Weight Loss Discussion Thread

[Chris S]

Edit... You don't need to worry about me ignoring the feast side of things.. oh no, I most definitely don't ignore that.  It's called the Weekend.

Hehe. I probably should have elaborated! It's important to maximise nutrient density when you do eat; as you mentioned - real food, not processed muck. If you're properly thinking like a caveman, then eat the offal and throw the lean meat for the Hyenas. That's where I step off that particular wagon... 

[Greenbank]

(Watched the video, thanks for the link...)

I know, trust me on that.  I have a weight loss graph since 1997 that is a pure sine-wave.

Similar although the ramp back up always correlates with a drop off in exercise. Now, having watched that video I'm left wondering whether the drop off in exercise that contributes to this isn't itself caused by the lowered BMR that just makes me feel tired/lethargic after 6-8 months of sustained calorie deficit weight loss. Interesting.

I've always hoped that this would be last trip down the sine wave and I'd keep up the increased exercise and maintain the weight loss.

So I'm tempted by giving fasting a try along side a more normal weight loss plan (of just not being a greedy pig and trying to keep up the exercise) but wondering how easy it is to fit in with a reasonably heavy exercise routine.

What would you suggest for a weekly routine like this?

Mon: Day off work so between 9am and 3pm: 1h swim (high intensity), 3h cycle (medium to high intensity), eventually a 30min-1h run too
Tue: 50min-1h run (high intensity, intervals) during the day, very gentle afternoon swim whilst daughter having her lesson, late evening 5-a-side (high intensity for 40min) and then 2 pints in the pub
Wed: 30min swim (medium intensity) otherwise taking it easy (closest thing to a day off)
Thu: 30min cycle (medium intensity) in the morning, 5-a-side at 6pm (medium/high intensity for 1h), 6 pints in the pub
Fri: 10km run commute in the morning, 30min cycle (medium intensity) in the evening
Sat: 5km run (parkrun - med/high intensity) - no fasting on a Saturday as don't want to spoil social life!
Sun: long run (1h-2h peaking at 3h low/med intensity)

That adds up to:-
Swim: 1h+30min = 1h30
Footy: 40min + 1h = 1h40
Run: 1h+1h+30min+1h = 3h30 to 4h30 (sometimes 6h)
Cycle: 3h+30min+30min = 4h

It's rare that everything comes together for an uninterrupted week so it tends to total 8h or so.

Obvious fasting days I can see are:-
* Wednesday - a gentle-ish 30 minute swim is easy to do on an empty stomach
* Friday - I do the run commute on an empty stomach anyway, 30min cycle commute home in evening can be taken gently too
* Sunday - I can do morning runs up to half marathon (~2h) on an empty stomach (although I do carry a couple of gels in case) but not ideal as the rest of the day is family time

Wed/Fri would makes most sense as I can see it. From 11pm Tuesday to Thursday lunchtime is a good stretch. Then again for 11pm Thursday to Saturday post-parkrun.

I'd be interested in what kind of things you eat when fasting. I'm not a fan of nuts or dried fruit, but would be happy with a tin of soup every so often (Heinz Chicken Noodle soup is only 128kcal a tin for example.)

[LEE]

GB.  My Fasting hasn't had an impact on my exercise.  I was worried about "bonking" on a bike ride but I feel great, even 2 days into a Fast.

I think you need to accept you're burning fat and keep in Zone 2 or 3 max.  As long as I can hold a conversation then I reckon I can burn fat quickly enough to support that level of exercise, that's what I was doing whilst Audaxing (when I was burning far more calories than I had in my Carb stores - I think it's only about 2,500Kcals.  That's why once in a lifetime Charity Ride cyclists bonk so badly after about 40 miles in, they used up their 2,500kcals of carbs and just aren't able to switch into ketosis readily, they're totally empty).

I started off by fasting Monday all day until Tuesday lunchtime.  Then I'd do Thursday all day until Friday lunchtime.  After a couple of weeks I got to the point, on Tuesday for example, where I just thought, "I'm feeling fine, I'll just carry on until Wednesday".

Weekends are weekends and all bets are off (except you have a smaller appetite and don't want to ruin the good work).

The key thing is leaving the longest gap possible between meals (or insulin release) so eating a big meal on day 1 at 6pm and having "breakfast" at 1pm next day gave you a break of 19 hours and probably gives you a lot of benefits even though you ate "normally" and didn't truly fast.  I really like the feeling that I'm empty of Glycogen and running on fat, so 2 days assures me that it's happening.  exercise will burn through Glycogen even quicker and require less fasting before you hit the fat stores.

I'm not qualified to give any advice on the subject.  It's anecdotal and I should make that clear.  I'm only a few weeks into it but, for me, what Jason Fung says, makes total sense.

.....and I'm not hungry!!!

Edit.  I don't eat at all on Fast days.  It makes me much more hungry (to the point of pigging out) if I eat just a small amount of something.  I find it much easier to eat nothing, rather than torture myself with not enough of something delicious.

An advantage of true fasting is that it requires absolutely nothing in order to do it.  No special recipes, no weighing portions, no expense.  Just take a day or two off food and go service your bicycles to take your mind off it.  It gives you a surprising amount of extra time in your day.

[Chris S]

I've tried a few multi-day fasts: Day 2 is always the worst - if I'm going to be hungry, that'll be the day - day 3 is much easier.

Generally, I find the same as LEE; steady energy flow if you don't take the piss. I did take the piss last Friday, riding a brutal 25km stretch into the moors (720m climbing, frequent >15% gradients), day after finishing a 24 hour fast, and I was a mess; I had to have emergency food so I could get home.

[Chinaski]

If you can't reduce your weight by 2Kg a year then you may as well just call the whole thing off.

I can reduce my weight by much more than 2kg in a year. but as soon as something goes wrong in my life and stress or misery gets going, I gain it all back, with interest, and much faster than it's lost.

It just doesn't work like that.

I know, trust me on that.  I have a weight loss graph since 1997 that is a pure sine-wave.

The trouble is, with calorie-deficit diets, you suppress your metabolism, slowly and inexorably, until even your reduced calories are enough to maintain it.
Simultaneously your body goes into overtime with "hunger hormones" making you hungrier than you ever were, all day, every day.

That double whammy means that when you increase your calorie intake you pile on weight much quicker (due to your lower calorific needs) and you enter a hormone driven feeding frenzy.  It's not your fault...your hormones changed to make you eat..and eat

It's why Weight-watchers et al have a dismal long-term success rate (despite a good 3-6 month success rate*).
*Success shouldn't be based on 3-6 months.

I recognised this pattern in myself and have done much research into why it happens.  I'm now convinced that Fasting will help me.
I'm one month into it and 8kg down (1st 3lb).

There is so much bullshit talked about "Starvation mode" and "Muscle loss" but that mostly comes from the purveyors of food.  There's no profit in Fasting, it's a zero cost option.

Here's a summary of what I've learned so far:

- Fasting can be done for as long as you like and it has positive benefits over a 7-day reduced calorie regime.  1 day, 2 days a week (5:2), using 600kcals on your Fast days or nothing, even longer.

- It can be seen as a "miracle cure" for many people with Type 2 Diabetes (Where sufferers are propped up on Insulin supplements)
 
      - Consider Type 2 Diabetes.  It's a disease where the patient has become desensitised to Insulin, over long periods of being naturally "flooded" with Insulin to combat a sugary diet.  The "Cure" is to supplement the "flood" of natural insulin with externally administered Insulin.  Does that strike anyone as odd?  A disease of too much Insulin treated with more Insulin?
Fasting turns off (to a large degree) natural Insulin production.  It's not required, there's no sugar coming in (remember that Bread and Pasta = Carbs = Sugar, not just Coke and Mars Bars).
Fasting allows the body to become sensitive to Insulin again.
Anyway, see the Michael Moseley Youtube (and Jason Fung Youtubes) for a full description of why it works and considerations before trying it.

- I don't feel hungry.   Yes, that's weird.   I find that reduced calories or 600kcal Fasting just makes me crave more (there are hormonal reasons remember) so I just don't eat anything on Fasting days.

- I feel more active.  Yes, that's weird.  Reduced calories made me feel cold and lethargic.  There are hormonal reasons why Fasting makes you feel more active (Growth hormone is released, Adrenalin is released, brain activity goes up..etc).

    - Think about how we evolved rather than what we've done in the last 100 years (when food became ever more available).  We woke up in a cave, chased a Wildebeest across a plain for a few hours, then ate the f*** out of it when we finally caught it.  We're actually designed to burn fat not carbohydrate.  Carbs are just a short term luxury that (should) come along infrequently, not every 2 hours from the fridge.  When you're low on Wildebeest the body releases hormones to make you think clearer and perform better, in order to catch Wildebeest.  It doesn't slow you down when you haven't eaten Wildebeest for a few days, that would have been species suicide.

- It targets fat.  After the first day of Fasting you've used up your Carbs (Glycogen stores), there's only around 2,500kCals of it in your Liver and blood.  Once Glycogen is gone you enter Ketosis, where fat is metabolised as fuel (any Audax rider should have an efficient Ketosis system because carbs alone don't get you around a 400km ride.  I think Audax riders will find it less "painful" to Fast as their bodies will be used to Ketosis being switched on).

Anything you do from Day 2 onwards is (mostly) Fat-fuelled. 

I'm on another Day 2 right now.  The hunger is gone, I feel fine and I may try 3 or 4 days this time.  I did 3 last week and it was fine.  On the 3rd day I attended a high power Wattbike Class and went for a 30 mile ride.  I felt fine, nothing to worry about, I'm burning fat and I have shit loads left.

The best thing for me is that I don't crave food now and I don't feel cold.  Having zero food triggers the reverse hormonal effect as having reduced food.  Why would I want to eat just a little piece of Cake?  That's like giving up smoking except for one puff on a ciggy ....it's torture.

Caveat.  I'm in the early stages, the easy part.  I've been this weight before (but usually with the help of PBP preparation/qualification regime.  You can eat anything in PBP year and lose weight).  This is the first time I've lost weight so consistently without huge cycling miles.

Anyway I recommend you watch this (especially if Type 2 Diabetes is a concern).  It's a summary by Jason Fung.  There are many more of his lectures to link to.  I find them fascinating and motivational.
We've all been fed such bullshit by the food companies and the diet industry.

Please watch before coming back with comments based on Old-Wives tales though.

>>>>  https://youtu.be/ETkwZIi3R7w  <<<<

While I agree fasting is something most people should practice, if only for the psychological benefit of getting control over food. I do it myself everyday and have only eaten one or two meals a day for last few years. 24hrs fasts when travelling/busy are trivial.

However if you have struggled with excess fat mass for 20 years I can't see or haven't seen any evidence that fasting will correct this in the long term.

It is undeniable that unwanted excess fat mass is a dysfunction in the system which regulates body fat; the main players being leptin, hypothalamus and ghrelin. This system is seen in rats and other lab animals so it a really old well developed system

Your body will notice the 8kgs (a mix of water, fat and muscle) and their will be a reaction in time which will increase hunger, and conserve energy.

Is their any evidence that fasting helps to correct this dysfunction?

Regaining weight is perhaps the starkest example of how our subconscious/instinctive brains rule our rational one; were are primarily driven by animal instincts is most areas of our lives. Perhaps fasting can help in the same way that improving sleep and organising our food environment can; but for most people if weight gain is a battle then in all likelihood it always will



On audaxers necessarily having a well developed ketosis system I disagree. Ketosis is a back up system for the brain; it uses about 600cals a day of glucose when not in ketosis. Your typical (non ketogenic audaxer) will use a mixture of glycogen and fat to cycle around at audax pace. The body has no difficulty burning fat and glycogen simultaneously; an audaxer will most likely be more fat adapted and use more fat than a racing cyclist constantly topping up with some high GI carb.

A Ketogenic system will only be in use if someones is following a very low carb diet is fasting long enough to use up nearly all liver and blood glycogen/glucose (what goes into muscles can't come back even if unused). Most audaxers will have eaten something long before that happens.

[LEE]

Chinaski, what is your line of work?

I stated that I'm not qualified to advise on Fasting or any sort of dieting, merely that the evidence gathered on calorie controlled diets suggests they are an unmitigated disaster over the long term (for medically measurable reasons).

I'm trying fasting because calorie control has failed me for 20 years (although it works fine for 6 months....as is predicted by the evidence).

I've lost a lot of weight and I haven't felt hungry, cold or lethargic doing it.  I'm merely suggesting it as an option for people who, like me, have a 20 year Sine-Wave of body weight.

However if you have struggled with excess fat mass for 20 years I can't see or haven't seen any evidence that fasting will correct this in the long term.

What research have you done?  I'm interested because the Jason Fung videos imply that Fasting works long term?

You say that Fasting is something people should do, and that you do it yourself (although eating one or two meals a day doesn't sound like fasting).

So, it's just an option.  Watch the video.  Knowledge is power, the power for people to try another way if they think it may work.  If not, don't.

It suits me, it fits my life and it's working so far (still short-term).

[Von Broad]

>>>>  https://youtu.be/ETkwZIi3R7w  <<<<

For somebody [luckily] barely interested in weight loss [mainly because I'm lucky enough to burn the considerable amount I eat off during the day being on my feet working....it would soon change though if I stopped!] I found this interview very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Aw0P7GjHE

He's [sounds to me] highly intelligent, confident and very opinionated[lol], but I thought he was actually very fair and considered about a lot of aspects of food intake and who might benefit from fasting and who most definitely would not, and puts a lot of emphasis on personal responsibility and where somebody might be in their life looking to incorporate fasting. A lot of the detail goes a bit over my head, but I got drawn in and found it very interesting, particularly all the stuff about metabolism and the downsides of excessive protein.

[opens fridge....]

[LEE]

>>>>  https://youtu.be/ETkwZIi3R7w  <<<<

For somebody [luckily] barely interested in weight loss [mainly because I'm lucky enough to burn the considerable amount I eat off during the day being on my feet working....it would soon change though if I stopped!] I found this interview very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Aw0P7GjHE

Agreed. It's a video I've seen already and one of many of his (Jason Fung) I re-watch as motivation.

He's a doctor working with the chronically obese, many with decades of Type-2 diabetes.  He identifies the bullshit and cuts through it very succinctly with reasoned explanations (such as treating a disease of too much insulin ..with more insulin).

Definitely recommended.

[SteveC]

I have hit my target 
Shame that was meant to be an interim one, get back to last year's minimum, and that it's three months late, but...

[pucklie24]

My wife cooks really good food, especially during dinner. or maybe it's me who needs the discipline to say no.

[toontra]

I was surprised to weigh myself this morning and find I'm down to 67k (I'm 6' tall).  That's the lowest in a very long time (as long as I can remember).  For the past 10 years since taking up cycling my weight has fluctuated between 70 and 76 depending on time of year and whether I was on a dieting regime for LEL, PBP, etc.  For the last 2 years that has been coming down gradually but steadily to today's 67.  No blips or reversions as I used to experience.

What's changed is taking up 5:2 or 4:3 fasting most of the year (but not worrying if I miss a day or week here or there).  The real beauty of it is that I eat more or less what I like on the non-fasting days so I don't have any cravings for things denied.  However I've noticed that my appetite in general is reduced, and my weekly food bill is half of what it used to be.

Maybe not coincidentally, I'm cycling faster now at 61 that at any time in the last 10 years.  This is based on timed rides such as 3 laps of Richmond Park, sportives on fixed routes and a regular 100 mile journey I make monthly.

The fasting was a bit of a psychological struggle for the first few months but, 3 years on, it's just part of my lifestyle and I barely notice it.

BTW a fasting day for me is eating nothing until 5pm and then 2 scrambled eggs on rye bread toast and another slice of toast with honey.  Very roughly 600-800 calories.  Always the same so I don't have to put any thought into it 

[RichForrest]

I'm 10 weeks into eating Keto/Lowcarb and at my lowest weight for a few years, My spreadsheet only goes back to the beginning of 2014 
My lowest weight on there shows as 95KG which was when I had been running regular and not eating bread but had just started lifting weights at the gym.
I ate whatever I liked then when lifting and as the running stopped my weight crept up as well as the muscle mass.
2yrs later I was 110kg and maybe 115kg at some point as I didn't weigh myself but eating and lifting. I was big, fairly strong but fat as well.
I was down to 105kg when I started eating this way 10wks ago, as my cycling has gone up this year but the gym has stopped.
Likely to be under the 200lb mark this week for the 1st time in ages and I feel great, cycling has improved with the weight reduction (obv!) and I don't miss the carb loaded food.

Longest fast is only 21hrs and I ate due to having to go out but wasn't hungry, I don't regularly fast and that was only to see how I felt.

I don't feel bloated and full of wind anymore (a bonus for Dawn ) and so far I don't feel that bad cycling without food. Not tried anything over 100km yet though but may get back into it.

Date           Kg      LB           ST
07/03/14   95   209.44   14.96
27/04/16   110   242.51   17.32
28/09/17   91.1   200.84   14.35


Rich

[DuncanM]

I'm curious about how fasting works with family life. Do your other halves or children fast along with you?  I have friends who have had eating disorders, and built psychological rituals around food - some of the fasting techniques sound very similar. For this reason I'd be seriously concerned if my 8yo daughter took up fasting.
I appreciate that diets aimed at athletic performance can be extreme (eg eating sugar for a TdF, or fat for a 600km audax), and I appreciate that as someone who has never had a problem with unwanted weight I might be the wrong audience, but I find the modern emphasis on rigid diets for the regular child/adult concerning.

[hellymedic]

I am not  a parent but was always of the opinion that dieting for weight loss should be restricted to between consenting adults in private...

[Chris S]

Nearly everything I've read about fasting agrees:

No developing youngsters
No lactating mums
Nobody else who might be metabolically challenged.

If you're fit 'n healthy, it's a great thing to do - but even then, yes - you need to be sure your motivations are healthy. Fasting needs to be a positive thing - not a punishment, form of self-harm, or perceived as a route to an unrealistic body image.

As for how you might adjust your behaviour in front of your youngsters - erm... pass!

[LEE]

I'm curious about how fasting works with family life. Do your other halves or children fast along with you?  I have friends who have had eating disorders, and built psychological rituals around food - some of the fasting techniques sound very similar. For this reason I'd be seriously concerned if my 8yo daughter took up fasting.
I appreciate that diets aimed at athletic performance can be extreme (eg eating sugar for a TdF, or fat for a 600km audax), and I appreciate that as someone who has never had a problem with unwanted weight I might be the wrong audience, but I find the modern emphasis on rigid diets for the regular child/adult concerning.

Note.  I'm not medically qualified to comment..so feel free to ignore me.

Children shouldn't fast.  The are growing and developing.   That said, they shouldn't be eating as many Burgers and portions of fried chicken as they seem to do nowadays.
Fasting should be for fully developed adults (who aren't pregnant) who are informed about what they are doing.
Kids should be eating a balanced diet, with enough calories to support they vigorous play.

As for eating disorders they are a mental disorder, not something brought on by fasting, just as washing your hands regularly isn't risking the onset of severe OCD.

My Wife has started the fasting regime as well.  That makes it a lot easier because now we have 2 or 3 days a week with no cooking or washing dishes (and no temptation as the other eats or cooks).

Eating fat for Audax?  Not something I've ever done deliberately (unless it's attached to the Chips, Pies and milkshakes).

May be better to discuss >>> HERE <<<

[Greenbank]

I'm curious about how fasting works with family life. Do your other halves or children fast along with you?

No, they eat normally just as before.

Meal times in our house are relatively chaotic anyway, we rarely ever all eat together during the week (but will do at the weekend).

Either myself or my wife will be at work when it is tea time for our daughter (7yo) during the week. If it is me in charge then I'll either eat with my daughter or sit with her because I'll be eating with my wife later on that evening.

I try to arrange my fasting to be on the days when my wife will eat with our daughter (and I'm not there at that time) so that I don't have to sit there whilst one (or both of them) are eating and I'm not. I can do one day a week quite easily, but adding in the second day with this rule is trickier.

I have no problem preparing meals/snacks for both of them when I'm on a fasting day. Years of working in catering (before I found IT) trained me to be able to cook and not want to eat what I'm cooking.

[toontra]

Years of working in catering (before I found IT) trained me to be able to cook and not want to eat what I'm cooking.

 

[simonp]

I've updated the graphs, first time for a while, apols.

I also entered all my weights since April. I'm not gaining or losing weight at present, so it seems.

[SteveC]

The new diet appears to be working  (that or the scales are broken  ).
I have updated my target slightly. If I manage to hit the new target I will be lightest I have been this decade.
There are more targets but I still have some way to go before hitting those.

[SteveC]

I fear the scales might be broken. There is no way I can have lost six pounds in the last week. 
MrsC has been saying the same thing and is suggesting a new set. I think it might be just a battery which is needed, but we may be having a 'fat club' at work next year and a spare set of scales might come in handy.

[L CC]

New thread for 2018

[hellymedic]

I might rejoin.
I might not.

I have not weighed myself for many months and know my weight will have crept upwards.

I'm just not hugely motivated.

[ETA] It didn't really creep up. I wasn't totally unclothed when I weighed myself but still think I'm fatter.

[Jakob]

I failed miserably in 2017...well, haven't really gained anything, but still need to lose 10kg sooner rather than later. 20kg ideally.
Feeling more motivated this year, just really need to get the wife on board (who could also do with losing the same amount).

[woollypigs]

I failed miserably in 2017...well, haven't really gained anything, but still need to lose 10kg sooner rather than later. 20kg ideally.
Feeling more motivated this year, just really need to get the wife on board (who could also do with losing the same amount).

You need to get your skates on, if you want to do it this year, with less than a week left of 2017 and all