Author Topic: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?  (Read 6377 times)

Samuel D

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2017, 09:27:08 pm »
I’m not sure I’d recommend an eTrex to a self-described luddite (even if that’s probably an exaggeration). The user interface is probably the least intuitive of any electronic device I’ve owned. We’re talking seriously geeky operation.

Furthermore, even when you know how to use it, it takes a long time to do basic tasks (e.g. enter an address one character at a time with the mini joystick, scroll the map, or calculate a route). The whole thing feels archaic, like a pocket computer from 1990. Using it, you’d never guess smartphones happened. I know you don’t have a smartphone, but be careful what you wish for!

I have an Edge Touring (for sale, would you believe) and an eTrex 20. I’ve decided to keep the latter for now, mainly because the Edge Touring has too many serious software bugs (like all the Edges I’ve used) and itself has a stupid user interface (albeit a little more modern).

Massive may be fair comment when compared with something like an Edge 200, but compared with an Edge Touring or an Edge 800, there's actually very little in it.

Disagree. It feels about twice the size, in part because the mount is huge and sits high off the handlebar.

I don’t recommend the Edge Touring, but it’s definitely easier to use than my eTrex 20.

If I hadn’t invested perhaps literally a week learning how to use Garmins, I would try another brand.

pdm

  • Sheffield hills? Nah... Just potholes.
Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2017, 09:32:23 pm »

Duracell rechargeable any good or there are better ones around?

I much prefer eneloops - e.g. like these from Amazon. The hold their charge and seem to last longer... YMMV??

Oops crosspost with FF, sorry!

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2017, 09:45:01 pm »
The whole thing feels archaic, like a pocket computer from 1990.

I'd agree with that synopsis.

The modern eTrexes' user interface has evolved directly from that of the original 'Yellow' eTrex, which was designed in the early noughties as the sort of device someone with proper navigation skills would use like a compass alongside a paper map.  As technology progressed the eTrex range gained new features (mapping, colour, USB, auto-routing, SD cards, etc), but kept the same UI paradigm.  Around the time of the eTrex 10/20/30 they 'simplified' the UI, but in practice all this really meant was that they moved things around a bit and  removed some of the niche features that some of us found quite useful.

If you come to them with expectations based on smartphone apps, TomTom-style car satnavs or traditional bicycle computers, it's going to be a bit of a culture shock.

(The Edge sprang up somewhere relatively late in this evolutionary process, so there's quite a lot in common, but a reinvented - and somewhat more intuitive - UI that's trying to be a competitive cyclist's training aid.)
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Phil W

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2017, 10:52:40 pm »
Oh I don't know the first Edges turned up in 2004. I would not call that relatively late in the process compared to the original Etrexes. Only a couple of years between the first models.

Believe it or not the first Edges were stable over distance after about the third firmware release. The crs course format or tcx format could be loaded and navigated as a breadcrumb trail with up to 10,000 point. Partly why I moved from my first etrex to edge back then. Nowadays I'm etrex after too many crashes on the second edge I got around 2009 ish. Due to the rubber seal disintegrating and the original edge being discontinued by then.

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2017, 11:03:57 pm »
That early?  (I'd have looked it up, but I'm DNS-impaired at present).  Their popularity seems very recent.

Mind you, the hiking handhelds didn't start with the eTrex, but it was a major re-design compared to those from the dark days of Selective Availability.  While the UI and hardware design was new, the waypoint/route/track paradigm was much older.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Samuel D

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2017, 11:41:47 pm »
And I agree with Kim’s comments.

In defence of the eTrex 20, the hardware is pretty impressive for the money. It feels more like a professional tool than a gadget. The battery door closes like a submarine hatch. The rubber armour is nice. With eneloops, the battery life is longer than the already long claim – as opposed to the Edges that miss their specifications when new, never mind after a couple of hundred cycles on the built-in li-ion battery. And, best of all, the eTrex 20 display has much higher contrast than the Edges in bright light, especially with the backlights off. I had many near-crashes while struggling to see the map on my Edge 800 on overcast days.

The Edges have a habit of losing data. They have a variety of ways of doing this. Mine have lost tracks or parts of tracks at café stops. Other times they’ve shut down randomly. Other times they’ve shut down at a specific point on a route (every time), whether because of electromagnetic radiation or another software bug I don’t know. And when they shut down, getting them to pick up the route again is not always trivial. Other times, old rides have disappeared from the history.

Garmin has been almost unbelievably poor at fixing these bugs with software updates, instead often introducing new bugs or even new models with the same bugs. Honestly, someone should be in jail over this.

The eTrex 20 is a lot more reliable at showing you where to go and recording a track, and that’s important because it’s pretty much the whole point of these things (unless you’re a Strava metrics nerd). Mind you, the eTrex 20 rattles in its mount and sometimes shuts down on hard bumps, likely because the AA cells momentarily disconnect. Solving that is my next challenge.

The eTrex 30 (or 30x) has an altimeter and compass, the first of which I miss on my eTrex 20. However, when I bought mine there were, you guessed it, software bugs with the eTrex 30’s altimeter and compass. I didn’t trust Garmin to fix those, though I think they actually did in this instance. Perhaps someone here remembers details.

Phil W

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2017, 12:05:28 am »
That early?  (I'd have looked it up, but I'm DNS-impaired at present).  Their popularity seems very recent.

Mind you, the hiking handhelds didn't start with the eTrex, but it was a major re-design compared to those from the dark days of Selective Availability.  While the UI and hardware design was new, the waypoint/route/track paradigm was much older.

Again not really. The GPX schema for routes, waypoints, tracks was first released in 2002. I'm not aware of that classification being that way much earlier unless you have links. I be interested to see how they were defined before the first GPX schema. But my recall is that it was a mess with no unified concepts or terminology across the manufacturers till GPX was thrashed out. The edge units in 2004 didn't really have a concept of routes, tracks, waypoints. You had courses and course points. The course points being the simplified version of what are now called cue points.  Even the recorded track wasn't it is now, it was a recorded course with the crs schema not a tracklog as we now know them.

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2017, 12:08:22 am »
The eTrex HCx series was the best for reliable logging, I reckon.  It had an option to write a copy of the current track to daily GPX files on the SD card which it then had no means of accessing.  That would survive most software/hardware failures and any kind of PEBKAC error up to and including a full factory reset.

The 10/20/30 made the hardware a lot more reliable but did away with that useful feature, and put the master reset a couple of clicks away from the trip computer reset.  I've not cocked that one up yet, but it's only a matter of time with sleep deprivation, gloves or cold fingers.


(As for rattling in the mount, I think that's a red herring:  Handlebars vibrate - though as there's no visual reference it's not usually obvious to the rider how much - and merely attaching the device slightly more securely to the vibrating handlebar might change the frequency of the vibration somewhat, but certainly won't make it stop.)
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2017, 12:12:33 am »
Again not really. The GPX schema for routes, waypoints, tracks was first released in 2002. I'm not aware of that classification being that way much earlier unless you have links.

Serial Garmins like the yellow eTrex didn't use GPX files.  I only briefly used a 1990s one, but it had the concept of setting waypoints and recording tracks.  No idea what computer connectivity (if any) that had.  I would not be surprised if the GPX schema was inspired by the functionality of contemporary devices.

Anyway, this doesn't really matter to the OP.  The point is there's a long history which is why the user interfaces seem odd by modern standards.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Phil W

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2017, 12:21:41 am »
The UI is simple. Lack of competition so no evolutionary drivers to improve it. Sadly the competition at the time was much worse and they died by the wayside.

Early smart phone Uis were ugly and crap to be fair. But fortunately healthy competition particularly when Apple joined in changed that.  Of course the smart phones also have therir ancestry in the touch screen tablets of a similar size back in the early 90's

Phil W

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2017, 12:46:05 am »
Original yellow etrex  only dates from 2000, and was released whilst the draft route, track, waypoints parts of the GPX schema were beinfpg discussed and agreed.  I'm pretty sure the hand held units as used in the first gulf war (which pre dated etrex) didn't have a route, track, waypoints setup.  Waypoint was there but I don't think the other two were.

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2017, 07:25:59 am »
I’m not sure I’d recommend an eTrex to a self-described luddite (even if that’s probably an exaggeration). The user interface is probably the least intuitive of any electronic device I’ve owned. We’re talking seriously geeky operation.

Furthermore, even when you know how to use it, it takes a long time to do basic tasks (e.g. enter an address one character at a time with the mini joystick, scroll the map, or calculate a route). The whole thing feels archaic, like a pocket computer from 1990. Using it, you’d never guess smartphones happened. I know you don’t have a smartphone, but be careful what you wish for!

I have an Edge Touring (for sale, would you believe) and an eTrex 20. I’ve decided to keep the latter for now, mainly because the Edge Touring has too many serious software bugs (like all the Edges I’ve used) and itself has a stupid user interface (albeit a little more modern).

Massive may be fair comment when compared with something like an Edge 200, but compared with an Edge Touring or an Edge 800, there's actually very little in it.

Disagree. It feels about twice the size, in part because the mount is huge and sits high off the handlebar.

I don’t recommend the Edge Touring, but it’s definitely easier to use than my eTrex 20.

If I hadn’t invested perhaps literally a week learning how to use Garmins, I would try another brand.

Luddite in the sense that I draw a line at smartphones operating bicycle related things. I can work out how things work (I think!?  ::-)  )

Problem with other brands is that all I see are performance related toys, for cyclists who are interested in going 20 miles full on and downloading all sorts of stats. I would like something to ride 200 miles or more without too much bother whether I am on a "segmant" or not.

The only downsides of teh Etrex that I can see are its bulky size and the fact that the handlebar mount seems less than perfect and probably needs rubber bands to hold it

Phil W

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2017, 08:33:17 am »
If your happy with breadcrumb trail the Edge 500 was stable in it's last update. Internal batteries last about 15 hours when new. so enough for a 200.  Not sure if still available though.

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2017, 08:51:26 am »
If your happy with breadcrumb trail the Edge 500 was stable in it's last update. Internal batteries last about 15 hours when new. so enough for a 200.  Not sure if still available though.

I thought that was the most problemaic unit ever, I know at least two people with Edge 500 that don't work

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2017, 08:53:16 am »
so enough for a 200. 

I can probably just about do a flat 400 in that time...  ;D 8)

Phil W

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2017, 08:59:53 am »
If your happy with breadcrumb trail the Edge 500 was stable in it's last update. Internal batteries last about 15 hours when new. so enough for a 200.  Not sure if still available though.

I thought that was the most problemaic unit ever, I know at least two people with Edge 500 that don't work

Originally but they did finally fix the crashing when following a course.  There have been worse Edges since mind.

JonB

  • Granny Ring ... Yes Please!
Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2017, 09:04:37 am »
I think the 500 is only available through EBay outlets these days, mostly second hand/reconditioned. I think it was pretty stable, I know a few people who still use them but they were a bit prone to the breadcrumb doing a disappearing act at times and they have the hassle of needing a special charging cable so as not to reset.

I have a 200 and an Etrex and use the latter most of the time. As has been noted it's not particularly user friendly out of the box and it's a bit chunky but very stable, I never found the routing with turn by turn directions very reliable so I just stick to following a track, a pink line on a map which is a lot better than following a breadcrumb on the 200. In terms of the mount, I've never needed a band (think this may have been an older model thing) but I do use a lanyard in case I've not pushed it fully home in a sleep deprived state. I've used Garmin mounts rather than cheap EBay versions and just layered the bottom with insulation tape at the first sign of any rattle.  The other thing that may be of interest is the 20 doesn't have the altimeter so your climbing figure will tend to show as a lot lower on Strava, similar to the 200, you'll need the 30 for that (and you'll have to do a little 'fix' to make Strava recognise it).

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2017, 09:27:48 am »
It's a jungle, isn't it?

GPS is a simple idea, not sure why they make it so complicated

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2017, 09:35:37 am »
If you want to use HR/cadence/power ANT+ sensors, I don't think the Etrex 20 supports them.

If your happy with breadcrumb trail the Edge 500 was stable in it's last update. Internal batteries last about 15 hours when new. so enough for a 200.  Not sure if still available though.

I thought that was the most problemaic unit ever, I know at least two people with Edge 500 that don't work

Based on a fairly vague and pointless sample of people I know, I reckon it's the most reliable; it seems to be the newer Edge units with the extra features (bluetooth etc.) that go wrong more. I'm happy with my 500 - I do also have a big clunky Etrex Vista, but hardly ever use it.

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2017, 09:38:06 am »
If you want to use HR/cadence/power ANT+ sensors, I don't think the Etrex 20 supports them.

If your happy with breadcrumb trail the Edge 500 was stable in it's last update. Internal batteries last about 15 hours when new. so enough for a 200.  Not sure if still available though.

I thought that was the most problemaic unit ever, I know at least two people with Edge 500 that don't work

Based on a fairly vague and pointless sample of people I know, I reckon it's the most reliable; it seems to be the newer Edge units with the extra features (bluetooth etc.) that go wrong more. I'm happy with my 500 - I do also have a big clunky Etrex Vista, but hardly ever use it.

But the 500 has the same "charge on the go" issues as my 200, as I understand... you connect it with a OTG cable, it is happy for 5 minutes then it keeps giving the "lost power" signal, including beeping, which is the most annoying thing ever

Maludenbas

Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2017, 09:38:42 am »
I'm still happy with my Edge 305, still going after 10+ years. If/when it packs up, I'm going to have fun looking for a replacement.

αdαmsκι

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Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2017, 09:45:03 am »
The only downsides of teh Etrex that I can see are its bulky size and the fact that the handlebar mount seems less than perfect and probably needs rubber bands to hold it

I've never had a problem of my Etrex escaping from the mount (inc. various corrugated gravel roads), but I do use a proper branded Garmin mount. The cheaper versions that one can buy from Amazon etc. are rubbish.  However, I have a lanyard wrapped around the handlebars as an insurance policy.
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frankly frankie

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Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2017, 09:45:46 am »
The point is there's a long history which is why the user interfaces seem odd by modern standards.

The problem with the Etrex 20/30 UI is that it's a touchscreen UI without (thank goodness) a touchscreen.
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Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2017, 09:48:38 am »
I'm still happy with my Edge 305, still going after 10+ years. If/when it packs up, I'm going to have fun looking for a replacement.

It's not that fun at all... looks like spending money to downgrade to a lesser product... solving one problem and creating three you didn't have before  >:(

frankly frankie

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Re: Edge Touring or Wahoo Bolt?
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2017, 09:51:27 am »
Well that's true - Garmins have definitely regressed over the last 10 years.

I've never had a problem of my Etrex escaping from the mount

In fact my mount snapped in 2 (well all right, I broke it) at the start of this year, with the bottom half (including the latch) breaking off.  Since then I've been using the remaining half-a-mount all year, including several Alpine descents, and the E30 is still a tight fit and rock solid.  Genuine Garmin mount, the cheap copies seem awful.  Of course I've always used a lanyard, but never once has it been needed.
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