LEL costs and entry price

[Ivo]

- I can increase the size of the event to bring in more revenue. This is high risk as I'm not sure whether demand for the event has plateaued or not. It also places a significant burden on controls, and although I can mitigate that by spreading the field out further, those extra riders still need to be fed and looked after.

I think LEL has hit the plateau. Unless you manage to draw a huge new influx from a new category of riders (possibly the bike packing community), I don't see the amount of riders available for a serious increase.
The situation on the international field is different now from 20 years ago when the big growth started. Then there were hardly any big and well organised rides, now nearly everyone has plenty of choic of long rides near his/her doorstep. This reduces the need for riders to head out for 'simply' doing a 1200+. LEL does have the status to remain a ride of 1000+ participants, but not enough to reach 2000+. Only PBP is well above that.
The increase in climbing comapred with the early years of LEL will scare away a number of candidates.

What could be advertised more is the cheap lodging options at the campsite next door to the start. If you compare that to PBP, LEL lodging before/after the ride is easily 100-150 Euro cheaper. This offsets the higher ride costs.

[Orbiter]

Having ridden both 2017 and 2022, starting from the back, my only real miff was the food offering compared to what riders further ahead seemed to be getting - particularly on the way back.

Having paid the same entry fee, I’d like to be receiving the same offering - undercooked baked potato, or nothing, didn’t really cut it.

At a potential £450ish I would have to think long and hard, assuming my previous experiences would be repeated.

But for me the appeal of LEL is the challenge of the ride, not the semi-glaudax experience where LEL positions itself, so maybe I'm not your typical punter.

I’m not sure what a LEL-13 vibe means, does not mean an easier or tougher event versus, say, last year (or just some biblical rain, apparently)?

But it is what it is, and costs what it costs.

I’m sure you’d still get the numbers in 2025 regardless of the changes/cost, and as always, it will be a great event.

[Peter]

Having paid the same entry fee, I’d like to be receiving the same offering - undercooked baked potato, or nothing, didn’t really cut it.

This, of course, doesn't help.  You even see ride reports which mention that the author had two meals at the same control.  Now, it may be that they asked if there was sufficient food to make that possible and got a positive answer - or they may not.  It must be really difficult to provide enough food without lots of waste if you can't be sure who is going to help themselves to more than their fair share.  I tend to think, "eat your meal - then get something on the road if you need it."

[Moleman76]

I tend to think, "eat your meal - then get something on the road if you need it."

Is there a way to add a meal card function to the brevet card, which would be punched or otherwise permanently marked by food servers? "Sorry, it looks like you've had your meal here already - there are other outlets down the road". 

Perhaps include a few "bonus" meals so that someone who was really hungry at a time when there weren't other open food options, could take in more calories?

The reason for integrating this with the brevet card is "one less thing to keep track of" for the riders.  It could be a separate section of the card from the control stamps.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Rationing food is not the way to maximise rider goodwill.

[Peter]

True.  However, if people are experiencing these shortages, then the price needs to reflect what's actually required to make sure there is enough decent stuff.  But I have to be honest and say I don't have any idea how serious a problem it is, or whether it's more due to, say, a rare less efficient catering team than over-eating.  Having watched riders coming in towards the back of the field I think some of them have enough difficulty lifting a spoon once, never mind twice! 

[quixoticgeek]

Just as a point of reference events like the TCR have an entry fee of 350+ and don't have any TLC of any form.

J

[Flâneur]

Just as a point of reference events like the TCR have an entry fee of 350+ and don't have any TLC of any form.

Indeed, but it and other bikepacking events do have a great deal of social media presence, sponsors, finish parties etc, which play well to their own demographic. (to be clear, I'm not suggesting that as a model for LEL in the slightest)

Regarding price increase, I can see it both ways - having ridden 2022, I appreciate massively all that goes into the event, and excellent innovations such as the marquee dormitory at Brampton must cost. Given all that has happened since the 2022 price was set, a 25%ish increase wouldn't be unexpected. That said, potential new entrants coming to it afresh may find a headline price of £450+ offputting without a fair amount of context.

Given the shorter than usual interval between editions, differentiation from 2022 may help maximise repeat rides. 500k of different roads would help in that regard. Potential 'radical' change for the Scottish sections was mentioned on a previous thread, though that may be difficult if both Moffat and Eskdalemuir are retained as controls? Maybe a greater selection of time options as well a la PBP 80/84/90h - speaking personally, while I'd almost certainly be hors delai @100h, 125h was generous enough to take time pressure out of the equation for most of the route. 110h groups may add a frisson for a chunk of riders?

[quixoticgeek]

Given the shorter than usual interval between editions, differentiation from 2022 may help maximise repeat rides. 500k of different roads would help in that regard. Potential 'radical' change for the Scottish sections was mentioned on a previous thread, though that may be difficult if both Moffat and Eskdalemuir are retained as controls? Maybe a greater selection of time options as well a la PBP 80/84/90h - speaking personally, while I'd almost certainly be hors delai @100h, 125h was generous enough to take time pressure out of the equation for most of the route. 110h groups may add a frisson for a chunk of riders?

I'm watching to see how bad the climbing is gonna be. Unless there's a miracle in the next 24 months, I'm too fat for big climbing.

J

[alwyn]

I think LEL has hit the plateau. Unless you manage to draw a huge new influx from a new category of riders (possibly the bike packing community), I don't see the amount of riders available for a serious increase.
The situation on the international field is different now from 20 years ago when the big growth started. Then there were hardly any big and well organised rides, now nearly everyone has plenty of choic of long rides near his/her doorstep. This reduces the need for riders to head out for 'simply' doing a 1200+. LEL does have the status to remain a ride of 1000+ participants, but not enough to reach 2000+. Only PBP is well above that.

Here’s the weird thing though. Two editions in a row now we have had hundreds of people simply not turn up. In 2017 we even offered every rider £50 just before the event to simply tell us they weren’t coming, and 300 people didn’t reply and failed to turn up. Weird. You’d reply to an email for £50, wouldn’t you?

Both events had a low finish rate too. In 2017 it was the wind that did it, last year it was covid and the heat and hills. The 25 route will be much more mellow - we’re taking all of the drama out of Yorkshire and heading back over Yad Moss. But you cannot guarantee the weather alas.

Entry in 2022 was about the same as 2017, despite the pandemic. So I think you might be right, but your figures are out by 1000.

[alwyn]

Having ridden both 2017 and 2022, starting from the back, my only real miff was the food offering compared to what riders further ahead seemed to be getting - particularly on the way back.

Having paid the same entry fee, I’d like to be receiving the same offering - undercooked baked potato, or nothing, didn’t really cut it.

Really sorry to hear that. It’s a point we all agree on as controllers that this shouldn’t happen. I regret not intervening a couple of times in 2022 in not directing the main catering team to buy their way out of trouble. They felt they could sort it and I deferred to them. My fault though, not theirs, and I will take responsibility for the failure. Sorry.

[Wycombewheeler]

Options

Increase field - extends time volunteers are required for, also increases food and staffing costs (Proportionately to additional time)
Not sure this is viable, you have no guarantee a larger event could be sold out, and getting volunteers to give up more time may be a tough sell.

Increase costs
as mentioned upthread overseas riders (except maybe France/Belgium/Netherlands/Ireland with just a short ferry trip) will not flinch, local riders especially repeat riders will notice more. But 4 years of inflation which is higher now than it was for many many years will make the real terms change seem smaller than the headline 25% change. after all inflation in 2022 alone was 10%

change model
PBP does not include food or beds they charge for each, this could be viable, but maybe caterers will want more certainty

Reduce food provision times/places to reduce staffing costs
potentially in places where food is easily available outside the control there is no need to have an offering 24 hours a day, riders could buy outside easily when places are open, but there may be a time cost to riders and a cost increase so this seems least attractive to riders. Also what is possible for a handful of riders, might not be reasonable for 1000+ riders passing through in a small window.

Overall I think £90 increase is the best option.

[Wycombewheeler]

Here’s the weird thing though. Two editions in a row now we have had hundreds of people simply not turn up. In 2017 we even offered every rider £50 just before the event to simply tell us they weren’t coming, and 300 people didn’t reply and failed to turn up. Weird. You’d reply to an email for £50, wouldn’t you?

good job they didn't, there might have been less food available, while generally it was great there were a couple of places where I felt it was not enough, like I'd arrived after locusts had been through

Both events had a low finish rate too. In 2017 it was the wind that did it, last year it was covid and the heat and hills. The 25 route will be much more mellow - we’re taking all of the drama out of Yorkshire and heading back over Yad Moss. But you cannot guarantee the weather alas.

I think there was the intent to head over Yad Moss last time, but I think it's shame to lose that other section via Stanton St John, crossing that in the daylight was lovely, not so much at night when it was cold. I'd certainly be happy with a route that went each way once.

[vorsprung]

With inflation running at 10%+ probably a £90 increase is not enough

Just to keep the £360 the same value is more like a £120 increase

And the actual real cost / value is good at that price.  Just look up how much a managed bike tour of LeJoG charges

If you want to go London to Ed and back and sleep in hedges / bus shelters / church steps it could work out cheaper

I guess Bristol - Glasgow - Bristol 1600 is a bit like that.  The entry is £16.50 and it starts on June 18th

[Laid Back Rich]

I guess Bristol - Glasgow - Bristol 1600 is a bit like that.  The entry is £16.50 and it starts on June 18th

or London - Lands End - London 1000 July 19 for £15

[Flâneur]

Just look up how much a managed bike tour of LeJoG charges

Other options exist

[hellymedic]

Given the shorter than usual interval between editions, differentiation from 2022 may help maximise repeat rides. 500k of different roads would help in that regard. Potential 'radical' change for the Scottish sections was mentioned on a previous thread, though that may be difficult if both Moffat and Eskdalemuir are retained as controls? Maybe a greater selection of time options as well a la PBP 80/84/90h - speaking personally, while I'd almost certainly be hors delai @100h, 125h was generous enough to take time pressure out of the equation for most of the route. 110h groups may add a frisson for a chunk of riders?

There has to be an end point to a ride.
Extending time limits too much means another day of venue hire, staff hire, volunteer time and controllers' time, which would come at substantial cost, methinks.

[Fidgetbuzz]

With inflation running at 10%+ probably a £90 increase is not enough[/b]

Just to keep the £360 the same value is more like a £120 increase[/b]

Although I am not doing 2025 .. I have had some input to Danial .. and it is my saying the price has to be in line with your suggested £120 that has made him stop , think and start this opinion seeking exercise .. both on here .. and from his key lieutenants .

Simply I am with you .. getting awfully close to £500

[Flâneur]

There has to be an end point to a ride.
Extending time limits too much means another day of venue hire, staff hire, volunteer time and controllers' time, which would come at substantial cost, methinks.

Who mentioned extending time limits? LRM would have something to say about that, I think.

Just saying that there may be some mileage in having something intermediate between LEL 21's small number of 100h riders and everyone else on LRM-mandated 125h. No control would need to be hired or stay open longer than arrangements the last time.

[MikeFromLFE]

I've volunteered twice, never ridden the event (i'm not hard enough).
I suspect my views as a volunteer aren't typical but I'll chuck them out here anyway.

The balance between paid & volunteer duties is about right in my opinion.
You certainly don't want untrained volunteers working with food preparation (and I question food serving as well).
The grottier cleaning tasks might well discourage volunteers from returning - so no matter how variable the contractors are, they are a much better way forward than using volunteer labour.

There was definitely a lot of food waste - which led to lack of food for both riders and for volunteers. There's a fine balance in feeding riders, and there's no easy (or right) way of doing this. Who hasn't felt very hungry during or after a long ride, seen a plate of food and then been unable to eat more than a mouthful? I do wonder if meal vouchers might be one answer, with further visits to the servery chargeable (which adds to the administration burden).
I've whined enough about the food offering to volunteers last time, so I won't rehash my comments, but it's the main reason I won't be volunteering for a full week again.

I know I'm at the trailing edge of the age of volunteers but sleeping on air beds in a dorm no longer cuts it for me. If the volunteer offering is to be improved then this is certainly an area that needs looking at - possibly through advantageous links with local B&Bs or even local cycling clubs.

Volunteer expenses are - in my opinion - over-generous. I feel a low global cap on the amount claimable would be appropriate, with overseas volunteers not being able to claim more than UK based volunteers. If a significant saving in expenses is there to be made (I don't know if it is) then the savings could be fed neatly into improving the overall volunteer experience which feeds into a better rider experience.
Overseas volunteers add a significant amount of 'spice' to the event, and they are extremely welcome, but I can't help feeling they'd be there for the event regardless of the paid expenses.

The provision of mechanics at controls is an excellent resource which helps riders and the (largely) volunteer mechanics enjoy doing. However I have had the impression that some riders (sadly, overseas riders in particular) do take the piss occasionally. Parts are chargeable, but labour is offered for free - I can't help wondering if a fixed fee (say £10) wouldn't be unreasonable for a 'visit to the mechanic' - which if well publicised in advance might encourage riders to ensure their machine is fit for the event. Again - I accept that collecting money from riders adds to the admin and is potentially open to complaints / abuse which might outweigh any financial gain.

Mention has been made of charging for parking motorhomes (etc) at controls. I think this is an area worth exploring further. Yes, there would be a temptation for off-site parking to become a problem, but I feel that this could be managed though expectations, good will, and light-touch policing by the roving marshalls. A fee for parking and a separate charge for 'meal tickets' might be an attractive and profitable way forward.

[abc123]

In answer to the original question and the three options, I would say the inevitable answer is to raise the ticket cost. I think you have to decide what is special about LEL and calculate an entry fee that realistically covers the cost of delivering that experience, rather than starting with a price and trying to change LEL to meet that constraint.
My simplistic Goldilocks analysis is that paying £360 was a no-brainer for what was provided, if LEL cost £1000 I would be passing, but if the 2025 cost was nearer £500 I would probably think a bit more carefully but still conclude it was a good deal, considering how costs have risen (and will continue to rise). I just checked Ride Across Britain, and even allowing for the fact it is a nine day event, it is currently an eye watering £1850, or £2450 if you don't want to sleep in a tent! Even the Pan Celtic is £445, and you don't actually seem to get much that is practically useful included in that fee.

I think LEL (and Audax generally) is still gaining new social media exposure and reaching new people outside the traditional Audax community, so I would guess that the entry could still grow a bit (perhaps closer to 2000?). However, I agree with some of the other comments that there is an increasingly crowded market for ultra distance rides, and LEL is unlikely to "poach" huge numbers of people from these other events. For example, I think RAB has a particular clientele because of its strong corporate links and subsidised fund raising model. A lot of people will be entering in work backed company teams and raising sponsorship for specific charities, and the event confers specific kudos in that sphere. You won't get lots of RAB entrants opting for LEL instead because it is cheaper. I think many of the people who participate in events like the Pan Celtic/TCR are a bit more "indie" and would perceive LEL as old school and more "roadie" in character (although these are generalisations and a fair number of people do straddle both types of events).

I assume it would be difficult to tweak the catering to significantly save costs, and I can't imagine that it would be possible to provide all options at all times without huge overstocking and consequent waste. Riding in the sub 100 hour group, I can think of one control where I found the options were a bit limited one morning, but it wasn't a problem and I still got a good enough feed to keep me turning the pedals. I also don't really think there are huge numbers of people greedily hoovering up extra dinners that they don't need, and running a meal ticket system would just be another administrative headache for the volunteer force.

I don't think encouraging support vehicles is a good idea. Adding sufficient cars and motorhomes to significantly help the budget would introduce problems with parking, traffic management and safety when entering and leaving controls, and en-route. I had a support vehicle pass me in the small hours on a narrow road approaching the Moorfoots last year; I know they weren't supposed to be on the course, but people will do it, and you won't be able to police them. I think being self supported (outside controls) is an important part of LEL and should remain the default for most riders.

Perhaps one area where you could raise more revenue would be upselling the spot tracker hire. Personally, I have no desire whatsoever to be tracked while I'm out for a bike ride, but I know lots of people love dot watching and being dot watched, so there is probably scope to charge a bit more and grow that as an optional extra? There is a downside that spot tracking encourages the perception of LEL as an "Audax race", which is not ideal.

I don't yet know if I will enter again in 2025, but my experience of 2022 was overwhelmingly positive and I would just say thank you again for all the hard work of you and your volunteers. I'm interested to see the new route, but I really hope it has not been flattened too much. I thought Yorkshire and the Pennines were great, and a ride like LEL needs a proper bit of climbing somewhere, rather than just distance, in order to give it flavour!

[vorsprung]

The provision of mechanics at controls is an excellent resource which helps riders and the (largely) volunteer mechanics enjoy doing. However I have had the impression that some riders (sadly, overseas riders in particular) do take the piss occasionally. Parts are chargeable, but l...

I totally disagree for this reason.  I fixed the 20th wheel of the day /or it might have been a headset / luggage attachment / mudguard / it all blurs into one and a US person said "it's amazing how you don't charge anything".  I said but we are charging a lot.  "How so?".  Well, if I come to your country on an event then I'd expect the bike to get fixed on a similar arrangement so in fact it is incredibly expensive.

BTW my experience was that there was no extra call on our services from people from abroad vs. home AUK people.  The most call on our services was from people with overused worn out bikes

[Dai P]

I completed in 2013, DNF in 17 and volunteered last year.  LEL is great value.  I would much prefer £100 uplift in price to any other option.  Everyone knows costs have gone up considerably and therefore the price needs to reflect this.  As a rider the quality of the controls is what makes it special and makes it work.  Anything to enhance the control experience would be good.  I volunteered last year partly because the route looked very tough for me, especially the Yorkshire section.  Therefore if this is amended then I would probably ride again (would mean you would lose one volunteer!)

As a volunteer I loved the experience, I was at Brampton the whole week and was very happy to sleep in control, it was part of the immersive experience and gave a strong bond with the riders.  Some controls did seem to run out of food, not sure why and if controllers were given funds to purchase more if needed.

As for extras, mechanics, or support vehicles or even paying for extra food, I think we should be very careful with this as it adds a burden and responsibility on control for what I suspect is little gain.  It could also piss off or confuse some riders.

Volunteer expenses is an interesting one, how many claim?  And should there be a maximum amount for overseas and UK vols?  One of the highlights for me was a couple of overseas volunteers singing happy birthday to me in German….. don’t want to lose that magic.

It is a fantastic event and so well organised, and if I don’t ride the next one (getting on a bit!) I will definitely volunteer.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I prefer catering to petrol station sandwiches.  Having volunteered (running catering in Barnard Castle in 2013 and St Ives in 2017), I understand just how much goes into the event, and so am willing to pay the increase.  I rode LEL in 2009 but have never ridden it in the Alwyn era, as the one week shift in 2022 with an important wedding anniversary.  So perhaps I am not the best test case, as it will be in my plans for 2025. 

I think the pains to consider the costs and the response of riders to a cost increase is a consideration that will make a cost increase understandable.  Especially in the light of UK inflation over the last couple of years.

[quixoticgeek]

Re foreign riders, don't forget the value of the pound has fluctuated, so while it may cost more in pounds for the locals, for those paying in dollars (of all kinds), or euros, may not see such a big jump.

J