Campagnolo (10-speed) chainset dilemma

[Oxford_Guy]

Hi - I visited Mercian Cycles in Derby today to be fitted (by Grant) for a Mercian Strada (a present to self for my 50th birthday next year, also 10 years since I got rid of my last car), will post some more about that experience separately (all positive, apart from the issue below).

One issue that came up, though, was with the chainset I had intended to be fitted - I'd purchased a Campagnolo Comp Triple (50/40/30) square taper 10-speed chainset off eBay recently, which I had intended to fit to the bike, but I somewhat foolishly though that the 175mm cranks it came with (the only length available) were going to be okay, but Grant made it pretty clear he thought they would be way too long for me (I'm only about 5'8" or so) - he said that 170mm would be ideal, though I might just about get away with 172.5mm. He also advised against a Triple chainset for what will basically be a road/sportive bike and recommend I get a compact chainset (I'm used to a triple on my touring bike, so might be a bit biased. he may well be right that it's not necessary). Don't think I'm strong enough for a 39/52 (or 53) double on hills, but I'd probably be fine with a 34T compact inner ring and a 12/30 Centaur cassette.

I would still ideally like to go for a (silver) 10-speed Campagnolo setup, as I have a set of 10-speed 2006-era silver Veloce Ergos (non-"Escape", non-"QS" - basically similar to Ultrashift) that I've recently had overhauled that I would like to use, and these seem to be more durable than the modern 11-speed shifters (and you can only get the lesser Powershift type in the silver colour I want, not Ultrashift, which are only available in black carbon).

So it seems like I basically have these options:

1) Get a 10-speed Campagnolo Compact chainset - though the only (silver) ones I can find for sale are Veloce Powershift Power Torque ones. I'd prefer Ultrashift Ultra Torque (which for a brief time were available for Veloce and Centaur) or square taper, but can only find these in full 39/52 or 39/53 - seems like they didn't make many Compacts back then? Given that I won't be servicing the bottom bracket bearings myself or touring in the middle of nowhere on this bike how much of an issue would the Powershift Power Torque BB be? Also what are the quality of the Veloce chainrings like?

2) Try to find a suitable NOS (most used ones are quite beat-up) 170mm Campagnolo Triple (52/39/30 would be okay with a suitable cassette) on eBay. All I've found though is this Veloce 50/39/30 Powershift Power Torque one, which doesn't look nearly as nice as my Comp Triple (I suppose at a push I could swap the chainrings around, though?)

3) Get a third-party, presumably JIS taper, chainset - either a compact double (possibly even 48/34), such as this or even a triple, such as this. Though I'm not convinced this would work as smoothly as a genuine 10-speed Campagnolo chainset with Campagnolo FD and BB. Would an alternative be to just get the cranks and fit Campagnolo chainrings to these, or would that not work and/or be otherwise pointless?

4) Give up the whole 10-speed idea and get an 11-speed Athena (Power Torque, but prettier chainrings) or Potenza (Ultra Torque, but ugly chain rings) Campagnolo setup (though issues with Powershift shifters with both these then, as these only appear in Chorus and upwards... and the Potenza groupset is quite ugly)

5) Give up the whole Campagnolo idea and go for Shimano 105 - don't really want to do this, though, had my heart set on a Campagnolo setup for this bike and I really don't like the way Shimano STIs work (e.g. the sideways-moving brake lever...)

Any suggestions about the best way forward here?

[rafletcher]

I may be being stupid, but how do powershift and ultrashift chainsets differ?  As long as you have a square taper chainset you’ll be good to go.

[ACyclingRooster]

Hi Oxford_Guy. I have 10spd Veloce on both of my road bikes albeit one is a 50cm Bianchi Via Nirone 7 Alu Carbon Flat Bar Hybrid and the other is a Steve Goff 51cm Dropped Bar regular road race bike.
Both are on triple Stronglight rings (hybrid on a 46:38:26 & the Steve Goff on a 46:36:24 with 140mm Thorn cranks (prosthetic Left Knee and restricted bend of 92*) courtesy of SJS Cycles).

The 10spd Veloce cassettes are both 12:13:14:15:16:17:19:21:13:25

All are both built in all silver as I personally thought that the black finish on the Campy was ugly and unnecessarily expensive for something that was going to achieve the same result in the greater scheme of things.

The fact that I am a 72+yrs old pensioner and on fixed income was only part of my motive for building up the two naked frames into very very head turning steeds.

I don't known your age but think of the future and the possibility of not being able to turn big rings and the high likelihood that pre-owned of NOS components will be as scarce as hens teeth.

[Oxford_Guy]

I may be being stupid, but how do powershift and ultrashift chainsets differ?  As long as you have a square taper chainset you’ll be good to go.

Sorry, brain fart, I meant PowerTorque and UltraTorque chainsets, which are different

[Ian H]

If Andy Wilkinson can run a triple on his record-breaking do-it-all machine, I see no reason why you can't fit one to a Mercian.  Compacts are form over function silliness.

[Oxford_Guy]

Hi Oxford_Guy. I have 10spd Veloce on both of my road bikes albeit one is a 50cm Bianchi Via Nirone 7 Alu Carbon Flat Bar Hybrid and the other is a Steve Goff 51cm Dropped Bar regular road race bike.
Both are on triple Stronglight rings (hybrid on a 46:38:26 & the Steve Goff on a 46:36:24 with 140mm Thorn cranks (prosthetic Left Knee and restricted bend of 92*) courtesy of SJS Cycles).

The 10spd Veloce cassettes are both 12:13:14:15:16:17:19:21:13:25

I assume you meant 12:13:14:15:16:17:19:21:23:25 i.e. 12:25?

All are both built in all silver as I personally thought that the black finish on the Campy was ugly and unnecessarily expensive for something that was going to achieve the same result in the greater scheme of things.

I agree black finishes are ugly and only something to consider if going all-carbon (which I'm not)

The fact that I am a 72+yrs old pensioner and on fixed income was only part of my motive for building up the two naked frames into very very head turning steeds.

I don't known your age but think of the future and the possibility of not being able to turn big rings and the high likelihood that pre-owned of NOS components will be as scarce as hens teeth.

I'll be 50 next year (48 now, but 49 before the end of the year), have chronic (though only low-to-moderate) lower back pain (just wear and tear, no slipped discs or nerve pain) and slightly dodgy knees, though much better since arthroscopy operations on both some years back, so it's not so great for me to try to mash the pedals and honk up hills - on my tourer am more of a spinner. This does perhaps still suggest a triple, I guess, despite what Grant at Mercian suggested? I do want to be able to keep up with other club riders, though.

Perhaps something like a 48/36/26 triple and a Campag 12-27 (25.4" to 105.5") or 12-25 (27.4" to 105.5") cassette might suit? BTW the maximum luggage I will be carrying on this bike will be a medium-sized saddle bag at most (I have my Hewitt Cheviot for proper touring and am not specifying rack braze-ons). It's also only intended for spring/summer usage.

[Ian H]

Treat a triple as if it was a normal (not compact) double, with a bail-out inner. 

[Oxford_Guy]

If Andy Wilkinson can run a triple on his record-breaking do-it-all machine, I see no reason why you can't fit one to a Mercian.  Compacts are form over function silliness.

This?



I guess so, though looks like it will have to be non-Campagnolo, which I'm a little sad about...

BTW I currently have two Campagnolo Front Derailleurs I could use with a triple - a "QS" Comp Triple FD (to match the Comp Triple 50/40/30 chainset) and a non-QA Centaur Triple (which I'm guessing was orginally optimally designed for a 52 or 53/39/30 chainset), I guess either should work (if not optimally) with something different e.g. a non-campag 48/38/26 chainset?The rear derailleur I have is a relatively modern medium cage 10-speed Veloce (silver).

[Oxford_Guy]

Treat a triple as if it was a normal (not compact) double, with a bail-out inner.

What, 53/39? Would need a smallest chain ring of 13T to push that (e.g. 13-29), but I guess that's an option. Actually 53/39/28 and 13-29 would give me a range of 25.4" to 107.5" (or 105.4" for a 52T ring - which would be more usable), though think would prefer closer ratios on the cassette if going for a triple.

[Ian H]

Treat a triple as if it was a normal (not compact) double, with a bail-out inner.

What, 53/39? Would need a smallest chain ring of 13T to push that (e.g. 13-29), but I guess that's an option

By 'normal' I just mean not a stupid tooth difference. 

[Oxford_Guy]

Treat a triple as if it was a normal (not compact) double, with a bail-out inner.

What, 53/39? Would need a smallest chain ring of 13T to push that (e.g. 13-29), but I guess that's an option

By 'normal' I just mean not a stupid tooth difference.

Sorry, I see what you mean, so just 10-12 tooth difference, rather than 14.

If going for a non-Campag chainset, one based on Sugino XD2 cranks, like the Spa ones I linked to, does quite appeal, the finish (especially on the back) looks a little better than Stronglight

[Ian H]

E.g., my 'audax' bike has 48-38-26 (a TA chainset, rings available in any combination you like).

[Oxford_Guy]

E.g., my 'audax' bike has 48-38-26 (a TA chainset, rings available in any combination you like).

What cassette do you run with that and what BB?

[Ian H]

Still square-taper (bomb-proof) and 13-26

[Oxford_Guy]

Still square-taper (bomb-proof) and 13-26

Which square taper BB, though? SKF look pretty good for not too outrageous dosh. 12-25 or 12-27 also look okay with that chainset

[ACyclingRooster]

Hi again Oxford_Guy. Yes,that was a typo but the reason that I gave you all of the sprockets was there were other options but at stupid money and remember what I said about being a pensioner.

Which gear ratio site do you use ?  I am using this one and have for years :--http://jbarrm.com/cycal/cycal.html

[Oxford_Guy]

Hi again Oxford_Guy. Yes,that was a typo but the reason that I gave you all of the sprockets was there were other options but at stupid money and remember what I said about being a pensioner.

Which gear ratio site do you use ?  I am using this one and have for years :--http://jbarrm.com/cycal/cycal.html

I've been using these two:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html

Or the more visual:

http://ritzelrechner.de

I'll also take a look at the one you listed

[giropaul]

I, and others I know, successfully run a 11 speed chainset with 10 speed .It’s even better if you use a 10 speed super-narrow Campagnolo chain.

However, as a 10 speed user I have to report a growing difficulty in finding spare or replacement parts. If I was buying this bike I’d go for 11, maybe Potenza or Chorus.

[Blodwyn Pig]

What length of crank on your other bike(s) if also 175 personally I'd stick with what you've got as it's worked for you all these years! If you change it'll feel wrong , then you'll have to change other bikes to suit.

[Oxford_Guy]

I, and others I know, successfully run a 11 speed chainset with 10 speed .It’s even better if you use a 10 speed super-narrow Campagnolo chain.

I was intending to use an Ultra Narrow Record 10-speed chain

However, as a 10 speed user I have to report a growing difficulty in finding spare or replacement parts. If I was buying this bike I’d go for 11, maybe Potenza or Chorus.

With the exception of the (older) 11-speed Athena rear derailleur and chainset, the (new) 11-speed components are quite ugly, though, and the shifters don't sound as durable as the old 10-speed ones (too much plastic in the internals).

[Ian H]

Still square-taper (bomb-proof) and 13-26

Which square taper BB, though? SKF look pretty good for not too outrageous dosh. 12-25 or 12-27 also look okay with that chainset

Yer standard Shimano.  Last nearly for ever.

[Brucey]

since you already have the campag chainset and the 10s shifters, I'd suggest that you look to use them.

To my mind, if the stumbling block to this route is choosing/obtaining a suitable cassette, I'd suggest some creative thinking regarding this is warranted.

Basically there are two routes that would appeal to me

1) using a cassette that starts 13,15,17,19,.... aiming to use something like 50/19 as a 'tapping along' gear and

2) using a cassette that goes 12,13,14,15,16,... aiming to use 40/16 or 40/15 as a 'tapping along' gear. This would leave you with racing type gearing on the big ring, but with the third chainring for emergencies.

The choice between them would depend on how likely it is that you would find yourself needing to ride fast (eg in a fast group on a sportive), needing lots of gear ratios for cruising in the 20-25mph range.

BTW there are two ways of looking at the cassette;
a) as a consumable, to be replaced along with the chain and most-used chainring as necessary
b) as something to be protected from undue wear, by replacing chains very regularly (eg after ~1000 miles or so, or whenever they hit 0.5% wear)

the latter scheme, if implemented rigorously, means that you can make a cassette last tens of thousands of miles; it is not that the cassette doesn't wear, but it doesn't wear to match a worn chain, so there isn't likely to be skipping when a new chain is fitted, because the tooth shape is better maintained. Because the cassette lasts a very long time this way, the extra cost of a custom cassette (should it be required) is not unreasonable.

BTW I recently measured the mech movement if a shimano 11s RD is mated with a campag 10s shifter. It is almost right, but the mech overshifts slightly in the lower gears and the total cable pull is slightly longer than is required. I'm looking into workarounds for these problems.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

Brucey - the stumbling block seems to be that the 10-speed Campagnolo Comp Triple chainset I have has 175mm cranks which Mercian think would be way too long for me, they say I need 170mm... Don't think there are any issues with cassettes.

[Brucey]

well it won't hurt to try them and see how you get on? 

You absolutely cannot say (on the basis of leg length alone) whether a give crank length will suit a particular rider or not, and to slavishly follow that advice when you already have cranks to try seems a bit daft to me.

 The real (measured) correlation between leg length and crank length is a weak one; there are plenty of long-legged folk who use short cranks and short-legged folk who use long cranks. Personal preference and (presumably) personal physiology are more important.

For example I use 175mm cranks offroad and they (and the lower cadence they engender) seem OK. But on the road I prefer 170mm ones and (if I could but get them in a modern form) I am pretty sure I would prefer 6-5/8" cranks over that.  I can't say whether physiology or habituation are more important in framing these choices, but I only discovered what worked for me by trial and error, not because someone measured my legs and dictated to me.

cheers

[De Sisti]

If you've got a Shimano compatible wheel you could use 12-27 cassette with your Campag
10s stuff and it'd work. Ditch the 14t sproket and buy a 30t sproket from Highpath Engineering
and you'd have a 12/13/15/17/19/21/24/27/30. That's a good enough spread of gears. Isn't it?