjustment via straddle height, and can be set to give very high power if that is wanted.

One reason for choosing the VO or Pauls brakes is that even if you have recent STIs with NSSLR cable pull, you will still be able to adjust the brake MA to a high value.

cheers

[mcshroom]

This thread seems to have drifted a long way from your initial post. If you are happy with everything else on the bike then I would suggest going for the Sora STI route with a new front mech.

I have a Sora FD-3403 front mech on my Dawes Horizon which was happy to work with an Alivio chainset which is 42-32-22. All I did find is that the (Square Taper) BB fitted to the bike was a few mm narrower than the one specified in the techdoc for the chainset, which I guess was to cover the difference in chainline. This is on an 8sp set up using 2300/2303 shifters.

By all means, if you fancy making lots of changes then there's a lot of very good advice above, but if you are happy with what you have, then maybe stick with it?

[Brucey]

BTW how do the Cane Creek SCR-5C  levers compare braking-perfomance wise with cantis to the Shimano BL-R400s? It's just that the Cane Creek levers have the Campag Ergo shape I'm used to (and which I really like)? The costs are similar.

I think the cane creek levers are based on a tektro design.  I am not sure if they are shooting for the NSSLR cable pull or not.  If they are, (which I think is likely) they will give rather wooden and feeble braking with a lot of cantis. (As will Sora STIs, obviously.... )

 Even if they are not then the brake power likely won't be as good as BL-R400; IIRC the shimano lever has a variable mechanical advantage such that the lever progressively goes from high pull/low MA to low pull/high MA through the lever stroke. This means that the brakes get more powerful the further back the levers are pulled, which is a neat trick.

[BTW if you pair the BL-R400 lever with a NSSLR caliper, and happen to have the pads in the top of the slots, the brake power is way too much; until you get used to it (which might never happen) then you will tend to chuck yourself over the handlebars in an emergency.]

cheers

[Blodwyn Pig]

If you decide to go for sti, I have an almost new pair of 2016 tiagra 3 x 10  levers spare. Took them off Olive after 50 miles, and put on old 8/9 speed bar cons, running in friction mode, operating campag veloce fr & r mechs, with 10 sp shimano rear cassette. If you change to bar cons, just leave your brake levers on, with all the gubbins in side and pull out the gear cable. Ran mine like that for 5+ years on another bike.A 10 sp cassette will IIRC fit on your 9 sp free hun body.Spa  / stronglight for the chainsets and bb me thinks.  Or..do what folks used to do, before the throw away society, just buy new rings. Re brakes etc, if it all works well enough,( you are still using it aren't you) then leave well alone,it'll turn into a full rebuild otherwise. Re bar cons, if you run bar cons in friction, your 'worn out' rear mech will work fine, as you quickly get used to trimming, and you can then run any rear mech, with any (campy or shim) rear wheel, 8/9/10/11 sp. I would NEVER go back to sti, even my full sus mtb runs 8 sp thumbshifters in friction mode. OR.... Run bar con for rear mech, on lhs of bars, and downtube shifter for front, on lhs, then put an insert bar end mirror on the rhs, after all, you do all the gear changing with your left hand when you drive.

[Karla]

OR.... Run bar con for rear mech, on lhs of bars, and downtube shifter for front, on lhs, then put an insert bar end mirror on the rhs, after all, you do all the gear changing with your left hand when you drive.

Bar con on one side, downtube on other? 

MY EYES, THEY BURN!!!