Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Doo on 22 October, 2017, 06:53:57 am
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Hi Folks,
Back in the day audax events were cheap as chips. It now appears they are becoming quite pricey. Anyone else noticed this phenomena?!
Doo
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There are 4 audaxes running today. All but one are £5. The one that isn't is £3.
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^well that's great to hear
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http://www.aukweb.net/events/
You can see the prices on the calendar page. £5-6 is the norm. My local rides are £6 and include breakfast. Some organisers strike a deal with venues in order to use them, and include some free food.
There may be a few outliers, but I think they are rare. Sometimes organisers give proceeds to local causes. I dont think many are in it as a get rich quick venture.
The only ride that I think has grown considerably in price is the BCM. IIRC it has gone from £17.50 to £37 over 10 years. It did change slightly when all food was included (IIRC it went to £25). I dont know the history of the finances, and how it was funded 10 years ago, but even so despite the price increase, it still represents very good value in comparison to what is available in the commercial world.
Frankly, any event requires a significant amount of work, and I wouldn't begrudge an organiser having a bit left over by way of remuneration, whether it be the price of a few pints or a decent meal out. I dont think any of them can retire on it.
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I'm not be-grudging organisers anything. I just looked at the snowdrop audax, a great 120k audax which costs £8.50 plus £4 to ece it = over 12 squirrels for a 200k event. I know it's a great ride and includes food but is still a cost. There is a Bristol 200k in December that is £10.50 to enter, again includes food but is still costly. Perm cards are what, 4 quid a shot nowadays?! I'm really not moaning but I guess you'll see folk enter less events due to financial constraints. I'd like to enter a bunch of rides but am skint, so I guess it's Mark Rigby's January Sale (1 pound) for me.
Times are hard, thrills are cheaper...
Inflation... assuming an inflation at 2% average, in 10 years prices rise nearly 30%... so your 8 pounds become 10.50. Any hobby costs money...
There are ways to make some extra cash with your cycling... I have "guided" folks around the Surrey hills, ahead of their London 100 charity ride a few years ago. 100 quid to cycle 60 miles (and free lunch)... there are worse ways to spend a saturday morning. Get in touch with one of the gazillion charities that rule these events, they often look for experienced cyclists.
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I'm not be-grudging organisers anything. I just looked at the snowdrop audax, a great 120k audax which costs £8.50 plus £4 to ece it = over 12 squirrels for a 200k event. I know it's a great ride and includes food but is still a cost. There is a Bristol 200k in December that is £10.50 to enter, again includes food but is still costly. Perm cards are what, 4 quid a shot nowadays?! I'm really not moaning but I guess you'll see folk enter less events due to financial constraints. I'd like to enter a bunch of rides but am skint, so I guess it's Mark Rigby's January Sale (1 pound) for me.
Times are hard, thrills are cheaper...
Just enter the £5 ones then and dont ECE them. Or alternatively just go for a ride by yourself....tremendous value for money.
Sorry to hear about you impecunious predicament.
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Blimey! :facepalm:
Well lets look at the other side of the coin shall we.... I am currently trying to get CBH to agree to let me do the Etape Loch Ness next year.... I don't think she is taken by the fact that I will be away for three nights. However, the cost for the 110km ride on closed roads (the only reason I want to do it as there is no way I would ride on the main road to the north of the loch if it was open to traffic!) is likely to be north of £65.
Then I was reading in Tri220 this month some of the major triathlons cost well over £300 a pop.
So, at mostly less than a tenner a go, I think Audax are great value... okay you don't get an energy gel half way around or a medal at the end, but I can live without that.
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I set the price for my 200 at £9, based on not really knowing how much it was going to cost me to run it (as it was my first time organising) but wanting to ensure I didn’t make a loss. I’m aware it’s towards the higher end of the spectrum but most of it went on the catering - I took a quality over quantity approach. Because that’s my preference.
As it happens, I overestimated my costs and ended up with a surplus, which I donated to charity. I could have kept it for myself but I’d have to declare it on my tax return which isn’t worth the faff for the sums involved.
If I were charging at my usual professional rate, the amount wouldn’t have even paid for a full day of my time.
I’ve set the price the same for next year’s event and plan to allocate more funds to laying on more support at controls.
I see no evidence at all that rising prices for audax events is affecting numbers - quite the opposite, in fact.
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My events fall within this range but are charged at cost. During my tenure fees rose by £2 over a period of 7 years to reflect costs. Per rider, costs exceeded an individual’s entry fee and had everyone turned up on the day I would have been hit with a large financial loss which AUK does not cover. My recent Autumn Rivers event, cost £6.50 to enter and it ran at a loss after hall fees, AUK charges and costs of providing a meal for all finishers was deducted. When considering fees for next year, one has to consider inflation which usually hits food costs either directly or via cafe food vouchers, so for 2018 I have increased fees to counter that threat. All this compares starkly to sportives that or more but provide considerably less than an audax.
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I'm really not moaning but I guess you'll see folk enter less events due to financial constraints. I'd like to enter a bunch of rides but am skint, so I guess it's Mark Rigby's January Sale (1 pound) for me.
While finances have at times been a constraint on how many I enter, I don't think I've ever done one where the entry fee has been the largest cost, I've always spent more on travel and cafes. Money was tight for a while last year when I was between jobs, £16 for six DIYs and take sandwiches, sorted that. I appreciate all the organisers do, given the above, the difference between £6 and £10 isn't going to make any difference to whether I enter or not.
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A lot of the smaller sportives are run on similar lines to Audax events, by volunteers and not for profit (although often with a charity donation built into the price since they are often run specifically as fundraisers).
Big commercial sportives need to make enough money to pay the staff a reasonable wage but there still aren’t many people getting properly rich off them.
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A lot of the smaller sportives are run on similar lines to Audax events, by volunteers and not for profit (although often with a charity donation built into the price since they are often run specifically as fundraisers).
Big commercial sportives need to make enough money to pay the staff a reasonable wage but there still aren’t many people getting properly rich off them.
And even those few left that are run by volunteers always cost in excess of 20 pounds... which is 2 to 3 times the average cost of a BR 200.
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I rode the cambridge autumnal yesterday. £8.50 with food included at start and finish.
I spent £5 at each cafe and it was a 170 mile round trip to the start
entry cost of £6 or £10 is really neither here nor there, audax events represent incredible value as far as I am concerned.
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And even those few left that are run by volunteers always cost in excess of 20 pounds... which is 2 to 3 times the average cost of a BR 200.
I can think of at least three local sportives off the top of my head that cost £15 or less to enter.
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A friend has financial constraints which put non-essential things like cycle events out of reach. Food and travel are the main factors. Reducing the cost of entry would have little bearing in most cases.
When I was running the K&SW it was a repeated hassle to find suitable halls at reasonable prices, and setting the fee was difficult as entry numbers varied considerably from year to year. My current set of events are simple to organise and run.
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As I said, it is unthinkable to reduce the current AUK fees even further. Some of these Brevets cost the same as an inner tube. If the OP wants to ride brevets, he'll have to find a way to make some extra cash or to save it somewhere else.
When I needed a bit of extra pocket money, I always found a way to raise it...
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Steady, now - that sounds a bit Tebbitt-ish.....
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Steady, now - that sounds a bit Tebbitt-ish.....
Maybe it is a sign of the times... when on the one end you have keen cyclists who cannot afford a 10 pound entry fee and at the other hand you have cyclists who collect bicycles worth several thousands and are happy to spend 500 pounds for an 80 grams carbon saddle that comes in a wooden box with the signature of the artisan who made it.
Surely this is one for May or Corbyn to sort out, rather than AUK
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Sure. But I've met Doo (I think) and I hate to think of him on hard times. I've ridden hundreds of Audaxes and helped on loads as well and think they are absolutely marvellous value for money. I certainly don't see how the prices could be reduced on most events. But I feel great sympathy for anyone who is in Doo's position. It really isn't that easy to just find extra cash. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have the kind of collection to which you refer!
Peter
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I'm on various cycling group committees.
Seems to me that room/hall hire is very variable.
Some places we use cost 'peanuts'. Others have seen major price hikes over the last few years. I'm sure this is a major factor, with some churches/community organisations attempting to maximise income by charging 'competitive' commercial rents.
Our meetings take only a couple of hours.
An Audax event might need to book a venue for a LOT longer.
I'm sure this is a major factor on events with any facilities.
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Sure. But I've met Doo (I think) and I hate to think of him on hard times. I've ridden hundreds of Audaxes and helped on loads as well and think they are absolutely marvellous value for money. I certainly don't see how the prices could be reduced on most events. But I feel great sympathy for anyone who is in Doo's position. It really isn't that easy to just find extra cash. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have the kind of collection to which you refer!
Peter
Obviously...
My point is: AUdax prices cannot be reduced without them becoming "saturday club rides", where people meet outside the local pub. Pay squeeze is a real problem... I think I lost about 20% of my disposable income over the past decade. At the moment I am fine, but I went through periods where I needed to raise some extra cash if I wanted to buy a new pair of tubeless tyres or I wanted to enter an expensive sportive. The 10 pounds were never a problem, but the 50 or 100 were a bit harder to find.
There are ways and even just cycling, it is possible to raise cash and make turning pedals work for you
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I dont think many [organisers] are in it as a get rich quick venture.
I am. It doesn't work. Other ideas for getting rich I've seen include busking outside LEL control venues. That didn't seem to work either.
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But I've met Doo (I think) and I hate to think of him on hard times.
If Doo wants to enter a particular Audax ride and can't afford the entrance fee, I'm sure we can all chip in
and cover the cost?
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I dont think many [organisers] are in it as a get rich quick venture.
I am. It doesn't work. Other ideas for getting rich I've seen include busking outside LEL control venues. That didn't seem to work either.
Might have something to do with the quality of entertainment provided!
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I've come across a few un-savoury types busking outside audax controls - one strange bloke can sometimes be seen plucking a ukulele - I find him most strange indeed.
Now then back to Doo's original thread - times may be hard & whilst Doo openly admits to being skint just now, fear not & it may be best to direct your sympathy or sniping comments elsewhere as for sure he's rich in other areas of life if not the wallet just now. I've ridden many happy miles with Doo & often his famous footnote to LEL has me tittering & smiling profusely -
Doo has done as much to attract me to audaxing as anyone else on this planet has - excluding that strange bloke with his ukulele ...
P.S - I'll openly admit that I'm "as tight as cramp" where money is concerned.....but don't mind shelling out a tenner or so if it means i ride with blokes like Doo.
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I find 'Fantasy Audax' good value. I can print my own Brevet cards for a trip to the shops, and use receipts as proof of passage. I had one of those John Bull printing sets as a child, so it's a return to more innocent times.
There's always going to be a cheaper way of cycling, but few offer the discipline off a 6am start, and a full day awheel.
The bigger the fee, the bigger the prod to the indolent to leave their beds. I should be able to rouse myself to ride to Carlisle and back, starting at 6am, but I know I'm weak-willed enough to need a structure. I don't even have the excuse of having to travel to find decent riding.
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Hi Folks,
Back in the day audax events were cheap as chips. It now appears they are becoming quite pricey. Anyone else noticed this phenomena?!
Doo
All my perms are free.
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Depending where you live, the overall cost of an audax will vary. For example, living in or near Tewksbury will result in ample opportunities for riding events at very little cost, relatively. For other areas then costs, that may be significant, can arise by way of travel and/or accommodation. Doo appears to be based in Warwickshire and any involvement in audax will involve travel and possibly accommodation costs that l suspect will be well in excess of any entry fee.
I recall our parish council increasing the precept (part of the council tax that goes directly to parish council) and explaining it by being equivalent to less than a standard coffee at Costa, or a pint in the pub, for the most expensive grade of property. If audax entry fees are considered in this context, then I think they are good value for money and forgoing the odd coffee/pint or two in order to finance them is worth it IMO.
I like events that start in the evening as that means no accommodation costs and reduces overall costs, such as Plains 300 starting at 2300. I still have to complete a 130 mile round trip to take part in that event and purchase sustenance as PoP and to fuel me, but the lack of accommodation cost associated with an early start makes it more affordable.
Perhaps we should, as a community be looking at how we could support the needs of others in terms of shared lifts to events and/or accommodation, be it dossing down in someone's home or in a Travelodge etc. Audax can become a solitary experience if you end-up riding by yourself and no need to expand that to the whole experience when we could be offering support.
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"AUdax prices cannot be reduced without them becoming "saturday club rides", where people meet outside the local pub. "
Nothing wrong with that and apart from the 'pub' it is how all of our rides are conducted but usually outside a convenient store.
But the thing that strikes me about most of the comments on this tread is the mean spirited snarkiness of the majority of the posters. Boo expressed a reasonable concern and the responses - including this one - "If Doo wants to enter a particular Audax ride and can't afford the entrance fee, I'm sure we can all chip in
and cover the cost?" has been appalling."
Frankly, do you think you might come across as a trifle elitist?.
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Not appalling. Just expressing a thought and opinion. It is a forum you know. ;) Many on this forum are from an generation
that had to save up for things we wanted.
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"AUdax prices cannot be reduced without them becoming "saturday club rides", where people meet outside the local pub. "
Nothing wrong with that and apart from the 'pub' it is how all of our rides are conducted but usually outside a convenient store.
But the thing that strikes me about most of the comments on this tread is the mean spirited snarkiness of the majority of the posters. Boo expressed a reasonable concern and the responses - including this one - "If Doo wants to enter a particular Audax ride and can't afford the entrance fee, I'm sure we can all chip in
and cover the cost?" has been appalling."
Frankly, do you think you might come across as a trifle elitist?.
I really don't think I posted anything mean-spirited or snarky.
I am the sort of rider who needed shelter from the elements at controls, usually with a respectable toilet. I didn't expect this to be without cost and was personally lucky enough to be able to afford this.
I had a hot chocolate and a sandwich at Costa last week as we were hungry and it was windy.
This indulgence cost more than many of the Audax rides we are discussing.
We stayed less than an hour at Costa.
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I haven't heard anyone saying that the cost of an Audax could be significantly reduced. Personally I think it could, but then people won't bother to do them, as they would be glorified club rides, just you have to travel further to do one... what's the incentive, if you remove the brevet card, the points system and all of that?
The camaraderie? Well, to be frank, 90% of the time I am no my own.
If the price is right, then it comes down to individual circumstances.
The initial post asked whether Audax have become more expensive... I don't think they have, not beyond inflation... what used to cost 5, now costs 7 and what used to cost 7 now costs 10.
That is a far cry from the inflation cycling events in general have seen: take "The Eroica", which I entered in 2005 for 10 Euro, in 2006 for 15, in 2011 for 40 Euro and now it costs 70.
Or other forms of entertainment... take the 6 nations rugby. In 2007 I went to Dublin and paid 25 Euro for a ticket. In 2008 I went to Murrayfield and paid 40 pounds for a ticket, in 2009 I went to Cardiff and paid 60 pounds for a ticket... in 2010 I wanted to go to Twickenham and they wanted 120 pounds... I drew a line there and then.
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I've entered a couple for the first time in a couple of years, noticed a small increase here and there but delving a little deeper showed more organisers in my neck of the woods putting on inclusive food stops our breakfast at start plus food at finish. I'm well impressed that with this in mind they're still such good vfm.
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I am, sadly, old enough to remember a time when an El Supremo audax was on the same day that I was due to go to a pub for lunch with The Present Mrs Mmmmartin and I reckoned it would have been a bloody sight cheaper for both of us to enter the audax, rock up at a control and stuff our faces.
(One hesitates to say better company as well. That would be A Bad Thing to say.)
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I dont think many [organisers] are in it as a get rich quick venture.
I am. It doesn't work. Other ideas for getting rich I've seen include busking outside LEL control venues. That didn't seem to work either.
I didn't tell you about the hush money, did I?!
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Step changes occur in pricing when a new generation enters the marketplace. The prices I charge for my work haven't changed much over the last decade, as the market has been weak. Those starting today expect more, and they're less productive, so their prices have to be higher.
So it's a good sign that prices are rising. It shows that there's strong demand, and that new organisers are putting on rides.
That effect is going to be more marked in those prosperous areas, where cycling has become fashionable.
An interesting question is what happens in the peripheral areas. The North and Scotland, where organisers find themselves putting on rides which those from the South would happily pay more for, to ensure better facilities. But where higher prices would disadvantage local riders with lower expectations
Volunteers aren't always going to want to put themselves out to make rides cheap for people who are richer than themselves, and could afford more.
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I am, sadly, old enough to remember a time when an El Supremo audax was on the same day that I was due to go to a pub for lunch with The Present Mrs Mmmmartin and I reckoned it would have been a bloody sight cheaper for both of us to enter the audax, rock up at a control and stuff our faces.
(One hesitates to say better company as well. That would be A Bad Thing to say.)
I am sure it would still be the case.
I paid 35 pounds to enter the National 400, which included 7 meals, as well as the Brevet and all. I thought maybe I could one day do the route again with some friends as a DIY... but there is no way we would be able to go around it with a 35 pounds budget. Even just eating Ginster pasties and Mars bars and get sick along the way, it would be bloody hard to spend less than that.
Typically, in an x-rated 200, I end up spending more than the entry fee just in food along the way and I never stop at cafes
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I paid 35 pounds to enter the National 400, which included 7 meals, as well as the Brevet and all. I thought maybe I could one day do the route again with some friends as a DIY... but there is no way we would be able to go around it with a 35 pounds budget. Even just eating Ginster pasties and Mars bars and get sick along the way, it would be bloody hard to spend less than that.
Typically, in an x-rated 200, I end up spending more than the entry fee just in food along the way and I never stop at cafes
The "National" events I've done have been well run and great value. However:
Surely you could carry the food for a 200 if that was an important issue for you? (Probably a 400 too ... would require more specific luggage, but very doable.)
Might not be as nice as cafe or good control food, sadly :D
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I paid 35 pounds to enter the National 400, which included 7 meals, as well as the Brevet and all. I thought maybe I could one day do the route again with some friends as a DIY... but there is no way we would be able to go around it with a 35 pounds budget. Even just eating Ginster pasties and Mars bars and get sick along the way, it would be bloody hard to spend less than that.
Typically, in an x-rated 200, I end up spending more than the entry fee just in food along the way and I never stop at cafes
The "National" events I've done have been well run and great value. However:
Surely you could carry the food for a 200 if that was an important issue for you? (Probably a 400 too ... would require more specific luggage, but very doable.)
Might not be as nice as cafe or good control food, sadly :D
I recall the late Derek Shuttleworth carrying a primus stove and supplies on the Mountain Roads of S Wales.
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I paid 35 pounds to enter the National 400, which included 7 meals, as well as the Brevet and all. I thought maybe I could one day do the route again with some friends as a DIY... but there is no way we would be able to go around it with a 35 pounds budget. Even just eating Ginster pasties and Mars bars and get sick along the way, it would be bloody hard to spend less than that.
Typically, in an x-rated 200, I end up spending more than the entry fee just in food along the way and I never stop at cafes
The "National" events I've done have been well run and great value. However:
Surely you could carry the food for a 200 if that was an important issue for you? (Probably a 400 too ... would require more specific luggage, but very doable.)
Might not be as nice as cafe or good control food, sadly :D
I probably could get up at 4 AM instead of 5 AM to prepare sandwiches to carry with me... that would save some money... not all the money, as I still have to buy food to make such sandwiches... Then I'd have to collect ATM receipts only, as they are probably the only free proof of passage... pick up 10 quid in 4 different places in the same day and your bank might decide it is suspicious activity and block your card. And what about those ATM that refuse to give out a receipt despite being asked to? It happened to me several times.
Frankly it all sounds a great deal of hassle
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Dig your receipts out of bins, duh ;)
And there's the story of one rider who was queuing with his bottle of soft drink for his receipt at a garage. There was a chap in front buying petrol and fags, and the garage attendant asked if he wanted his receipt. When he said "No", the rider said "I'll have it!". Took it, then went to put the bottle of soft drink back in the fridge...
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The cost of food to get round a 200 is the money you spent on meals the day before. Eating on the way round is just self-indulgence.
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Nice one Deano - I was hoping that one would be our little secret ... Tight as cramp I am.... There must be others who share my thrift though ?
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I was shown the bin idea in around 2008 by a frequent poster - and much respected rider/organiser - on this very forum!
(TBF, it was at a Tesco, who I'm pretty sure could manage without our business, and most riders were using the ATM.)
If folks really want to save money in the must-get-a-receipt scenario, then do some planning, and just buy non-food stuff that you'll need at home anyway.
[Firelighters, WD40, Sunday Times - also useful on cold descents, postage stamps - if you really resent paying "petrol station" prices, bags of charcoal, pet-food, "specialist" magazines, etc ... ]
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What if the receipt dug out of the bin (hoping there are no dog turds) was printed ahead of the official control opening?
As we seem to like to brag on here... well, I have to admit I tend to get to the first control within a few minutes from its opening... ;D
As usual, we seem to have reached a dead end and maybe we need some input from the OP
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This from the AUK site:
"Some events are noted for the quality of home-cooked food and tender loving care supplied along the way. But most are not - self-sufficiency is a highly-regarded quality in AUK." But not any more?
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I see no evidence at all that rising prices for audax events is affecting numbers - quite the opposite, in fact.
Case in point
2016 severn across £8.50 36 finishers
2017 London Wales london £23 81 finishers
It seems to me the market demands more support not lower prices.
In 2016 the cost of food I bought at the two controls which subsequently became catered was less than the price difference but I am aware that many riders would not have made membury services while hot food was still available and having a hall to eat and relax, maybe even nap was good.
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But the thing that strikes me about most of the comments on this tread is the mean spirited snarkiness of the majority of the posters. Boo expressed a reasonable concern and the responses - including this one - "If Doo wants to enter a particular Audax ride and can't afford the entrance fee, I'm sure we can all chip in
and cover the cost?" has been appalling."
Frankly, do you think you might come across as a trifle elitist?.
Maybe I'm reading through rose-tinted spectacles, but I don't recognise your characterisation of the responses as elitist, mean spirited or appalling at all - even de Sisti's comment about having a whip round, coming as it does immediately after a post about Doo being one of the good guys, struck me as in fun and kindly meant, not as a snide riposte. But I guess we each read these things in our own way.
I confess I look a little askance at X-rated events that are a tenner or more, but there aren't many of those, and where I'll be fed, have shelter in a couple of village halls, and maybe even get a beer at the end I think a few pounds more gives exceptional value.
While clearly if you don't have those few extra pounds spare you don't have them, I do find that unless I'm able to ride to the start (I generally try to pick events where that's possible), then the entry fee is the least of my expenses, what with train tickets, possible accommodation, and food either before or on the way round.
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This from the AUK site:
"Some events are noted for the quality of home-cooked food and tender loving care supplied along the way. But most are not - self-sufficiency is a highly-regarded quality in AUK." But not any more?
Yes, highly regarded, but most of us for our sins enjoy a warm stew and a bowl of apple pie with custard included in the entry fee... even if that means an extra fiver. I will look at you consuming your Ginster pasty in the rain with zero envy... :P
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Typically, in an x-rated 200, I end up spending more than the entry fee just in food along the way and I never stop at cafes
200 doesn't demand a lot of food intake - i did one today on three bananas and a bottle of energy drink (under two quid altogether?)
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If folks really want to save money in the must-get-a-receipt scenario, then do some planning, and just buy non-food stuff that you'll need at home anyway.
I used to buy the i newspaper when it was something like 30p. Sun/Mirror/Star are still very cheap and probably deserve to be put in bin (or back on the shelf). I have been known to buy a 20p chewy bar, ask for a receipt and put the chewy bar in the bin.
If I just want PoP I always buy the cheapest thing possible and often just bin it.
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Typically, in an x-rated 200, I end up spending more than the entry fee just in food along the way and I never stop at cafes
200 doesn't demand a lot of food intake - i did one today on three bananas and a bottle of energy drink (under two quid altogether?)
Different folk have different metabolism and what suits you may not suit others. Might also depend on weather conditions on the day and route.
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In the spirit of 'self-sufficiency-lite', I route my events via towns or villages with cafes or pubs wherever possible.
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In my case, I run events that are events that I would want to do if I was riding - if you see what I mean
So I think "what would the ideal 400 starting from my area look like?" and then take it from there
So the 400 starts / finishes at a pub. There is a super-duper night stop and then all the rest of the controls are unmanned garages / cafes / shops
There is free camping at the start / finish, it's a bit basic but it's in a great spot
If you make it round and get to the finish pub then you get an inclusive meal
When I first started doing the event, I think this was 5 years ago, it cost £15. Most of the money has always gone on the pub meal. This keeps the people that run the pub sweet. Initially I was getting the camping field free but now they are getting a donation to church funds. I have some great helpers and some years they get a free tee shirt.
All the various costs were included in the original entry fee. But the cost of everything has gone up, it's £19 now. The event pretty much breaks even. The event is limited to 40 starters and last couple of years it's sold out
I did run a 300 last year and that ran at a loss. It was an easy 300 with a full service control 50km from the end as I figure that's how a 300 should work.
If I wanted to run a cheap to enter event it would have no facilities, it's getting halls, meals and parking sorted out that costs $$$
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I'm just grateful there's plenty of organised rides of all types. I think the only point I'd be put off is 600 and up as x rated, but happy to try all flavours on offer j up to that point!
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Not to beat this about the head, but this is a listing of a calendar year of events at a local Randonneuring group. Cost: $30 (25 pounds) one time for the entire year.
2017/2018 Brevet Ride Schedule:
Distance Date Start Time Start Location Brevet Type Name
200k 8/26/2017 6am Bee Cave RUSA San Marcos Stretch
100k 9/23/2017 7am Georgetown RUSA GrangerFlo Pop
200k 9/23/2017 7am Georgetown RUSA Rock Dale and Ice
300k 10/14/2017 7am Georgetown RUSA Rock-burn 300
120k 10/28/2017 7am Georgetown RUSA RUSA Dart
400k 11/4/2017 7am Georgetown RUSA Stampede Redux
100k 11/11/2017 7am Georgetown RUSA Lott'O Gravel
324k 11/18/2017 7am Downtown Austin RUSA Mueller Double Century
600k 12/2/2017 7am Georgetown RUSA CDB 600
200k 12/9/2017 7am Lakeway RUSA Loop Around Lake Travis
200k 1/6/2018 7am West Austin ACP Johnson City
200k 1/13/2018 7am Downtown Austin ACP No Return to Fitzhugh
200k 2/3/2018 7am West Austin ACP San Marcos Stretch
300k 2/3/2018 7am West Austin ACP Pedernales Double Century
300k 2/24/2018 7am Downtown Austin ACP Mueller Double Century
200k 3/3/2018 6am West Austin ACP San Marcos Stretch
400k 3/3/2018 6am West Austin ACP Come and Take it 400k
400k 3/24/2018 7am Downtown Austin ACP Burnet Cameron 400k
600k 4/7/2018 6am Downtown Austin ACP Old Dime Box 600k
1000k 4/28/2018 6am Downtown Austin ACP BKB 1000
200k 9/29/2018 7am Georgetown RUSA Rock Dale and Ice
300k 10/13/2018 7am Georgetown RUSA Rock-burn 300
400k 11/3/2018 7am Georgetown RUSA Stampede Redux
600k 12/1/2018 7am Georgetown RUSA Rock the Stampede
200k 12/8/2018 7am Georgetown RUSA Georgetown Jog
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Typically, in an x-rated 200, I end up spending more than the entry fee just in food along the way and I never stop at cafes
200 doesn't demand a lot of food intake - i did one today on three bananas and a bottle of energy drink (under two quid altogether?)
a 200 it's give or take 4,000 Kcalories. At best you can store around 2,000 in glycogen, the rest has to come from food. That unless you go very slow and your energy comes in large proportion from fat (of which I don't have a lot anyway)
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Not to beat this about the head, but ...............
Very interesting.
Now, back to events in the UK and AUK, as I believe that is where Doo does his audaxing!
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Typically, in an x-rated 200, I end up spending more than the entry fee just in food along the way and I never stop at cafes
200 doesn't demand a lot of food intake - i did one today on three bananas and a bottle of energy drink (under two quid altogether?)
Different folk have different metabolism and what suits you may not suit others. Might also depend on weather conditions on the day and route.
Agreed. Having by far the feeblest aerobic capacity of my group on a Sports Medicine course, I reckon I needed frequent fuelling to keep going.
I have taken others' advice to eat less on/after rides. The results have been spectacular failure to progress.
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Typically, in an x-rated 200, I end up spending more than the entry fee just in food along the way and I never stop at cafes
200 doesn't demand a lot of food intake - i did one today on three bananas and a bottle of energy drink (under two quid altogether?)
a 200 it's give or take 4,000 Kcalories. At best you can store around 2,000 in glycogen, the rest has to come from food. That unless you go very slow and your energy comes in large proportion from fat (of which I don't have a lot anyway)
31kph average, so not very slow. even the skinniest people have plenty of fat in their bodies to draw the energy from for few hours. strava says the ride burned 4700cal - maybe?
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Not to beat this about the head, but this is a listing of a calendar year of events at a local Randonneuring group. Cost: $30 (25 pounds) one time for the entire year.
If you can make the maths work at that level then great, although whether the less active members of AUK would like to see a £9/yr rise in their annual membership (or £13.80, more than double the fee if they pay in 5 year installments), and family members a £6.40 rise in annual membership (more than doubling the fee, and who would also lose the multi-year discount), in order to cross subsidise more active members would be something for debate. It would also be interesting to see if the higher membership fees would themselves be a barrier for poorer riders to enter in the first place.
Eventually 'penny-pinching' in order to keep entrance fees down will mean that the number of rides available for riders decreases. Yes there is a drive in AUK to keep costs down, but none of the organisers are actually making much (or any) money out of the rides at the current costs, so to reduce the entry fees either they have to make a loss (which will put organisers off), or offer even less than currently. X rated events appeal to many, but so do fully supported events. One is not inherently purer than the other.
To take the argument to an extreme. There's nothing stopping anyone going out and doing a long ride on their own and paying nobody in AUK anything.
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I see no evidence at all that rising prices for audax events is affecting numbers - quite the opposite, in fact.
Case in point
2016 severn across £8.50 36 finishers
2017 London Wales london £23 81 finishers
Your point may be valid, WW, but I don't think your particular comparison supports it rigorously: Severn Across started in Macclesfield, whereas LWL started in.....?
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2016 Plains 300 £5.00
2017 Plains 300 £5.00
2016 Green and Yellow Fields 300 £4.00
2017 Green and Yellow Fields 300 £4.00
2016 Old Roads 300 £8.00
2017 Old Roads 300 £8.00
Comparisons are easy via the Calendar option on AUK site.
Cost of entry not the major cost for AUK events IMO. Peripheral costs can add-up.
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Not to beat this about the head, but ...............
Very interesting.
Now, back to events in the UK and AUK, as I believe that is where Doo does his audaxing!
This isn't the AUK forum, so I see no reason to restrict the discussion to the UK.
That programme is clearly a regional one. The members of that club are probably RUSA members. So it's analagous to the likes of Audax Club Hackney having an all-in fee for all their events. If that's structured correctly, with individual ride prices as well, it could be a good model.
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Not to beat this about the head, but ...............
Very interesting.
Now, back to events in the UK and AUK, as I believe that is where Doo does his audaxing!
This isn't the AUK forum, so I see no reason to restrict the discussion to the UK.
Fair point and well put.
Apologies.
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Cost of entry not the major cost for AUK events IMO. Peripheral costs can add-up.
Indeed. Depending on geography, there is travel to the start and return from the finish, overnight accommodation and food & sundries en route.
On local rides these may be minimal.
They certainly aren't for distant events!
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I see no evidence at all that rising prices for audax events is affecting numbers - quite the opposite, in fact.
Case in point
2016 severn across £8.50 36 finishers
2017 London Wales london £23 81 finishers
Your point may be valid, WW, but I don't think your particular comparison supports it rigorously: Severn Across started in Macclesfield, whereas LWL started in.....?
Same ride renamed starting in both cases from chalfont st Peter. Same weekend same start same route. Hence the whole point of the comparison.
Not sure which ride you are talking about. 3 steps to severn perhaps?
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My Scottish 1000km next year is priced at a level deliberately higher than my anticipated costs to discourage chancers (those who will put an entry in just to try and keep an option over a place rather than being serious about it). Im hoping £17.50 is enough to stop folk entering on the off chance. Maybe other organisers are doing the same?
However before you think Im profiteering I always ensure riders get value for money though, one on occasion when I have a significant rate of DNSs I even stuck a fiver in each starters brevet card (not bad for an event with a £5 entry fee!).
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Not to beat this about the head, but ...............
Very interesting.
Now, back to events in the UK and AUK, as I believe that is where Doo does his audaxing!
I ride in both places. Member of Audax UK and RUSA.
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My Scottish 1000km next year is priced at a level deliberately higher than my anticipated costs to discourage chancers (those who will put an entry in just to try and keep an option over a place rather than being serious about it). Im hoping £17.50 is enough to stop folk entering on the off chance. Maybe other organisers are doing the same?
However before you think Im profiteering I always ensure riders get value for money though, one on occasion when I have a significant rate of DNSs I even stuck a fiver in each starters brevet card (not bad for an event with a £5 entry fee!).
I wouldn't worry about accusations of profiteering if I were you - I remember getting a bonus meal on your Mull it Over 300 in 2011 out of DNS funds at the Lochaline ferryport. And watching sea eagles circle overhead while I was munching my burger.
You should set the fee higher.
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Hi Folks,
Back in the day audax events were cheap as chips. It now appears they are becoming quite pricey. Anyone else noticed this phenomena?!
Doo
no not at all; could you give examples of events that have suddenly become pricey ? (without offering extras like overnight stays in halls included meals etc)
not trying to be obtuse (or even smug; my event entry fee has risen £1 in 12 years) I'm just curious; generally organisers charge a fee that will cover their costs (too many to list here but there can be many) and no more
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Interesting debate - some good points made by those with the relevant experience, along with plenty of other posts.
As is often seen as the signature of one of the long standing AUK's, "This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."
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Not to beat this about the head, but this is a listing of a calendar year of events at a local Randonneuring group. Cost: $30 (25 pounds) one time for the entire year.
It's not clear from your post or from the Hill Country Randonneurs (http://www.hillcountryrandonneurs.org/index.htm) website whether the $30 you quote is a membership fee (in which case there are ride fees on top) or whether you're making it up from the 2x$15 for entering two rides, less than a fortnight in advance (in which case you could presumably get it down to $20 by being a bit more organised).
In either case, the fact that any rides after your second in a year are free to enter is great, especially if the numbers work and let you include ACP homologation fees (I don't know if RUSA charges a per-ride validation fee).
But given that they *all* appear to be un- or lightly-supported (entirely commercial controls, *possible* sag), I'm not entirely certain that the comparison is particularly useful.
Just looking at the next few weeks on the AUK calendar gives us the Petworth 200 for six quid, with refreshments before and food halfway through, or the Upper Thames for a fiver, again with refreshments before and food at the end. Lucy's Long Dark Teatime is a tenner but feeds you *and* gives you a medal: the 100k Stansted Airport Express promises feck all in the way of facilities (apart from starting and finishing in a pub) but is only £4. Sure, that's just the first few I clicked on, and they're shorter events because we're coming into winter, but they're not untypical. A coffee before a ride and a cafe lunch (or even a supermarket sweep) is going to be at least six or eight quid - take that off the event entry fee, and you're essentially riding for free.
(Mind you, the travel costs to Austin would be a bit steep from here.)
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I see no evidence at all that rising prices for audax events is affecting numbers - quite the opposite, in fact.
Case in point
2016 severn across £8.50 36 finishers
2017 London Wales london £23 81 finishers
Your point may be valid, WW, but I don't think your particular comparison supports it rigorously: Severn Across started in Macclesfield, whereas LWL started in.....?
Same ride renamed starting in both cases from chalfont st Peter. Same weekend same start same route. Hence the whole point of the comparison.
Not sure which ride you are talking about. 3 steps to severn perhaps?
Of course! Please accept my apologies!
Peter
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"..you quote is a membership fee (in which case there are ride fees on top)"
One fee pays the first ride and subsequent rides are free, no other fees - but no sandwiches either.
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Typically, in an x-rated 200, I end up spending more than the entry fee just in food along the way and I never stop at cafes
200 doesn't demand a lot of food intake - i did one today on three bananas and a bottle of energy drink (under two quid altogether?)
a 200 it's give or take 4,000 Kcalories. At best you can store around 2,000 in glycogen, the rest has to come from food. That unless you go very slow and your energy comes in large proportion from fat (of which I don't have a lot anyway)
31kph average, so not very slow. even the skinniest people have plenty of fat in their bodies to draw the energy from for few hours. strava says the ride burned 4700cal - maybe?
It is a realistic figure... where you got your calories remains a question mark. Three bananas and a Lucozade maybe add up to 600 calories at best.
Most people need to eat, if you are an exception, that could be an advantage should things turn bad
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It's perhaps worth pointing out the AUK don't organise any rides. The nearest they get to that is an underwriting function for LEL.
AUK is a validating body, which provides a platform for publicising rides, and promotes the principle of long distance cycling.
The rides are organised by individuals, clubs, or district associations of what was the Cyclists Touring Club. AUK used to have a dominant position, due to its function as a portal to Paris Brest Paris. There are now other high-profile long distance offers, which often cost a lot more.
For many years, suitable Audax bikes weren't mainstream. Now the fashion is for adventure or bikepacking bikes. That means that lots of younger people have the kit for Audax, which also offers social media profile.
There's always been a demand for 'out of town' activities for young people in Metropolitan areas. I was at a reunion for London Weekend Conservation Volunteers last Saturday and Sunday.
If you join up all the dots, then there's a place for more heavily-promoted rides at a higher price, with better facilities. Whether those rides can still embody the 'quirky' nature of Audax is an interesting question.
There's a certain appeal in saying 'look at me, I'm doing this crazy ride, with these old folk on retro-bikes, and it's costing me buttons', and putting it on social media, especially if you're Rapha. Is there as much appeal when everyone looks the same as you, and it costs a realistic amount? Time will tell.
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Over the last decade or so of organising, my one cost that has skyrocketed is hall hire. The church PCC has caught on to the fact that their half-day cost was only a little less than the hourly rate for similar town council owned facilities. I negotiated a more gradual increase as I've had a good long-term relationship with St Mary's [and usually send some surplus food their way afterwards] but will be paying full whack this year, so fees have been increasing by a pound/year to accommodate this.
Shoestring events have remained stable...but remind me to buy shares in Wetherspoons ;D
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It is a realistic figure... where you got your calories remains a question mark. Three bananas and a Lucozade maybe add up to 600 calories at best.
Most people need to eat, if you are an exception, that could be an advantage should things turn bad
my guess is - 1000cal from a large breakfast before, another 900cal from the food i took with me and the remaining 2800cal from stored glycogen and fat. (numbers are of course approximate)
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my guess is - 1000cal from a large breakfast before, another 900cal from the food i took with me and the remaining 2800cal from stored glycogen and fat. (numbers are of course approximate)
90 calories in a banana... a Lucozade might get you 300 at best. Point is you either run on a very fine line, or you have some interestic genetic treat that allows you to store an excess of glycogen... or you are an extremely efficient thermodynamic machine (unlikely).
My granpa had a friend who survived a couple of years in Buchenwald, as he was able to keep his body weight on less than 1000 calories a day... it's a gift!
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200 doesn't demand a lot of food intake - i did one today on three bananas and a bottle of energy drink (under two quid altogether?)
Good for you, show-off ;)
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my guess is - 1000cal from a large breakfast before, another 900cal from the food i took with me and the remaining 2800cal from stored glycogen and fat. (numbers are of course approximate)
90 calories in a banana... a Lucozade might get you 300 at best. Point is you either run on a very fine line, or you have some interestic genetic treat that allows you to store an excess of glycogen... or you are an extremely efficient thermodynamic machine (unlikely).
My granpa had a friend who survived a couple of years in Buchenwald, as he was able to keep his body weight on less than 1000 calories a day... it's a gift!
It's more to do with training.
You can train yourself to run off fat, not glycogen, and that's true even if you don't follow a ketogenic diet. The 'must eat regularly or bonk' is something that years of audaxing can train out of you. Zigzag's 31kph isn't him pushing hard- he's fast enough that that's a steady ride.
At some point over the next 6 months I'm going to find out if a year off destroys that ability. I expect it has.
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It's more to do with training.
You can train yourself to run off fat, not glycogen, and that's true even if you don't follow a ketogenic diet. The 'must eat regularly or bonk' is something that years of audaxing can train out of you. Zigzag's 31kph isn't him pushing hard- he's fast enough that that's a steady ride.
At some point over the next 6 months I'm going to find out if a year off destroys that ability. I expect it has.
I hate to talk about training zones on an Audax forum and it's way off-topic... but if Zigzag can function on almost solely fat and average 20 mph... then I am seriously impressed. That would put him in an "elite athlete" category. If I average 20 mph, it's on 100% glycogen and I tend to be at the fast end of the Audax spectrum.
Point is, the statement that you can run a 200 with almost zero food is not something that I would endorse... or indeed advise on a public forum! It seems a rather foolhardy thing to say
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Nonsense it's perfectly 'normal' to ride round a 200 without eating. As well as doing it alone, I've done it countless times in a bunchlet of 4 or so people. Riding time would be on the quickish side, under 10 hours, but then if you're bouncing all the controls that's not actually a fast road speed. I did usually carbo-load the day before the ride.
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I did my first 100ish km ride as "His Leggship being kind to a newbie" pace - easily equivalent to audax pace - on two slices of toast for breakfast, a cup of tea and a slice of cake at around 70km and an ice cream at the end. It was my furthest and fastest ride ever and we didn't stop at all other that doing the raincoat dance, or for a quick slurp from the water bottle (I hadn't mastered drinking on the move) while map checking for the first 70ish km.
My one and only 200ish ride - dun running on the back of Wowbagger's tandem - I think I'd eaten some lunch then had a bit of cake before the off, a salad sarnie at the half way, and I think one other roadside cake (accompanied by something almost but not entirely unlike tea) stop on the way. I handed out rather more cake, but didn't really fancy eating it. And that was apparently at lightning (for Wowbagger versions of lightning) speed - I vaguely remember we calculated at the time that we'd ended up more or less going at full value audax speeds, and it would have been a lot quicker had I paid better attention to bike fit and avoided the arse and foot pains that slowed us down dramatically in the last third. The Cubs, on the other hand, require regular calories in on anything over about 25km to avoid tetchiness and glacial speeds.
And I'm no elite athlete, and don't have years of audax training behind me. I could probably live off my hump for about a year tho :D
Some people ride hungry, others don't.
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i agree with frankly franky, i know quite a few riders (as i ride with them sometimes)who don't need a lot of calories when they ride. fwiw, during the last pbp no one from our group of ~50 stopped for food in the first 300km, and the average was 35kph..
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i agree with frankly franky, i know quite a few riders (as i ride with them sometimes)who don't need a lot of calories when they ride. fwiw, during the last pbp no one from our group of ~50 stopped for food in the first 300km, and the average was 35kph..
If you didn't stop, how did you guys cope with the fact that the max speed should be 30 kph? On the back of an envelope, 35 km/h means roughly 8:30 h to do 300 km... but you have to comply with the 10 hour minimum BRM rule. So you must have stopped for at least 90 minutes... what did you do for 90 minutes if you didn't eat?
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I hate to talk about training zones on an Audax forum and it's way off-topic... but if Zigzag can function on almost solely fat and average 20 mph... then I am seriously impressed. That would put him in an "elite athlete" category.
Zigzag is an elite athlete (as he not infrequently reminds us, often in humblebrag as in this thread). However, I think it’s unusual even for elite athletes to abstain from food just to prove a point. Most people I ride with consume a fair amount of calories even on a 100 km ride. Then again, I ride with people who do it for fun, not for the masochism that prevails in audax culture.
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i agree with frankly franky, i know quite a few riders (as i ride with them sometimes)who don't need a lot of calories when they ride. fwiw, during the last pbp no one from our group of ~50 stopped for food in the first 300km, and the average was 35kph..
If you didn't stop, how did you guys cope with the fact that the max speed should be 30 kph? On the back of an envelope, 35 km/h means roughly 8:30 h to do 300 km... but you have to comply with the 10 hour minimum BRM rule. So you must have stopped for at least 90 minutes... what did you do for 90 minutes if you didn't eat?
PBP has different time limits for different groups. The vedette start allows the fastest maximum speed, effectively unlimited outward bound.
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i agree with frankly franky, i know quite a few riders (as i ride with them sometimes)who don't need a lot of calories when they ride. fwiw, during the last pbp no one from our group of ~50 stopped for food in the first 300km, and the average was 35kph..
If you didn't stop, how did you guys cope with the fact that the max speed should be 30 kph? On the back of an envelope, 35 km/h means roughly 8:30 h to do 300 km... but you have to comply with the 10 hour minimum BRM rule. So you must have stopped for at least 90 minutes... what did you do for 90 minutes if you didn't eat?
PBP is not BRM. Different rules apply, according to your start time. [edit: as LW&B]
Zigzag is an elite athlete (as he not infrequently reminds us, often in humblebrag as in this thread). However, I think it’s unusual even for elite athletes to abstain from food just to prove a point. Most people I ride with consume a fair amount of calories even on a 100 km ride. Then again, I ride with people who do it for fun, not for the masochism that prevails in audax culture.
He's not abstaining, just fueling beforehand and 'topping-up' minimally on the event. Certainly not unusual.
The only 'masochism' I see is as expressed in humorous repartee. But AUK is founded on the idea of the challenge of long-distance.
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But AUK is founded on the idea of the challenge of long-distance.
And sef sufficiency, yes... which does not mean one has to survive out his own body fat or out of his panniers content alone... I accept that in remote areas, where sourcing food is problematic, then some survival skills and a frugal attitude are necessary... but where that is not a necessity, then I see little point in promoting food deprivation. ::-)
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But AUK is founded on the idea of the challenge of long-distance.
And sef sufficiency, yes... which does not mean one has to survive out his own body fat or out of his panniers content alone... I accept that in remote areas, where sourcing food is problematic, then some survival skills and a frugal attitude are necessary... but where that is not a necessity, then I see little point in promoting food deprivation. ::-)
You seem to have missed my answer to the question of food, and misunderstood my answer to the accusation of masochism.
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It's perhaps worth pointing out the AUK don't organise any rides. The nearest they get to that is an underwriting function for LEL.
I would like to kill that comment on the head now .. there is NO agreement between AUK and LEL for them to provide any financial assistance .. LEL is set up as a company limited by guarantee so that if we get it wrong, we can put the company into liquidation.
In fact going back to the 2013 event .. it is my deeply held personal belief that AUK were just about as unhelpful as they could possibly be.. the facts are straight forward when paypal locked all the entry fees until after the event I had to explore remortaging my house .. with my wife having to take separate legal advice .. and it took several months before AUK sitting on a huge cash sum , was prepared to advance us £40,000 .. despite knowing how much was locked at paypal and having a regular sight of our detailed budgets.
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there are too many assumptions in some of the sceptical posts above (e.g. did i ever mention lucozade? did anyone advocate riding hungry?). i have only suggested that a regular 200 ride does not require much extra food above what someone would have eaten anyway - and i have enough examples to prove it works. the trick is listen to your body and not miss the point when energy top up is required. bear in mind i'm only talking about the rides up to 200k.
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. i have only suggested that for me a regular 200 ride does not require much extra food above what I someone would have eaten anyway ...
FTFY ;)
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I see little point in promoting food deprivation. ::-)
That's not what anyone is suggesting at all - as Ian H says, you seem to have grasped the wrong end of the stick.
Having ridden with zigzag (briefly) I can confirm that he rides at that pace without apparently breaking sweat. I couldn't keep up with him long enough to find out if he suffered later in the ride but suffice to say he got to the finish a long time before me.
Anyway, the point is that it's possible to ride a 200 without spending a lot on food along the way. If you do a DIY by GPS, there's no requirement for proofs of passage, so you are free to ride without stopping or spending any money beyond the small entry fee. It's precisely because DIY by GPS are cheap and convenient that I've done several of them this year - eg I did one starting from home with a sandwich, an apple and a can of pop my only purchases en route.
I'd always rather do calendar events for the company and seeing new places, but living in East Kent where calendar events are few means a lot of travel is involved. For me, as for others, entry fees are by far the smallest part of the expense for longer events. One of the main reasons I don't do many of them.
I'm planning to do the Scottish 1K next year and have already started making arrangements in order to minimise the costs. Given the no-frills nature of the event, I did wonder where the £17 entry fee came from, but I am none the less happy to pay it - it's a bargain. Even if the entry fee isn't paying for 'facilities' as such, it might go some way to covering the cost to our esteemed organiser in the time and effort involved in putting together and checking the route. I imagine these costs are not insignificant, even if they are hard to quantify precisely.
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Got to love the internet. let's take someone at the top of their game and give them a massively hard time as the numbers don't make sense to a more ordinary rider.
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Getting back on topic of cost the biggest cost by far for me and probably most is transport cost of getting to events.
This usually adds up to more than the entry fee and all food purchases on the day. Waiving entry fees completely would only reduce overall cost by a small percentage for most people .
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Nonsense it's perfectly 'normal' to ride round a 200 without eating. As well as doing it alone, I've done it countless times in a bunchlet of 4 or so people. Riding time would be on the quickish side, under 10 hours, but then if you're bouncing all the controls that's not actually a fast road speed. I did usually carbo-load the day before the ride.
I've got a life-time of carbo-loading before my rides. I tell my wife, that what she thinks of as excess weight, is really my slow-release energy store.
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Getting back on topic of cost the biggest cost by far for me and probably most is transport cost of getting to events.
This usually adds up to more than the entry fee and all food purchases on the day. Waiving entry fees completely would only reduce overall cost by a small percentage for most people .
This. I'd far rather organisers charged an economic, sustainable fee than scrimped and worried about every pound and risk running at a loss. The expectation of bargain basement prices must have a long term negative effect on the number of rides and willing organisers.
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i have only suggested that a regular 200 ride does not require much extra food above what someone would have eaten anyway - and i have enough examples to prove it works.
I'm more likely to be challenged by the minimum speed limit than the maximum, but have still found the same. I'll take a sandwich on a DIY 200, but am likely to be well on the way back before eating it and then most likely because I could do with a break off the bike rather than hunger.
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One thing this thread has me thinking about is how useful the current categorisation of events is, catering wise. I note, for example, that the Cambridge Pork Pie is "X-rated" despite having plentiful inclusive food at start and finish (but no manned controls on the way) whereas other events which have manned controls in commercial cafes and no food/drink whatsoever included are not. The "R" rating doesn't usefully differentiate the two either, due to the massive "reasonably priced" loophole.
The amount of catering supplied therefore often comes as a compete surprise!
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Over the last decade or so of organising, my one cost that has skyrocketed is hall hire. The church PCC has caught on to the fact that their half-day cost was only a little less than the hourly rate for similar town council owned facilities. I negotiated a more gradual increase as I've had a good long-term relationship with St Mary's [and usually send some surplus food their way afterwards] but will be paying full whack this year, so fees have been increasing by a pound/year to accommodate this.
Shoestring events have remained stable...but remind me to buy shares in Wetherspoons ;D
This seems to echo my reply #20 upthread.
Two of the Wetherspoon's pubs which sustained our clubs have closed as Wetherspoon's. One has reopened under another pub chain, one is now a Nando's. You can't necessarily rely on Wetherspoon's for ever. :(
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i agree with frankly franky, i know quite a few riders (as i ride with them sometimes)who don't need a lot of calories when they ride. fwiw, during the last pbp no one from our group of ~50 stopped for food in the first 300km, and the average was 35kph..
Good grief! 35 klips? That's about 22 MPH in real money. Obviously not your average weekend riding group.
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It's perhaps worth pointing out the AUK don't organise any rides. The nearest they get to that is an underwriting function for LEL.
I would like to kill that comment on the head now .. there is NO agreement between AUK and LEL for them to provide any financial assistance .. LEL is set up as a company limited by guarantee so that if we get it wrong, we can put the company into liquidation.
In fact going back to the 2013 event .. it is my deeply held personal belief that AUK were just about as unhelpful as they could possibly be.. the facts are straight forward when paypal locked all the entry fees until after the event I had to explore remortaging my house .. with my wife having to take separate legal advice .. and it took several months before AUK sitting on a huge cash sum , was prepared to advance us £40,000 .. despite knowing how much was locked at paypal and having a regular sight of our detailed budgets.
Um! Why were the fees paid into an account controlled by AUK if LEL was a separate company? ???
I suppose you arranged things differently for this year's LEL so the rascals over at AUK couldn't get their grubby little fingers into it? >:(
I would really hate you to have to remortgage your house to pay for the sandwiches, but maybe your wife needs separate legal advice living with you diddling way in the finances anyway? ::-)
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Getting back on topic of cost the biggest cost by far for me and probably most is transport cost of getting to events.
This usually adds up to more than the entry fee and all food purchases on the day. Waiving entry fees completely would only reduce overall cost by a small percentage for most people .
Plus possibly overnight accommodation if it's an early start and you don't live close to the start.
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Um! Why were the fees paid into an account controlled by AUK if LEL was a separate company? ???
I suppose you arranged things differently for this year's LEL so the rascals over at AUK couldn't get their grubby little fingers into it? >:(
I would really hate you to have to remortgage your house to pay for the sandwiches, but maybe your wife needs separate legal advice living with you diddling way in the finances anyway? ::-)
Stop. Please.
Last LEL FidgetBuzz was genuinely, really, no exaggeration, investigating (and may even have actually gone ahead with - I'm not sure and don't need to know) resolving the cashflow problem caused by Paypal accepting but then not releasing everyone's entry fees by putting his own home at risk. He was the 'money man' for the last two LELs which will have involved a ridiculous amount of unpaid work. Smilies don't make that a funny comment.
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Oh really, please don't get your knickers in a twist unnecessarily. It's all in fun. And FWIW, I've had many conversations with R....r.
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i agree with frankly franky, i know quite a few riders (as i ride with them sometimes)who don't need a lot of calories when they ride. fwiw, during the last pbp no one from our group of ~50 stopped for food in the first 300km, and the average was 35kph..
If you didn't stop, how did you guys cope with the fact that the max speed should be 30 kph? On the back of an envelope, 35 km/h means roughly 8:30 h to do 300 km... but you have to comply with the 10 hour minimum BRM rule. So you must have stopped for at least 90 minutes... what did you do for 90 minutes if you didn't eat?
PBP is not BRM. Different rules apply, according to your start time. [edit: as LW&B]
Even more OT, but ...
It pleases me to see that 35kph is almost exactly the speed required to complete PBP in 35 hours.
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One thing this thread has me thinking about is how useful the current categorisation of events is, catering wise. I note, for example, that the Cambridge Pork Pie is "X-rated" despite having plentiful inclusive food at start and finish (but no manned controls on the way) whereas other events which have manned controls in commercial cafes and no food/drink whatsoever included are not.
I was looking at this yesterday and the Pork Pie will NOT be categorised "X-rated" in future, for the reason you give — specifically we try to cater at the start and finish to give riders the opportunity to sit down with other riders and chat, relax, and enjoy the moment recovering from the ride with a cup of soup and a slice or two of Mrs WB's homemade cake (and tea, coffee, sandwiches, fruit, etc.). Out on the course you're expected to use commercial establishments, but there's just the single control at 100km in Melton Mowbray and you're hardly short on choice! And it's not as if you're expected to sleep in a hedge or eat roadkill :facepalm: ;D
I'm not sure a 200 can really be X-rated, but there's little-to-no info available to orgs to categorise their own rides consistently with others'.
PS. I'm just setting this up for 2018 at the moment ...
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i agree with frankly franky, i know quite a few riders (as i ride with them sometimes)who don't need a lot of calories when they ride. fwiw, during the last pbp no one from our group of ~50 stopped for food in the first 300km, and the average was 35kph..
Good grief! 35 klips? That's about 22 MPH in real money. Obviously not your average weekend riding group.
Zigzag finished PBP in about 60 hours, so he's not your average bimbler.
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Got to love the internet. let's take someone at the top of their game and give them a massively hard time as the numbers don't make sense to a more ordinary rider.
;D
FWIW, my own two-pennies, I'm firmly in the "don't need to eat much onna 200" camp. But, and this is the kicker, you do have to get used to it. I spent the past year riding the first 100km on every ride fasted — no breakfast and nothing to eat on the ride. Then I would have a sandwich or light lunch, because it was now lunchtime and I was hungry. Even when not on the bike, I skipped breakfast and had an omelette or something for lunch at 1pm. Your body just gets used to it. This was all in prep for LEL. I usually need to eat something sugary on the return leg as well — some JBs, or similar — but basically I could blat out a flattish 200 in sub 10 hours on fixed gear consuming just a few hundred calories while on the ride; the rest comes from glycogen and stored fat.
I run two calendar 200s and both have a 100km first leg to the turn — riders don't have to stop if they don't want to, although both rides have a large town at the quarter-distance point, so riders can if they feel the need. These are ideal for trying this yourself, as there are plenty of rescue points on the way to fill up. msd101 even rode the first leg to Framlingham on Saturday's Cambridge Autumnal without putting a foot down — 101km clipped-in all in one go ... on fixed-gear — bravo! :thumbsup:
I'm a bit out of shape since completing LEL and the return leg on a 200 can be a bit iffy, but I don't have a problem riding the first 100km fasted before lunch.
My point being, those who know me know that I'm no athlete — I may be front of the mid-pack but no better than that. Zigzag is an awful lot quicker. Yet we agree on this. I do believe there's a lot of bad info going around about having to carb-up and consume lots of carbs on rides — only if you're at the pointy end and going for a time; the rest of us it's just about pacing and fat burn.
Add in a decent arrivée and I don't eat in the last 30-90 minutes on the basis I'll enjoy the organiser's offerings more :thumbsup:
ps. I should add that most of my rides are solo DIYs, scouting out new routes and checking existing ones, so I don't stop for long.
pps. why are we talking about this on a thread relating to entry fees?
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I understand X to be "little or no controllers or facilities" which means riders make their own arrangements at intermediate controls. If the organiser provides food and drink at the start and finish that should not be an X, so Wilkyboy's is an F IMO irrespective of the intermediate controls. In fact X should really refer to facilities. My 200 is X but starts and finishes in 'spoons so you get facilities you just have to pay for them. The fee above the bare minimum is to pay for my travel and accommodation up there as I'm not local (sometimes twice in order to check the route but that's a cheap day return)
this all makes perfect sense, from the Organiser's Handbook
If you’re providing facilities such as food and accommodation with your event you will have to choose
whether to price these within your entry fee or not. An all-inclusive “no extras” will give you a higher entry
fee, but frees up volunteers from having to collect money on the day; and also provides a measure of
budgeting stability as all your money will be paid up front.
Whatever you do, make it clear to prospective entrants what they’re getting for the entry fee – an important
part of rider satisfaction is perceived value for money and events with excessive entry fees will gain a bad
reputation.
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I understand X to be "little or no controllers or facilities" which means riders make their own arrangements at intermediate controls. If the organiser provides food and drink at the start and finish that should not be an X, so Wilkyboy's is an F IMO irrespective of the intermediate controls. In fact X should really refer to facilities. My 200 is X but starts and finishes in 'spoons so you get facilities you just have to pay for them. The fee above the bare minimum is to pay for my travel and accommodation up there as I'm not local (sometimes twice in order to check the route but that's a cheap day return)
this all makes perfect sense, from the Organiser's Handbook
If you’re providing facilities such as food and accommodation with your event you will have to choose
whether to price these within your entry fee or not. An all-inclusive “no extras” will give you a higher entry
fee, but frees up volunteers from having to collect money on the day; and also provides a measure of
budgeting stability as all your money will be paid up front.
Whatever you do, make it clear to prospective entrants what they’re getting for the entry fee – an important
part of rider satisfaction is perceived value for money and events with excessive entry fees will gain a bad
reputation.
"R" surely? "R" is for food at start/finish, "F" is for food out on the course somewheres.
And I'm not sure the handbook is always particularly clear — there are a lot of details of being an organiser that are not explained in anything like adequate detail in the handbook, but I have a knowledgeable friend/mentor who I turn to for advice.
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sorry yes R; odd that you can have free food on route but only "free or reasonably priced" at the start and finish according to the letter code ???
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pps. why are we talking about this on a thread relating to entry fees?
Maybe this boast.....
200 doesn't demand a lot of food intake - i did one today on three bananas and a bottle of energy drink
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pps. why are we talking about this on a thread relating to entry fees?
Maybe this boast.....
200 doesn't demand a lot of food intake - i did one today on three bananas and a bottle of energy drink
Ah, yes, lost up-thread somewhere. I don't think I'd consume either — bananas are mush by the time I get to eat them and energy drinks are the devil's own pish.
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I spent the past year riding the first 100km on every ride fasted — no breakfast and nothing to eat on the ride.
And as if to mock me, I just came across this here in this article (https://www.outsideonline.com/2248191/secret-cycling-bliss):
For example, did you know there's something called "fasted riding?" It's true. The idea is that if you head out on an early empty stomach in the morning, you will improve your fat-burning metabolism. Incredibly people consider this a training technique, when it is in fact quite clearly an eating disorder.
;D
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pps. why are we talking about this on a thread relating to entry fees?
Maybe this boast.....
200 doesn't demand a lot of food intake - i did one today on three bananas and a bottle of energy drink
:D
maybe. i was just sharing that for me (as well as for quite a lot of riders i know) it is not necessary to stuff my face at every control in order to keep going. it relates to the op that some of the costs of the event can be reduced by considering your nutrition. this is one of the areas where costs can be lowered, as the entry fees are at the feasible minimum already.
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I spent the past year riding the first 100km on every ride fasted — no breakfast and nothing to eat on the ride.
And as if to mock me, I just came across this here in this article (https://www.outsideonline.com/2248191/secret-cycling-bliss):
For example, did you know there's something called "fasted riding?" It's true. The idea is that if you head out on an early empty stomach in the morning, you will improve your fat-burning metabolism. Incredibly people consider this a training technique, when it is in fact quite clearly an eating disorder.
;D
I resemble that remark. I don't do breakfast. It's probably an eating disorder. And when I'm not horrendously unfit I can ride 100km without food. The second 100km is another matter.
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I can ride 100k without food - especially if it's for food.
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pps. why are we talking about this on a thread relating to entry fees?
I suspect it was my post that diverted the thread - but I really didn't intend it to lead down the path it has taken. Honest!
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Likewise - I quite often do the first 100k fasted but after that I need to eat something every 50-80k.
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Um! Why were the fees paid into an account controlled by AUK if LEL was a separate company? ???
Complete misunderstanding here .. entries were paid into a LEL paypal account .. which Paypal locked .. leaving us with no access to cash to run an event for 1000 entries. Separate legal advice needed as we are joint owners.. so I on my own could not just remortgage for an extra £250,000.
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I spent the past year riding the first 100km on every ride fasted — no breakfast and nothing to eat on the ride.
And as if to mock me, I just came across this here in this article (https://www.outsideonline.com/2248191/secret-cycling-bliss):
For example, did you know there's something called "fasted riding?" It's true. The idea is that if you head out on an early empty stomach in the morning, you will improve your fat-burning metabolism. Incredibly people consider this a training technique, when it is in fact quite clearly an eating disorder.
;D
Some interesting reading further down on that site, particularly to do with riding to the ride instead of driving. Something I have always done for the club ride while I see others driving less than 10 miles at either end. But I really need to take this into my audax. Although 70 miles each way extra might be too extreme.
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And as if to mock me, I just came across this here in this article (https://www.outsideonline.com/2248191/secret-cycling-bliss):
Some interesting reading further down on that site, particularly to do with riding to the ride instead of driving. …
In case you didn’t realise, Eben Weiss is the guy behind Bike Snob NYC. He’s often a pretty good read.
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Even more OT, but ...
It pleases me to see that 35kph is almost exactly the speed required to complete PBP in 35 hours.
Thank you for this timely anecdote Matthew :thumbsup:
We need more of these . A lot more.