Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Topic started by: Kim on 26 August, 2020, 10:16:33 pm
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I had a chat with a man in orange hi-vis this afternoon, as I was thwarted by an extremely closed road (damn you HS2). I explained that, as a cyclist, it's usually worth continuing past road closed signs to have a look, because the majority of the time you can wheel your bike past the obstruction. He told me that "ROAD CLOSED" just means to motor vehicles, and the "NO THROUGH ROAD" sign means it's blocked for everyone.
I'd never heard of that before. I always assumed that the white on red "NO THROUGH ROAD" sign was just a temporary version of *googles* the Diagram 816 one, which is clearly for vehicular traffic (with an optional exception for cyclists), not pedestrians.
Can anyone provide a reference? Google is failing me...
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The only they-really-mean-it CLOSED road I've encountered is this one, also for HS2:
https://goo.gl/maps/NW1R6R5xMRCgfVwu5
It's been obliterated under a construction site for ~10 years. Still has the normal ROAD CLOSED sign.
I've also noticed that many closed roads would be passable by a commonplace four-wheeled horseless carriage as often they've only dug up a small bit of the road.
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My understanding is that the signs mean pretty much what they say and that Road Closed means from that point and No Through means the road is still open up until it becomes Road Closed.
They're all pretty ambiguous, somewhere there should be a notice of the order that granted the closure. When you apply for one you have to specify who it applies to. You then have to employ an approved traffic management company to organise diversions and consult with stakeholders. If the temporary order applies to pedestrians and/or cyclists then the same applies and diversions have to be provided for them. You're not going to include them unless you have to, so orders are usually for vehicles which the legislation defines as motor vehicles. My experience with this is dated, it's also for closing roads for events rather than roadworks, but it was the same forms and I'm pretty sure the same regulation.
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It really would make life easier if there *was* an 'including pedestrians' variant of the "ROAD CLOSED" sign, assuming that people used it consistently.
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The only they-really-mean-it CLOSED road I've encountered is this one, also for HS2:
https://goo.gl/maps/NW1R6R5xMRCgfVwu5
It's been obliterated under a construction site for ~10 years. Still has the normal ROAD CLOSED sign.
I'm not sure that it's quite that long. I did lift both myself and bike over two 2m fences up there when they first started, but have mostly given up now and go around.
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It really would make life easier if there *was* an 'including pedestrians' variant of the "ROAD CLOSED" sign, assuming that people used it consistently.
Such signs are available, though I don't know the regulations for them and consistency is lacking. Here's a local one where the contractor has removed any doubt, they've also signed the cycle diversion.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50274291172_a1f43f3d7e.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jAyTeE)Roadworks (https://flic.kr/p/2jAyTeE) by Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phbike/), on Flickr
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He told me that "ROAD CLOSED" just means to motor vehicles
About 10 years ago I went past a Road Closed sign near Stratford upon Avon to find the reason was work on a railway bridge under which the road ran. A chap there asked me to wait while a piece of machinery finished its immediate job, and told me that they have to maintain pedestrian access so it was no problem my appearing. If no access had been allowed there would have been a several mile diversion to get to the next crossing of the railway, so I could see the reasoning.
I like that multiple conflicting sign above - "strictly no pedestrian or cyclist access" and " access to frontages only".
Some years ago, on tour in France, I ignored the usual road closed countdown boards to find that the closure was due to work on a level crossing where there was a big sign saying "no pedestrians either". I almost imagine the invisible ink saying "yah boo sucks, we told you so!"
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This might be some sort of guideline or rule of practice for temporary signs at roadworks (though I'm not sure I've ever seen one of those saying "No through road") but certainly the standard No through road sign (the red and white T on blue background) often doesn't apply to pedestrians and cyclists. Though equally often it does. Sometimes there's a sign underneath telling you "Except..." but often there isn't, even though you can get through. Perhaps the extra plates are only used if the sign went up after a certain date?
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I thought a TRO could apply to vehicles or pedestrians or both. Most are just vehicular. When ridden a bicycle is a vehicle, when being wheeled by a pedestrian, it is not.
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Don’t know but there’s been three road closed that have meant me turning round.
A bridge was out and no obvious way to get round.
Pylons near a substation were having cables replaced and lots of cables across road at varying heights as they attached and tensioned new ones.
Fencing that had been placed across full width of road with a trench beyond. High banks with no obvious way into fields to bypass. This latter one there was a parallel lane not far away so didn’t try too hard to be fair.
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There was fuss and bother locally a couple of years ago when they put in a contra flow cycle lane down a one way street. It meant they had to remove the “no entry” signs and change them to “no motor vehicles”, which then meant cars driven by stupid people turned in as well. I am not sure of the current status.
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There was fuss and bother locally a couple of years ago when they put in a contra flow cycle lane down a one way street. It meant they had to remove the “no entry” signs and change them to “no motor vehicles”, which then meant cars driven by stupid people turned in as well. I am not sure of the current status.
Plenty round here just use an "except cycles" sign with the traditional no entry. There's probably some subtle legal distinction.
We also have "bus gates" which use a *blue* bus and bike sign as a motor vehicle prohibition. Motorists are completely oblivious to them. I have some sympathy from a human interface design POV.
I'm not sure that it's quite that long. I did lift both myself and bike over two 2m fences up there when they first started, but have mostly given up now and go around.
2018-2026, so not far off. If you did that now you'd probably fall into a very big hole.
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/06/11/new-photos-show-hs2s-southern-tunnel-portal/
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I know the “no entry except cycles” was an illegal sign and was only allowed by the department for transport for limited test studies monitoring its effectiveness. That was a few years ago.it could be
1. No entry except for cycles are now allowed by dft
2. These are “test schemes”
3. The local authority is ignoring the fact they are not allowed.
Edit. It is 1. Changed in 2012. Time flies.
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There was fuss and bother locally a couple of years ago when they put in a contra flow cycle lane down a one way street. It meant they had to remove the “no entry” signs and change them to “no motor vehicles”, which then meant cars driven by stupid people turned in as well. I am not sure of the current status.
Plenty round here just use an "except cycles" sign with the traditional no entry. There's probably some subtle legal distinction.
I think the law was changed to allow this a few years ago. Previously, it would have had to be the no motor vehicles sign as Davef describes. Because sometimes sign makers don't think about the people who have to interpret the signs.
We also have "bus gates" which use a *blue* bus and bike sign as a motor vehicle prohibition. Motorists are completely oblivious to them. I have some sympathy from a human interface design POV.
We've got a couple of those, installed just a month or so ago. Presumably there's some legal reason they can't use a no motor vehicles sign or even better, a no entry except (buses, taxis, m/cs, pedal cycles) sign. I suppose it's because sometimes sign makers don't think about the people who have to interpret the signs. Though part of the obliviousness in this case is because there's nowhere to turn round once you've seen the signs even if you do understand them; because sometimes sign makers don't think about the people who have to interpret the signs.
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The “no motor vehicles” sign, also known as “the flying motorbike” or “no jumping motorbikes over cars” sign.
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The new gates in Lewisham have the "no cars" sign (black car in red circle) because they allow motorbikes and buses, as well as cycles through.
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There was fuss and bother locally a couple of years ago when they put in a contra flow cycle lane down a one way street. It meant they had to remove the “no entry” signs and change them to “no motor vehicles”, which then meant cars driven by stupid people turned in as well. I am not sure of the current status.
Plenty round here just use an "except cycles" sign with the traditional no entry. There's probably some subtle legal distinction.
I think the law was changed to allow this a few years ago. Previously, it would have had to be the no motor vehicles sign as Davef describes. Because sometimes sign makers don't think about the people who have to interpret the signs.
We also have "bus gates" which use a *blue* bus and bike sign as a motor vehicle prohibition. Motorists are completely oblivious to them. I have some sympathy from a human interface design POV.
We've got a couple of those, installed just a month or so ago. Presumably there's some legal reason they can't use a no motor vehicles sign or even better, a no entry except (buses, taxis, m/cs, pedal cycles) sign. I suppose it's because sometimes sign makers don't think about the people who have to interpret the signs. Though part of the obliviousness in this case is because there's nowhere to turn round once you've seen the signs even if you do understand them; because sometimes sign makers don't think about the people who have to interpret the signs.
The blue is a permissioning in this case, or ordering as in minimum speed limit as I understand it. Similarly used in H&S Signs - Green = Safe (emergency exit), Red triangle = Verboten (no confined space entry without permit), Blue circle = Do this (Eye protection), yellow triangle = Hazard (hot surface)
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The blue is a permissioning
Yes, what's unclear is why the TRO had to be framed as a permission rather than an exclusion. I'm sure there is a reason!
The equally if not more important question is why so few people recognise the signs.
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Such signs are available, though I don't know the regulations for them and consistency is lacking.
I've seen such signs, though as you say, there's no consistency in how they're used.
From next week, the road I live on will be closed every night for three weeks for resurfacing. Remains to be seen how this will affect me getting home from the station in the evening. Resurfacing means the whole width of the road will be dug up, and there's no footway to get round it on.
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Such signs are available, though I don't know the regulations for them and consistency is lacking.
I've seen such signs, though as you say, there's no consistency in how they're used.
From next week, the road I live on will be closed every night for three weeks for resurfacing. Remains to be seen how this will affect me getting home from the station in the evening. Resurfacing means the whole width of the road will be dug up, and there's no footway to get round it on.
I recon they'll do one half of the roadway at a time.
You may have to tip-toe across the freshly-laid tarmac on the cooler half ;)
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I thought a TRO could apply to vehicles or pedestrians or both. Most are just vehicular. When ridden a bicycle is a vehicle, when being wheeled by a pedestrian, it is not.
The TRO can list the classes of vehicle the road is closed to, temporary signs are much less regulated than normal ones, yet still there are plenty of howlers out there in normal signs.
Plenty round here just use an "except cycles" sign with the traditional no entry. There's probably some subtle legal distinction.
No entry "Except" is a newish concept, there is significant difference in meaning between a no entry sign and a no motor vehicles, IIRC the first applies only to that point in space, where as the later applies to the whole road, which is considerably more useful where you want to restrict a roadway to certain vehicles, e.g. bus stances outside a hopsital, what I've never got is why "No Motorvehicles except cycles" is an accepted variant.
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Going back to Kim’s original experience, HS2 are different to Local Authorities ( with whom they can be at odds), utility companies etc. They have a record of blocking rights of way using specialist “ security” operatives, using very heavy handed tactics. The view of HS2 Ltd is often “ we’re the Government, we’re above the usual laws”.
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Going back to Kim’s original experience, HS2 are different to Local Authorities ( with whom they can be at odds), utility companies etc. They have a record of blocking rights of way using specialist “ security” operatives, using very heavy handed tactics. The view of HS2 Ltd is often “ we’re the Government, we’re above the usual laws”.
HS2 was authorised by passing primary legislation that overrides the usual laws, so they're not wrong.
(well they might still be wrong on the details of what they're allowed to do)
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I rode past a "ROAD CLOSED" with "NO ACCESS TO $FOOBAR ROAD FOR PEDESTRIANS AND CYCLISTS" sign earlier. :thumbsup:
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We rode through 3 road closed signs today and ony once dismounted and resorted to a pavement.
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I recon they'll do one half of the roadway at a time.
Correct! I'm sure last time they did it they did the whole width of the road at once, but I'm probably misremembering.
They've already done the bit directly outside our house, so one way or another I will be able to negotiate my way round the works without needing to tread on wet tarmac when I'm back to commuting next week.
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I rode through a road closed sign and came to a gap where a bridge should be. That was properly closed.
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I rode through a road closed sign and came to a gap where a bridge should be. That was properly closed.
Surely that should be "Road properly open"?
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I rode through a road closed sign and came to a gap where a bridge should be. That was properly closed.
Try telling Evel Knievel that...
On a ride a couple of weeks ago, I came across a closure where the whole road had been wiped off the face of the earth - it had been dug up to make way for a hyperspace bypass new housing estate. Even if I could have got past the big metal fences, there was nothing but a big expanse of bare earth to ride on.
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When riding across the Nether Regions once, we decided to divert into a handy village in search of coffee and sticky buns. They'd dug up the whole main street, including the pavement, and left a Several of hundreds of yards of rather lovely, but hopeless for cycling, sand in its place. I don't think there was a sign at all, but being staunch BRITONS we dragged our machines through anyway, and were duly rewarded with both coffee and sticky buns.
This was after we missed a sign and ended up having to lift our velos over the armco onto the fietspad before the road we found ourselves on turned into a motorway. This sort of thing happens all the time when you let Mike Burrows navigate ;D
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The Belgians and the Spanish, in my experience, often favour taking a road away to mend it.
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I rode through a road closed sign and came to a gap where a bridge should be. That was properly closed.
Well, that beats climbing down from the road onto the exposed arch and then back up from it onto the other abutment.
I've been a cross a bridge that should have been closed to me, but the operators don't have a method of closing the walkway when there's someone threatening to jump.
That was um... interesting.
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I rode through a road closed sign and came to a gap where a bridge should be. That was properly closed.
Well, that beats climbing down from the road onto the exposed arch and then back up from it onto the other abutment.
I've been a cross a bridge that should have been closed to me, but the operators don't have a method of closing the walkway when there's someone threatening to jump.
That was um... interesting.
I was heading towards Godalming station once and chanced upon a road closure sign. Being on my bike I scoffed at it and roade past. A mile further down the road I encountered the reason - Orange Army working on the level crossing. No I wasn't allowed to walk across but it would have been pointless anyway as the line was closed so no trains.
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A few years ago when there were redoubling the line between Kemble and Swindon, I wanted to use the crossing at Minety, a village just south of Kemble. During the redoubling, the crossing was being modernised from manual to remote (I think, though perhaps it's automatic) operation and in fact at the moment I arrived, the Orange Army were hauling some heavy cables or something across the track. I was expecting to have to wait and probably walk across but no, they were so keen to let me ride across that one of them ran ahead of me to open the wicket gate!
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No entry "Except" is a newish concept, there is significant difference in meaning between a no entry sign and a no motor vehicles...
The whole problem seems to be sloppy thinking. To me, the two are entirely different.
No Entry has no bearing on whether vehicles are allowed or not in the road beyond the sign. It simply means that they (including bikes) are not allowed to go in by that way. The obvious examples are to prevent drivers from mistakenly going into car parks and one-way streets via the exits, but plainly vehicles are allowed in both of those.
Road closure signs suspend the right to go into the road at all. But whose rights? The right to use the road in the first place derives from being a citizen (or guest) in the country, and not from the vehicle that you are using at the time (there are restrictions of course on use of some vehicles, but that's not the point here). Roads are for pedestrians, horse traffic, cyclists, drivers and any other legitimate users that I may have missed. So what does a road closure mean? Almost never that pedestrians are excluded, excepting some examples above. Bikes? Not really clear. I agree that, in most cases, workmen tend to be accommodating if the cyclist is polite, but who knows what the legal position is because, prima facie, road closed ought to exclude pedestrians, so the order must have been made to do something more specific than close the road.
Flying motorbike signs reflect motor-vehicle exclusion orders, which are clearer. However, we are told, and in spite of driving tests and Highway Codes, not enough drivers understand them, so No Entry signs which, as above, mean something quite different, get used instead.
Our council got in a bit of a mess like this. They made a motor-vehicle exclusion order for the High Street, but it was talked about as "pedestrianisation", which it isn't of course. Seemingly, the council officers didn't understand their own order, and briefed their enforcement team and the police to enforce a non-existent ban on cycling. This is an issue when the place is full of coffee shops that attract a fair number of visiting cyclists, on top of a reasonable number of local utility riders.
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No Entry has no bearing on whether vehicles are allowed or not in the road beyond the sign. It simply means that they (including bikes) are not allowed to go in by that way. The obvious examples are to prevent drivers from mistakenly going into car parks and one-way streets via the exits, but plainly vehicles are allowed in both of those.
A few years ago here they wanted to make several side streets off Whiteladies Road, a busy road on a bit of a hill, one way away from the main road. The intention was to stop people doing risky turns onto the busy, steep road. Residents of the affected streets pointed out this would force them to drive through a network of back streets in order to get anywhere by car, which wasn't really what anyone wanted. So a compromise was reached of installing No Entry signs at strategic points so that you could still drive in both directions from those streets but not into them. The point being literally a point (okay, a line) on which No Entry acted like a one-way valve with two-way traffic both sides of the line.
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We have those too - they sometimes occur in conjunction with cycle exclusions of course. Which really just emphasises the point that they are quite different in meaning from road closure signs.
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Last weekend we rode past about 15 in a row from Winchelsea Beach towards Battery Hill. It was fine, but could have been chaos if all the beach drivers had decided to go that way.
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The Belgians and the Spanish, in my experience, often favour taking a road away to mend it.
On my way to Hell, it was near dusk, and I cycled past a sign, in Norwegian, in the middle of the road.
As I'm riding along I come to a bit where they seem to have removed the top layer of tarmac for about 3-4m. I carefully step down, ride across, and lift by bike up.
A few hundred meters further on. Same again. This happens 3 more times.
Then after a few hundred meters I find they've taken the next layer as well, so it's a good 150-200mm missing. Fair enough, I get off, carry the bike down, across and back up. Get back on. Again, 2 more times, this happens.
Then a few hundred meters further on, i find they've removed even more, quite a lot more, several tons more. Oh, and parked a Cat in the hole...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eh4wKpKWAAE3Tmy?format=jpg&name=large)
So, turns out the sign I went past meant "road closed". The diversion to go round it was 88km... and involves a 700+m ascent...
I climbed over the armco, down the embankment through the tracks the cat had made, and up the ramp they had made so the cat could get into the hole. Said hello (In my finest English accent), to the very confused builders, and got back on my bike. Several hundred meters further on, I found the same thing, but without the cat in it. After my little climbing adventure, I slowly made my way between the tarmacing vehicles, saying hello to the workmen (again playing the confused lost tourist), before getting into clear road. Repeat the several sections of 150mm deep, then just the top layer, then eventually getting beyond the road works, and onto clear road...
Was an interesting experience. I bivvi'd down for the night just beyond the works, thinking that there was a gas station in 4km, and I could get up and go there for breakfast. It was -4°C that night, and my 2°C sleeping bag wasn't quite upto it. Amazing view, full on million star job, but cold. Very cold. When the sun rose I rode up an empty road (turns out noone was coming down here cos of the road works), for 40km to the nearest gas station, as the one 4km away was closed down. 40km sub zero fasted rides are... interesting.
Amazing scenery tho...
J
PS This is the diversion for those curious: https://goo.gl/maps/wHnPD3kQjrMUWFWa7
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Was an interesting experience. I bivvi'd down for the night just beyond the works, thinking that there was a gas station in 4km, and I could get up and go there for breakfast. It was -4°C that night, and my 2°C sleeping bag wasn't quite upto it. Amazing view, full on million star job, but cold. Very cold. When the sun rose I rode up an empty road (turns out noone was coming down here cos of the road works), for 40km to the nearest gas station, as the one 4km away was closed down. 40km sub zero fasted rides are... interesting.
For a second I thought this was going to be a case of "kilometres" and "Norwegian kilometres". ;D
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For a second I thought this was going to be a case of "kilometres" and "Norwegian kilometres". ;D
The difference, presumably, being whether or not you use the tunnel.
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The new gates in Lewisham have the "no cars" sign (black car in red circle) because they allow motorbikes and buses, as well as cycles through.
Aha. That explains why white (and other coloured) vans seem to be driving through so many of them regardless ::-)
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For a second I thought this was going to be a case of "kilometres" and "Norwegian kilometres". ;D
The difference, presumably, being whether or not you use the tunnel.
In an early issue of Cyclist, they did a Big Ride in Norway and found that the entrance to one of the tunnels on their route was blocked by a landslide. Instead of going the very, very long way round, they decided to climb over the landslide and use the tunnel anyway.
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In an early issue of Cyclist, they did a Big Ride in Norway and found that the entrance to one of the tunnels on their route was blocked by a landslide. Instead of going the very, very long way round, they decided to climb over the landslide and use the tunnel anyway.
Norwegians have some crazy ideas about cyclists and tunnels. On one tour I've been planning, there's a 2km tunnel that doesn't allow bikes. To go round is 600km.
I'm pondering if there's another option, maybe take a taxi through? maybe just ignore the sign... maybe a boat... maybe do it in winter when the fjord is frozen, and just ride round it that way...
J
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Is that very near the North Cape? I went to a talk by someone and their solution was to ride through at 3 am.
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Is that very near the North Cape? I went to a talk by someone and their solution was to ride through at 3 am.
200km as the crow flies... so by Norwegian standards, right next door...
J
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Tunnels in Norway that are closed to cyclists usually have a free bus. No problem with a loaded up tandem getting on. 😄
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Tunnels in Norway that are closed to cyclists usually have a free bus. No problem with a loaded up tandem getting on. 😄
Not year round they don't...
J
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The A76 was "closed" on the Border Raid 600 last year. Although actually what this meant was you got to cycle on 10km of traffic free tarmac with a few cone-chicanes. Any diversion would have been substantial as the nearest N-S road in the borders is the old A74 service road about 20km to the east. They had a couple of construction vehicles parked at each end but the drivers were asleep. I got to the far end, where I knew there was a side route and wasn't sure if the road would genuinely be closed, so tapped on the window of the construction vehicle to ask if it was OK to continue and nearly gave the occupant a heart attack.
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Came across a road closure yesterday and did the usual thing of going up to it to see if there was a path round the roadworks to the side.
Once I got near it, an automatic speaker started playing, which was very reminiscent of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk9WcXbkjaI&feature=youtu.be&t=46 ;D
(I presume it was to deter against local neds nicking the diggers, but sounded just like that )
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I road through some roadworks this afternoon. They were there (with temporary lights) for the express purpose of shielding workers (who had already gone) working on a roadside water leak, evidenced by the remaining puddle. We get a lot of leaks in the rural verges around here. I waited for the oncoming car to clear the light, then set off through the red, riding on the “wrong” side of the cones. Heard a blast of horn behind me, not from a following car, but the one going in the opposite direction, presumably complaining about my manoeuvre.