Alfine 11 speed on a tandem?

[Tim Hall]

Having bust the teeth on my third Sachs 3 x7 on the Pino tandem, I'm finally getting to grips with Sram's "not recommended for tandem use" statement.  When I last broke it I toyed with the idea of putting a Rohloff in there, but was put off by the cost and repaired it using a defunct hub as a source of spares.

Since then Shimano have brought out their 11 speed Alfine, which is much less expensive. Technical data seems to be a bit limited - it doesn't readily appear on the Shimano tech support website for example.

Can it be used on a tandem?  Does it needa reaction arm, or is it all in the anti rotation washer (like a Nexus 8 speed)? 

And has availability improved? I know Simon posted pics of two different ones a few weeks back. Does this mean even more exist?

[Wowbagger]

I think you need one of these so that you can tell me how you get on.

[robbo6]

It has helical teeth so should be a bit stronger-AEBE. I can't see an arm on any photos, and Wiggle has some in stock. If I was starting from scratch I would be very tempted by the Alfine instead of the Rohloff I did get.

[interzen]

Can it be used on a tandem?  Does it needa reaction arm, or is it all in the anti rotation washer (like a Nexus 8 speed)? 

And has availability improved? I know Simon posted pics of two different ones a few weeks back. Does this mean even more exist?

The Alfine-11 uses anti-rotation washers, just like the 8-speed. They're pretty beefy things, so should stand up to tandem use OK, just make sure you get the right ones for whatever dropouts you have.

As for availability, they do seem to be more 'readily' available now - the one that I ordered for myself turned up at the end of last month, whereas the guy who runs my LBS managed to get extremely lucky and score one in October (his has a silver hub shell, mine is black - both have the same internals)

Apparently the 11-speed is rated for off-road use like the 'red band' Nexus/Alfine 8-speed hubs, but I've seen nothing about using them with tandems. Technical details are a bit thin on the ground other than that the recommended minimum chainring/cog ratio is 1.9 (said he, who'll be running 36/20 )

I can't think of any *technical* reason why you couldn't put an Alfine-11 on the back of the tandem - the only potential showstoppers would be the price (hub+control gear will set you back around £500, plus the cost of a wheelbuild) and the fact that if the hub does self-destruct then you'll probably find that it won't be covered by the warranty or somesuch.

If you do it, pictures are mandatory

[border-rider]

If it has a torque limit (1.9 ratio) then wouldn't that be an issue for a tandem ?

[tom_e]

If it has a torque limit (1.9 ratio) then wouldn't that be an issue for a tandem ?

I would guess so - but was also wondering how the torque peaks on a Pino work anyway.  Does it have something like a conventional timing chain?  If so, can you shift the riders 90deg out of phase without suffering the same effects as a conventional tandem?

[Tim]

I would guess so - but was also wondering how the torque peaks on a Pino work anyway.  Does it have something like a conventional timing chain?  If so, can you shift the riders 90deg out of phase without suffering the same effects as a conventional tandem?

There is a freewheel between stoker and captain (who has the drive to the rear wheel). So the captain and stoker may or may not be synchronised at any given time. This does also men you can adapt the relative gear between the captain and stoker.

Of course some crews will remove the freewheel and use a fixed timing chain in the manner of a conventional tandem.

[Panoramix]

On a tandem you will double the torque assuming that the 2 riders work as efficiently as on a single. In real life it is probably 80% extra which is still a lot.

[Tim Hall]

Right. I've spoken with Darth Ian at Future Cycles, but he didn't know.  I've looked on the Shimano webste but that had trouble even admitting the thing existed.

The Madison website threw up its hands in electronic horror at the search string "Alfine 11 speed".

So I've emailed them.

And in the intervening meanwhilst, I've spotted that Pete Bird sells a Landescape Alfine tandem, with again very little detail. And there's a German store selling an MTB Tandem with an 11 speed Alfine.

It's looking possible.

[interzen]

Right. I've spoken with Darth Ian at Future Cycles, but he didn't know.  I've looked on the Shimano webste but that had trouble even admitting the thing existed.

The Madison website threw up its hands in electronic horror at the search string "Alfine 11 speed".

So I've emailed them.

And in the intervening meanwhilst, I've spotted that Pete Bird sells a Landescape Alfine tandem, with again very little detail. And there's a German store selling an MTB Tandem with an 11 speed Alfine.

It's looking possible.

A further data point, which may or may not be relevant, is that a certain Mr.Eland of Velo Vision fame has an old Nexus 4-speed hub on his 'pub' tandem, which I know gets a fair bit of use and abuse. My experience is that Shimano tend to be fairly conservative with regards to torque limitations and such. I still reckon its doable, mind, and if the 11-speed wasn't feasibe for any reason then I'd have little hesitation in putting one of the 'red band' 8-speeds on a tandem if my experience using them off-road is any indication (they're damn near bombproof)

Will be interested to see what sort of a response, if any, you get from Madison.

[Paulson]

Well is it's any help, Circe, who made my tandem, fit the 8 speed alfine as std, and also rohloff as an option.  I spoke to the chap who runs the company, Richard, and he mentioned that they were going to start using the alfine 11 speed when available.  I would therefore say a cautious YES to tandem use!!!!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Small wheels are more kindly to hub gears than big wheels.

[Tim Hall]

Small wheels are more kindly to hub gears than big wheels.

That's handy - the Pino has one small wheel and one big...

In other news, tumbleweed blows across the screen as we wait for an answer from Madison.

Hase, the Pino manufacturers, say they haven't used one before, so can't comment.

Pete Bird says, umm, perhaps maybe.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Have you considered SA's hybrid derailleur/ hub gears? SA apparently are happy with as low as a 22t chainring on a solo. That suggests it might be able to cope with tandem loads.

[TimO]

Things like hybrid derailleur/hub gearing always seem a bit daft, insofar as they introduce the complexity of both designs.  I suppose there's some justification if you need an extreme range of gears, or can't use a front changer for some reason (which of course may be an argument on a Tandem).

I rather like the look of Wows Phil Woods Rohloff, which presumably makes an expensive hub gear into an insanely expensive hub gear?

[Tim Hall]

Have you considered SA's hybrid derailleur/ hub gears? SA apparently are happy with as low as a 22t chainring on a solo. That suggests it might be able to cope with tandem loads.

Ah! Hadn't seen that. It's something to consider for the future, if the Alfine can't be used. As it is, I've just this moment won an auction for a NOS Sram 3 x 7 on Ebay. I'll use that for next week's Tandem Club ride, organised by that nice Mr. Juden, so I can pick his brains about my long term options then. 

[thing1]

I think you need one of these so that you can tell me how you get on.

Oh. My. God.
I just spent the last 2 months deliberating with Emma how Rohloff should move into licensing their gear-mechanism to OEM hub shell manufacturers.

I will email them and find out exactly how much the 48 hole custom hub is going to set us back. 

[georgio8]

Have you made any progress on this?

I've been considering fitting an Alfine 11 on our Moulton APB-based tandem (www.coulouris.net/biking/moultons/APBtandem/). But I'm not sure because I don't know enough about its strength and durability. We're not particularly strong, but we broke the freewheel carrier on a Shimano Deore MTB hub, which I think proves we need a stronger than normal transmission (we currently have a Halo SupaDrive rear hub which is intended for MTB competition use and has stood up well).

[thing1]

Have you made any progress on this?

progress with the phil wood hub?

I got an email back from them saying they would be having a meeting to decide on product plans (pricing, dates, whether it would go into production or not) but they never got back again. I'm guessing the blog was purely a tool for gauging interest, not a serious invite for custom.

Separately, I spoke to Mr T of Bridgwater, and he wasn't interested in it.


Welcome to yacf, by the way! That's a fascinating looking tandem project, and a great web page write up.

[Tim Hall]

Have you made any progress on this?

I've been considering fitting an Alfine 11 on our Moulton APB-based tandem (www.coulouris.net/biking/moultons/APBtandem/). But I'm not sure because I don't know enough about its strength and durability. We're not particularly strong, but we broke the freewheel carrier on a Shimano Deore MTB hub, which I think proves we need a stronger than normal transmission (we currently have a Halo SupaDrive rear hub which is intended for MTB competition use and has stood up well).

Not much. Real Life has got a bit in the way, and the current replacement hub seems to be OK so far. It's a matter of time before it packs up though.

I'm looking at perhaps using the Sturmey Archer version of the Sram 3 x 7 next time round, as it will cabling should be similar.  I did have a chat with Darth Ian at Future Cycles who reckoned that the 11 speed Alfine had a similar top and bottom end to the 8 speed, just with more gears in between. I haven't looked into this yet.  I've heard nothing from Shimano in response to my original query.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The 8 speed hub has just over 300% range and the 11 speed hub has just over 400% range, so a noticeable difference.