Author Topic: The car horn as a means of communication.....  (Read 7426 times)

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
The car horn as a means of communication.....
« on: 06 March, 2011, 12:40:16 am »
.......lacks the ability to convey the subtle nuances of meaning.


I keep getting people giving me a blast of the horn as they go by. I'd love to know what they are trying to tell me, but they don't hang around so I can't ask.  ::-) ;D


rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #1 on: 06 March, 2011, 07:15:51 am »
.......lacks the ability to convey the subtle nuances of meaning.


I keep getting people giving me a blast of the horn as they go by. I'd love to know what they are trying to tell me, but they don't hang around so I can't ask.  ::-) ;D


Highway code (sorry, only the 2007 edition), rule 112:
"The Horn. Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users of your presence."

As we all know, no-one can see recumbents.  It's COMMON KNOWLEDGE(TM).  So the motorist is just SO pleased at his ability to pierce the invisibility barrier around your 'bent that he has gone all Ostrich in his thinking: "If I can't see him, he can't see me".  So he has to let you know of his presence using non-visual means.

Maybe he thinks that the invisibility barrier has been put on back-to-front today, meaning that a recumbent rider can't see anything. ::-)
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #2 on: 06 March, 2011, 08:42:42 am »
Mostly it's niceness!  People saying "WOW lookitthat!!" and that sort of thing.  I get so many beeps on every commute I'm pretty much immune to horns now.  Some of my friends tell me how I ignored them on the road, but hopefully they understand why now.

When I first went from an upright to a 'bent I used to get quite angry as I thought they were all being cnuts.  Luckily it didn't take too long to see all the thumbs ups, taking pictures, etc.

As for unfriendly horning, I love this video by freddotu:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/kG3MFebtemM&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/kG3MFebtemM&rel=1</a>
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #3 on: 06 March, 2011, 09:50:57 am »
   
The car horn as a means of communication..... is illegal.

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #4 on: 06 March, 2011, 10:06:52 am »
No it's not - it is required as a means of communication, but only of one very specific piece of information.

Ooh Ooh, I've just given Grub a lesson in the law  ;D

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #5 on: 06 March, 2011, 10:21:46 am »
No it's not - it is required as a means of communication, but only of one very specific piece of information.

Ooh Ooh, I've just given Grub a lesson in the law  ;D

LMAO!!!!   ;D
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Euan Uzami

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #6 on: 06 March, 2011, 10:33:56 am »
In Europe (and probably other countries further afield), it actually IS used as a warning, but it's just britain, it seems, where it's primarily used as a reprimand.

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #7 on: 06 March, 2011, 10:42:27 am »
I've always thought the horn was hardly used at all here, at least by comparison with Africa.  In my youth I was once told I drove with one hand on the gear lever and the other on the horn.  Hopefully I've gotten a bit better since then as a result of driving/riding in a much better behaved driving culture.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #8 on: 06 March, 2011, 10:43:54 am »
The horn is pretty much an abomination, since it transforms a 'I should look out for other roads users and drive accordingly' driver into a 'OI!!!!! Tosser!!! Got out my way!!!!!' driver.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #9 on: 06 March, 2011, 11:35:13 am »
I once gave the finger to some c*** honking me on the dual carriageway during my morning commute.

Then found a post complaining about it on the local cycling forum, whose chairman had thought he had been giving me a "friendly wave" - one Russell Eden of this parish.

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #10 on: 06 March, 2011, 12:53:39 pm »
In Europe (and probably other countries further afield), it actually IS used as a warning, but it's just britain, it seems, where it's primarily used as a reprimand.

Nah, what I read here is not really different from what is experienced here in the Netherlands (and in Germany).
In some more southern European countries the horn is a way of greeting. To bents it quite regularly is a greeting here too. Whenever someone honks at me, I just wave (or ignore it), no matter whether the honk was "GET OUT OF THE WAY" or "Hey, awesome whatever-that-thing-is-you're-riding". It's often hard to tell anyway.
Forgive me Father, for I have sinned. It has been too many days since I have ridden through the night with a brevet card in my pocket...

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #11 on: 06 March, 2011, 12:54:32 pm »
Wikipedia: Communication is the activity of conveying information. Communication requires a sender, a message, and an intended recipient, although the receiver need not be present or aware of the sender's intent to communicate at the time of communication; thus communication can occur across vast distances in time and space. Communication requires that the communicating parties share an area of communicative commonality. The communication process is complete once the receiver has understood the sender.

So if you are communicating in the below circumstances (audible warning) it is not illegal:  ;D - and The Highway Code is guidance - not law.


Regulation 99 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 provides for the use of audible warning instruments. It states:-

99(1) Subject to the following paragraphs, no person shall sound, or cause or permit to be sounded, any horn, gong, bell or siren fitted to or carried on a vehicle which is

(a) stationary on a road, at any time, other than at times of danger due to another moving vehicle on or near the road; or
(b) in motion on a restricted road, between 23.30 hours and 07.00 hours in the following morning,
unless provided for by the following paragraphs.

NOTES:
(i) A road is a restricted road for the purpose of this paragraph if there is provided on it a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart.
(ii) Paragraph (1)(a) does not apply in respect of the sounding of a reversing alarm when the vehicle to which it is fitted is about to move backwards and its engine is running or in respect of the sounding of a boarding aid alarm.

99(3) No person shall sound, or cause or permit to be sounded, on a road any reversing alarm or boarding aid alarm fitted to a vehicle-

(a) unless the vehicle is a goods vehicle which has a maximum gross weight not less than 2000 kg, a bus, engineering plant, a refuse vehicle, or a works truck;or
(b) if the sound of the alarm is likely to be confused with a sound emitted in the operation of a pedestrian crossing established, or having effect as if established, under Part III of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.


(4) No person shall sound, or cause or permit to be sounded a gong, bell, siren or two-tone horn, fitted to or otherwise carried on a vehicle (whether it is stationary or not), unless provided for in the following paragraphs.


(5) Nothing in paragraph (1) or (4) shall prevent the sounding of

(a) an instrument or apparatus fitted to, or otherwise carried on, a vehicle at a time when the vehicle is being used for one of the purposes specified in
regulation 37(5) and it is necessary or desirable to do so either to indicate to other road users the urgency of the purposes for which the vehicle is being used, or to warn other road users of the presence of the vehicle on the road; or
(b) a horn (not being a two-tone horn), bell, gong or siren

(i) to raise alarm as to the theft or attempted theft of the vehicle or its contents; or
(ii) in the case of a bus, to summon help for the driver, the conductor or an inspector.


(6) Subject to the provisions of section 62 of the Control of Pollution Act 1974 and notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (1) and (4) above, a person may, between 12.00 hours and 19.00 hours, sound or cause of permit to be sounded an instrument or apparatus, other than a two-tone horn, fitted to or otherwise carried on a vehicle, being an instrument or apparatus designed to emit a sound for the purpose of informing members of the public that the vehicle is conveying goods for sale, if, when the apparatus or instrument is sounded, it is sounded only for that purpose.


37(5) -

(a) used for fire brigade or in England, fire and rescue authority, ambulance or police purposes;
(aa) as regards England and Wales, and so far as relating to the functions of the Serious Organised Crime Agency which are exercisable in or as regards Scotland and which relate to reserved matters (within the meaning of the Scotland Act 1998, used for Serious Organised Crime Agency purposes;
(b) owned by a body formed primarily for the purposes of fire salvage and used for those or similar purposes;
(c) owned by the Forestry Commission or by local authorities and used from time to time for the purposes of fighting fires;
(d) owned by the Secretary of State for Defence and used for the purposes of the disposal of bombs or explosives;
(e) used for the purposes of the Blood Transfusion Service provided under the National Health Service Act 1977 or under the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1947;
(f) used by Her Majesty's Coastguard or the Coastguard Auxiliary Service to aid persons in danger or vessels in distress on or near the coast;
(g) used for the purposes of rescue operations at mines;
(h) owned by the Secretary of State for Defence and used by the Royal Air Force Mountain Rescue Service for the purposes of rescue operations in connection with crashed aircraft or any other emergencies;
(i) owned by the Royal National Lifeboat Institution and used for the purposes of launching lifeboats.
(j) a vehicle under the lawful control of the Commissioners for Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and used from time to time for the purposes of investigation of serious crime (which, save for the omission of the words"and, where the authorising officer is within subsection (5)(h), it relates to an assigned matter within the meaning of section 1(1) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979" has the meaning given by section 93(4) of the Police Act 1997;
(k) owned or operated by the Secretary of State for Defence and used for the purpose of any activity-

(i) which prevents or decreases the exposure of persons to radiation arising from a radiation accident or radiation emergency; or
(ii) in connection with any event which could lead to a radiation accident or radiation emergency or

(l) used for mountain rescue purposes

rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #12 on: 06 March, 2011, 01:20:59 pm »
Oooh - fascinating!
Does this mean that I can't ring a bike bell after 2330 hrs?
 ;D
So if on a late one back from the pub, and someone shouts "why didn't you ring your bell?", can I reply "It's Illegal!"?
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #13 on: 06 March, 2011, 04:32:38 pm »
Complete difference between a friendly (short) toot toot and a long angry paaaaaaaarp, could one accuse Toad (of Toad hall) sat in the road newly in love with the motor car whilst going poop poop (I might have got the actual tone wrong, don't gang up on me) of being aggressive and/or unlawful, poor Toad like some tooters sadly misunderstood.
                                            ;)
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #14 on: 06 March, 2011, 04:44:37 pm »
Oooh - fascinating!
Does this mean that I can't ring a bike bell after 2330 hrs?
 ;D
So if on a late one back from the pub, and someone shouts "why didn't you ring your bell?", can I reply "It's Illegal!"?


You can ring your bell all you like as a cycle is not defined as a vehicle.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #15 on: 06 March, 2011, 05:06:33 pm »
Oooh - fascinating!
Does this mean that I can't ring a bike bell after 2330 hrs?
 ;D
So if on a late one back from the pub, and someone shouts "why didn't you ring your bell?", can I reply "It's Illegal!"?


You can ring your bell all you like as a cycle is not defined as a vehicle.

Err... a bicycle is a vehicle - it is not a motor vehicle.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #16 on: 06 March, 2011, 05:07:41 pm »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/6MiKbVwZ8cU&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/6MiKbVwZ8cU&rel=1</a>

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #17 on: 06 March, 2011, 05:10:10 pm »
You can ring your bell all you like as a cycle is not defined as a vehicle.

Err... a bicycle is a vehicle - it is not a motor vehicle.

I thought it was a carriage?

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #18 on: 06 March, 2011, 05:18:47 pm »
You can ring your bell all you like as a cycle is not defined as a vehicle.

Err... a bicycle is a vehicle - it is not a motor vehicle.

I thought it was a carriage?

The Pedal Bicycles (Safety) Regulations 2003 define a bicycle as a "two-wheeled vehicle that is propelled solely by the muscular energy of the person on that vehicle by means of pedals and has not been constructed or adapted for propulsion by mechanical power."
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #19 on: 06 March, 2011, 05:34:47 pm »
Wikipedia: Communication is the activity of conveying information. Communication requires a sender, a message, and an intended recipient, although the receiver need not be present or aware of the sender's intent to communicate at the time of communication; thus communication can occur across vast distances in time and space. Communication requires that the communicating parties share an area of communicative commonality. The communication process is complete once the receiver has understood the sender.

So if you are communicating in the below circumstances (audible warning) it is not illegal:  ;D - and The Highway Code is guidance - not law.

.....................................................masses of guff snipped


*reeling from being beaten about the head by a large volume of TEH LAW*


OK Officer I give in - please don't hit me again sir  :D

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #20 on: 06 March, 2011, 05:39:10 pm »
Does this mean that a (recumbent) trike is immune to "cycle" laws, Ian Buck told Barbara and I of getting away with using a tunnel from which Bicycles had been barred (at speed) telling the hofficer who stopped him "tisn't a bike" noddy said , "what is it then" Ian (with triumphant smile and in beautiful geordie accent) "it's a HPV" exit left noddy.
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #21 on: 07 March, 2011, 03:35:13 pm »
Well come on then Grub, let's see you start nailing some of these P******** taxi drivers!  ;D

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #22 on: 07 March, 2011, 04:19:10 pm »
Does this mean that a (recumbent) trike is immune to "cycle" laws, Ian Buck told Barbara and I of getting away with using a tunnel from which Bicycles had been barred (at speed) telling the hofficer who stopped him "tisn't a bike" noddy said , "what is it then" Ian (with triumphant smile and in beautiful geordie accent) "it's a HPV" exit left noddy.
I'm sure the 1835 highways act included trikes as well as bikes in the definition of a cycle.
It was a later act that added quads and pents into the definition of a cycle.
I'm not sure if a unicycle has been added to the definition yet.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #23 on: 09 March, 2011, 06:51:39 am »
Does this mean that a (recumbent) trike is immune to "cycle" laws, Ian Buck told Barbara and I of getting away with using a tunnel from which Bicycles had been barred (at speed) telling the hofficer who stopped him "tisn't a bike" noddy said , "what is it then" Ian (with triumphant smile and in beautiful geordie accent) "it's a HPV" exit left noddy.
I'm sure the 1835 highways act included trikes as well as bikes in the definition of a cycle.
It was a later act that added quads and pents into the definition of a cycle.
I'm not sure if a unicycle has been added to the definition yet.

The Highways Act 1835 included bicycles, trikes and quads unde the definition of 'carriage' (as mentioned by Kim above).  Subsequent legislation has included 'carriage' within the definition of 'vehicle'.  However, much subsequent legislation has tended to use 'vehicle' and 'motor vehicle' interchangably, when it shouldn't - poor drafting.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Re: The car horn as a means of communication.....
« Reply #24 on: 09 March, 2011, 08:07:22 am »
Does this mean that a (recumbent) trike is immune to "cycle" laws, Ian Buck told Barbara and I of getting away with using a tunnel from which Bicycles had been barred (at speed) telling the hofficer who stopped him "tisn't a bike" noddy said , "what is it then" Ian (with triumphant smile and in beautiful geordie accent) "it's a HPV" exit left noddy.
I'm sure the 1835 highways act included trikes as well as bikes in the definition of a cycle.
It was a later act that added quads and pents into the definition of a cycle.
I'm not sure if a unicycle has been added to the definition yet.

The Highways Act 1835 included bicycles, trikes and quads unde the definition of 'carriage' (as mentioned by Kim above).  Subsequent legislation has included 'carriage' within the definition of 'vehicle'.  However, much subsequent legislation has tended to use 'vehicle' and 'motor vehicle' interchangably, when it shouldn't - poor drafting.

Greg,
In the law regarding use of audible warning devices - construction and use regs, what is the definition of a vehicle?
Does it include pedal cycles?
In the act you quoted, where does it talk about the use of audible devices?
I am sure you understand that definitions can be act specific and I was referring to the definition in the act I was using.
Not much point in calling a bicycle a vehicle or the law will be applied incorrectly.