Author Topic: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM  (Read 9253 times)

whosatthewheel

AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« on: 20 January, 2018, 03:48:41 pm »
The data that I found most striking in the report are the number of memberships, broadly gone up 60% over the past decade, against the number of organised events, which is broadly the same as ten years ago. What has increased is the number of permanent and DIY rides. So a lot more km, but not very sociable ones!

That to me is very indicative of a "vocational crisis" in organisers. A lot of new members but not enough new organisers to keep up with the demand. The net result is that the very few TLC events get full in days when not hours. I think AUK should invest in helping organisers, otherwise fast forward another ten years and it will be mostly perms and DIY, which would be a bit sad.

I, for one, would like to organise an event, but I wouldn't know where to start and wouldn't want to put money upfront and then have 10 people showing up on the day

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #1 on: 20 January, 2018, 03:51:52 pm »
The average number of riders per calendar event has noticeably increased over that time.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #2 on: 20 January, 2018, 04:23:27 pm »
The data that I found most striking in the report are the number of memberships, broadly gone up 60% over the past decade, against the number of organised events, which is broadly the same as ten years ago. What has increased is the number of permanent and DIY rides. So a lot more km, but not very sociable ones!


As LWaB says, there's been a growth in numbers on a lot of calendar events, while the growth in DIYs is largely following the introduction of DIY by GPS, so probably additional rides rather than cannibalising calendar events.

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That to me is very indicative of a "vocational crisis" in organisers. A lot of new members but not enough new organisers to keep up with the demand. The net result is that the very few TLC events get full in days when not hours. I think AUK should invest in helping organisers, otherwise fast forward another ten years and it will be mostly perms and DIY, which would be a bit sad.


I'm not sure about crisis, but yes, more organisers and more events would be good, and the new site is intended to offer better support for them. The constancy of the headline figure (500-550 events annually) conceals the fact there's 20-25% churn in events, albeit some of this is down to organisers who rotate through a range of events from year to year.

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I, for one, would like to organise an event, but I wouldn't know where to start and wouldn't want to put money upfront and then have 10 people showing up on the day

I'd start by talking to organisers who put on events you've liked, maybe helping at a couple of rides, and talking to your regional events delegate. An X-rated event with a pub or cafe finish needn't involve any upfront cost, and could be quite sociable - certainly that's what I currently have half planned on the back burner.

The HowTo page on the AUK website and the Organisers' Handbook give useful information too.

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #3 on: 20 January, 2018, 04:41:16 pm »
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I, for one, would like to organise an event, but I wouldn't know where to start and wouldn't want to put money upfront and then have 10 people showing up on the day

Is it possible that the system of running/organising brevets in the UK is the meat of the problem? Why does it require 'money up front'? I know that there clearly are variances country to country, but if brevet organisers were not by tradition expected to provide food and other support, wouldn't there be absolutely no outlay?

For perms and brevets that I organise, I provide no more than a route sheet and card, and that is that.

So, then the question becomes, do the excess of riders for BRM's in the UK ride because there are goodies given out and absent that would there be as many riders and since those riders now expect the giveaways, would the absence of them deter riders from riding?

With so much money sitting in the bank, if AUK actually funded brevets, would that ease the problem for organisers and encourage more organisers to step up?

whosatthewheel

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #4 on: 20 January, 2018, 04:56:19 pm »


Is it possible that the system of running/organising brevets in the UK is the meat of the problem? Why does it require 'money up front'? I know that there clearly are variances country to country, but if brevet organisers were not by tradition expected to provide food and other support, wouldn't there be absolutely no outlay?



True, but I would want to go the extra mile, provide food and all of that... it's what makes an event a bit special. I have no desire to simply provide a route card and stamp it at the end.

That is especially true when the route is not exactly as scenic as a "Tour of the Lake passes" or a "Snowdonia express". I did enjoy the events I did round here which had a bit of TLC...

For instance Avon and Nene: breakfast included, reasonably priced beans on toast half way (figure of 8) and free food at the end.
A Cotswolds Adventure: free breakfast, cakes at the first control and sandwiches/soup at the end
Autumn Rivers: Breakfast and a great chili con carne at the end

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #5 on: 20 January, 2018, 05:13:41 pm »
I don't judge any event by what is or isn't offered at controls.  I want a route that 'goes somewhere' and has a minimum of controls.  Somewhere scenic/interesting is a bonus.

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #6 on: 20 January, 2018, 05:18:45 pm »
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I don't judge any event by what is or isn't offered at controls.  I want a route that 'goes somewhere' and has a minimum of controls.  Somewhere scenic/interesting is a bonus.

The issue - apparently - is the increasing number of riders wanting to do brevets and the decreasing number of members wanting (the expense) of organising one. Where the brevet goes will not mean much if the ride doesn't occur.

whosatthewheel

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #7 on: 20 January, 2018, 05:25:37 pm »
I don't judge any event by what is or isn't offered at controls.  I want a route that 'goes somewhere' and has a minimum of controls.  Somewhere scenic/interesting is a bonus.

That is you... I, instead, like a bit of extras... unless the route is so magnificent that I don't really care. With the exception of July, when the lavender fields are in bloom at Snowshill, it's hard to find "magnificence" round here... there are good routes and dull routes, but nothing spectacular (by my standards at least)

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #8 on: 20 January, 2018, 05:48:58 pm »
There are some events in the barer areas on that map, but they mostly attract small numbers.  Events that start near centres of population tend to do well, followed by those that have easy access to the start.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #9 on: 20 January, 2018, 06:28:52 pm »
Being a slow, full-value, female member, I appreciated rides that provided food, rest, toilets and shelter at strategic intervals, sometimes in places where there were no cafés or commercial outlets.
A village hall might be a suitable control venue but needs to be booked and paid for in advance.

This needs organisation and money.

Borderline hypothermia is no fun!

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #10 on: 20 January, 2018, 06:39:36 pm »
The Kernow & Southwest 600 required the hire of 3 halls, and a number of volunteers.  It became too much of a faff to organise, hence it's 'resting'.

All my other events are either from my house and use commercial controls, or from a town and are X-rated (though I take care that nominated control places have suitable facilities).

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #11 on: 20 January, 2018, 09:48:07 pm »
Is it possible that the system of running/organising brevets in the UK is the meat of the problem? Why does it require 'money up front'? I know that there clearly are variances country to country, but if brevet organisers were not by tradition expected to provide food and other support, wouldn't there be absolutely no outlay?

For perms and brevets that I organise, I provide no more than a route sheet and card, and that is that.

So, then the question becomes, do the excess of riders for BRM's in the UK ride because there are goodies given out and absent that would there be as many riders and since those riders now expect the giveaways, would the absence of them deter riders from riding?

Obviously I am no great expert on this, having ridden (I think) a grand total of 5 calendar BP events but is the bold above actually true?  The calendar events I have ridden used commercial controls and the only giveaway was the brevet card* and from my reading of many a ride report over the years, isn't this what happens on the majority of brevets?

I have turned up on the route of the M&W 400 a few times with a pannier full of cake for anyone in the field who wanted some... I s'pose that could count as goodies given out.  Of course, the organiser has nowt to do with it and most of the field weren't expecting it.

*or not, in the case of the last one I rode, for which the cards never showed up for me or the Cubs, and nor did the (paid for in addition) SmallestCub's first and last finisher's medal

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #12 on: 20 January, 2018, 09:57:50 pm »
Sometimes food is included in the entry fees, sometimes there's a charge for food.
Fiddling around with cash is labour-intensive so some organisers avoid this.
Hiring a hall to use as a control and NOT feeding/watering riders would be a waste of pricy facilities and riders' time, as well as seeming unfriendly.

Controllers need sustenance too and would feel uncomfortable eating if there were no food for riders.

Bairn Again

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #13 on: 20 January, 2018, 11:27:46 pm »
Being a slow, full-value, female member, I appreciated rides that provided food, rest, toilets and shelter at strategic intervals, sometimes in places where there were no cafés or commercial outlets.
A village hall might be a suitable control venue but needs to be booked and paid for in advance.

This needs organisation and money.

Borderline hypothermia is no fun!
my experience from booking village halls as an organiser - maybe around 50 times over the last decade - is that they rarely if ever demand full payment up front, or even a deposit.

Its more common to pay in full on the day of the event on collection of they key.  Key holders / treasurers are very trusting when they know its for cyclists. 

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #14 on: 21 January, 2018, 12:41:57 am »
Being a slow, full-value, female member, I appreciated rides that provided food, rest, toilets and shelter at strategic intervals, sometimes in places where there were no cafés or commercial outlets.
A village hall might be a suitable control venue but needs to be booked and paid for in advance.

This needs organisation and money.

Borderline hypothermia is no fun!
my experience from booking village halls as an organiser - maybe around 50 times over the last decade - is that they rarely if ever demand full payment up front, or even a deposit.

Its more common to pay in full on the day of the event on collection of they key.  Key holders / treasurers are very trusting when they know its for cyclists.

That's nice to know!

Obviously LEL is a rather larger animal but I'm fairly certain that upfront payment was needed by some venues...

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #15 on: 21 January, 2018, 08:51:27 am »
Back on-topic, Room 101 is a short bicycle ride from home.  Is it worth attending this AGM thingy?

Oh, I think you should come.  We'd love to see you.  We might even get you a coffee.  If past experiences is anything to go by we might even end up in the nearby Wetherspoons.

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

  • Miles eaten don't satisfy hunger
  • Chartered accountant in 5 different decades
    • CET Ride Reports and Blogs
Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #16 on: 21 January, 2018, 09:26:09 am »
There was a discussion a while back about capturing those who were happy to volunteer for the occasional event.  I'm not up to extending my organisational scope beyond the current permanent series that I do, but I'd be happy to help run a kitchen.  The good thing about calendar events is they're planned well in advance so commitments can be factored into other calendars (work, family, etc).

But I suspect its the dearth of people who will be the main organiser that's the problem rather than the number of volunteers.
Eddington Numbers 130 (imperial), 182 (metric) 571 (furlongs)  114 (nautical miles)

slohill

  • still at it
Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #17 on: 21 January, 2018, 10:41:52 am »
Being a slow, full-value, female member, I appreciated rides that provided food, rest, toilets and shelter at strategic intervals, sometimes in places where there were no cafés or commercial outlets.
A village hall might be a suitable control venue but needs to be booked and paid for in advance.

This needs organisation and money.

Borderline hypothermia is no fun!
my experience from booking village halls as an organiser - maybe around 50 times over the last decade - is that they rarely if ever demand full payment up front, or even a deposit.

Its more common to pay in full on the day of the event on collection of they key.  Key holders / treasurers are very trusting when they know its for cyclists.

It is possible to organise events based on cafes'hotels/pubs who want no payment upfront---but welcome the additional trade.  You can have fun riding out to find which cafes etc are suitable.  ATMs are a great help now for proof of passage so you can say eg  "Ellesmere. Control.  Cafes and ATMs" which I find works well.
Start small,  build up and gain experience of what works.
My rides include a small sum in the (very low)entry fee for a free brew at the start so that the host is guaranteed some payment.
Organiser of  Tour of the Berwyns 200k and Panorama Prospect 130k; Saturday May 20 2023

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #18 on: 21 January, 2018, 12:34:02 pm »
There was a discussion a while back about capturing those who were happy to volunteer for the occasional event.


There are a couple of notions floating around about how to do this, whether through the new website or separately, but nothing concrete yet. I think at the moment it tends to be managed either by organisers asking existing contacts or through, say, club mailing lists, which doesn't really bring in new folk.

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But I suspect its the dearth of people who will be the main organiser that's the problem rather than the number of volunteers.

It would be interesting to know whether the issue is people who've never thought about it, but could easily be persuaded to consider it, or people who have thought about it, but then foundered either through lack of information/knowing where to start, or because they've run into difficulties.

whosatthewheel

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #19 on: 21 January, 2018, 01:19:26 pm »

It would be interesting to know whether the issue is people who've never thought about it, but could easily be persuaded to consider it, or people who have thought about it, but then foundered either through lack of information/knowing where to start, or because they've run into difficulties.

I did read about it and I was discouraged by the AUK advice (reading between the lines) to seek backing from a cycling club. I've never been keen on cycling clubs... the politics, the number of folks who seem to be completely unable to cycle in a group and always have to knock someone down on every sunday ride, the infinite number of punctures that plague the said rides, etc...
I think if the portal sounded a bit more enthusiastic about individual organisers, maybe more people would give it a go.

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #20 on: 21 January, 2018, 02:04:19 pm »
I've never been keen on cycling clubs... the politics, the number of folks who seem to be completely unable to cycle in a group and always have to knock someone down on every sunday ride, the infinite number of punctures that plague the said rides, etc...


Sounds more like some CTC groups I know than any club.

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #21 on: 21 January, 2018, 02:50:29 pm »
I did read about it and I was discouraged by the AUK advice (reading between the lines) to seek backing from a cycling club.
[...]
I think if the portal sounded a bit more enthusiastic about individual organisers, maybe more people would give it a go.

That's worth bearing in mind - thanks.

I think it's advice that can cheerfully be ignored though - there are plenty of individual organisers without club affiliation, and others where the rest of the club is invisible on the event.

I suspect (without tangible evidence) that it's intended to discourage prospective organisers who have absolutely no grounding in events or cycling, as well as trying to attract people who may have the backing of a club (and therefore the possibility of tapping into volunteers). I also suspect it harks back to a time when most cyclists were affiliated to a club or a CTC section.

Now though, while the Events Sec might look askance at someone who, from cold, fancied running one of these audax thingies, he'll almost certainly welcome an approach from a rider who has done enough events to know what others will expect and appreciate from a route and from controls.

(There are also a few events that are run by community groups with no other knowledge of cycling, which I believe go quite well - club affiliation is definitely a flexible requirement.)

Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #22 on: 21 January, 2018, 10:55:00 pm »
A quick random thought .. IF we have a problem that some new organisers are put off by the thought that they could lose money .. thru up front costs not covered by the riders entry fees .. then AUK could easily take and publish a Board decision .. that any new calendar organiser will be supported by a single donation of say £100.( and given the hours that have to be put in to get an event running for the first time, minimal reward for their efforts  if the event is a financial success anyway )  ...... Peanuts to AUK given the £300,000 sitting in the bank doing nothing.

Or how about rewarding all our calendar organisers by having a "Thank You Pot" each year .. say £20,000 in it .. so still leaving AUK an annual surplus .. to be divided between calendar organisers at year end based on number of events they put on .. so with about 500 rides that is an extra £40 per ride as a thank you for their efforts.

there must be lots of ways of using some of the massive lump of cash doing nothing to recognise the efforts of the volunteer organisers with out whom calendar rides just would not happen.... needs somebody to think constructively  . rather than continuing to do the same this year as we did last year.
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #23 on: 22 January, 2018, 12:36:51 am »
A quick random thought .. IF we have a problem that some new organisers are put off by the thought that they could lose money .. thru up front costs not covered by the riders entry fees ..

We don't do enough to publicise it, so I'll say it again here - AUK (or at least the Board) is happy to underwrite event costs.

Fairly obviously, you need to ask about it in advance, and it's subject to sanity-checking (that sounds so much friendlier than saying we'll ask for a business plan: we really mean we won't underwrite three halls and a four-course dinner for a 200 where you expect a dozen riders paying a tenner each ...), but we don't want to see organisers out of pocket through no fault of their own.


Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: AUK Event Logistics was Re: AUK AGM
« Reply #24 on: 22 January, 2018, 10:41:47 am »
I would suggest that it becomes a standing element of an early page in Arrivee.. all potential organisers would surely see it then.. and understand what they would need to do to if they were concerned about the possibility of a larger loss than they would be willing/able to fund themselves
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!