LEL costs and entry price

[FifeingEejit]

With inflation running at 10%+ probably a £90 increase is not enough[/b]

Just to keep the £360 the same value is more like a £120 increase[/b]

Although I am not doing 2025 .. I have had some input to Danial .. and it is my saying the price has to be in line with your suggested £120 that has made him stop , think and start this opinion seeking exercise .. both on here .. and from his key lieutenants .

Simply I am with you .. getting awfully close to £500[/size]

But £500 quid in 2022 is not the same as £500 in 2024
It's the "I remember when Fredos were 10p" argument
Eventually £500 will be needed to buy a penny sweet. (I'd expect a revaluation by then TBH)

The real problem is price disparity between countries getting bigger due to differing inflation and exchange rates.
If the UK is seen as a more expensive place to go, the attractiveness to forin riders reduces.

Note: QG beat me to that by quite some margin I hadn't got to reading her post before I posted it

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

But £500 quid in 2022 is not the same as £500 in 2024
It's the "I remember when Fredos were 10p" argument
Eventually £500 will be needed to buy a penny sweet. (I'd expect a revaluation by then TBH)

Which might put off some who have ridden it several times - and might make the comparison with what it used to cost - and those tackling it for the first or second time and will not have the same benchmark.  IIRC it was £90 in 2009, but can't be sure.

[R_nger]

Another data point…

I’m a native, have participated in the last 3 LELs and would happily pay the extra to maintain the control standards. Minor issues aside, I’ve had a blast each time and hope I might actually finish if I keep giving it a go. Chapeau to Danial and the team

[alwyn]

Thanks everyone for your taking the time to offer your thoughts.

I've pretty much decided to go for quality over price. Especially with the team we have in place for the next event, the route we have planned, and the facilities and extras we've got lined up.

See you in Rambouillet for a first peek at the route.

[alwyn]

Here's a thought - can I run this by the readership as a thought experiment?

The first start times of the event are hugely popular - nearly everyone likes an earlier start. Similarly the final times are less popular.

What if I were to attach a significant premium to the earliest start times, say £100, and use that to offer cheaper start times, say £100 less, at the very end of the event?

[quixoticgeek]

Here's a thought - can I run this by the readership as a thought experiment?

The first start times of the event are hugely popular - nearly everyone likes an earlier start. Similarly the final times are less popular.

What if I were to attach a significant premium to the earliest start times, say £100, and use that to offer cheaper start times, say £100 less, at the very end of the event?

As above, those coming from outside the UK, 100 quid on the trip is not going to make much difference in total costs.

Those for who that 100 quid would make a major difference are going to probably not be able to ride anyway.

Better to make it the same for everyone, there's already a 2 tear system for getting a place (AUK Member vs not), don't make it worse.

J

[howdee]

What if I were to attach a significant premium to the earliest start times, say £100, and use that to offer cheaper start times, say £100 less, at the very end of the event?

Airline model. Next - charge for meals at each individual control, charge for a blow-up bed (charged per hour). Don't forget the extra fee if you want a blanket with that.

In jest of course but adds to the complexity of running the event and may create animosity if it transpires that later starters have not had access to the same food options as the earlier 'premium' starters.

[The Bonk]

How many fully paid DNS were there on the last edition?

[Zed43]

Are we talking about a £ 600 fee for early (how early?) £ 500 "regular" and £ 400 "late" start?

For starters (ha!) it would lead to some grumbling by people who pay a £100 premium compared to those who start 15 minutes later.

I don't think I'm in favour.

[Lightning Phil]

Here's a thought - can I run this by the readership as a thought experiment?

The first start times of the event are hugely popular - nearly everyone likes an earlier start. Similarly the final times are less popular.

What if I were to attach a significant premium to the earliest start times, say £100, and use that to offer cheaper start times, say £100 less, at the very end of the event?

Is it not the case that all the start slots pretty much get filled?  Certainly in 2017 that was the case, subject to the on the day (didn’t tell us) DNS we experienced.  Thus you’re not going to see a larger redistribution to later slots. It’ll just be that more riders will likely opt for them, rather than you having to redistribute them after riders have selected their preferences, and you’ve locked it.

If early slots are still oversubscribed, will you give £100 back to those who get moved to later slots? Is the aim to reduce the price hike for x number of riders? If so, how many riders will likely see the extra £100 on top of any other price hike? Plus if someone gets reallocated to a later start time would they get £100 back? 

Plus will those who’ve paid more have a sense of entitlement during the event? Bit like early boarders on planes think they can fill up the overhead lockers.

[alwyn]

Are we talking about a £ 600 fee for early (how early?) £ 500 "regular" and £ 400 "late" start?

For starters (ha!) it would lead to some grumbling by people who pay a £100 premium compared to those who start 15 minutes later.

I don't think I'm in favour.

Yes, pretty much. The idea being those who want an early start would subsidise those wanting a cheaper entry. It would be by choice only, ie a different allocation. I wouldn't force anyone into a slot they didn't want.

Must stress I'm just sounding out an idea here.

[Can’t swim won’t tri]

Here's a thought - can I run this by the readership as a thought experiment?

The first start times of the event are hugely popular - nearly everyone likes an earlier start. Similarly the final times are less popular.

What if I were to attach a significant premium to the earliest start times, say £100, and use that to offer cheaper start times, say £100 less, at the very end of the event?

I would happily pay to fix the start time I want - which wouldn’t be 5/6am, but was a mildly competitive slot. 

I thought it was an amazing event and incredible value, largely because of the army of volunteers.

HOWEVER… The perspective of “paid staff” vs “volunteer” activities seems extremely rosy (frankly, unrealistic). My wife and kids volunteered for a whole week.  They scrubbed a lot of pots, mopped acres of floors and the volunteers cleaned countless bathrooms. If you’re going to imply that part of the cost is so that volunteers don’t have to do such tasks, it might be worth ensuring they really don’t…

[Zed43]

I would happily pay to fix the start time I want - which wouldn’t be 5/6am, but was a mildly competitive slot. 

This would be my suggestion if you want to "milk" the people who want to have a particular slot.

Registration as before, a "priority" for Audax UK members / LRM riders / people who prepaid and after say two weeks open for everyone.

Then, when registering, you get to to see the available timeslots and how many have registered so far in each slot. With the big disclaimer that if a slot is over-allocated there will be a "lottery" and you may end up in a completely different slot. As before.

The new feature would be that at this point, and this point only, you get the option to buy "insurance" that will guarantee your chosen timeslot.

A timeslot that is fully filled with "insured" riders should be shown as such and not selectable.
Changing to a different timeslot at a later time should move the insurance as well.
It should not be possible to buy insurance later ("oh gosh, my slot is popular" -> tough luck, you're in for the lottery).
It would be a choice to display the number of  "insured" riders in each slot or not; I don't know what would maximise profits 
Price of insurance? £25? £50?

[dod]

I thought it was an amazing event and incredible value, largely because of the army of volunteers.

HOWEVER… The perspective of “paid staff” vs “volunteer” activities seems extremely rosy (frankly, unrealistic). My wife and kids volunteered for a whole week.  They scrubbed a lot of pots, mopped acres of floors and the volunteers cleaned countless bathrooms. If you’re going to imply that part of the cost is so that volunteers don’t have to do such tasks, it might be worth ensuring they really don’t…

Having some knowledge of the situation and the (frankly brilliant) volunteers referred to here, I'll point out that our control was let down by the cleaners planned for the final 24 hours and the volunteer team stepped up to do a superb job to cover for this. It won't happen in 2025. I'm also not sure that we can claim to entirely eliminate the less pleasant jobs for volunteers, particularly during the quieter periods it would surely make sense for some volunteer cleaning instead of hiring cleaners to be on standby for hours on end.

[Peter]

Frankly, in a civilized world, nobody should have to clean a toilet after somebody else has used it.  If you can't use a toilet brush, you're certainly not safe to climb back on your bike.  If you WON'T use one, know you are despised!

[R_nger]

I’m not a big fan of the tiered pricing model - I would like an early slot (to avoid that unpleasant ride out of London in Sunday traffic) and would probably splash the cash, but I don’t feel like I deserve it more than anyone else - so, ballot every time is my vote.

[abc123]

Presumably the premium pricing would also have to be applied to the 100 hour time limit group? If so, I assume all 100 hour entries would be early starts and premium priced, because there would be little point in entering the 100 hour time limit and opting for a cheaper late start (rather than just picking a cheaper 125 hour start).
The principal reason I opted for the 100 hour limit in 2022 was because it guaranteed me a fixed, early start, rather than gambling on the ballot. I assumed the trade off for getting that early start was that I was under a bit more pressure to finish in time. I'm not sure if I would be prepared to pay extra for an early start if I was to enter again.
As suggested above, I think there is some risk to the ethos of the event in introducing the concept of a premium feature for people who are prepared to pay more. I think there would inevitably be more admin overhead to administer the system, so the key question would be the market for such an option, and where there are enough customers to make it financially worthwhile.

[nextSibling]

The '25 edition is likely to have about 500km of new roads and very different feel. It will be very much a '13 vibe, easily the best route since I've been involved, thanks to Andy and Tom taking charge of matters. I'm hoping that that will entice a few to ride it again. We're augmenting the route with a large number of cafes that will be open especially for the event, which will add to the very faint stirrings of PBP-style support happening along the route.

I'm only a single data point, but as a rider from '13 this sounds great and you might have just persuaded me to have another go in 25.

[nextSibling]

Re foreign riders, don't forget the value of the pound has fluctuated, so while it may cost more in pounds for the locals, for those paying in dollars (of all kinds), or euros, may not see such a big jump.

J

Good point. As a US person, the I can buy around 15% more pounds for my dollars than in 2013. Relative inflation complicates matters but nevertheless trips to the UK remain good value at the moment and that's not going to change much in the next couple of years.

Bottom line is I don't think an LEL price rise to around 500 pounds is likely to dissuade many from here who might have otherwise considered it.

[alwyn]

HOWEVER… The perspective of “paid staff” vs “volunteer” activities seems extremely rosy (frankly, unrealistic). My wife and kids volunteered for a whole week.  They scrubbed a lot of pots, mopped acres of floors and the volunteers cleaned countless bathrooms. If you’re going to imply that part of the cost is so that volunteers don’t have to do such tasks, it might be worth ensuring they really don’t…

Hmmm, this shouldn't have happened, though we did have cleaners fail to materialise for one control. Can you PM me so I can get some more information about this please? Getting this right is crucial to the wellbeing of the event.

[alwyn]

Presumably the premium pricing would also have to be applied to the 100 hour time limit group? If so, I assume all 100 hour entries would be early starts and premium priced, because there would be little point in entering the 100 hour time limit and opting for a cheaper late start (rather than just picking a cheaper 125 hour start).

There probably won’t be a 100 hour group in 2025. Most of the riders in this group have been great, and in Anco we’ve had a first finisher who encapsulated our values totally. But we have had enough instances of entitled and reckless behaviour for me to put a stop to it.

[Orbiter]

As one who likes to start from the back, I'd be delighted if those ahead subsidise my entry.

But this seems like a complicated and risky model.

If you wish to constrain cost to the entrant, I can't see how you can do that without reducing the offering in some way.

But it looks like you've already (pretty much) decided to go for "quality over price".

Maybe you could have a two-tier LEL - a bells-and-whistles and a bare-bones, a premium and an economy (I haven't thought how you would differentiate the two).

Cost of entry will already be an inhibiter to those wanting to enter (and capable of completing) the event, but unable to justify the cost.

Whatever your model, I assume you'd need that decided by the time you do the early entry ballot?

[alfapete]

But it looks like you've already (pretty much) decided to go for "quality over price".

Maybe you could have a two-tier LEL - a bells-and-whistles and a bare-bones, a premium and an economy (I haven't thought how you would differentiate the two).

Now there's a thought! Like Liam did with London Wales London. Some AUK stalwarts would probably like a stripped back version with no or minimal manned controls, just collect a receipt.

However, whilst it might succesfully increase the number of available places the charge for each event would have to be carefully considered to ensure it increases, rather than decreases income. It's solving a slightly different problem from the one alwyn asked about in the first place. And Liam might want a cut

[vorsprung]

Last time I deliberately started at the back

TBH it was a bit shit.  If I caught people up they were moaning about how they weren't going well.  There were less groups to ride with.  If I met friends at controls then they were always leaving as I was arriving.  I was hoping to ride through the first night and so get "ahead" of people that slept early.  But it doesn't work like that really

Next time - and I think I will have another go - will start early

[vorsprung]

There probably won’t be a 100 hour group in 2025. Most of the riders in this group have been great, and in Anco we’ve had a first finisher who encapsulated our values totally. But we have had enough instances of entitled and reckless behaviour for me to put a stop to it.

Oh dear.  I guess that the infrastructure to stop people riding if they are acting badly just doesn't exist.  Basically, LEL isn't a race