the perm is dead? long live the gps perm

[Philip Whiteman]

......how likely is it that new paper perms will appear to replace those that are lost as existing perm orgs step down?

it's a bit like telephone boxes and mobile phones I suppose

Probably less likely.  As you suggest, perhaps the perm will become the red phonebox of audaxing.

[vorsprung]

The question I asked in the OP was that given how easy it is to create gps DIYs how likely is it that new paper perms will appear to replace those that are lost as existing perm orgs step down?

How can I put this?

Perms and events are not just interesting as a way of getting a certificate or "points".  They are interesting as routes in themselves.  It is easy to make up a gps DIY but isn't that missing the point?

In Devon there are many roads you could take that would be a valid short(ish) path

But usually there is one preferred route that strikes a nice balance with whatever is a problem with the roads..ie too busy, too crappy, too lumpy, awful surfacing

Whatever mechanism you use to describe the route (gps track, route sheet, follow that bloke) it's the route that is of interest

By riding other peoples routes you go down that lane you never used before and it's often a gravel trap but just occasionally....

[Banjo]

One consideration with GPSs is that they are pretty reliable but do have hiccups or even fail completely now and then.

I use them on a daily basis at work but have seen one recording 84 mph when at walking speed and had a few just give up and die.

If you were on a long audax relying on GPS valididation it could really ruin your day.

[Martin]

I'm completely against infos on perms; you might as well not have them, they only work on calendar events (they are allowed on AAA sub 200 perms but even then you can bypass the hills if you want to).

We have to do it properly; either a ride is 200 or it isn't. I just think in the desire to keep within the rules technology is overtaking the traditional rides. FWIW I much prefer plodding round a paper based perm and collecting 5 receipts than fretting about a gps too.

Perms and events are not just interesting as a way of getting a certificate or "points".  They are interesting as routes in themselves.  It is easy to make up a gps DIY but isn't that missing the point?

at first glance that comes across as elitist in the extreme but I'm sure it wasn't meant that way. There are thousands of miles of lovely cycling roads to great regions and places where you have no hope of obtaining traditional proof of passage (and that's a laugh too; until recently it was a stamp in a card; you could argue that anyone other than a rider can drive to an ATM or shop)

it doesn't make those roads any less suitable for audax.

[Manotea]

...the SE is amply covered now in both calendar and perm 200s

If you have a car and don't mind driving 30~50 miles to pick up a route, maybe.

[Martin]

...the SE is amply covered now in both calendar and perm 200s

If you have a car and don't mind driving 30~50 miles to pick up a route, maybe.

oops; forgot to add the Venerable Mr O'tea with his new Ditchling Devil perm 

[mattc]

I'm completely against infos on perms; you might as well not have them, they only work on calendar events (they are allowed on AAA sub 200 perms but even then you can bypass the hills if you want to).

Maybe the problem is that we haven't tried to make Infos work. The main objection seems to be seeing the question well in advance - well how about phoning/texting/emailing the question the day before? (That's just my first thought.)
As I said, there doesn't seem to be a concern that perms riders are cheating. We already have the 50% rule due to 1 or 2 riders allegedly cheating sometime in 1847. Are we fixing something here that isn't broken.

We have to do it properly; either a ride is 200 or it isn't. I just think in the desire to keep within the rules technology is overtaking the traditional rides. FWIW I much prefer plodding round a paper based perm and collecting 5 receipts than fretting about a gps too.

Well, as someone always says in these discussions, it will always be POSSIBLE to cheat. WE (AUK) decide our rules, how watertight we want them to be (accepting that 100% is impossible) and how we enforce them - the CURRENT rules look like they favour the new technology over traditional paper rides.

Another top-of-my-head possiblity - any GPS validation would only earn special "GPS" points. So your SR would have an asterisk by it etc. Why should anyone care, they're just bike rides?

(I'm in at least 2 minds about all this, as a mostly-non-GPS user who also wants to reduce our car dependence!)

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Go for another approach instead of answering a question at an info control.  The Israeli randonneurs take photos of themselves/their bikes at specific locations and the organiser checks their camera/mobile phone at the finish.  Posting a photo (possibly during the perm) could count.

[Martin]

I'm completely against infos on perms; you might as well not have them, they only work on calendar events (they are allowed on AAA sub 200 perms but even then you can bypass the hills if you want to).

Maybe the problem is that we haven't tried to make Infos work. The main objection seems to be seeing the question well in advance - well how about phoning/texting/emailing the question the day before? (That's just my first thought.)

assuming the perm orgnaiser wants to be contacted thus (I can think of one that doesn't), no it's just not workable; an info is just that; something you have to ride to on the day to prove you've been there having no knowledge of what you are looking for beforehand.

or mobile phone photos as LWAB suggested

The only thing I can think of is those little spiky things that put a code on the card like in orienteering (which were IIRC largely replaced by transponders several years ago and now probably GPS too) but you could still go and get it stamped beforehand.

[ian_oli]

Can a permanent organiser (other than the DIY ones) accept a GPS track in lieue of receipts?

[Martin]

Can a permanent organiser (other than the DIY ones) accept a GPS track in lieue of receipts?

not yet

[eeymsmo]

possible stupid idea, but what about something like a geocache?

Small something hidden at or attached to a location containing a piece of paper with a random number on it. Rider writes number in brevet, crosses it out, writes another random number on on the paper, writes that in the brevet as well. Sends card back to org who checks that the first number is the one submitted by the previous rider, and so on.

Just to beat the naysayers, there's nothing to stop someone riding to it, writing 6 numbers and then take them back to their ne'er-do-well mates who are only in it for the points..........

[mattc]

Maybe the problem is that we haven't tried to make Infos work. The main objection seems to be seeing the question well in advance - well how about phoning/texting/emailing the question the day before? (That's just my first thought.)

assuming the perm orgnaiser wants to be contacted thus (I can think of one that doesn't), no it's just not workable

No, it would be an optional way of doing things. Organiser already employ 'discretion' e.g. some accept GPS validation. I'm suggesting we look at other non-GPS options that organisers could choose to use.

...or mobile phone photos as LWAB suggested

Indeed.

[Alouicious]

I'm confused.

The Midlands Mesh had controls nominated on the maps where receipts are to be collected.
A DIY perm has controls nominated by the rider where receipts are to be collected.

A DIY by GPS doesn't need controls? The riding distance is on the .gpx file. The rider doesn't even need to stop during the entire ride.

With a DIY by GPS you still need to specify a list of controls (place names, grid refs, lat/lon locations) but you don't need to do anything to prove that you visited them other than submit the GPX file. The route between your nominated controls is still a free choice but the shortest distance between your named controls must still be over the 200km distance (or whatever distance you intend to ride).

You can't just go out and ride a 200km ride and submit the GPX file to claim 2 points. You need to say, in advance, what the rough outline of your route will be (i.e. a list of places you definitely will go through) and then ride it.

What is needed then is "Brevet on Demand".

An e-mail to the DIY organiser saying I intend to ride a 200 DIY by GPS this Sunday, followed by another e-mail on Sunday evening with the .gpx attached.

He will then assign that ride to one of my 'virtual cards' and accredit it with a number, e-mailing me back the number for my files.

We have discussed on another thread the boundaries by which a ride can be accepted. It is up to the member to be conversant with the Regulations, be sensible and ride a wide loop or 'there and back' route, or even a 'figure 8' or 'cloverleaf'.... etc, etc.

[Martin]

What is needed then is "Brevet on Demand".

An e-mail to the DIY organiser saying I intend to ride a 200 DIY by GPS this Sunday, followed by another e-mail on Sunday evening with the .gpx attached.

He will then assign that ride to one of my 'virtual cards' and accredit it with a number, e-mailing me back the number for my files.

That's exactly what already happens  

I'm suggesting we look at other non-GPS options that organisers could choose to use.

completely agree; it's just that unless you visit your perm regularly it's difficult to come up with any workable PoP that riders can just collect on the day that will be acceptable;

even the traditional postcard is likely to just say Peterborough

[Alouicious]

What is needed then is "Brevet on Demand".

An e-mail to the DIY organiser saying I intend to ride a 200 DIY by GPS this Sunday, followed by another e-mail on Sunday evening with the .gpx attached.

He will then assign that ride to one of my 'virtual cards' and accredit it with a number, e-mailing me back the number for my files.

That's exactly what already happens  

I know...    except I wouldn't start the ride without the organiser's response from the first e-mail.

[Martin]

What is needed then is "Brevet on Demand".

An e-mail to the DIY organiser saying I intend to ride a 200 DIY by GPS this Sunday, followed by another e-mail on Sunday evening with the .gpx attached.

He will then assign that ride to one of my 'virtual cards' and accredit it with a number, e-mailing me back the number for my files.

That's exactly what already happens 

I know... 

so what relevance is it  to this thread which is about how to make traditional perms survive?

[Alouicious]

What is needed then is "Brevet on Demand".

An e-mail to the DIY organiser saying I intend to ride a 200 DIY by GPS this Sunday, followed by another e-mail on Sunday evening with the .gpx attached.

He will then assign that ride to one of my 'virtual cards' and accredit it with a number, e-mailing me back the number for my files.

That's exactly what already happens 

I know... 

so what relevance is it  to this thread which is about how to make traditional perms survive?

Why do you need to 'make' traditional perms survive?

AUK should have a reasonable handle on the number of members who don't have GPS units; and ride perms by collecting paper receipts and stapling them to a cardboard brevet card.

If ALL perms were only acceptable with GPS data evidence, how many members would bugger off.

[Manotea]

What is frustrating is that we cannot use GPS for the class of route for which they would have most impact, namely hilly perms with AAA.

Similarly, whilst ECE facilitates riding from home for Calendar events there is no 'Extended Perm'. For example, the Down to Downs route is 50km from my door, and would make a perfect 200km BR with AAA outing. Now I could acheive this by riding a GPS DIY but would mean forgoing the AAAs. Similarly some of the best climbing territory in the London area - the Surrey Hills - is effectively off limits for AAA purposes. Am I bovvered? Well, that depends on my objectives for the year.

There are other similar anomalies kicking around. Most (not all; there is no perfect solution) will go away by allowing for Perm route validation by GPS (to confirm attendence at prespecified controls), and Extended Perm (exactly as for Extended Calendars). This approach does rather seem over complicated compared with simply allowing for all routes to be validated by GPS. The key issues are how to manage validation of AAA routes and to what extent AUK want to protect & preserve the role of the Perm Org. At the moment the 'lever' available to Perm Orgs is their monopoly on Perm AAA points which can only be acheived by completing a (handbook) listed Perms (i.e., not DIYs). This proposal would strengthen the position of Perm Orgs by making it simpler to develop AAA routes and for others to integrate them into their rides.

The alternative is an open policy where riders can develop their own (AAA) DIY GPS events, in which case Perm orgs and indeed (handbook) listed perms really are history. Whether that is inevitable or desireable depends on your vision of the future.

As for the GPS challenged, nobody is suggesting that the existing library of perms would be withdrawn so there is no reason not to move forward.  Not to is simply to prolong the agony.

[Ian H]

Go for another approach instead of answering a question at an info control.  The Israeli randonneurs take photos of themselves/their bikes at specific locations and the organiser checks their camera/mobile phone at the finish.  Posting a photo (possibly during the perm) could count.

Reasonable proof of passage is what is required. It's up to individual organisers to decide what's reasonable - in consultation with their colleagues if necessary.

[interzen]

Go for another approach instead of answering a question at an info control.  The Israeli randonneurs take photos of themselves/their bikes at specific locations and the organiser checks their camera/mobile phone at the finish.  Posting a photo (possibly during the perm) could count.

Reasonable proof of passage is what is required. It's up to individual organisers to decide what's reasonable - in consultation with their colleagues if necessary.

Having spent some considerable time writing a cycling-oriented GPS app for the iPhone (why? 'Cos I felt like it), I'd be quite happy to accept an appropriate GPS track with controls (info or otherwise) flagged as waypoints - this would work particularly well with info control sites since you can correlate the lat/long of the waypoint with a 'known' value. All that said, only two of my perms has info controls and the use of a GPS tag would do away with them quite nicely,

The only thing I'm missing is a suitable method of ensuring that a GPX track hasn't been tampered with, but maybe that's just my innate paranoia showing through.

GPS is a useful too, but it isn't the be-all end-all (or, if you prefer, "just because you can doesn't mean you should".)

[rob]

If ALL perms were only acceptable with GPS data evidence, how many members would bugger off.

Me.   Don't have a GPS.   Don't want a GPS.

[Alouicious]

An observation in general..


What has to be remembered is there are a lot of members who aren't 'tech savvy'; as the OP described as 'Digitally challenged’. ( a condescending remark if ever I heared one ).

GPS, posting photos, etc is not only 'hi tech', its expensive for a lot of folks.

REMEMBER ALSO... To be a fully paid-up member of Audax United Kingdom does not require the member to even own a bicycle..   let alone a GPS, 3G phone etc etc....
They mostly do own a bike however, but spare a thought for those members who are trying to have a bit of fun ( and a medal at the end of it ) on a shoestring using a fourth hand bike they got from a neighbour.

[Manotea]

As noted aboved, nobody (I believe) is suggesting that GPS validation be the only method allowed so to suggest otherwise is being disingenious.

Reasonable proof of passage is what is required. It's up to individual organisers to decide what's reasonable - in consultation with their colleagues if necessary.

So, if an Org (Perm or Calendar) is happy to accept GPS track as PoP then - in subject with consultation with their colleagues as might be appropriate - there is no reason why they could not proceed?

Danial's experience of validating calendars by GPS track are documented elsewhere - and thats not something I would like to take on at this stage - but validation of Perms by GPS track is a reasonably established process now.

[Alouicious]

I think this thread has almost turned full circle.

1/ GPS is becoming more used,, at a slow rate.

2/ There is still a need for paper Brevet cards.

3/ If a Perm Organiser wishes to attract new customers and retain his/her existing customers, he/she should have a 'new model year' of delights on offer at regular intervals.