LEL costs and entry price

[alwyn]

I would be very grateful if I could pick the brains of riders and fellow organisers here.

I'm formulating my business plan and budget for LEL for 2025, and I face a significant challenge with costs. About 50% of my event costs relate to running controls, and prices in the three components of running controls - food, fuel and staff - have rocketed and continue to rise. I have several options to control this.

- I can increase the size of the event to bring in more revenue. This is high risk as I'm not sure whether demand for the event has plateaued or not. It also places a significant burden on controls, and although I can mitigate that by spreading the field out further, those extra riders still need to be fed and looked after.
- I can decrease the amount of paid staff. We have about 150 paid staff working at the event, mostly cooking and the heavy-duty cleaning. The only part of this I can safely hand over to volunteers is cleaning, and unsurprisingly volunteers do not want to spend long periods behind the scenes doing dirty work.
- I can cut back on catering. Rider feedback is quite clear on this though - they would like to see a better food offer, and reading through the feedback over the years one point jumps out. If the food at a control is low quality or unavailable, riders will hate every other aspect of the event. If they eat a good meal, they are generally happy with the event.

So my best option, as I can see it, is to raise the ticket price. The last time I did this was in 2017, in order to pay for better catering and cleaning support so volunteers could focus on looking after riders. I think I am going to have to raise the ticket price by another £90 compared to 2021/2 in order to meet inflation and to bring the quality of catering up to the standard of Moffat and Barnard Castle.

Can I ask your opinions on the challenge I face and the prospect of a price rise?

(Sorry to ask now as everyone is focussed on PBP, but I need to make my plans now rather than in the Autumn)

[L CC]

With the caveat that as you know my LEL riding days are passed

• We're currently looking at a 20% increase year-on-year for consumer food
• Wage rise requests are 10%
• The more expensive it is, the less tolerant riders are of any perceived shortfall in TLC
• For international riders, the entry is still a small proportion of the total cost of adventure

It's a tough call but I think you have lots of leeway to ask for a higher price to maintain the existing service - it's not as if it's profit, it's clearly identifiable additional costs. You can't scale back the event from what's been offered previously as there is such an expectation now you've been running successfully for 3 editions.

I'm not convinced that handing over cleaning is preferable to handing over catering. I'd much rather spend 12 hours chopping onions and grating cheese in a kitchen than half an hour cleaning men's toilets. Especially after the breakfast 'rush'. Most volunteers want to interact with riders and dishing up and clearing tables lets them do that.

[alwyn]

I'm not convinced that handing over cleaning is preferable to handing over catering. I'd much rather spend 12 hours chopping onions and grating cheese in a kitchen than half an hour cleaning men's toilets. Especially after the breakfast 'rush'. Most volunteers want to interact with riders and dishing up and clearing tables lets them do that.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. To be clear, the staff we hire do the bogs and the pots, fill up the dishwashers, mop floors and lug crates around. Generally volunteers dish up food and clear tables and these are surprisingly popular jobs. The idea has always been to pay people to do the stuff that folk don't see. I'm reluctant to hand catering back to volunteers because most people do not know how to run a kitchen safely and that poses too great a risk to riders.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

For international riders flying in from another continent, the brevet entry fee is almost irrelevant. That is submerged within the overall event cost.

For international riders hopping over the Channel, the entry fee is a noticeable higher percentage of the trip cost but many folk will ignore a price increase for a 'once in a lifetime' or a high priority event.

For local riders, the entry fee forms the majority of the event's cost and at least some of the route will be on familiar roads. They will be the most price sensitive.

[alwyn]

For international riders flying in from another continent, the brevet entry fee is almost irrelevant. That is submerged within the overall event cost.

For international riders hopping over the Channel, the entry fee is a noticeable higher percentage of the trip cost but many folk will ignore a price increase for a 'once in a lifetime' or a high priority event.

For local riders, the entry fee forms the majority of the event's cost and at least some of the route will be on familiar roads. They will be the most price sensitive.

This was Roger's analysis too, and I agree with both of you.

[Laid Back Rich]

Hi Alwyn,

Well, jolly glad and mighty relieved that you are going to do the next one, I thought you'd be long settled into a well-deserved retirement from all things AUK by 2025, and who would dare step forward to try and fill your shoes?

We all know everyone's costs are skyrocketing and UK inflation is higher than almost everywhere else. So I think a £90 fee increase is totally justified. I'd not want to see any skimping on event quality, especially food, and you are right to use professional caterers and cleaners. Give the nice rider-facing jobs to the volunteers.

In summary, more of the same please - if it ain't broke, don't fix it!
cheers
LBR

[LittleWheelsandBig]

For international riders flying in from another continent, the brevet entry fee is almost irrelevant. That is submerged within the overall event cost.

For international riders hopping over the Channel, the entry fee is a noticeable higher percentage of the trip cost but many folk will ignore a price increase for a 'once in a lifetime' or a high priority event.

For local riders, the entry fee forms the majority of the event's cost and at least some of the route will be on familiar roads. They will be the most price sensitive.

This was Roger's analysis too, and I agree with both of you.

Repeat trade is where you might get a noticeable reduction. Considering doing something for the first or only time is quite different to weighing up the marginal benefit of 'another LEL'.

[The Family Cyclist]

One thing I may suggest is be open and clear about why prices have gone up. You'd hope people would realise that LEL isn't immune from cost of living/inflation but spelling it out may be a good idea or pointing out what it would cost without the volunteers

[John Stonebridge]

I think that most folk (to the extent that they have thought about it) would expect an increase of at least 20% from 2021 so the addition of £90 is not far away.

Reasonable people will understand the underlying message of “were sorry the price has gone up but we don’t think its right to compromise on quality for AUKs flagship event”. 

A scenario where significant number of riders won’t enter the event if the entry fee goes up strikes me as unlikely. 

The number of repeat local riders might tail off so having a handle on the numbers who have ridden say 2+ LELs and are current AUK members might be handy.  I’d wager that newbies would more than offset any possible such reduction.   

Others will moan about it but will still enter.

Others (ctd) will moan about it without ever having had any intention of entering

[alwyn]

The number of repeat local riders might tail off so having a handle on the numbers who have ridden say 2+ LELs and are current AUK members might be handy.  I’d wager that newbies would more than offset any possible such reduction. 

Repeat trade is where you might get a noticeable reduction. Considering doing something for the first or only time is quite different to weighing up the marginal benefit of 'another LEL'.

I think this is an important point. The majority of riders only do it once but the repeat entrants add a unique enthusiasm that inspires other riders to enter. The '25 edition is likely to have about 500km of new roads and very different feel. It will be very much a '13 vibe, easily the best route since I've been involved, thanks to Andy and Tom taking charge of matters. I'm hoping that that will entice a few to ride it again. We're augmenting the route with a large number of cafes that will be open especially for the event, which will add to the very faint stirrings of PBP-style support happening along the route. Hopefully with that and better food, riders will put their trust in us that it's worth a second or third go.

[alwyn]

One thing I may suggest is be open and clear about why prices have gone up. You'd hope people would realise that LEL isn't immune from cost of living/inflation but spelling it out may be a good idea or pointing out what it would cost without the volunteers

It would be thousands without volunteers. About 15% of our planned costs are volunteer expenses but they make the event shine. Some of the price rise will go on providing more for them, in particular a more varied diet with more treats. Again, the feedback was clear - the controls that spent the most on treating and looking after volunteers got the best feedback from volunteers.

And you simply cannot replace volunteers with paid staff and bill the difference. That creates an entirely different vibe to the event and would lose some of the magic.

But yes, I agree with your point. It's best to square with people who want to enter.

[Peter]

I think the increase would be perfectly justified.  I know almost everybody has been hard hit, except for lenders, and that isn't going to change much over the next few years.  And (having volunteered on 3 now) I reckon LEL's business model is closest to the hospitality sector - and half of that's had to close.  Good luck, Alwyn.

[alwyn]

I think the increase would be perfectly justified.  I know almost everybody has been hard hit, except for lenders, and that isn't going to change much over the next few years.  And (having volunteered on 3 now) I reckon LEL's business model is closest to the hospitality sector - and half of that's had to close.  Good luck, Alwyn.

I agree with your reckoning. It's essentially a massive catering operation, with a smaller logistics operation on the side.

[Redlight]

Having been both a rider and a volunteer twice, I'd echo the comments above. One of the key elements post-2009 has been the thought given to the catering and having enough volunteers at each control to make the riders feel looked after. All the associated costs, even if we're only talking about volunteers' travel expenses, will have risen substantially since last July already and will go up more by 2025, but that will be the same for any comparable event. I don't think there is anything to be gained by sacrificing the quality of the experience for the sake of saving a few percentage points on the cost.

Perhaps you could make some other aspects, such as the bag drop, optional at extra cost, but I'd be surprised if many people opted to ride the whole event completely self-supported*. You could raise a bit more from those who want to bring motorhomes in to the controls but, as we see with PBP, that could well result in people parking up in other places and, possibly, pissing off the locals along the route.

LEL is a blue riband event; it costs what it costs.

*yes, I know some people, me included, have done PBP with just a saddlebag.

[alwyn]

*yes, I know some people, me included, have done PBP with just a saddlebag.

Thanks RL.

It was French riders who revolted last time I jacked the price up, and they're never really returned in anything like the same numbers. On the French forum were repeated accounts of people who claimed to ride PBP spending but a few euros on bread and cheese here and there as they rode. And much like the legend of the AUK who sleeps soundly in ditches and bus shelters, I found the accounts both somewhat implausible and slightly self-serving. It's not a model that appeals to them and I suspect the UK's rep for wet weather (fair) and bad food (less fair) puts them off risking that much cash.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I know a few 'dirtbag' French randonneurs who do the bikepacking thing and a number of North American randonneurs who take the same approach - more 'hair shirt' than required, running on the 'smell of an oily rag' and characterising supported brevets as cheating. I think there is a fair overlap between the dirtbag group and those who would target a long foreign brevet with some mythmaking like LEL. It doesn't surprise me that an increased entry fee would be enough to put that group off entering, particularly for a second time.

The main thing is that most people don't ride a long brevet more than once. Look at the list of PBP recidivists and despite some folk completing up to 12xPBP, the percentage of riders finishing 2 or more PBPs is a small fraction (1/4?) of the numbers who have ridden PBP at all.
https://www.randonneurs.bc.ca/pbp/recidivistes/main.html

[Neil C]

I have just made my payment for PBP. The entry fee is up 40% since 2019 (135€ to 190€). The cost of the meal before the start is up 30% (13€ to 17€).

Another £100 on the LEL entry fee would seem to be entirely acceptable.

[Zed43]

90 pound increase makes it £ 450 or roughly € 550

€ 200 for the event itself (compare: PBP)
€ 350 for five days of food and lodging ie € 70 a day

Not unreasonable IMO (esp. given the amount of food a randonneur devours  )

Total cost for me will be around € 1000 / £ 800 for the ferry to/from Harwich and lodging before/after the event. The price increase may be the straw that breaks the piggy bank for some, but I doubt it will be a factor for foreign riders.

2025 will be my 3rd LEL; looking forward to the new route, hope it will be a bit more velomobile friendly than the 2022 edition 

[Lightning Phil]

I last paid in 2013, joining you and Roger in central team in 2017, and using my free entry last year.  After messing up riding in the heat last year, I was kind of, maybe I should leave it, retire from this game.   But 500km of new roads, and LEL 13 vibe; would be just the thing to get me back out to try again.

I think the all in pricing model of LEL works great, and does reduce queuing and remove money handling concerns and admin at controls.  The idea of bag drops being an optional purchase does have merit though, I feel.   But that optional purchase should still be something done up front, like purchasing a jersey or arm warmers etc. 

Most of our longer events in the UK are x rated.  It’s nice not relying on garages during LEL. Sure you’ll get moaning, but it’s really nice to get the TLC treatment on a flagship event, and riders will be prepared to pay for that.

[Von Broad]

It was French riders who revolted last time I jacked the price up, and they're never really returned in anything like the same numbers.

Not exactly related to your question - but I notice the French riders haven't been returning to their own event over the years either - at least that's my interpretation of the steady percentage decline of French riders in PBP over the years.

Back on track....

Things have quietened down a bit now, but working in the building trade what's been extraordinary is the steep increase in the costs of building materials since the pandemic. We won't do into details here as to who's been taking advantage of the situation but one thing is for sure...the customer has been hit hard.
With that in mind one thing you need to factor in [which I'm sure you have!] is the possibility of food costs continuing to rise after you've set the price and people have started paying up. Hopefully things will have settled down a bit as regards inflation [as in it will remain consistently high!], and you can calculate where the land lies when LEL comes around. You don't want to find yourself in a situation where things get really tight because you've been understandably cautious about upsetting people.

It is what it is - a challenging job. It really is no different to a builder quoting for a job - you're constantly at the mercy of price uncertainty and have no way of knowing where things will be in 6 months time. Amusingly enough, I know a couple of builders who have quoted for a job on the basis that the quote will last a few weeks then it will have to be reviewed!!!
Bit difficult to do that on LEL though
Good luck with everything.

[Orbiter]

Would it be possible to reduce the number of controls?

Well, yes, I know it would be possible, but would it be possible and still have an event that people would want to ride?

[alwyn]

2025 will be my 3rd LEL; looking forward to the new route, hope it will be a bit more velomobile friendly than the 2022 edition 

Oh, massively so. We’ve replaced all the tough climbs with really gentle climbs. You’ll love it.

[alwyn]

Would it be possible to reduce the number of controls?

Well, yes, I know it would be possible, but would it be possible and still have an event that people would want to ride?

Possibly. The obvious candidates would be Eskdalemuir, Great Easton, and Hessle. But Esk would just open anyway, and everyone would stop there anyway, so it’s best to plan it properly. Hessle would place a massive burden on Louth on the first night, and Great Easton is in a food desert. We may yet ditch GE anyway because reasons but that would likely shave only £10-£15 off the price.

[alwyn]

Thank you everyone for the really thoughtful answers so far. I appreciate you taking the time hugely.

[Zed43]

2025 will be my 3rd LEL; looking forward to the new route, hope it will be a bit more velomobile friendly than the 2022 edition 

Oh, massively so. We’ve replaced all the tough climbs with telly gentle stuff. You’ll love it.

LOL 

As a novice velomobile rider I've been fine with the climbs (upto 10%) so far, descends can be far more trickier. I would love to ride Yad Moss like in 2017 (esp. on the way back, everlasting gentle descent). The Northbound descent of Harthope Moss in 2022 was scary even on an upright!

And please please leave in Eskdalemuir and Great Easton; they were my favourite controls in both years with Innerleithen close behind. Not just as a control (great volunteers everywhere, not limited to these two), but just very uplifting places.

And as Von Broad suggests, better be safe and increase with say £ 100 than having to run the kitchens on a shoestring. You can always spend the left-over cash on having a secret icecream control 

Looking forward to LEL 2025.