Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Further and Faster => Topic started by: DrMekon on 22 May, 2016, 08:08:27 am
-
Doing Mille Pennines in July, riding with mates who are usually first home on anything on two wheels. Wanted not to be the old man slowing everyone up so...
Between
1. Got my weight down to 70kg (I'm 188cm), partly by cutting out lots of dairy and using a non-nutritive sweetener (stevia based - truvia)
2. Doubled the amount of cycling I've done compared to previous years
3. Had a hernia operation in January
4. Got my weight down to 67kg (and then because of ill health it briefly dropped to 64, which was scary - lots of people with my lung condition struggle to keep weight on).
5. Added soy protein isolate and BCAAs to my diet in an effort to recover more quickly
-- felt pretty grim, but got around the Heartbeat 400 okay
6. Feel rotten - like someone has come at me with hammers. People commenting on ill I look, how slowly I'm walking, pulling me aside in meetings to ask if I'm okay.
Have tried... physio... sports massage... cutting out sweetener... swapped soy protein for whey...
I'm taking a couple of days off the bike, and will take at least three off before Three Steps to Severn 600... which is next weekend. Slept nearly 13hrs yesterday after what was an uneventful day. Resting heartrate is normal, lungs normal.
Tell me I'm going to feel better soon with a little rest. Or tell me what the magic bullet is please. I'm sick of feeling ragged.
-
What's your food diary for the last week?
-
First guess is overtraining. Back your riding right off, is my advice. Think hard about next weekend's 600. Eat more and sleep lots.
Blood test seems prudent but I have no idea of the specifics.
-
There ain't no magic bullet. Metabolism is far more complex than any second-guessing we can come up with, and "we" includes dieticians. The one in whose hands I was placed after being stented in 2008 succeeded in wasting away my muscles and making me look like a skeleton. Climbing hills was torture and everyone I met asked me if I was ill. It was only after I threw away the rule book that I returned to normal and started riding like a cyclist instead of a corpse.
-
Blood tests as soon as possible. I have a condition for which there is a magic bullet, but taking so long to get it diagnosed led to several others that have taken years to recover from.
ETA: Actually, it's probably worth mentioning B12 deficiency or pernicious anaemia as it seems it is frequently missed when it is at the root of problems. Several people I now know of have been at the stage of unpleasant biopsies and a plethora of tests for increasingly distressing diseases before a B12 problem has been identified as the cause.
-
Yes - blood tests is what the person who looked at my (admittedly dumb, no heart rate variability measure) resting heartrate suggested. Will make a GP appt. Previous bloods pre-op showed anemia. I've had them looked at and there was nothing weird, but that was before I started feeling broken.
In terms of diet.. I'm vegetarian. Lots of salads, quorn, tofu, beetroot, vegetables, seeds. Macros look pretty standard (60% carbs, 30% fat, 20% protein is goal. Lately protein has gone up at expense of carbs.
One weird thing is that I feel fine on hills - and can actually get my heart rate up in the 130s - 140s. It's the flats that kill me. My legs don't want to spin. Usually, i don't have any trouble getting my heart up in to the high 170s, low 180s if i'm chasing someone.
I'll think carefully about the 600 - might take the week off the bike and see how I feel.
-
I'll think carefully about the 600 - might take the week off the bike and see how I feel.
That's what I'd do. I'm not you but rest makes you stronger not exercise
-
Thanks - I find rest hard, but Steve A's description of the need for rest for adaptation rings true albeit at an infinitesimally small level compared to his. I've felt like I'm grinding to a halt, not getting fitter.
-
While I was nearly at my worst - barely able to walk on many days - I was a terror on the track and as long as it was a hard effort I could put in the miles on the road. Anything moderate absolutely destroyed me. Work had to be all out as well - that is until I came to a complete, terrifying, disfunctional halt.
-
For what little it is worth, overtraining has much the same effect. No matter what, the body just does not respond properly.
I found that there was only a limited time that I could stay near my lowest racing weight before I started to fall apart (peaking early vs. peaking late in the season). If something similar is happening to you, there may be just enough time to bounce back for the Mille.
All of this is pure speculation of course, based on no tangible evidence at all.
-
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160522/8da538dcc9837e92ea32ead98856f027.jpg)
Ha! That's what Garmin thinks of me resting.
Certainly, I do need to be careful with my diet given I'm a veggie that avoids dairy.
So, off the bike as much as possible this week, and let the weekend's 600 slip by if necessary. Hope for the best for MilleP.
Will try to get appt with GPs.
I do recognise what Ben describes. Using stress at work to keep going. I noticed I've been adding double espressos to my double espressos and feeling no effect. It's a worry when the barista suggests you might have had enough.
-
Undiagnosed glutenist?
-
I think the most likely thing is overtraining. You've been doing a lot.
I had this in 2010. Rode 4x600k, several 300s and 200s and the Mille Cymru. I had basically three weeks off the bike before the MC and that got me round but I wasn't right after that until the following February when I did a PB on the rowing machine.
I'm in need of some recovery too and as I'm racing next weekend after today it's going to be an easy week.
-
It's a shame you're a bloke- being a lady I get good warning I'm overtraining in that my periods stop.
I have read that overtraining isn't a good description - it's under-recovery. Your caffeine intake can't be helping with that.
-
Macros look pretty standard (60% carbs, 30% fat, 20% protein is goal. Lately protein has gone up at expense of carbs.
Is that what's called giving it 110%? ;) ;D
My unscientific gut feeling is you need more food, more rest and a gentle build-up.
I'd think twice about doing a very long ride.
-
Lol. I blame Garmin. Apparently I'm over my macro goals for each of them.
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
-
It's a shame you're a bloke- being a lady I get good warning I'm overtraining in that my periods stop.
I have read that overtraining isn't a good description - it's under-recovery. Your caffeine intake can't be helping with that.
Caffeine for sure. Plus occasional prednisolone and a boy with autismy behaviour who wakes me up several times a night.
-
Your whole lifestyle – artificial diet, weighing your food, taking various drugs to get by, apps to track your movement, posting from your SM-G935F using Tapatalk – sounds like hell to me. We are not made to live like that. Many people do live like that these days, but I have yet to meet someone who lived like that who wasn’t also deeply miserable.
-
Please Jesus, show me the way.
-
You’ve mixed me up with someone else there. I’m just suggesting a more natural lifestyle is likelier to work than a series of artificial gimmicks, each rectifying problems caused by the last.
Not saying it’s easy. It requires deliberate effort even in countries like France (where I live, though I’m British), where the culture better supports living well.
-
FWIW, and based on knowing nothing about you other than your posts on here, I get the impression you're always pushing yourself pretty hard, so my first thought would be overtraining.
-
It might be worth tracking your Heart Rate Variability. Several apps. Best I think is HRV4Training which has a couple of science geeks behind it and seems pretty solid.
-
It might be worth tracking your Heart Rate Variability. Several apps. Best I think is HRV4Training which has a couple of science geeks behind it and seems pretty solid.
iPhone only :(
-
It might be worth tracking your Heart Rate Variability. Several apps. Best I think is HRV4Training which has a couple of science geeks behind it and seems pretty solid.
This is what the person who looked at my RHR wanted. We've got umpteen different monitors at work, so will see if I can get a lend tomorrow.
-
It might be worth tracking your Heart Rate Variability. Several apps. Best I think is HRV4Training which has a couple of science geeks behind it and seems pretty solid.
This is what the person who looked at my RHR wanted. We've got umpteen different monitors at work, so will see if I can get a lend tomorrow.
Looks like you have a Samsung phone. The S-Health app has a "Stress" monitor, which is based on HRV. I use http://www.selfloops.com/products/heart-rate-variability.html (http://www.selfloops.com/products/heart-rate-variability.html) but it's a PITA as it needs a strap (won't work with the camera-based HRM).
-
I've always been a bit dubious about using the phone camera. I've got a strap, so might be tempted to try it out.
-
I've tried the s health app, and have sent an email around to a couple of friendly sensor people to see if they have some kit I can play with.
If all else fails, I'll dig up some old Floyd on France episodes on YouTube and see if it rubs off.
-
If all else fails, I'll dig up some old Floyd on France episodes on YouTube and see if it rubs off.
Now you’re talking. A glass of wine at lunchtime goes a long way to complete happiness.
-
HRV seems to be one of those things where variability is important. You probably need to do it for a few weeks but a rising HRV on waking seems to be the aim. Must be done immediately you wake up for best results. You could try sleeping with a Bluetooth HR strap?
-
I'm trying out that app. rMSSD was 61 this morning, using the Wahoo TickRX strap. Will be a few days before I have a baseline.
-
My rMSSD has been increasing throughout this year - started around 22 in January and was 72 this morning. I'm led to believe this is a good thing - but really I don't know; interpreting results seems to be statistical fu.
Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk
-
my personal view is that there are things in your diet that i would not consume (only in emergency, perhaps) - powders, sweeteners etc. i like the food as it comes from the nature and with minimal processing. i'm an advocate of the balanced diet, broad range of food in moderation, preferably organic (junk food doesn't count as food). sleep is very important for recovery, my sleep quality has improved after i stopped drinking coffee. drinking 2-4l of water a day is important too. i hope you feel better soon doc! :)
-
Well, I'm feeling better, but pulling one thing out of it would be hard.
1. Not ridden my bike for 6 days
2. Not added any sweetener to food
3. Swapped soy protein supplement for whey
4. Slept a lot (average sleep for the last 7 days up to 7h55m).
I feel pretty good about doing Three Steps to Severn at the weekend. I've really wanted to get on my bike again for a couple of days, which is a good sign. All being well, I'll be riding at the weekend.
-
I've really wanted to get on my bike again for a couple of days, which is a good sign.
A really good sign! All the best Dr M., and keep taking care of yourself.
(All too often, the less I ride, the less I'm eager to ride.)
-
Aaah... the 'Bouncing like Tigger' state that I can't define but does signify recovery.
Hooray! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
-
I think it's because he had a full fat breakfast ;)
-
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160525/64077d99a5863e91ed3d0ecf6ca9cfd2.jpg)
Truth.
-
If all else fails, I'll dig up some old Floyd on France episodes on YouTube and see if it rubs off.
Now you’re talking. A glass of wine at lunchtime goes a long way to complete happiness.
Not if one's already on Chlorpromazine.
-
Thanks - I find rest hard, but Steve A's description of the need for rest for adaptation rings true albeit at an infinitesimally small level compared to his. I've felt like I'm grinding to a halt, not getting fitter.
Comparing yourself to others and thinking you should be doing more, when YOU should be doing less is an easy trap to fall into IMO. My daily mileages last year were small beer to what I can do on a standalone day. I was never riding hard, because I wasn't able to and even if I was, one hard day when I had to keep going for a year would have been overdoing it.
Likewise, I've started training with a coach. My training is based on my limits, not my expectations nor what other athletes are capable of. Also what I do is based on the current situation.
I abandoned my training ride on Sunday because my power output fell below what I was aiming for and I felt off. I eased right off and groveled to the nearest town, where I threw up, then checked into a hotel. I could have ridden home but it would have been very tough and done a lot of damage that would have taken a long time to recover from. It wouldn't have been any benefit to my fitness. I would have done if I had a job to go to, then spent the rest of the week recovering. What I did was to rest up ASAP and recover as fast as possible so that I could resume training. The following day, I was scheduled for a rest day anyway so I took that, then the next day I got straight back onto my schedule and did a good day, considering I couldn't prepare for it as well as if I were at home.
I also cut last night's ride short. I did a turbo session in the morning and did the toughest option my coach gave me. I could have done my full ride last night, but it could very well have been to the detriment of today's ride. I may even still have to take the easy option today because I am still tired from the turbo session, then I have a rest day on Friday. If I find today easy, then I know to go a bit harder next time. I'm still tired and will need a recovery day, so I'm still getting ahead. Riding hard too much just sends you backwards. As Michael Hutchinson once said, make your hard days hard and your easy days easy otherwise it all becomes a constant mid range effort and has a lesser effect. Doing the easy days is often the hardest thing.
I like what FBOAB said about there not being overtraining, more a case of under recovery. Its the recovery that gets you fit. If you're unable to meet the target, then it's probably because you've done enough already.
The other saying I've heard is that anyone can train like a pro, but we can't recover like a pro.
-
This may be stating the obvious, but if you are finding it harder on the flat now it suggests that some of your weight loss has been muscle and you have lost power ( although your overall weight loss has been enough to increase your power to weight ratio, hence the improvement on hills)
-
Being a lower mass for the same frontal area, air resistance is having an easier job of slowing you down.
-
Being a lower mass for the same frontal area, air resistance is having an easier job of slowing you down.
Indeed; kites vs bombs innit?
Dr Mekon is a kite and getting more kite-like.
-
Thanks - I find rest hard, but Steve A's description of the need for rest for adaptation rings true albeit at an infinitesimally small level compared to his. I've felt like I'm grinding to a halt, not getting fitter.
Comparing yourself to others and thinking you should be doing more, when YOU should be doing less is an easy trap to fall into IMO. My daily mileages last year were small beer to what I can do on a standalone day. I was never riding hard, because I wasn't able to and even if I was, one hard day when I had to keep going for a year would have been overdoing it.
Likewise, I've started training with a coach. My training is based on my limits, not my expectations nor what other athletes are capable of. Also what I do is based on the current situation.
I abandoned my training ride on Sunday because my power output fell below what I was aiming for and I felt off. I eased right off and groveled to the nearest town, where I threw up, then checked into a hotel. I could have ridden home but it would have been very tough and done a lot of damage that would have taken a long time to recover from. It wouldn't have been any benefit to my fitness. I would have done if I had a job to go to, then spent the rest of the week recovering. What I did was to rest up ASAP and recover as fast as possible so that I could resume training. The following day, I was scheduled for a rest day anyway so I took that, then the next day I got straight back onto my schedule and did a good day, considering I couldn't prepare for it as well as if I were at home.
I also cut last night's ride short. I did a turbo session in the morning and did the toughest option my coach gave me. I could have done my full ride last night, but it could very well have been to the detriment of today's ride. I may even still have to take the easy option today because I am still tired from the turbo session, then I have a rest day on Friday. If I find today easy, then I know to go a bit harder next time. I'm still tired and will need a recovery day, so I'm still getting ahead. Riding hard too much just sends you backwards. As Michael Hutchinson once said, make your hard days hard and your easy days easy otherwise it all becomes a constant mid range effort and has a lesser effect. Doing the easy days is often the hardest thing.
I like what FBOAB said about there not being overtraining, more a case of under recovery. Its the recovery that gets you fit. If you're unable to meet the target, then it's probably because you've done enough already.
The other saying I've heard is that anyone can train like a pro, but we can't recover like a pro.
Thank you for that reply - having taken 8 days off, my bounce has come back - it's lovely to want to be back on the bike again. I plan to try to be more variable in my efforts - and use a diary. Easy and hard. We'll see.
-
So, gastro problems solved, feel good. Heart rate happy to go up again. The big change - stopping taking omeprazole. I'm prescribed it because the mucolytic I'm on, as well as making my mouth incredibly sore, gives me rotten heartburn. I've had a week off and am using gaviscon as required. Going to see my consultant to if we can do anything different. The sore mouth is a pain, the heartburn is a pain, but the gastro problems are just impossible to deal with whilst riding a lot. Feel so much better, sore mouth and heartburn notwithstanding.
Wish I didn't need the drugs, but going from 6 chest infections a year, to ~1, and given I'm prone to complications, I suspect that long term, it'd be something I'd regret.
-
How long have you been on the Omeprazole? You reduce Vit B12 absorption with omeprazole and if you have been taking it for a few years then it would be worth having a VitB12 level done.
-
How long have you been on the Omeprazole? You reduce Vit B12 absorption with omeprazole and if you have been taking it for a few years then it would be worth having a VitB12 level done.
What Chris is trying to say is - "Eat you Marmite like a good boy." :D
-
A couple of years. Not had it checked, but am a habitual Marmite knife licker.
According to my pharmacist, my vit D levels should have been checked, and I should be prescribed something different to the OTC stuff.
According to various people, I should have had physio to be taught a breathing technique to clear my chest.
Additionally, I came back "Leeds anaemic".
Instead of any of this being raised at the last appointment, the chest clinic, which is more horrible than an early 90s benefits office, discharged me because they don't listen to their answer phone messages. I really hate going. The paeds CF clinic my kids go to is so much nicer.
Will arrange being rereferred tomorrow.
-
Doing Mille Pennines in July, riding with mates who are usually first home on anything on two wheels. Wanted not to be the old man slowing everyone up so...
late as usual BUT - is there any reason you have to ride with people who want to be the first ones back? - just pick a slower group to ride with (it works every time with me :-D).
-
I think this was his approach for the Three Steps to Severn.
-
Not at all. Thinking was "ooh that will make it fun. Fun plus stories, and certain to make it around". Had I known throwing your self at the ground was part of your repertoire, I may have reconsidered.
Also, you are quicker than me on the flat. My heart rate dropped on the hills. I suspect your FTP is higher than mine.
Trying to ride with fast people makes me more focused on looking after my health when I'm not riding. I did a season with a neighbour who didn't put the miles in and got slower. It made audax too trudgy for me, and I stopped trying/training.
-
I found out that my proton pump inhibitor also affects Magnesium absorption. Magnesium is mega- important in the energy process, so low magnesium could result in tiredness etc.
I use a transdermal magnesium spray ( by Better You), and have noticed improvement in my performance, and sleep.
-
Thanks for that. I will ring my GP now!
-
I found out that my proton pump inhibitor also affects Magnesium absorption. Magnesium is mega- important in the energy process, so low magnesium could result in tiredness etc.
I use a transdermal magnesium spray ( by Better You), and have noticed improvement in my performance, and sleep.
I use Better You magnesium oil spray to massage my aching legs. Magic.
-
might help to take a really good multivitamin every 2nd day. Best one that I have found is Solgar Omnium:
http://www.solgar.com/SolgarProducts/Omnium-Tablets.htm
they say one should take 2 tabs a day, but I think that 1 every 2nd day is good
some good reviews on amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Solgar-Phytonutrient-Complex-Multiple-Vitamin/dp/B000GJL6CG/188-6101734-3837562?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0#customerReviews
-
Having signed up to training peaks, then today's plan, then gotten a bit of coaching, looking back, my ramp rate coming back from hernia was ridiculous. I think I overtrained, and combined with the omep, I put myself in to a bad place.
Am trying to keep to 4-5 easy workouts, 2 hard workouts a week, with a sensible ramp rate and some periodisation built in. Read an interesting paper that referenced a study showing that cyclists tend to go too hard on easy workouts and too easy on hard ones. Will try to avoid that.
Am loving the way Today's Plan makes the workout files for Zwift. Getting a coach to help me with the annual stuff and periodisation, but just to look over the workouts I'm doing and give tips retrospectively will hopefully be a way to keep me engaged with the process (can't imaging handing over responsibility) whilst providing some oversight. I want to plan my own workouts (so I understand them) and fit them around work / home, but I want reassurance I'm not barking up the wrong tree, and someone willing to cast an eye over what I'm up to. Chap helping me has done 24hr TT and transcon, and already does my bike fit and blood lactate.