OK, so "a freind" wants to try one of these machines

[Euan Uzami]

Windcheetah?

yeah, the one that handled well looked like that. Although I think it could have been a greenspeed

(its even heavier three-wheeled cousin is the Scorpion)

the above looks exactly like the one that I thought looked really good but on riding, didn't handle well. I think it was made by ICE, not sure if that one is.

[Kim]

The Streetmachine, Grasshopper and Scorpion are made by HPVelotechnik.  You can see they share a rather nifty rear suspension design, and on closer inspection, that they've been overengineered to survive the apocalypse by clever Germans who presumably weren't planning to ride up too many hills.  (HPV don't really know how to do lightweight.)

I think ICE are generally considered to have the edge on good handling, though I must confess to not having ridden a Scorpion.

[henshaw11]

>HPV don't really know how to do lightweight.

I think somewhere here or one of t'other forums, someone coined the phrase 'panzerfietsen', or summat like that.

Re weight - Challenge produce some of the lighter 2-wheelers, with their SL models (varying gauge tubes, carbon fibre seats/booms..) - some (Fujin SL I think - unsuspended) are about the 22lbs mark. The suspended SL models are something like the 24 or 26lb mark


BTW - I'm pretty sure Greenspeed only do trikes in USS form.

[AndyH]

Thanks for all the replies. Interesting reading. I think I'll suggest to "my friend" that he takes a trip up to Dulwich one afternoon, if he can get off work early.

@ Ben T - do you ride both upright & bent, & if so how do you find swapping between the two? (I'd heard / read that it takes about 6 weeks for muscles to adapt to the different types of riding)

Hmm.  Maybe we could organise a YACF darkside can-I-have-a-go-mate session?  Get lots of interesting bikes, trikes, cakes and so on in one place, preferably somewhere with some nice traffic-free gently sloping tarmac, so people can have an opportunity to play?

Great idea 

Going back to the Baccetta strada, part of the attraction for me my friend is the frame kit, does anyone else offer anything like that?
 

[tom_e]

Going back to the Baccetta strada, part of the attraction for me my friend is the frame kit, does anyone else offer anything like that?

Metabikes do, and have some very good reviews over on bentrideronline.  Only UK dealer is kinetics in Glasgow - no idea if there is a bike further south you could find to try.

[Auntie Helen]

The Streetmachine, Grasshopper and Scorpion are made by HPVelotechnik.  You can see they share a rather nifty rear suspension design, and on closer inspection, that they've been overengineered to survive the apocalypse by clever Germans who presumably weren't planning to ride up too many hills.  (HPV don't really know how to do lightweight.)

I think ICE are generally considered to have the edge on good handling, though I must confess to not having ridden a Scorpion.

I roded a Skorpion whilst in Germany (came across it whilst cycling, owner and I swapped bikes for a bit) and I have to say it felt massively heavy. The chap said he wouldn't dream of taking it on trains due to the weight. It rode smoothly but the weight was significant (it also had a Rohloff) and the boom was too short for comfort for me.

[Kim]

@ Ben T - do you ride both upright & bent, & if so how do you find swapping between the two? (I'd heard / read that it takes about 6 weeks for muscles to adapt to the different types of riding)

I ride both, though the 'bent is currently winning on mileage, and find that they're two related but not entirely the same kinds of fitness, and to stay good at both you have to ride both.  The 'bent legs' phenomenon is well documented, but I'll suggest its corollary is 'DF arms'.  Having recently done some off-road riding on my hybrid after weeks of almost exclusively distance on the 'bent, I suddenly re-discovered triceps and neck muscles (or lack thereof!).

How long it takes to adapt is, I reckon, entirely down to putting the miles in.

That aside, I have absolutely no problem getting straight off one bike onto the other.  It's different enough to avoid the brainfuck you get from riding solo immediately after stoking a tandem.

[Kim]

I roded a Skorpion whilst in Germany (came across it whilst cycling, owner and I swapped bikes for a bit) and I have to say it felt massively heavy. The chap said he wouldn't dream of taking it on trains due to the weight. It rode smoothly but the weight was significant (it also had a Rohloff) and the boom was too short for comfort for me.

I picked one up to feel the weight (though didn't ride it) during our visit to D-Tek, and reckoned it was about the same as my Streetmachine with a full set of gadgetry and a serious day-ride's worth of water and luggage.  Can't remember whether it had a Rohloff or not.

While weight isn't always as important as it's made out - especially on a heavy tourer - that did seem a bit gratuitous, and I recall telling barakta not to even try to lift it!

[Euan Uzami]

Thanks for all the replies. Interesting reading. I think I'll suggest to "my friend" that he takes a trip up to Dulwich one afternoon, if he can get off work early.

@ Ben T - do you ride both upright & bent, & if so how do you find swapping between the two? (I'd heard / read that it takes about 6 weeks for muscles to adapt to the different types of riding)

Hmm.  Maybe we could organise a YACF darkside can-I-have-a-go-mate session?  Get lots of interesting bikes, trikes, cakes and so on in one place, preferably somewhere with some nice traffic-free gently sloping tarmac, so people can have an opportunity to play?

Great idea 

Going back to the Baccetta strada, part of the attraction for me my friend is the frame kit, does anyone else offer anything like that?

no, I only ride an upright. I did try out bents but decided I didn't like them - trikes 'cos they felt too slow, and bikes mainly 'cos it's too much of a learning curve / too difficult to handle. They were the main reasons, there were other considerations but that could be got round if it wasn't for those two main things that put me off.

[redshift]

It's at times like this that I really miss Cyclefest - a bi-annual weekend-ish gathering of the weird and wacky in the cycling department, usually coincident with the Salt Ayre race day of the BHPC, which meant you got all the racers, plus the designers, and hundreds of people 'just having a go' on Morecambe promenade, Salt Ayre racetrack, or around St Martin's College in Lancaster.

Throw in a juggler on a 30" unicycle, various rickshaws, homebuilds, Uncle Wobbly with the SpinCycle and the Wobblebike, and the hill sprint up the college drive, and you have a recipe for a jolly weekend.  Sad that it is no more, as it would have provided you with exactly what you're your friend is after - as it did me.  Of course I then went and ruined it by actually buying one, but hey...

[PhilO]

Going back to the Baccetta strada, part of the attraction for me my friend is the frame kit, does anyone else offer anything like that?

Metabikes do, and have some very good reviews over on bentrideronline.  Only UK dealer is kinetics in Glasgow - no idea if there is a bike further south you could find to try.

I bought my Optima as a frame set. I bought it direct from the manufacturers after waiting a couple of months for Future Cycles to get their @s in gear and order one for me, as promised. 'Tis a shame, 'cause they were really helpful with test rides....    D-Tek aren't the only ones, sadly, although my experience may have been a one-off.

I rode a Metabike at the Spezi a couple of years ago and hated strongly disliked its handling. Don't read too much into that as handling is a personal preference thing even more than with uprights, but it's notable that pretty much everyone else who rode it disliked it.

[DrMekon]

I think ICE are generally considered to have the edge on good handling, though I must confess to not having ridden a Scorpion.

I read all the hype about ICEs magic steering geometry, but having ridden the Sprint and the Scorpion back to back, the Sprint had the edge, but not so much that the Scorpion could be described as handling badly. The Catrike on the other hand felt like it wanted to rip my arms off. Great fun in small doses, and hilarious/terrifying understeer/grip when you turn in aggressively. The Sprint felt like you could take ridiculous liberties. The Catrike felt like it could hurt you if you took the piss.

I have nothing nice to say about the Windcheetah Clubsport.

This thread is making me have teh bad lusting after a sprint, not helped by seeing Kevin's hire/buy deal mentioned on Velovision.

[Chris L]

Hmm.  Maybe we could organise a YACF darkside can-I-have-a-go-mate session?  Get lots of interesting bikes, trikes, cakes and so on in one place, preferably somewhere with some nice traffic-free gently sloping tarmac, so people can have an opportunity to play?

That'd be lovely.  I can volunteer me and my Grasshopper and suggest the middle car park in Richmond Park on a Sunday morning.  There's a long gentle slope (which does have cars on it, though not too much early on Sunday) down to the Robin Hood roundabout gate and a mile long traffic free section off towards Ham Gate.

[Kim]

That's more the sort of thing I had in mind.  I think I'll start a thread...

[rower40]

Hmm.  Maybe we could organise a YACF darkside can-I-have-a-go-mate session?  Get lots of interesting bikes, trikes, cakes and so on in one place, preferably somewhere with some nice traffic-free gently sloping tarmac, so people can have an opportunity to play?

That'd be lovely.  I can volunteer me and my Grasshopper and suggest the middle car park in Richmond Park on a Sunday morning.  There's a long gentle slope (which does have cars on it, though not too much early on Sunday) down to the Robin Hood roundabout gate and a mile long traffic free section off towards Ham Gate.

Well, if there's already a Grasshopper going, I'd better get my Windcheetah back into working order and be ready to transport that to far-flung corners.

[Kim]

Okay, I've started a thread up in Freewheeling (no reason this has to be darkside-specific - I'm sure there are people who'd like to play with upright trikes etc too).

[Wendy]

I think somewhere here or one of t'other forums, someone coined the phrase 'panzerfietsen', or summat like that.

Fankoo very much.  It was me.