End of life wheels

[Graeme]

When you think your wheels are worn out, what do you do?

I seem to get through a pair of wheels in about 2 years. One bike ridden all year round ballpark 5000 miles pa of hilly countryside. I try not to brake unless I have to, but sometimes winter mush and grime seems to take its toll on the wheel rims.

Over the last 6 years I've simply gone back to Rose Bikes and bought one of their bargain touring wheelsets - £160 for a pair of wheels with Shimano dynamo hub feels like good value and I don't seem to see anything in the UK market that competes on value so (in ignorance) I keep going back to Rose. Now that I have a few 'worn out' wheels hung in the garage and a couple of new ones on the bike I don't really want to throw the old ones away. I'm sure the Shimano hubs are fine. Is it a good idea - a cost effective idea - to buy a wheel building setup and learn to replace the rims? Is that what others would do at this point? Do I need to buy spokes, rims and a wheel-building kit to get started and will I save money in the long run. I'm all mixed up and incoherent in my question - I want to be more environmentally friendly and I don't want to throw these wheels away just because the rims are worn, but is that what everyone else does? I also want my bike to be reliable and I don't know if recycling my hubs will give me reliable wheels.

What do you do?

[Kim]

I'd replace the rims.  It's not rocket surgery:  The most difficult aspect of wheelbuilding is getting a) the right length spokes in b) the right order, and to do a like-for-like rim swap you don't have to know about any of that - just tape the new rim to the old one with the valve holes lined up and move the spokes across one by one.  A truing stand will help, but you can use an upside-down bike and some brightly-coloured cable ties if you have to.

Probably a good idea to service the hubs while you're at it.

If you've got a collection of worn-out wheels, then you're all set to practice wheel truing and hub servicing without breaking anything important.

Alternatively, use disc/drum brakes - then the rims only need replacing if they're crash-damaged or corroded.

[Ian H]

Wheel-building kit = jig and spoke key.  Best to start with a front wheel as they're more forgiving.  I like Jobst Brandt's The Bicycle Wheel as an instruction manual, but others have different preferences.

Replace the rim each time and the spokes every third or fourth time. 

Whether you save money or not is a moot point; almost certainly not if you factor in your time. 

[Graeme]

The simple matter of 'being encouraged' is already making a difference to my thinking. Thank you both.

I think I'm going to give it a go.

[Kim]

Whether you save money or not is a moot point; almost certainly not if you factor in your time.

I reckon this depends on whether you can get off the shelf wheels (I got into wheelbulding on account of wanting a dynamo hub on my recumbent), and how much value you attribute to a skill which could get you out of trouble mid-ride, or just save a visit to a bike shop.

[jsabine]

The simple matter of 'being encouraged' is already making a difference to my thinking. Thank you both.

I think I'm going to give it a go.

I'd definitely give it a go. It's really satisfying riding on wheels you've built yourself - even if 'built' is only actually re-rimming - and it gives you a lot more confidence in your ability to sort out an out of true wheel or a broken spoke, at the roadside of necessary.

Jobst's book is great, other folk rate the Musson one and a ever, Sheldon Brown has words of wisdom. A spoke key is the only thing you *need* (almost certainly a red Spokey will see you right for about a fiver), but after that I'd probably go for a dishing tool before a wheel jig - I find it easy enough to true a wheel in a frame, but turning it round to check for centring is a pain in the proverbial.

[Ben T]

Discs.

[T42]

Around 4 years ago I noted that the back wheel on my old Ti beast would need changing "soon", but then I got a new bike and never bothered. Now the new bike is awaiting a chainring and I'm wondering how many km I can ride the Ti before something goes spang. I've put about 700k on it since 2016.

Earlier this year I bought a truing jig. Maybe I'll try a rebuild too.

[DuncanM]

If you can get rims that are close to the ones you have now, then you can just do the tape and move thing as Kim suggested. It's kinda fun, and all you need is a spoke key (turn the bike upside down and use the forks as as truing stand for the front to start with)
A word of warning - don't just assume you can do this with any replacement rim though - you need ones that have approximately the right hole diameter so the spoke sizes match up. I'm sure if you post up what rims you would want to replace the yacf hive mind can suggest some similar ones...

[jsabine]

how much value you attribute to a skill which could get you out of trouble mid-ride, or just save a visit to a bike shop.

Aye. When I decided at 10pm the night before a notoriously hilly audax that I really wasn't comfortable with how concave my front rim had become, it was a bit late to turn to any bike shop ...

[Nuncio]

Do it. I've just been through it twice, once before I had a jig and once after, 'just' re-rimming both times (with the same rim make/model), and using You Tube for reference. I enjoyed the iterative nature of the exercise despite it sometimes feeling like a one-step-back-2-steps forward exercise. Starting from scratch still feels daunting to me for reasons given above.

I'm confident now of being able to create a true wheel through re-rimming, but I'm not sure I'm getting the tension right. How can I tell, without a tensionmeter? (Or tuning fork?)

[T42]

If you can get rims that are close to the ones you have now, then you can just do the tape and move thing as Kim suggested. It's kinda fun, and all you need is a spoke key (turn the bike upside down and use the forks as as truing stand for the front to start with)
A word of warning - don't just assume you can do this with any replacement rim though - you need ones that have approximately the right hole diameter so the spoke sizes match up. I'm sure if you post up what rims you would want to replace the yacf hive mind can suggest some similar ones...

Yeah. IIRC Mavic are prone to changing the specs of Open Pro.

[Little Jim]

I was a bit disappointed on opening this thread - given the title and the OP's job I was expecting something on a bike powered hearse.

However: this is exactly the reason I started wheel building and as others have said a rim swap is the ideal way to get started.  I used Roger Musson's e-book, but I'm sure the others also mentioned are just as good.  If you are really not confident in having a go why not try and swap one of the knackered rims over that way all you "waste" is your time, but I find it a very therapeutic thing to do so to me it wouldn't be a waste of time anyway.  You only need the spoke key, a truing jig and a dishing tool can come later if you enjoy doing it.  Roger Musson gives a template for a DIY dishing jig which I then altered to make my own and it works very well, although I have now discovered that I really really really need want an Abbey Tools dishing tool.

[Kim]

I own a dishing tool, but I find flipping the wheel over in the stand is less hassle.  Maybe I'm doing something wrong...

[jsabine]

I'm not sure I'm getting the tension right. How can I tell, without a tensionmeter? (Or tuning fork?)

Practice, and comparison. About as tight as decent hand-built wheels, not quite as bar-taut as low spoke-count factory wheels, much tighter than the machine-built wheels on new bikes that haven't been gone over by someone with a clue ...

If the spoke key has got difficult to turn, so that you have to go past the point you want and then back off a touch to release wind-up; if squeezing pairs of spokes hard enough to hurt your hands doesn't result in significant movement; if plucking spokes around the wheel gives a reasonably narrow spread of tones, you're probably OK.

[jsabine]

I own a dishing tool, but I find flipping the wheel over in the stand is less hassle.  Maybe I'm doing something wrong...

Maybe I just like using the dishing tool ...

Flipping it in the stand isn't a big problem (though I'm never sure how repeatable position in my stand is), but flipping it in the frame is more so.

If I was starting and had, say, sixty quid, I think I'd be better off getting a Spokey, a dishing tool and a spare rim than I would be spending the money on a Spokey and a wheel jig.

[arabella]

if squeezing pairs of spokes hard enough to hurt your hands doesn't result in significant movement;

depends on your hands of course.  I probably do everything far too light/weak on account of not being big'n'beefy.  otoh I've never over-tightened anything

[Graeme]

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tools/spokey-pro-red-for-euro-us-spokes/

That's a nice little device.

[Graeme]

Hmmm. The seems to be a significant difference between TK540 and TK421. I'll stick with TK540 rims because I can't get an answer from TK421.

[mark]

Forget about saving money, and if you attach any value to your time you'll lose money. But learning to build your own wheels is immensely satisfying in the long run, and learning how wheels are built and how they work is fun too. Jobst Brandt's book is excellent, and so is "The Art of Wheelbuilding", by Gerd Schraner. The two books offer two very different perspectives on wheel building, Brandt having held a degree in engineering and Schraner having been a race mechanic.

I use a cheap truing stand and dishing tool that I bought in the early 1980s, and Park spoke tools. After I bought a cheap Park tensiometer my wheels improved dramatically, staying true much longer. Someone who built enough wheels could probably learn to judge spoke tension by feel and sound, but I've never been very good at that. I've had the opportunity to use a shop quality Park truing stand and they are much nicer to use than my cheap stand, but I don't see an expensive truing stand as a necessity for a home wheel builder.

[Kim]

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tools/spokey-pro-red-for-euro-us-spokes/

That's a nice little device.

Beware of cheap imitations, which will pingfuckit the business end at an awkward moment.

Personally, I prefer the Park Tools spoke keys, but mainly because they give you a bit more room to manoeuvre when dealing with small wheels.

Life's too short for cheap nasty spoke keys, and (other than multi-tools for roadside use only) avoid anything with more than one nipple size on the same tool: You'll inevitably use the wrong one at some point and round the nipple.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Rim transplants are relatively easy on 700c wheels. Brompton-sized wheels are a pain. I don't know how many 700c wheels I've done, not a lot, maybe 5 or 6 including transplants. It isn't a job to rush, but doesn't take many hours.

Never had a truing jig. Pegs on a frame worked well enough for me.

Disc brakes are a revelation. Haven't had to build a new wheel for a very long time (mind you, my mileage has dropped off a lot).

[Kim]

Brompton wheels are a pain generally, as nothing quite fits.  You can forget about spoke tension meters.  On the other hand, small wheels are inherently strong, so it's hard to go too badly wrong.

I've done a couple of rim transplants on 20" wheels without drama.

[Graeme]

Consider me thoroughly encouraged! Thank you everyone I appreciate this support.

For quite a while I've been mulling that some jobs (like my previous career) have no practical end product to show for my effort, and although I have always been blessed with job satisfaction it would have been nice to be able to point to something and say, "I made that". An object I could pick up. Something physical. I imagine that artists and artisans enjoy the process as much as the end product (provided there is food in the table and a roof over your head).

(click to show/hide)

Analytical Chemistry was mainly about taking apart mixtures other people had made and checking they were right.
IT support was about undoing the mess other people had made and putting it back the way it should be.
Sales was about finding the right object to fix a problem in return for the right money.
Product management was about helping people to communicate and being responsible for the mess when they didn't.

I like the idea of doing something that requires patience and leaves me with an object I can hold and use at the end of the effort.

Kim, I thought people were recommending a Spokey - did I misunderstand? I have a Park Tool spoke key - I assume that'll be fine. I wondered if a Spokey was a special spoke key for some reason.

[andrew_s]

Aye. When I decided at 10pm the night before a notoriously hilly audax that I really wasn't comfortable with how concave my front rim had become, it was a bit late to turn to any bike shop ...

Good move.
Better than having the rim split 120 km into the Brevet Cymru 400, like wot I did.

I have a Park Tool spoke key - I assume that'll be fine. I wondered if a Spokey was a special spoke key for some reason.

A Park spoke key is fine, provided it's the right size (black if it will fit, otherwise green, as far as I remember).

I prefer the Spokey Pro (red) though. It grips the nipples by 3 corners, rather than 3 sides like the Park, which is a bit less likely to deform the nipple if it gets really tight (or has seized on)