Author Topic: Bike for PBP  (Read 7541 times)

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #25 on: 17 September, 2018, 12:13:16 pm »
four spokes on the same hub and rim will not make any noticeable difference with regards to speed. a different set wheels/tyres however can have a bigger impact on speed and acceleration than any other component on a bike. i am contemplating new wheels for pbp, just haven't made my mind yet about the one's that'll suit the best.

Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #26 on: 17 September, 2018, 10:55:37 pm »
IME it boils down to the difference between hoping that failure might not occur and knowing that it won't.  Yes, avoiding pot holes and other wheel wrecking hazards is common sense but not always possible in practice.  During last year's LEL I took this to the extreme and rode a hard tail mountain bike and was involved in an unfortunate collision with another rider on a road bike which ended his ride. Fortunately, despite some minor damage to the bike I was able to finish alongside the 60% of riders who made it back inside the time limit.  Yes of course their is a middle path and my choice of bike was extreme, but if the goal is to simply complete the ride in comfort and without worry of mechanical failure there are other more robust options to consider.
Most of the stuff I say is true because I saw it in a dream and I don't have the presence of mind to make up lies when I'm asleep.   Bryan Andreas

Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #27 on: 17 September, 2018, 11:29:44 pm »
I would hate to damage the Fratello in any way. It's a lovely bike and I would like to keep it that way for many years. The wheels are, in my opinion, too light for touring being 28 spoke and as I have a pair of 36 spoke wheels, I might just as well swap them over. If the frame will happily carry the weight then I would have no hesitation in using it. If there is any doubt, I would rather use something like a Thorn Club Tour which will carry it. However, I do not know how it rides unladen, (I have asked for an opinion on the Thorn forum). That is what I was not sure about and the reason I asked the question.

FWIW you may be able to have your cake and eat it, in that if you don't plan to camp during PBP, only whilst getting there, you can leave your extra gear in Paris. Thus you could (say) ditch your rack, panniers, tent, stronger rear tyre etc and use just a saddlebag/bar bag or something during the ride itself.

That is precisely what I intend to do. I would leave the tent pitched, remove the rack and panniers and just carry a saddle bag or similar.

I am very much a full value rider on audax events so speed is of limited importance to me, other than being able to make the time limit. I will almost certainly go for the 90 hour group and expect to use most of it. I do not want to spoil the occasion and fully understand how that may happen on a heavy bike, such as a LHT. The Fratello, whilst not being a really light bike, would always be my chosen ride mainly due to comfort.

Thank you all for your opinions. I'm very glad PBP is some time away.

Morat

  • I tried to HTFU but something went ping :(
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #28 on: 22 September, 2018, 10:33:30 pm »
BobScarle: Could you put your 36 spoke wheels on the bike and carry your lightweight wheels on your luggage somehow? I'm assuming here that you'll have some access to a left luggage facility before setting off on the PBP. If not, please ignore me.


I'm with Brucey and think that wheels should have plenty of spokes. 36 would be my choice. I'm also conflicted because I weigh 120Kg and reckon that if I buy a steel framed "light touring" bike in 61cm it should have come with something more suitable than these wheels: https://road.cc/content/review/172395-novatec-30-alu-clincher-wheelset I mean 20/24 spokes for a guy my size?

But it did - and after three years* of slapping into potholes and riding over horrible rural C roads they're still round and haven't required any maintenance.

Yet.

I know it's coming, but my plan was to ride them till they broke and then get something more sensible. So far we're still in phase one. At this rate I might just buy a spare set for £145 delivered. https://www.probikekit.co.uk/bicycle-wheels/novatec-30-clincher-wheelset/11666483.html

*OK, I don't ride anything like as much as most people on here. A realistic Strava based estimate is 3000 miles.
Everyone's favourite windbreak

Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #29 on: 23 September, 2018, 12:02:06 am »
What mountains is one likely to encounter on the way to PBP?

The Thais are likely to be riding into hills of North Vietnam to get some experience of climbing and cold weather.

Many nations have to go to altitude to avoid the heat prior to PBP. We have the luxury of relatively cool weather in July, assuming that we don't have another summer like this year.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #30 on: 23 September, 2018, 09:47:39 am »
You can *choose* to go downhill faster than you can see potholes, crash into one and spend a lifetime declaring modern bikes flimsy rubbish.

I'm sure everyone who has crashed into a pothole will agree with you.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #31 on: 23 September, 2018, 11:03:50 am »
I fail to see how a leisurely ride to PBP over several days, in August, presumably entirely in daylight, will involve enough unavoidable encounters with potholes to damage or destroy a wheel, even an "under built" one.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #32 on: 23 September, 2018, 11:19:05 am »
I fail to see how a leisurely ride to PBP over several days, in August, presumably entirely in daylight, will involve enough unavoidable encounters with potholes to damage or destroy a wheel, even an "under built" one.
Your comment is irrelevant.

(for one thing, crashes are rarely "unavoidable", but they still happen. It makes sense to mitigate risks - it's up-to the individual to decide the measures. Sometimes they may decide on measures that "grams" would not take - SHOCK! )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #33 on: 23 September, 2018, 08:43:38 pm »
I fail to see how a leisurely ride to PBP over several days, in August, presumably entirely in daylight, will involve enough unavoidable encounters with potholes to damage or destroy a wheel, even an "under built" one.

Your confidence in french road rebuilding skills is quaintly charming but it may be misplaced! (or your assessment may be based on a very low starting point!)

Samuel D

Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #34 on: 24 September, 2018, 08:58:45 am »
On the plus side, if a wheel problem ruins your PBP you can always try again in four years.

Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #35 on: 24 September, 2018, 10:25:18 am »
back in the far mists of time, when I knew less than nothing about anything, I naively loaded up a bike (that was almost new) with lots of clobber and set off touring, with a like minded chum. We just rode to Newhaven, got the ferry, and headed off. A few days later we were in Switzerland, and my rear wheel was already breaking spokes. I had taken a few spare spokes, almost run out of the things,  and at the rate I was going I would need a lot more before the trip was through.

I had already built a few wheels and I had stress-relieved those because that was recommended as 'standard practice'.  Those wheels had worked fine.  I'd bought a new bike shortly before this trip because my old touring bike was basically falling apart; it'd cope with day trips but further than that I wasn't so sure about it. Call me slow on the uptake but it hadn't occurred to me that anyone might sell a touring bike with wheels that hadn't been stress-relieved properly, so I didn't stress-relieve my nice new wheels before I went...

Colour me surprised when the spokes started breaking....  I remember sitting outside my tent one evening, practically oblivious to the balmy weather, the fantastic scenery etc, because I wrestling with wire spaghetti, my mind a fog of annoyance at the state of my rear wheel, and wondering if it would spoil the rest of the trip or indeed have me off the bike at some point.

I came to the conclusion that either

a) the spokes were badly manufactured and would break no matter what I did (something I'd already encountered) or
b) the wheel hadn't been correctly stress-relieved and doing a stress-relief treatment now might well do some good and probably wouldn't do any harm. 

So I set to, and stress-relieved the wheel.  I broke no more spokes on that trip, which included several thousand miles of loaded running, much of which was in the mountains.  The conclusion I came to was that perhaps only the spokes that broke were faulty, or the stress relief treatment had been effective. Now, I am pretty sure that the latter applies.   Note that the wheel remained rideable even with one broken spoke, so I wasn't greatly inconvenienced by the breakages, just worried/annoyed by them.

In the intervening years since then I have seen a lot more wheels do odd things and I have a few more ideas about how and why wheels fail or start to give trouble.  It is (of course) nowhere near as simple as 'lots of spokes = good, fewer spokes = bad' but there is almost no penalty (with any given rim etc) in having a few more spokes in the wheel and it brings several advantages. 

If you use a rim that is radially stiff enough, you can run with a reduced spoke count and the normal fatigue stresses that the spokes see can still be acceptable. However that a) doesn't guarantee that the rim is stiff enough laterally/torsionally to leave the wheel rideable should a spoke break (and if you do ride such a wheel with a broken spoke, the rim can take a set and wreck the wheel) , b) it doesn't mean the wheel is going to be stiff enough laterally, and c) it doesn't mean that you are any faster in the meantime, for having fewer spokes. So any wheel can be 'strong enough' for a particular task but that doesn't mean it will really be 'durable enough' for that service. A wheel that has a reduced spoke count (for any given rim/loading) sees considerably higher stresses, so why not have a few more spokes in it?

Also, a wheel that is doomed to break spokes (by fatigue) won't do so immediately; if it takes several hundred miles of heavily loaded touring to expose such weakness in wheels,  this might translate to several thousand miles of unladen riding before the same things start to be seen.  [A really good set of wheels ought to last tens of thousands of miles of unladen riding without breaking spokes, and at least many thousands of miles when loaded.]

So my concern is that a set of wheels that has been OK for a while when used unladen won't necessarily prove to be as reliable when used with a load on. If I broke a few spokes on the way to PBP, I know darned well I wouldn't enjoy the event itself in the same way as I would having not broken spokes previously, whether I broke any more during the event or not.

Knowing what I know now, I'd happily ride a pretty light wheel (the right ~480g rim with 36 DB spokes in it) with a 10-15 kg load sat on it, provided it had been properly built and stress-relieved.  There are lots of other wheels that I wouldn't be so confident in, even if they were heavier.

cheers

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #36 on: 25 September, 2018, 10:43:25 am »
What mountains is one likely to encounter on the way to PBP?

From here? The Ardennes...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #37 on: 25 September, 2018, 10:47:54 am »
Those are hills, not mountains.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #38 on: 25 September, 2018, 10:50:42 am »
If you live in Amsterdam, they probably feel like mountains.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #39 on: 25 September, 2018, 11:11:35 am »
Those are hills, not mountains.

Wikipedia begs to differ...

"...a region of extensive forests, rough terrain, rolling hills and ridges formed by the geological features of the Ardennes mountain range..."

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #40 on: 25 September, 2018, 11:16:48 am »
Still hills, not mountains...
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #41 on: 25 September, 2018, 11:45:09 am »
Wikipedia begs to differ...

Well, that settles it then.

I just looked up the highest point in Belgium. Apparently it's the Signal de Botrange, at 694m, which to be fair is somewhat higher than I expected. It's certainly higher than Snaefell on the Isle of Man (610m), which is colloquially known as "The Mountain". Mynydd Epynt in Wales is a mere 478m.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #42 on: 25 September, 2018, 11:53:54 am »
Wikipedia begs to differ...

Well, that settles it then.

I just looked up the highest point in Belgium. Apparently it's the Signal de Botrange, at 694m, which to be fair is somewhat higher than I expected. It's certainly higher than Snaefell on the Isle of Man (610m), which is colloquially known as "The Mountain". Mynydd Epynt in Wales is a mere 478m.

And they built a watch tower on it so that it would be 700m tall. It's an interesting ride to get to it. I've done the approach from both sides. Descending is interesting, as the cars get really annoyed at you when you overtake them... It's a 16km ascent at about 5% on average the whole way, if you do it from the North east (there is a similar route that is half off road too). I have a couple of DIY Audax routes that use the Signal as a control if anyone fancies the adventure.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #43 on: 25 September, 2018, 01:13:23 pm »
I have a couple of DIY Audax routes that use the Signal as a control if anyone fancies the adventure.

Tempting.

When I planned my DIY 600 to Germany and back last year, I aimed for Aachen as my turning point and took in the Vaalserberg (which definitely doesn't deserve to be called a mountain though it's the highest point in the Netherlands). Ivo suggested going to Monschau instead, which certainly looks much nicer than Aachen but makes for a significantly longer and lumpier route. Would be good to do that as an excuse to go via the Signal de Botrange though.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #44 on: 25 September, 2018, 02:02:19 pm »
I have a couple of DIY Audax routes that use the Signal as a control if anyone fancies the adventure.

Tempting.

When I planned my DIY 600 to Germany and back last year, I aimed for Aachen as my turning point and took in the Vaalserberg (which definitely doesn't deserve to be called a mountain though it's the highest point in the Netherlands). Ivo suggested going to Monschau instead, which certainly looks much nicer than Aachen but makes for a significantly longer and lumpier route. Would be good to do that as an excuse to go via the Signal de Botrange though.

Monschau is next to the Vennbahn. From Luxembourg or from Aachen you can get to it without any major climbing as it's a disused railway. It's quite nice. You can do a surprising amount of riding in the Ardennes using the disused railways (Ravel routes), which makes for almost sensible riding.

I did a 116km DIY from Valkenberg to the Signal and back, with 1300m of climbing, which was tough for an Amsterdam resident. I'm pondering rejigging it to get 1500m of climbing for a single AA point.

I've also got a 400 Aachen-Luxembourg-Aachen, but I haven't riden it yet.

The 200 I was thinking of when I made my original post, it seems my memory was slightly off, it goes round the signal, but doesn't go over it. Using the Vennbahn, it gets close. Wouldn't be too hard to make it take in the signal.

It's a shame randonneurs.nl don't offer perms or DIY's, I'd love to offer a couple of perms round this area.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

rob

Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #45 on: 25 September, 2018, 02:24:49 pm »
The Dutch Capitals 1400k controlled at Drielandenpunt.   I have some photos somewhere from 2012.

Made it through the hills round there on a 70" fixed.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #46 on: 25 September, 2018, 04:08:23 pm »


It's unriden, but this is the sort of thing I was thinking of. Starts in Aachen, ends at the 3 country point 200km. Pretty damn flat. Might have to give it a go when I have a spare weekend.

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/28669703

J

(might have to fork this thread, this has gone way off topic...)
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #47 on: 25 September, 2018, 08:31:23 pm »
I did this very similar route earlier in the year:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1478465273

The climb to the three country point from the Dutch side maybe isn’t a mountain but I’d happily describe it as a bastard hill.

The Vennbahn varies a bit in quality. As I recall the southern bits don’t have a proper surface and at some point you get booted off it onto foot paths, although I think your route covers that.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #48 on: 25 September, 2018, 08:41:20 pm »
I did this very similar route earlier in the year:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1478465273

The climb to the three country point from the Dutch side maybe isn’t a mountain but I’d happily describe it as a bastard hill.

Yeah, I've done that climb from all three sides. The climbs in Limberg can be an utter bastard. A lot of people don't realise how evil the climbs down that way can be. They may be no alps, but they have their own punch.

Quote

The Vennbahn varies a bit in quality. As I recall the southern bits don’t have a proper surface and at some point you get booted off it onto foot paths, although I think your route covers that.

Yeah, I've done the whole length of the Vennbahn at some point or other, after years of Sustrans, it's like heaven... but you have a very valid point...

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Bike for PBP
« Reply #49 on: 25 September, 2018, 08:43:56 pm »
Wikipedia begs to differ...

Well, that settles it then.

I just looked up the highest point in Belgium. Apparently it's the Signal de Botrange, at 694m, which to be fair is somewhat higher than I expected. It's certainly higher than Snaefell on the Isle of Man (610m), which is colloquially known as "The Mountain". Mynydd Epynt in Wales is a mere 478m.

And they built a watch tower on it so that it would be 700m tall. It's an interesting ride to get to it. I've done the approach from both sides. Descending is interesting, as the cars get really annoyed at you when you overtake them... It's a 16km ascent at about 5% on average the whole way, if you do it from the North east (there is a similar route that is half off road too). I have a couple of DIY Audax routes that use the Signal as a control if anyone fancies the adventure.

J

Funny stuff, language. I checked in my (very small) Collins dictionary and mynydd is indeed translated as a mountain but mynyddig (the derived adjective) can mean hilly and mynydd-dir is hill country. My forbears had a poetic sense of words! Of course the Eppynt ranges were not mountain ranges but shooting ranges. Are they still or has the land been given back to the sheep (who were always co-existing with the shells and grenades)?
Altitude is not the only indication of mountainous territory eg the Beckton Alps (if they haven't been bulldozed by now).

How close does the PBP route go to the the Alpes Mancelles? I can't picture the route but probably a bit to the south. The summit of the Alpes Mancelles is the Mont du Haut-Fourché at 217m.

Incidentally I am bemused by the notion of a continuous climb at an average of 5%. Over 16kms that gives me 800m of denivelé! (50m/km x 16 - I blame it on those dastardly feet and inches!)