[HAMR] New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1

[Freya]

Every single year record before Kurt was ridden 1 Jan to 31 Dec. This was at the expense of not having a bike to ride during the first few days for one or two of the record holders.

Well, that would make 2016 a great year to attempt the record cos that means you would get an extra day to do it in......

[LMT]

The official results spreadsheet which was last updated on the 11th makes no mention of Bruce Berkeley. That would tend to suggest a problem with his entry.

Well, that would make 2016 a great year to attempt the record cos that means you would get an extra day to do it in......

You don't, as has been mentioned before.

[Citizenfish]

I think Jo's research has indicated that it is some way in excess of 76000, but I can't remember exactly where he mentioned this. No doubt Citizen Fish is the person to ask.

The figure is 77201 miles I am pretty confident in this total after a lot of cross checking of his diary numbers. BUT BUT BUT as stated by Jo and others this record has ALWAYS been about miles from a stated start date. The same stands for the month record as well. Godwin rode further than Brice in a month but never stated his intention to do so and hence cannot retrospectively claim the record.

The UMCA officially recognise Godwin's 75,065 figure as a "benchmark" not a record. Kurt has the year record and someone should update Wikipedia etc.. accordingly. I will when I get a moment.

[danridesbikes]

Why is this coming from Hoppo and not the UMCA or Bruce?

The cynic in me says is saying that Hoppo has made a complaint and it has been upheld by the UMCA.

from Hoppo on Facebook

In answer to the questions being raised on YACF as to why it is on here first is.....
1. I have my finger on the pulse!
2. I do not and will not use YACF!
3. I have said that if you want to know what is going on 1st you need to be on here!!

[LMT]

Why is this coming from Hoppo and not the UMCA or Bruce?

The cynic in me says is saying that Hoppo has made a complaint and it has been upheld by the UMCA.

from Hoppo on Facebook

In answer to the questions being raised on YACF as to why it is on here first is.....
1. I have my finger on the pulse!
2. I do not and will not use YACF!
3. I have said that if you want to know what is going on 1st you need to be on here!!

post edited - it does not help anyone - apologies.

[red marley]

An unnecessarily confrontational response (by LMT) in the lack of actual information. I feel regret that for whatever reason, the whole of YACF is seen as somewhere Hoppo doesn't respect. Perhaps responses like that above only confirm prejudice about this place.

[drgannet]

The figure is 77201 miles I am pretty confident in this total after a lot of cross checking of his diary numbers.
[/quote

Can you remember between which dates this occurred (and does it exclude 29th February)?

[mattc]

An unnecessarily confrontational response (by LMT) in the lack of actual information. I feel regret that for whatever reason, the whole of YACF is seen as somewhere Hoppo doesn't respect. Perhaps responses like that above only confirm prejudice about this place.

Another possible UCR:

(click to show/hide)

Are we allowed to post our Thoughts on Hoppo on YACF?
Or even: Thoughts on The Words and Deeds of Hoppo?

[Ham]

I don't know about that, but as we are re-posting facebook comments, here's the latest, with which I have some sympathy:

Chris, don't you think it's you that should be giving the UMCA a chance to make an official announcement before posting AND tagging Bruce for all to see? It makes the UMCA look disgraceful if this is how they communicate to athletes and followers of the record. Is that really why they tell Crew Chiefs first, so that they can post 'WOW' messages on social media and blame the time difference on not being able to provide a better message? It shows zero respect to Bruce, someone that's dedicating a year of his life to this record and by doing so is also promoting the UMCA. What a slap in the face!

[mattc]

That would be a great shame if Bruce's efforts are not authenticated by UMCA or another 'official' body. He's got off to a cracking start and shows every sign of possessing the drive and consistency necessary to break the record.

I am a believer in a 'crowdsourced validation' – if we trust the record, it has de facto legitimacy. My only slight reservation, apart from the need to be reassured that the logged miles are legitimate, is that the recording mechanism of previous records does itself have a cost to the riders, so makes comparisons a little more difficult if future record holders were not obliged to follow the same. In Tommy's case, most obviously, was the need for signed witness cards, which over the year must have accumulated a lot of 'wasted' time. In Steve's case, we know of at least one day where problems with the spot satellite tracker cost him some time to sort out. Perhaps this isn't much in the scheme of things, but something to consider.

Completely agree with your 1st point. We really dont need a 'world boxing champion' type farce

But another factor against crowdsourced validation:
Imagine Bruce breaks the record without the UMCA. He might become known as the record-holder if us, Strava and Cycling Weekly believe him. Fine so far ...

Then further UMCA riders come along. Hoppo breaks Bruce's record, then Steve puts another 5000 miles on top etc etc ( )
There will then be a list on the UMCA site with no mention of Bruce's ride. A sad situation.

[Ham]

That would be a great shame if Bruce's efforts are not authenticated by UMCA or another 'official' body. He's got off to a cracking start and shows every sign of possessing the drive and consistency necessary to break the record.

I am a believer in a 'crowdsourced validation' – if we trust the record, it has de facto legitimacy. My only slight reservation, apart from the need to be reassured that the logged miles are legitimate, is that the recording mechanism of previous records does itself have a cost to the riders, so makes comparisons a little more difficult if future record holders were not obliged to follow the same. In Tommy's case, most obviously, was the need for signed witness cards, which over the year must have accumulated a lot of 'wasted' time. In Steve's case, we know of at least one day where problems with the spot satellite tracker cost him some time to sort out. Perhaps this isn't much in the scheme of things, but something to consider.

Completely agree with your 1st point. We really dont need a 'world boxing champion' type farce

But another factor against crowdsourced validation:
Imagine Bruce breaks the record without the UMCA. He might become known as the record-holder if us, Strava and Cycling Weekly believe him. Fine so far ...

Then further UMCA riders come along. Hoppo breaks Bruce's record, then Steve puts another 5000 miles on top etc etc ( )
There will then be a list on the UMCA site with no mention of Bruce's ride. A sad situation.

I suspect ultimately that will be more UMCA's problem than Bruce's. Given that he is doing it with major sponsorship from some big cycling product manufacturers,  many more people will know about Bruce than will know about UMCA. A great shame if it does start fractioning, though.

[drgannet]

A great shame if it does start fractioning, though.

It's already started, because UMCA will not recognise Kajsa's attempt if she succeeds (will be interesting to see if they replace Billie's "target" on their website).

[Willesden guy]

I emailed Drew Clark of UMCA a few days ago, asking about the missing data on Steve's chart, and the answer was he does not maintain that chart, it relies on Strava data that does not always work well.

I asked why Bruce Berkeley was not on their charts and the answer was "depends on how soon and completely he complies".

So, it seems they haven't logged any of his rides.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

An unnecessarily confrontational response (by LMT) in the lack of actual information. I feel regret that for whatever reason, the whole of YACF is seen as somewhere Hoppo doesn't respect. Perhaps responses like that above only confirm prejudice about this place.

Another possible UCR:

(click to show/hide)

Are we allowed to post our Thoughts on Hoppo on YACF?
Or even: Thoughts on The Words and Deeds of Hoppo?

Truth hurts sometimes.

If we open up Hoppo threads here, mods will be very likely to close them.

[macnark]

Did UMCA ever acknowledge Wilko's 541 mile 24 hr record?

If not, does that mean he didn't do it?

I am not a fan of 'members only' records.  We are all just individuals on a small rock
doing our best, whether in USA, UK, Australia etc.

I'd like there to be cross-recognition between competent bodies to make a world record
which was adjudicated by one body be accepted by another, if the rules are common.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Did UMCA ever acknowledge Wilko's 541 mile 24 hr record?

If not, does that mean he didn't do it?

I am not a fan of 'members only' records.  We are all just individuals on a small rock
doing our best, whether in USA, UK, Australia etc.

I'd like there to be cross-recognition between competent bodies to make a world record
which was adjudicated by one body be accepted by another, if the rules are common.

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.

The Brits are almost as bad though. Wilko set the End to End record on a faired recumbent and the Road Records Association doesn't recognise it, because apparently they don't recognise recumbents at all (same at Cycling Time Trials). This despite Wilko's ride being timed by RRA folk and being held under RRA rules.

The UMCA used to have limited recognition of existing records but that approach seems to have died out.

[Ian H]

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.

Kind of like every other cycling body. 

Bruce Berkeley signed up to the UMCA rules, so you might imagine he wanted to play by them.  He says it's their administrative error, so perhaps there's a discussion going on (Kurt argued with UMCA and won on one or two occasions).

[Ham]

The only suggestion (which has no provenance so is little more than tittle tattle) is that he hasn't been using a tracker. I assume this is a tracking service as opposed to a GPX recorder, which he clearly is. It sounds like a frightfully easy thing to fix, if it is.

[danridesbikes]

17 days in though, surely they would have flagged him for that sooner?

[Exit Stage Left]

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.

The Brits are almost as bad though. Wilko set the End to End record on a faired recumbent and the Road Records Association doesn't recognise it, because apparently they don't recognise recumbents at all (same at Cycling Time Trials). This despite Wilko's ride being timed by RRA folk and being held under RRA rules.

The UMCA used to have limited recognition of existing records but that approach seems to have died out.

The situation with Wilko's Windcheetah ride would have been annoying if he hadn't been the record holder on a conventional bike at the same time. It was interesting to compare the two results.

I quite like the multiplicity of different bodies, it allows people to judge who they feel has the 'Right Stuff'.

There'll be people who think Guy Martin's 24 hour UMCA tandem record is significant, while others realise that they'd started out trying to beat the Goodfellows' tandem record, and realised that was too challenging.

Ranking these 'records' makes a diverting activity for a cold January evening.

[Frank9755]

Yes, there's no universal authority on things like this.  It's up to each of us to choose who and what we recognise as the record. 

[Jacamo]

No, the UMCA ignore everything that isn't done by their rules, kind of like Guinness.

They even ignore non-UMCA member racers in races that they sanction. You could come in dead last, yet if you were the only UMCA member in that race you'd be listed as finishing #1 and get 1st place points towards UMCA challenges. Hoppo uses this to great benefit. Outside of a handful of races, he only attends those with limited competition, and/or those with a limited UMCA membership taking part. 

[Exit Stage Left]

There are different levels of authority. 'Records' occur in different contexts. Sightings of birds are 'Records', as are weather data. We often use 'Records' as shorthand for the highest recorded figure, but that's readily discounted if the recorder has little track record.

[simonp]

Can a nonmember win an audax uk points championship?

[TimC]

I think, given the ease with which GPX/TCX tracks can be edited, the need for an independent tracker is a reasonable precaution for a recognising body to take, whoever they might be. If there's an issue with that (eg it's not working/he didn't get one/it's not recording in the correct format or place), then I hope it's being sorted out behind the scenes. If it means Bruce has to start again - just like Steve and Miles did - then, bummer, but so be it. No matter how much faith you have in Bruce (or anyone else), a series of Strava recordings isn't secure enough to reliably claim a record.