Post by: Geriatricdolan on 15 April, 2021, 04:28:06 pm
When I did BCM in 2018, there were rumours of a guy wanting to "beat the record" and then afterwards rumours that another cyclist had beaten the record (24 hours apparently)...
Is there such a thing as a record for the BCM?
Is there any other long brevet which has some sort of "unofficial record"?
Asking for a friend, of course... ;D
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 16 April, 2021, 08:33:50 am
Post by: Hot Flatus on 16 April, 2021, 08:45:50 am
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=104545.msg2313671#msg2313671
Post by: Davef on 16 April, 2021, 10:18:43 am
Post by: Hot Flatus on 16 April, 2021, 10:35:02 am
Post by: felstedrider on 16 April, 2021, 10:52:42 am
Post by: Davef on 16 April, 2021, 10:58:10 am
He's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
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Post by: Hot Flatus on 16 April, 2021, 11:05:13 am
Post by: Hot Flatus on 16 April, 2021, 11:08:38 am
He's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you met Toby?
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 16 April, 2021, 11:53:46 am
Have you tried asking yourself?
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=104545.msg2313671#msg2313671
I never improved from that superficial knowledge... still don't know who or when, I just know it was a smidge under 24 hours... would be nice to know if anyone knows more, or if there is some secret society within AUK who keeps track of these things... obviously if your name is not chiselled in a stone somewhere in the centre of Chepstow is not worth bothering, me thinks... ;D
... always asking for a friend, of course...
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 16 April, 2021, 01:19:47 pm
Whether someone would be inclined to retrieve that information is another matter.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 16 April, 2021, 01:23:21 pm
Bryan Chapman memorial is a BRM, so all times will have been submitted to and recorded by ACP. I know I could see all my brevet times when entering PBP
Whether someone would be inclined to retrieve that information is another matter.
Yeah...
It did seem to be "a thing" on the day though... people talking about this guy and that guy going for the record... I find it odd that there is no knowledge about such record.
To add to the mix of rumours, I have heard that Richie Tout himself had done it in 24 hours, which seems to be the magic figure.
Post by: Davef on 16 April, 2021, 01:45:42 pm
No, but just now strava suggested I follow Fiona kolbinger. Her ride at the weekend was 319km, 6000m+ of climbing, average power 215W. Ride time 13 hours, stopped time ..... 7 minutes.He's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you met Toby?
Post by: Lightning Phil on 16 April, 2021, 01:49:43 pm
No, but just now strava suggested I follow Fiona kolbinger. Her ride at the weekend was 319km, 6000m+ of climbing, average power 215W. Ride time 13 hours, stopped time ..... 7 minutes.He's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you met Toby?
I’ve got my stopped time down to 30-45 mins on 200km audaxes. But compared to 7 mins I’m light years away. Clearly she’s eating on the bike a lot more than I. As to average power I’ll just laugh, as I’m nowhere near that for 13 hours riding...
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 16 April, 2021, 02:00:51 pm
No, but just now strava suggested I follow Fiona kolbinger. Her ride at the weekend was 319km, 6000m+ of climbing, average power 215W. Ride time 13 hours, stopped time ..... 7 minutes.He's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you met Toby?
She has become awesome... I remember Fiona at LWL in 2018, before anyone had ever heard of her... I'm pretty sure we finished ahead of her by quite some margin... then again, maybe she was tapering... ::-)
Post by: John Stonebridge on 16 April, 2021, 02:01:25 pm
I think it would have been in around 24 hrs though Im sure that others here will know better.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 16 April, 2021, 02:09:25 pm
I think that Gethin Butler rode the Daylight 600km in 2003 and was trusted with the Dalmeny Village Hall key as something of a cert for first home.
I think it would have been in around 24 hrs though Im sure that others here will know better.
He was probably taking easy then... I would expect him to go around a 600 in 20 hours comfortably :P
Post by: Davef on 16 April, 2021, 02:19:20 pm
I did 180km in 5:30 elapsed in 2017 with less than a minute of stoppage. Looking back I am not quite sure how, particularly as it was preceded by a 4km swim and followed by running a marathon.No, but just now strava suggested I follow Fiona kolbinger. Her ride at the weekend was 319km, 6000m+ of climbing, average power 215W. Ride time 13 hours, stopped time ..... 7 minutes.He's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you met Toby?
I’ve got my stopped time down to 30-45 mins on 200km audaxes. But compared to 7 mins I’m light years away. Clearly she’s eating on the bike a lot more than I. As to average power I’ll just laugh, as I’m nowhere near that for 13 hours riding...
Post by: Hot Flatus on 16 April, 2021, 02:32:33 pm
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 16 April, 2021, 02:41:27 pm
Bet you've never won an audax though...
I won many... ;D
It still bothers me that "I lost" a Castleton Classic 200, when I took a diversion to avoid the A515...
Losing a Classic is so very annoying... ;D
Post by: Lightning Phil on 16 April, 2021, 02:42:03 pm
I did 180km in 5:30 elapsed in 2017 with less than a minute of stoppage. Looking back I am not quite sure how, particularly as it was preceded by a 4km swim and followed by running a marathon.No, but just now strava suggested I follow Fiona kolbinger. Her ride at the weekend was 319km, 6000m+ of climbing, average power 215W. Ride time 13 hours, stopped time ..... 7 minutes.He's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you met Toby?
I’ve got my stopped time down to 30-45 mins on 200km audaxes. But compared to 7 mins I’m light years away. Clearly she’s eating on the bike a lot more than I. As to average power I’ll just laugh, as I’m nowhere near that for 13 hours riding...
When you’ve got someone ahead to chase and someone behind chasing and the event is time based, a race. It makes all the difference. Which iron man triathlon was it?
Post by: Davef on 16 April, 2021, 02:48:43 pm
Bet you've never won an audax though...Not since they got finicky about ebikes
Post by: Davef on 16 April, 2021, 02:49:10 pm
AustriaI did 180km in 5:30 elapsed in 2017 with less than a minute of stoppage. Looking back I am not quite sure how, particularly as it was preceded by a 4km swim and followed by running a marathon.No, but just now strava suggested I follow Fiona kolbinger. Her ride at the weekend was 319km, 6000m+ of climbing, average power 215W. Ride time 13 hours, stopped time ..... 7 minutes.He's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you met Toby?
I’ve got my stopped time down to 30-45 mins on 200km audaxes. But compared to 7 mins I’m light years away. Clearly she’s eating on the bike a lot more than I. As to average power I’ll just laugh, as I’m nowhere near that for 13 hours riding...
When you’ve got someone ahead to chase and someone behind chasing and the event is time based, a race. It makes all the difference. Which iron man triathlon was it?
Post by: Lightning Phil on 16 April, 2021, 02:53:37 pm
AustriaI did 180km in 5:30 elapsed in 2017 with less than a minute of stoppage. Looking back I am not quite sure how, particularly as it was preceded by a 4km swim and followed by running a marathon.No, but just now strava suggested I follow Fiona kolbinger. Her ride at the weekend was 319km, 6000m+ of climbing, average power 215W. Ride time 13 hours, stopped time ..... 7 minutes.He's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you met Toby?
I’ve got my stopped time down to 30-45 mins on 200km audaxes. But compared to 7 mins I’m light years away. Clearly she’s eating on the bike a lot more than I. As to average power I’ll just laugh, as I’m nowhere near that for 13 hours riding...
When you’ve got someone ahead to chase and someone behind chasing and the event is time based, a race. It makes all the difference. Which iron man triathlon was it?
That’s a country, did the event have a name?
Edit - found you, 58th in your gender and age group. Well done.
Post by: Davef on 16 April, 2021, 02:57:09 pm
Ironman Austria :-)AustriaI did 180km in 5:30 elapsed in 2017 with less than a minute of stoppage. Looking back I am not quite sure how, particularly as it was preceded by a 4km swim and followed by running a marathon.No, but just now strava suggested I follow Fiona kolbinger. Her ride at the weekend was 319km, 6000m+ of climbing, average power 215W. Ride time 13 hours, stopped time ..... 7 minutes.He's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you met Toby?
I’ve got my stopped time down to 30-45 mins on 200km audaxes. But compared to 7 mins I’m light years away. Clearly she’s eating on the bike a lot more than I. As to average power I’ll just laugh, as I’m nowhere near that for 13 hours riding...
When you’ve got someone ahead to chase and someone behind chasing and the event is time based, a race. It makes all the difference. Which iron man triathlon was it?
That’s a country, did the event have a name?
Post by: Lightning Phil on 16 April, 2021, 02:59:21 pm
Ironman Austria :-)AustriaI did 180km in 5:30 elapsed in 2017 with less than a minute of stoppage. Looking back I am not quite sure how, particularly as it was preceded by a 4km swim and followed by running a marathon.No, but just now strava suggested I follow Fiona kolbinger. Her ride at the weekend was 319km, 6000m+ of climbing, average power 215W. Ride time 13 hours, stopped time ..... 7 minutes.He's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you met Toby?
I’ve got my stopped time down to 30-45 mins on 200km audaxes. But compared to 7 mins I’m light years away. Clearly she’s eating on the bike a lot more than I. As to average power I’ll just laugh, as I’m nowhere near that for 13 hours riding...
When you’ve got someone ahead to chase and someone behind chasing and the event is time based, a race. It makes all the difference. Which iron man triathlon was it?
That’s a country, did the event have a name?
Found your result, 58th in your age and gender group. Well done.
Post by: Davef on 16 April, 2021, 03:02:29 pm
If there had been more than 60 entrants it would have been more impressive.Ironman Austria :-)AustriaI did 180km in 5:30 elapsed in 2017 with less than a minute of stoppage. Looking back I am not quite sure how, particularly as it was preceded by a 4km swim and followed by running a marathon.No, but just now strava suggested I follow Fiona kolbinger. Her ride at the weekend was 319km, 6000m+ of climbing, average power 215W. Ride time 13 hours, stopped time ..... 7 minutes.He's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you met Toby?
I’ve got my stopped time down to 30-45 mins on 200km audaxes. But compared to 7 mins I’m light years away. Clearly she’s eating on the bike a lot more than I. As to average power I’ll just laugh, as I’m nowhere near that for 13 hours riding...
When you’ve got someone ahead to chase and someone behind chasing and the event is time based, a race. It makes all the difference. Which iron man triathlon was it?
That’s a country, did the event have a name?
Found your result, 58th in your age and gender group. Well done.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 16 April, 2021, 03:05:47 pm
If there had been more than 60 entrants it would have been more impressive.Ironman Austria :-)AustriaI did 180km in 5:30 elapsed in 2017 with less than a minute of stoppage. Looking back I am not quite sure how, particularly as it was preceded by a 4km swim and followed by running a marathon.No, but just now strava suggested I follow Fiona kolbinger. Her ride at the weekend was 319km, 6000m+ of climbing, average power 215W. Ride time 13 hours, stopped time ..... 7 minutes.He's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you met Toby?
I’ve got my stopped time down to 30-45 mins on 200km audaxes. But compared to 7 mins I’m light years away. Clearly she’s eating on the bike a lot more than I. As to average power I’ll just laugh, as I’m nowhere near that for 13 hours riding...
When you’ve got someone ahead to chase and someone behind chasing and the event is time based, a race. It makes all the difference. Which iron man triathlon was it?
That’s a country, did the event have a name?
Found your result, 58th in your age and gender group. Well done.
Better than I’d do. For a start I don’t run and swim is indoors and not all that far 😀
Post by: Davef on 16 April, 2021, 03:18:51 pm
I was second fastest Brit in my age category. I could have been a fair bit faster. It is all about round number times. I was on for 10:30 and realised that wasn’t going to happen with an hour to go and eased up knowing I was going to easily be under 11:00. If I had pushed on I could have been 15 minutes faster, but once the motivation is gone it is a challenge to keep the effort up.If there had been more than 60 entrants it would have been more impressive.Ironman Austria :-)AustriaI did 180km in 5:30 elapsed in 2017 with less than a minute of stoppage. Looking back I am not quite sure how, particularly as it was preceded by a 4km swim and followed by running a marathon.No, but just now strava suggested I follow Fiona kolbinger. Her ride at the weekend was 319km, 6000m+ of climbing, average power 215W. Ride time 13 hours, stopped time ..... 7 minutes.He's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you met Toby?
I’ve got my stopped time down to 30-45 mins on 200km audaxes. But compared to 7 mins I’m light years away. Clearly she’s eating on the bike a lot more than I. As to average power I’ll just laugh, as I’m nowhere near that for 13 hours riding...
When you’ve got someone ahead to chase and someone behind chasing and the event is time based, a race. It makes all the difference. Which iron man triathlon was it?
That’s a country, did the event have a name?
Found your result, 58th in your age and gender group. Well done.
Better than I’d do. For a start I don’t run and swim is indoors and not all that far
Post by: αdαmsκι on 16 April, 2021, 03:27:15 pm
I'd need 4 hours just for the wee stops
Given up with the strategy of weeing while on the go?
Post by: Rupert on 16 April, 2021, 03:35:55 pm
Andy Wilkinson and Lynn Taylor rode it on a tandem as training for their upcoming end-to-end record in 1995(?) and finished in just over 7-hours I think.
I do know that Mick Potts rode and completed it in under 8 hours.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 16 April, 2021, 03:40:30 pm
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 16 April, 2021, 03:51:30 pm
Not a concern for me, my moving time is over 24 hours, so even without stops I won't break 24 hoursHe's allowing for brief stops, hence moving time.if going for sub 24 hours, riding for 20 hours with 4 hours of stops seems tactically unwise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Hot Flatus on 16 April, 2021, 03:54:58 pm
I'd need 4 hours just for the wee stops
Given up with the strategy of weeing while on the go?
Taught to me by the aforementioned Nik Gardner on the BC400 a few years ago. Goes down well on club runs.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 16 April, 2021, 04:11:44 pm
It was myself that originally devised the Castleton Classic 200k route. Before it became an Audax event it was the North Birmingham CTC's annual 140 in 12 with a slightly different start and finish point. That was around 1982 if I remember correctly and it became an Audax around 1995.
Andy Wilkinson and Lynn Taylor rode it on a tandem as training for their upcoming end-to-end record in 1995(?) and finished in just over 7-hours I think.
I do know that Mick Potts rode and completed it in under 8 hours.
9:30, but I made it a bit longer at 220km...
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 16 April, 2021, 04:21:35 pm
Maybe one could to both way as separate brevets 300 + 300, without the hassle of having to be at Dolgellau in the middle of the night...
Maybe an Audax is not the right format, too many limitations in route choice... maybe something like a 200 (ish) miles Brevet with standards... 13 hours for Bronze, 12 for Silver 11 hours for gold or something like that
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 16 April, 2021, 05:18:30 pm
The trick is to strap an old inner tube to your leg to discharge below the bottom bracket.I'd need 4 hours just for the wee stops
Given up with the strategy of weeing while on the go?
Taught to me by the aforementioned Nik Gardner on the BC400 a few years ago. Goes down well on club runs.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 16 April, 2021, 05:42:19 pm
Post by: Jaded on 16 April, 2021, 05:59:06 pm
Post by: Davef on 16 April, 2021, 09:09:30 pm
Or simply unfurlThe trick is to strap an old inner tube to your leg to discharge below the bottom bracket.I'd need 4 hours just for the wee stops
Given up with the strategy of weeing while on the go?
Taught to me by the aforementioned Nik Gardner on the BC400 a few years ago. Goes down well on club runs.
Post by: Ian H on 16 April, 2021, 10:28:08 pm
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 17 April, 2021, 05:36:53 am
At the suggestion of his manager Bruce Small, Opperman learned, in the back streets of Paris, how to pee from a fixed wheel in preparation for the 1928 Bol d’Or race, a tandem-paced 24 hour velodrome race. He broke several chains during the event, which had been sabotaged by rivals. Apparently the crowd cheered after seeing the golden stream flicked up from his back tyre onto his competition. After winning, he was persuaded to ride an additional 79 minutes to break the 1000km record.
https://www.velonews.com/culture/an-inside-look-at-hubert-oppy-opperman-australias-first-cycling-star/
Post by: mattc on 18 April, 2021, 06:20:21 pm
Could be interesting to have a Welsh End to End (as opposed to an End to End and back to End)... kind of a 300 km or maybe 200 miles route from Bristol to Bangor.Audax is a stupid place to go chasing records. Save it for KOms, or better try something like this:
Maybe one could to both way as separate brevets 300 + 300, without the hassle of having to be at Dolgellau in the middle of the night...
Maybe an Audax is not the right format, too many limitations in route choice... maybe something like a 200 (ish) miles Brevet with standards... 13 hours for Bronze, 12 for Silver 11 hours for gold or something like that
https://twitter.com/RRA_GB/status/1383779365868109825?s=19
Post by: akin on 22 April, 2021, 11:35:22 am
'The R80 honor requires completion of a brevet series (200, 300, 400 and 600 km) with each brevet completed in 80% or less of the maximum allowed time limit. The R70 and R60 honors are for those who complete the brevets in 70% or 60% of the allowed time, respectively.' More here; http://cyclosmontagnards.org/R80Rules.html
Rough average;
R80 19km/h total average
R70 21.5km/h total average
R60 25km/h total average
Whilst there is no validation structure in the UK it could be an interesting personal challenge if that way inclined.
In these times of reduced stopping options it could be an interesting exercise in terms of honing self sufficiency skills, reducing stopped time or covering routes with a slightly different focus.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 22 April, 2021, 11:41:59 am
Not setting records, but there are frameworks in other countries for completion time based challenges within the brevet time limits. I came across the American Cyclos Montagnards brevet challenge recently. Whilst it may only appeal to a niche subsection it seems some other countries have adopted similar approaches.
'The R80 honor requires completion of a brevet series (200, 300, 400 and 600 km) with each brevet completed in 80% or less of the maximum allowed time limit. The R70 and R60 honors are for those who complete the brevets in 70% or 60% of the allowed time, respectively.' More here; http://cyclosmontagnards.org/R80Rules.html
Rough average;
R80 19km/h total average
R70 21.5km/h total average
R60 25km/h total average
Whilst there is no validation structure in the UK it could be an interesting personal challenge if that way inclined.
In these times of reduced stopping options it could be an interesting exercise in terms of honing self sufficiency skills, reducing stopped time or covering routes with a slightly different focus.
Nice, I also think there should be a way for AUK to introduce standards, ultimately that happens in PBP, which is the daddy of them all. If you can do a 400 in 16-18 hours without stretching yourself, then the challenge of the 27 hours is simply not there.
Take a 600, you could have a platinum brevet for 20-25 hours, gold for 25-30, silver for 30-35 and bronze for 35-40 hours...
Post by: Hot Flatus on 22 April, 2021, 11:47:40 am
Post by: grams on 22 April, 2021, 11:51:44 am
Post by: John Stonebridge on 22 April, 2021, 12:02:19 pm
Back to my example of the 2003 Daylight
One of the very good aspects of audax is that Davie Stokes on his trike, Chloe Williams (right up against the time limit at points) and no doubt other full value riders achieved exactly the same as an E2E record holder who no doubt breezed round.
http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2003/listevent/?Ride=256
Its beautiful.
Its unsullied by the clock or finishing places.
Its democratic.
Its socialism without politics.
Post by: iroiromono on 22 April, 2021, 12:06:15 pm
Im a “No” to Audax standards.
I agree.
Interesting When AUK started there were different standards. Gold, Silver Bronze, each with a different min speed.
Post by: akin on 22 April, 2021, 12:13:30 pm
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 22 April, 2021, 12:44:40 pm
Why? It's not a sportive with a wanky medal. Not everything in life has to be a competition.
How do you then justify PBP having two (three?) separate standards?
If the standards are not a good idea, then how about 2 different brevets, say for a 400 the first group starts at 6 AM with 27 hours, the second group starts at 12 with 19 hours, or something like that...
That would also be quite handy for those who are not keen to set off before they even had the chance of having a poo... :P
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 22 April, 2021, 12:47:11 pm
For clarity. I don't feel there should be any element of standards or grading finishes, but if someone is inclined to challenge themselves to ride x distance in x time all power to them if thats how they derive pleasure or a sense of achievement. As already noted there is already the scope for a range of riders completing the task as suits them.
There is, but it's meaningless... if you set off to do a 400 in 16 hours and you end up doing 18, you still get your brevet validated... whereas it would be nice if you didn't... like PBP
Call it a reliability audax, if you like
Post by: grams on 22 April, 2021, 01:19:14 pm
You seem to be trying to invent a different discipline.
Post by: arabella on 22 April, 2021, 01:26:40 pm
There are lots of ways you can challenge yourself without audax changing. Or is it the additional recognition you're really after? Have you thought about whether, longer term, said extra recognition (grammar school) might perhaps put off those of us who aren't going to achieve it (secondary modern) by creating a 'more exclusive' group?
There is, but it's meaningless... if you set off to do a 400 in 16 hours and you end up doing 18, you still get your brevet validated... whereas it would be nice if you didn't... like PBPNo-one's forcing you to sign & hand in your brevet card at the end (though you should check back in as courtesy to the organiser).
Call it a reliability audax, if you like
(If you want to know more, see eg Tyranny of Merit, Sandel (https://www.ted.com/talks/michael_sandel_the_tyranny_of_merit))
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 22 April, 2021, 01:42:23 pm
The seeds in group A still got a medal if they arrived at 89:59, didn't they? And AFAIK they got exactly the same medal as me if they arrived 40 hours earlier.
Don't know... I was always told if you sign up for the 80 hours, you have to complete in 80 hours (aren't they called Vedettes?), otherwise you get no validation.
Otherwise, what's the point?
Post by: L CC on 22 April, 2021, 01:49:05 pm
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 22 April, 2021, 01:53:12 pm
You could ask what's the point of adding a time element to Audax. It is what it is. Plenty of other opportunities to race, if that's what you want to do.
Not really... there are already time limits... 15-30 km/h... it's just a question of narrowing the range to make the challenge more interesting... maybe 25-30 km/h or something. Doesn't have to affect others.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 22 April, 2021, 02:12:44 pm
There are lots of ways you can challenge yourself without audax changing.
In which way?
Leaving out the Mille+ things, which are not for me... I think the only current event that would be an interesting challenge is the Pendle 600. I almost pressed the button to enter twice... just been deterred by Hardknott and Wrynose, not much the ascent, but the idea of descending after 24 hours in the saddle... it was scary enough with a functioning brain
Post by: Ian H on 22 April, 2021, 02:17:42 pm
Post by: L CC on 22 April, 2021, 02:23:27 pm
So do it. Challenge yourself. No need to change audax.You could ask what's the point of adding a time element to Audax. It is what it is. Plenty of other opportunities to race, if that's what you want to do.
Not really... there are already time limits... 15-30 km/h... it's just a question of narrowing the range to make the challenge more interesting... maybe 25-30 km/h or something. Doesn't have to affect others.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 22 April, 2021, 02:43:36 pm
There are lots of ways you can challenge yourself without audax changing.
In which way?
Leaving out the Mille+ things, which are not for me... I think the only current event that would be an interesting challenge is the Pendle 600. I almost pressed the button to enter twice... just been deterred by Hardknott and Wrynose, not much the ascent, but the idea of descending after 24 hours in the saddle... it was scary enough with a functioning brain
OK, so you now know your limits. In audax terms, a firm bronze.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 22 April, 2021, 02:54:39 pm
There are lots of ways you can challenge yourself without audax changing.
In which way?
Leaving out the Mille+ things, which are not for me... I think the only current event that would be an interesting challenge is the Pendle 600. I almost pressed the button to enter twice... just been deterred by Hardknott and Wrynose, not much the ascent, but the idea of descending after 24 hours in the saddle... it was scary enough with a functioning brain
OK, so you now know your limits. In audax terms, a firm bronze.
Yes...
I think I need to find a different long distance platform, as it's clear Audax is no longer working for me. I thought about doing 12 h TTs, but they all seem to go up and down the same stretch of dual carriageway for half a day... if only they were a bit more interesting...
Post by: Davef on 22 April, 2021, 02:56:06 pm
There are plenty of other events that are races. It might me more appropriate to enter one of them. They also tend not to have limits on maximum speed.
Any event that involves tea and cake is inherently not a race in my mind. That would be just asking for indigestion.
My suggestions that golf should be won by the person that gets round the course fastest irrespective of the number of shots taken has not proved popular though personally I feel it would be an improvement.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 22 April, 2021, 03:07:37 pm
There are plenty of other events that are races. It might me more appropriate to enter one of them.
Surprisingly not that many. BC categorised racing is basically a ticket to A&E at my level. Everyone I know who has done a bit of Cat 4 racing, has also been involved in a fair share of crashes.
I do a bit of TT, but I tend to enjoy the short stuff... I don't really want to spend more than half an hour on a dual carriageway.
Then there is this new trend for self supported racing, which is appealing, but I have only seen things that last a fortnight, rather than 12-24 hours.
Post by: JonBuoy on 22 April, 2021, 03:18:48 pm
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 22 April, 2021, 03:33:19 pm
Cancelled due to covid but this sort of thing might interest you: https://www.sientries.co.uk/event.php?event_id=6613
We did look into it pre-pandemic, it was a nice idea... I think in the end we didn't sign up because it did seem a bit steep... maybe they should have charged 40 and leave out the cycling jersey that nobody really wants to wear... but I might do it next year
Post by: frankly frankie on 22 April, 2021, 04:04:04 pm
There are 3 pbp events that are on at the same time, with 80, 84 and 90 hour time limits. ...
When I rode PBP (3x) the starts were different and the full-value riders set off at 4am, the 'randonneurs' at 10am and the vedettes at 4pm. Everyone had to finish by the same cut-off time. In practice the time differences were more or less ironed out by half distance, and riders from all 3 groups rode the backward 600 all mixed together, all with the same challenges and concerns - we were very much all in the same event.
Quote
Any event that involves tea and cake is inherently not a race in my mind. That would be just asking for indigestion.
But it's only a particular mindset that associates audax with tea and cake. For some people it's all about the stops - whereas I always thought it was all about cycling.
Post by: Davef on 22 April, 2021, 04:05:24 pm
Racing is available for older wiser riders too ... https://bmcr.org.uk
There are plenty of other events that are races. It might me more appropriate to enter one of them.
Surprisingly not that many. BC categorised racing is basically a ticket to A&E at my level. Everyone I know who has done a bit of Cat 4 racing, has also been involved in a fair share of crashes.
I do a bit of TT, but I tend to enjoy the short stuff... I don't really want to spend more than half an hour on a dual carriageway.
Then there is this new trend for self supported racing, which is appealing, but I have only seen things that last a fortnight, rather than 12-24 hours.
.. and there are some fast sportives - e.g tour of Cambridge the group I was with when I did it in 2017 averaged 37km/h for over 3 hours.
Post by: Davef on 22 April, 2021, 04:28:18 pm
It was probably a smaller field then, not 7000+. Now the 80hr vedettes set off ahead of the 90hr riders so the finish is spread over days.There are 3 pbp events that are on at the same time, with 80, 84 and 90 hour time limits. ...
When I rode PBP (3x) the starts were different and the full-value riders set off at 4am, the 'randonneurs' at 10am and the vedettes at 4pm. Everyone had to finish by the same cut-off time. In practice the time differences were more or less ironed out by half distance, and riders from all 3 groups rode the backward 600 all mixed together, all with the same challenges and concerns - we were very much all in the same event.QuoteAny event that involves tea and cake is inherently not a race in my mind. That would be just asking for indigestion.
But it's only a particular mindset that associates audax with tea and cake. For some people it's all about the stops - whereas I always thought it was all about cycling.
Post by: Manotea on 22 April, 2021, 04:46:14 pm
I came 4th on an audax once. 🥴
Post by: Frank9755 on 22 April, 2021, 04:51:26 pm
For clarity. I don't feel there should be any element of standards or grading finishes, but if someone is inclined to challenge themselves to ride x distance in x time all power to them if thats how they derive pleasure or a sense of achievement. As already noted there is already the scope for a range of riders completing the task as suits them.
There is, but it's meaningless... if you set off to do a 400 in 16 hours and you end up doing 18, you still get your brevet validated... whereas it would be nice if you didn't... like PBP
Call it a reliability audax, if you like
There's an easy way to fix that: instead of riding faster than the time limit to finish early, start late so you have to ride at target pace to finish on time.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 22 April, 2021, 05:57:28 pm
For clarity. I don't feel there should be any element of standards or grading finishes, but if someone is inclined to challenge themselves to ride x distance in x time all power to them if thats how they derive pleasure or a sense of achievement. As already noted there is already the scope for a range of riders completing the task as suits them.
There is, but it's meaningless... if you set off to do a 400 in 16 hours and you end up doing 18, you still get your brevet validated... whereas it would be nice if you didn't... like PBP
Call it a reliability audax, if you like
There's an easy way to fix that: instead of riding faster than the time limit to finish early, start late so you have to ride at target pace to finish on time.
I did think about that, to be honest, especially for those brevets starting at 6 AM, I would rather start at 9 or 10 AM, even more so in spring, when mornings are cold. But generally you are expected to collect your card on time... then it leaves you with hours to fill.
Besides, if the organiser sticks to the rules, you're out of time at the first few controls
Post by: giropaul on 22 April, 2021, 08:28:48 pm
It was myself that originally devised the Castleton Classic 200k route. Before it became an Audax event it was the North Birmingham CTC's annual 140 in 12 with a slightly different start and finish point. That was around 1982 if I remember correctly and it became an Audax around 1995.Having known Mick, I can imagine him dryly commenting “ if I knew it was timed I’d have made an effort”
Andy Wilkinson and Lynn Taylor rode it on a tandem as training for their upcoming end-to-end record in 1995(?) and finished in just over 7-hours I think.
I do know that Mick Potts rode and completed it in under 8 hours.
Seriously though, Audax cannot, and should not, time individuals or publish times. To do so would make the event a race within the Cycle Racing on the Highway definition, and would also change the whole character and ethos of Audax.
I can’t begin to imagine the work in organising a 200km race, for of course a much reduced field; probably 60 maximum. Police permissions, risk assessments, accredited marshalls at every junction etc etc.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 23 April, 2021, 06:32:10 am
It was myself that originally devised the Castleton Classic 200k route. Before it became an Audax event it was the North Birmingham CTC's annual 140 in 12 with a slightly different start and finish point. That was around 1982 if I remember correctly and it became an Audax around 1995.Having known Mick, I can imagine him dryly commenting “ if I knew it was timed I’d have made an effort”
Andy Wilkinson and Lynn Taylor rode it on a tandem as training for their upcoming end-to-end record in 1995(?) and finished in just over 7-hours I think.
I do know that Mick Potts rode and completed it in under 8 hours.
Seriously though, Audax cannot, and should not, time individuals or publish times. To do so would make the event a race within the Cycle Racing on the Highway definition, and would also change the whole character and ethos of Audax.
I can’t begin to imagine the work in organising a 200km race, for of course a much reduced field; probably 60 maximum. Police permissions, risk assessments, accredited marshalls at every junction etc etc.
Lots of events seem to get away with publishing times and not being a race, anyway, that's not the point. Nobody cares for times to be published, just as nobody cares about sportive times to be published... there is Strava for that.
Post by: frankly frankie on 23 April, 2021, 09:46:57 am
https://audax.uk/results/annual-awards/arrows-darts-trails/ (https://audax.uk/results/annual-awards/arrows-darts-trails/)
To address a much earlier point:
Bryan Chapman memorial is a BRM, so all times will have been submitted to and recorded by ACP. I know I could see all my brevet times when entering PBP
Whether someone would be inclined to retrieve that information is another matter.
All times that have been submitted to AUK** have been recorded by AUK and are retained, right back to the mid-1970s. Just not published.
** times are only required for BRMs, for other events BRs and Populaires, it's about a 50-50 split whether the Organiser passes the times on, or not. Where they are passed on, they are recorded.
Post by: arabella on 23 April, 2021, 12:47:46 pm
If you are after more of a challenge, and aren't interested in longer rides (why not? wrong sort of challenge?) then think about how your bike would compare with what was around when audax started. Most likely it weighs less. So get a heavier bike or add a brick to your saddlebag (there are other anti-weight-weeny options I'm sure). Or have fewer and more widely spaced gears (or, if you are on fixed, get a longer/lower gear). I've been reliably informed that there is a fairly high correlation between shininess/weight-weeniness (or not) and how early folks arrive at a control.There are lots of ways you can challenge yourself without audax changing.
In which way?
Leaving out the Mille+ things, which are not for me... I think the only current event that would be an interesting challenge is the Pendle 600. I almost pressed the button to enter twice... just been deterred by Hardknott and Wrynose, not much the ascent, but the idea of descending after 24 hours in the saddle... it was scary enough with a functioning brain
You will then have bragging rights about being closer to audax roots.
I'd disagree that 'having to go faster' == 'more interesting'.You could ask what's the point of adding a time element to Audax. It is what it is. Plenty of other opportunities to race, if that's what you want to do.Not really... there are already time limits... 15-30 km/h... it's just a question of narrowing the range to make the challenge more interesting... maybe 25-30 km/h or something. Doesn't have to affect others.
If the minimum speed is 25kph it certainly will affect others - anyone who can't maintain an overall 25kph speed (inc stopping times). Which is quite a lot of people (I don't think I've ever managed more than 20kph). I refer you back to my previous comment about not handing in your brevet card if you haven't gone fast enough for your own liking.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 23 April, 2021, 01:29:08 pm
If you are after more of a challenge, and aren't interested in longer rides (why not? wrong sort of challenge?) then think about how your bike would compare with what was around when audax started. Most likely it weighs less. So get a heavier bike or add a brick to your saddlebag (there are other anti-weight-weeny options I'm sure). Or have fewer and more widely spaced gears (or, if you are on fixed, get a longer/lower gear). I've been reliably informed that there is a fairly high correlation between shininess/weight-weeniness (or not) and how early folks arrive at a control.
You will then have bragging rights about being closer to audax roots.
Distance brings a different set of skills, which I am not interested in... like how to avoid saddle sores, how to avoid your hands going numb, how to avoid collapsing at the side of the road due to sleep deprivation, how to avoid constipation, how to force feed yourself when you can no longer eat, how to wipe your bum when you have to go in the wild... It's all stuff that has little to do with riding a bike hard. I found a 600 was long enough, if not too long already. For example, a very fast 24 hour time triallist, is unlikely to be also at the very top end of a Transcontinental Race an viceversa, just completely different skillsets within the same "long distance cycling" label.
I have a 1980 bike, it's pretty much the same ride as my carbon bike, except I have slightly bigger gears. I think my PB on a 10 mile TT is very close. I don't think that going back further and learning to ride an ordinary would satisfy my hunger for challenge to be honest. Besides, old bikes bring in problems that you can no longer fix, due to parts being unavailable.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 23 April, 2021, 01:30:56 pm
I'd disagree that 'having to go faster' == 'more interesting'.
If the minimum speed is 25kph it certainly will affect others - anyone who can't maintain an overall 25kph speed (inc stopping times). Which is quite a lot of people (I don't think I've ever managed more than 20kph). I refer you back to my previous comment about not handing in your brevet card if you haven't gone fast enough for your own liking.
It wouldn't have to be 25-30 for all... I think it would be interesting to be able to sign up for a sub-challenge within the same brevet, totally discretionary. But, as I said, I don't think Audax is the platform for fast paced long distance cycling
Post by: Ian H on 23 April, 2021, 01:41:14 pm
And - oddly - AUK do publish some 'winning' Arrows distance achievements. See here (click on either of the Arrow headings):
https://audax.uk/results/annual-awards/arrows-darts-trails/ (https://audax.uk/results/annual-awards/arrows-darts-trails/)
I think my name is in there somewhere, just to prove that I have won an audax event.
Post by: L CC on 23 April, 2021, 01:48:20 pm
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 23 April, 2021, 01:55:48 pm
Some are there for the cake and the company, some are there to see if they can still finish in time, some are there for the views and the adventure and some are there to be the "first one back"... I don't see why the latter has to be frowned upon.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 23 April, 2021, 01:55:52 pm
Post by: Ian H on 23 April, 2021, 02:02:11 pm
Everybody gets their name on an arrow trophy eventually it seems, even me. Mind you, I’ve also been on an incorrectly DQed arrow team, so swings and all that.You've ruined my sense of achievement!
Post by: Hot Flatus on 23 April, 2021, 02:19:05 pm
I will bring back the "Audax is a broad church" saying.
Some are there for the cake and the company, some are there to see if they can still finish in time, some are there for the views and the adventure and some are there to be the "first one back"... I don't see why the latter has to be frowned upon.
Because its not a race
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 23 April, 2021, 02:27:33 pm
I will bring back the "Audax is a broad church" saying.
Some are there for the cake and the company, some are there to see if they can still finish in time, some are there for the views and the adventure and some are there to be the "first one back"... I don't see why the latter has to be frowned upon.
Because its not a race
Which of course you realise immediately when you're not handed a trophy... what if you want to be the first one back anyway? What's wrong with that?
Many of us like to be the first on top of a hill in a club run and that's not a race either... so what?
Post by: Frank9755 on 23 April, 2021, 03:46:42 pm
a very fast 24 hour time triallist, is unlikely to be also at the very top end of a Transcontinental Race an viceversa, just completely different skillsets within the same "long distance cycling" label.
Wrong yet again, I'm afraid!
Just off the top of my head:
Two 24-hr winners - Ultan Coyle and Stuart Bernie (Hippy) - have ridden the TCR. Ultan came fourth and Hippy has been in the top 10. Rimas / Zigzag did the first TCR then rocked up for the 24 as his first TT and did 479.
James Hayden has TT'd, with a 46 as his 25 PB. He's not done the 24 but it's on his agenda at some point.
People who are fast over one distance tend to be fast over other distances.
Post by: Jethro on 23 April, 2021, 04:09:00 pm
I always wanted to do a 12-hour and thought that the speed from shorter distance time trials together with some fast 200k and 300k events would be ideal, but sadly it was never to be.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 23 April, 2021, 04:16:48 pm
a very fast 24 hour time triallist, is unlikely to be also at the very top end of a Transcontinental Race an viceversa, just completely different skillsets within the same "long distance cycling" label.
Wrong yet again, I'm afraid!
Just off the top of my head:
Two 24-hr winners - Ultan Coyle and Stuart Bernie (Hippy) - have ridden the TCR. Ultan came fourth and Hippy has been in the top 10. Rimas / Zigzag did the first TCR then rocked up for the 24 as his first TT and did 479.
James Hayden has TT'd, with a 46 as his 25 PB. He's not done the 24 but it's on his agenda at some point.
People who are fast over one distance tend to be fast over other distances.
You will find athletes who can manage both reasonably well, but if you excel at one, you are unlikely to excel at the other. Different skillsets, completely different events. I can't see lapping an A road at 25 mph as being anywhere near the same thing as having to plot a route across unknown roads to go from A to B.
Speed helps in both events, but that's where the similarities end.
Anyway, that's Lynne Taylor's opinion too... I think she has done quite a few 24 TT, among other things... ::-)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 23 April, 2021, 05:35:43 pm
I will bring back the "Audax is a broad church" saying.
Some are there for the cake and the company, some are there to see if they can still finish in time, some are there for the views and the adventure and some are there to be the "first one back"... I don't see why the latter has to be frowned upon.
Because its not a race
Which of course you realise immediately when you're not handed a trophy... what if you want to be the first one back anyway? What's wrong with that?
Many of us like to be the first on top of a hill in a club run and that's not a race either... so what?
It isn't frowned upon to be first back. Somebody has to be first back. Its frowned upon to boast about it.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 23 April, 2021, 06:22:58 pm
I will bring back the "Audax is a broad church" saying.
Some are there for the cake and the company, some are there to see if they can still finish in time, some are there for the views and the adventure and some are there to be the "first one back"... I don't see why the latter has to be frowned upon.
Because its not a race
Which of course you realise immediately when you're not handed a trophy... what if you want to be the first one back anyway? What's wrong with that?
Many of us like to be the first on top of a hill in a club run and that's not a race either... so what?
It isn't frowned upon to be first back. Somebody has to be first back. Its frowned upon to boast about it.
Makes sense...
I've peeped through the calendar but didn't find anything that took my fancy, so I signed up for the Etape du Dales instead... :o
Post by: cygnet on 23 April, 2021, 06:31:34 pm
a very fast 24 hour time triallist, is unlikely to be also at the very top end of a Transcontinental Race an viceversa, just completely different skillsets within the same "long distance cycling" label.
Wrong yet again, I'm afraid!
Just off the top of my head:
Two 24-hr winners - Ultan Coyle and Stuart Bernie (Hippy) - have ridden the TCR. Ultan came fourth and Hippy has been in the top 10. Rimas / Zigzag did the first TCR then rocked up for the 24 as his first TT and did 479.
James Hayden has TT'd, with a 46 as his 25 PB. He's not done the 24 but it's on his agenda at some point.
People who are fast over one distance tend to be fast over other distances.
You will find athletes who can manage both reasonably well, but if you excel at one, you are unlikely to excel at the other. Different skillsets, completely different events. I can't see lapping an A road at 25 mph as being anywhere near the same thing as having to plot a route across unknown roads to go from A to B.
Speed helps in both events, but that's where the similarities end.
Anyway, that's Lynne Taylor's opinion too... I think she has done quite a few 24 TT, among other things... ::-)
You're setting an unreachable standard if coming 1st in one and 4th in the other is "managing reasonably well".
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 23 April, 2021, 06:51:32 pm
a very fast 24 hour time triallist, is unlikely to be also at the very top end of a Transcontinental Race an viceversa, just completely different skillsets within the same "long distance cycling" label.
Wrong yet again, I'm afraid!
Just off the top of my head:
Two 24-hr winners - Ultan Coyle and Stuart Bernie (Hippy) - have ridden the TCR. Ultan came fourth and Hippy has been in the top 10. Rimas / Zigzag did the first TCR then rocked up for the 24 as his first TT and did 479.
James Hayden has TT'd, with a 46 as his 25 PB. He's not done the 24 but it's on his agenda at some point.
People who are fast over one distance tend to be fast over other distances.
You will find athletes who can manage both reasonably well, but if you excel at one, you are unlikely to excel at the other. Different skillsets, completely different events. I can't see lapping an A road at 25 mph as being anywhere near the same thing as having to plot a route across unknown roads to go from A to B.
Speed helps in both events, but that's where the similarities end.
Anyway, that's Lynne Taylor's opinion too... I think she has done quite a few 24 TT, among other things... ::-)
You're setting an unreachable standard if coming 1st in one and 4th in the other is "managing reasonably well".
Maybe, but isn't it the case that in TCR, it's 3 or 4 who are there to win it and the rest are there to set some personal targets?
Post by: cygnet on 23 April, 2021, 07:36:10 pm
Re the PBP comments upthread. In 2019 they gave out medals at the finish and posted out a sticker with the time on it later. In earlier years they validated the results and then posted out the medals engraved with the time
It's possible to have been given a medal, and be recorded HD. (LEL did similar in 2017)
Edit: speeling
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 23 April, 2021, 08:00:02 pm
That could be applied to any event in any sport though. (Inc the Nat 24hr)
True...
I guess my point is that if you win one and you finish 4th in the other and in both cases you are only really racing 3, because the rest don't have the same FTP/Kg, VO2 max and only make up numbers, then it doesn't prove that you excel at both. It just proves that you are a superior athlete to most, but you are excellent at one discipline, not so much at the other.
Post by: grams on 23 April, 2021, 08:37:57 pm
It's possible to have been given a medal, and be recorded HD. (LEL did similar in 2017)
LEL had a specific policy of giving a medal to everyone who completed the route.
Medals at PBP were only given out after someone had had a good look at your brevet, though I don't what the policy was.
Post by: cygnet on 23 April, 2021, 08:50:24 pm
I still remember one HD chap from India bursting into tears when I gave him his.
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 April, 2021, 05:20:13 am
That could be applied to any event in any sport though. (Inc the Nat 24hr)
True...
I guess my point is that if you win one and you finish 4th in the other and in both cases you are only really racing 3, because the rest don't have the same FTP/Kg, VO2 max and only make up numbers, then it doesn't prove that you excel at both. It just proves that you are a superior athlete to most, but you are excellent at one discipline, not so much at the other.
It really doesn't prove anything I'm afraid.
Your assertion that only 3-4 people are racing the TCR or 24 shows a profound lack of understanding of what you are talking about and is insulting to those who take part.
For any race there are favourites and the TCR and 24 are no different. But just because someone isn't likely to win doesn't mean they aren't racing, against their pb or club record, their own limitations, against their friends, against the target they need to hit to get back to work, etc. In the races you do, just because you are not in the top 3 doesn't mean you are not racing, and the TCR and 24 are exactly the same in that respect.
Lynne might not fancy the TCR, which is fine - I'm not saying there's a perfect overlap. But having done both, I can tell you based on experience that the events have many similarities.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 24 April, 2021, 06:22:08 am
Lynne might not fancy the TCR, which is fine - I'm not saying there's a perfect overlap. But having done both, I can tell you based on experience that the events have many similarities.
It was in the context of the End to End record... basically her point is that someone with a 24 TT pedigree is far more likely to be successful at the record than someone with a TCR pedigree, because the skillset involved is more aligned.
Which obviously I can only agree with.
Neither the 24 nor the End to End involves managing time off and on the bike, which is a skill you need for TCR. Navigation, mapping, self sufficiency are obvious differences... the "engine" required is probably very different, the fact that Fiona won with a large margin means you don't need an FTP > 5 W/kg in TCR, but it's probably the very minimum you need to win a 24 TT (guessing here). The fact that the competition itself is not split by gender shows you that it's a very different event from time trialling, where it would be unthinkable.
Anyway, digressing...
Post by: Davef on 24 April, 2021, 07:04:22 am
You seem to be saying it can’t be a proper race if a girl won it. As you increase the “ultraness” of events gender differences decrease. Look at Elizabeth Barnes in ultra running.
Lynne might not fancy the TCR, which is fine - I'm not saying there's a perfect overlap. But having done both, I can tell you based on experience that the events have many similarities.
It was in the context of the End to End record... basically her point is that someone with a 24 TT pedigree is far more likely to be successful at the record than someone with a TCR pedigree, because the skillset involved is more aligned.
Which obviously I can only agree with.
Neither the 24 nor the End to End involves managing time off and on the bike, which is a skill you need for TCR. Navigation, mapping, self sufficiency are obvious differences... the "engine" required is probably very different, the fact that Fiona won with a large margin means you don't need an FTP > 5 W/kg in TCR, but it's probably the very minimum you need to win a 24 TT (guessing here). The fact that the competition itself is not split by gender shows you that it's a very different event from time trialling, where it would be unthinkable.
Anyway, digressing...
Post by: grams on 24 April, 2021, 09:05:37 am
Navigation, mapping, self sufficiency are obvious differences... the "engine" required is probably very different, the fact that Fiona won with a large margin means you don't need an FTP > 5 W/kg in TCR, but it's probably the very minimum you need to win a 24 TT (guessing here).
Noooooooo. W/kg is generally derived from FTP which is how much power you can put out by killing yourself in an hour.
Unsurprisingly, the longer the event, the less relevant that particular metric is, but that doesn't mean winning isn't largely dependent on how much power you can put out on average over the period of the race. Fiona won by being a very fast bike rider.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 24 April, 2021, 02:51:40 pm
You seem to be saying it can’t be a proper race if a girl one it. As you increase the “ultraness” of events gender differences decrease. Look at Elizabeth Barnes in ultra running.
That's exactly what I am not saying, but nice try :thumbsup:
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 24 April, 2021, 02:52:40 pm
Navigation, mapping, self sufficiency are obvious differences... the "engine" required is probably very different, the fact that Fiona won with a large margin means you don't need an FTP > 5 W/kg in TCR, but it's probably the very minimum you need to win a 24 TT (guessing here).
Noooooooo. W/kg is generally derived from FTP which is how much power you can put out by killing yourself in an hour.
Unsurprisingly, the longer the event, the less relevant that particular metric is, but that doesn't mean winning isn't largely dependent on how much power you can put out on average over the period of the race. Fiona won by being a very fast bike rider.
I agree...
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 April, 2021, 10:00:05 pm
So you don't believe that a woman could ever beat the fastest man in a national championship time trial...?
The fact that the competition itself is not split by gender shows you that it's a very different event from time trialling, where it would be unthinkable.
What if she gave him a jelly baby as she passed?
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 25 April, 2021, 07:35:19 am
So you don't believe that a woman could ever beat the fastest man in a national championship time trial...?
The fact that the competition itself is not split by gender shows you that it's a very different event from time trialling, where it would be unthinkable.
What if she gave him a jelly baby as she passed?
Going through recent past results
2019 M 544 W 478
2018 M 532 W 445
2017 M 530 W 456
So, no... I don't... there's currently a 60-80 miles gap, which is quite big.
That said, if you look at TCR, but also ultra running, the gap narrows as the distance increases and becomes zero if the distance is long enough... basically it means that power becomes secondary to other skills, where men and women are equal, or more likely where women are better than men.
Post by: Frank9755 on 25 April, 2021, 08:55:02 am
Look up Beryl Burton's women's 12-hour record.
Post by: felstedrider on 25 April, 2021, 09:00:40 am
Post by: grams on 25 April, 2021, 09:26:46 am
That said, if you look at TCR, but also ultra running, the gap narrows as the distance increases and becomes zero if the distance is long enough... basically it means that power becomes secondary to other skills, where men and women are equal, or more likely where women are better than men.
"If a woman won it can't have been about who can ride a bike fastest"
AFAIK ultrarunning is typically done on marked courses with full TLC and often prescribed kit. It is entirely about who can cover the course fastest.
Post by: Ashaman42 on 25 April, 2021, 09:56:07 am
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 25 April, 2021, 10:46:56 am
There's nothing wrong with not knowing much about a subject, until you try to pretend you are some sort of expert and make sweeping statements which are wrong because you lack the necessary knowledge on which to base them.
Look up Beryl Burton's women's 12-hour record.
I am very aware and please don't underestimate my knowledge, which might even be deeper than yours.
We are talking the 1960s... it was a very different reality. Of course Beryl was extraordinary and I am aware her 12 h record was faster than the men's, but it's also true that it was a time when male talents were lured into the much more profitable continental racing scene and it could well be that the UK male scene was left starved of talent. I am not aware of a continental female racing scene luring in UK talent at the time, but I might be wrong.
That obviously doesn't detract anything from her incredible achievements...
But we are now in 2021 and do you see this happening again any time soon? A female athlete appearing and beating her opponents by 60 miles in a 24h TT?
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 25 April, 2021, 10:54:59 am
"If a woman won it can't have been about who can ride a bike fastest"
Of course.
In a 10 days event, there will be time on the bike and time off the bike... if you can minimise the time off the bike, then you are going to have a quicker time.
That's a different skill from mashing a big gear at 25 mph, I hope we agree on this much.
I think (and going back to the original topic) you are looking at it from an Audax perspective. In other words, I seem to recall I did the BCM in 33 hours, but I slept 6 or 7 hours in Dolgellau. Someone else might have done in 30 without sleep, who is the faster?
Of course, they finished first, but that's due to a different set of skills, like that of being able and to go on without sleep and having the confidence to navigate the course at night.
Now, on a shorter course, like a 300, I would have probably be the one finishing 3 hours ahead...
Different skillsets for different distances... and of course Audax is not a race... ;D
Post by: Davef on 25 April, 2021, 11:16:46 am
I can run a 4 minute mile. Obviously not all in one go. Of course you have to include breaks, so the person that finished 3 hours ahead of you was faster.
"If a woman won it can't have been about who can ride a bike fastest"
Of course.
In a 10 days event, there will be time on the bike and time off the bike... if you can minimise the time off the bike, then you are going to have a quicker time.
That's a different skill from mashing a big gear at 25 mph, I hope we agree on this much.
I think (and going back to the original topic) you are looking at it from an Audax perspective. In other words, I seem to recall I did the BCM in 33 hours, but I slept 6 or 7 hours in Dolgellau. Someone else might have done in 30 without sleep, who is the faster?
Of course, they finished first, but that's due to a different set of skills, like that of being able and to go on without sleep and having the confidence to navigate the course at night.
Now, on a shorter course, like a 300, I would have probably be the one finishing 3 hours ahead...
Different skillsets for different distances... and of course Audax is not a race... ;D
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 25 April, 2021, 11:27:50 am
Aren't there studies that show women are better at long sustained power output even if (on average, population Vs individual) their raw short term power is lower?
The xperimental evidence is that it's true, but only as you go for extra long.
Hour record for men is 55 km, for women is 46.
The difference is roughly 20%. If you look at the National 24, then the difference is again roughly 20%. End to End, 44 hours Vs 52, again roughly 20%.
Running is quite a bit closer, always around 10%, both at 100 mt and at the marathon.
Iron man, again only 10% 7:35 Vs 8:18
The paths really converge in ultra distance, where gender doesn't seem to matter much
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 25 April, 2021, 11:32:36 am
I can run a 4 minute mile. Obviously not all in one go. Of course you have to include breaks, so the person that finished 3 hours ahead of you was faster.
"If a woman won it can't have been about who can ride a bike fastest"
Of course.
In a 10 days event, there will be time on the bike and time off the bike... if you can minimise the time off the bike, then you are going to have a quicker time.
That's a different skill from mashing a big gear at 25 mph, I hope we agree on this much.
I think (and going back to the original topic) you are looking at it from an Audax perspective. In other words, I seem to recall I did the BCM in 33 hours, but I slept 6 or 7 hours in Dolgellau. Someone else might have done in 30 without sleep, who is the faster?
Of course, they finished first, but that's due to a different set of skills, like that of being able and to go on without sleep and having the confidence to navigate the course at night.
Now, on a shorter course, like a 300, I would have probably be the one finishing 3 hours ahead...
Different skillsets for different distances... and of course Audax is not a race... ;D
But that's point isn't it...
The skill is not speed on the bike, but how long you can keep pedalling before you need a substantial break. That's what I have been trying to say for the past 2 pages.
But when it comes to shorter events, like a 24 TT, or in my Audax case a 300, then the substantial break is no longer required, hence the speed on the bike becomes the dominant factor.
I don't know how much more clear I need to be that in order to win a 24 TT you need to pedal hard, whereas in order to win a multi day unsupported event, you need to be good at many things, including pedalling hard, but other factors come into play... and as it happens these factors are not gender specific
Post by: grams on 25 April, 2021, 11:52:04 am
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 25 April, 2021, 12:06:15 pm
Do you have anything to back up your assertion that women who beat men at endurance events rode/ran slower but took shorter breaks? Because it's the first I've heard.
We would need a like for like Strava thingy... to show the moving speed, I guess...
It would also be interesting to look at how the speed drops throughout the event... does it drop in the same way or women are better at holding it...
You might think I am biased and sexist or whatever, but it's quite hard to see moving speed being the same across genders, simply because it's not the case in any other bicycle race
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 25 April, 2021, 12:10:25 pm
I can run a 4 minute mile. Obviously not all in one go. Of course you have to include breaks, so the person that finished 3 hours ahead of you was faster.
Thinking again, your comparison is a bit silly, as obviously Roger Bannister would have thrashed you over any distance, no matter how much you break the mile down...
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 25 April, 2021, 12:29:25 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jan/03/female-ultra-athletes-leading-field-women-less-ego
Post by: Davef on 25 April, 2021, 12:32:14 pm
I don't know how much more clear I need to be that in order to win a 24 TT you need to pedal hard, whereas in order to win a multi day unsupported event, you need to be good at many things, including pedalling hard, but other factors come into play... and as it happens these factors are not gender specificIt is great that you are sharing your experience of these events. Thank you.
Post by: Davef on 25 April, 2021, 12:33:13 pm
Yes. That was the point.
I can run a 4 minute mile. Obviously not all in one go. Of course you have to include breaks, so the person that finished 3 hours ahead of you was faster.
Thinking again, your comparison is a bit silly, as obviously Roger Bannister would have thrashed you over any distance, no matter how much you break the mile down...
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 25 April, 2021, 12:38:09 pm
I don't know how much more clear I need to be that in order to win a 24 TT you need to pedal hard, whereas in order to win a multi day unsupported event, you need to be good at many things, including pedalling hard, but other factors come into play... and as it happens these factors are not gender specificIt is great that you are sharing your experience of these events. Thank you.
You are welcome...
Some of the best and most experienced organisers of events in AUK, don't actually ride Audax events... crazy how you can be knowledgeable about something without first hand experience...
Anyway, read the article I linked above, it's quite interesting
Post by: Davef on 25 April, 2021, 12:59:17 pm
The article you linked to is agreeing with what everyone else is saying. Over shorter distances men are faster. When you get to ultra distances running, swimming, cycling, women are starting to beat men outright (by going faster, at faster average speeds).I don't know how much more clear I need to be that in order to win a 24 TT you need to pedal hard, whereas in order to win a multi day unsupported event, you need to be good at many things, including pedalling hard, but other factors come into play... and as it happens these factors are not gender specificIt is great that you are sharing your experience of these events. Thank you.
You are welcome...
Some of the best and most experienced organisers of events in AUK, don't actually ride Audax events... crazy how you can be knowledgeable about something without first hand experience...
Anyway, read the article I linked above, it's quite interesting
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 25 April, 2021, 01:12:58 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 April, 2021, 01:37:37 pm
The article you linked to is agreeing with what everyone else is saying. Over shorter distances men are faster. When you get to ultra distances running, swimming, cycling, women are starting to beat men outright (by going faster, at faster average speeds).
And in at least one case, doing off the bike things men will never have to do, such as expressing breast milk for their young child, as is the case of Jasmijn Paris on the spine race.
J
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 25 April, 2021, 01:47:21 pm
I guess we are no wiser on whether there is an unofficial BCM record and I am no wiser of why some in 2018 wanted to "go for the record" if there isn't one.
We can even call it a day now, before we move into the benefits of breast feeding
Post by: Ajax Bay on 25 April, 2021, 04:41:38 pm
I appreciate that others might accuse me of feeding the 'roll, but.You are welcome...I don't know how much more clear I need to be that in order to win a 24 TT you need to pedal hard, whereas in order to win a multi day unsupported event, you need to be good at many things, including pedalling hard, but other factors come into play... and as it happens these factors are not gender specificIt is great that you are sharing your experience of these events. Thank you.
Some of the best and most experienced organisers of events in AUK, don't actually ride Audax events... crazy how you can be knowledgeable about something without first hand experience...
I'm all in favour of clear assertions and reckon that when based on experience, they're well worth listening to.
Had you any particular organisers in mind in the Venn diagram intersection select set of "best and most experienced" and "haven't actually ridden Audax events"? Give them your plaudits, safe in the knowledge that the hundred plus excluded excellent Audax UK organisers will not be offended (because they've all ridden randonnees: many, many of them).
Post by: basset on 26 April, 2021, 08:18:28 am
In the late 70's and early 80's I split my season between short distance TT's and Audax and rode the West Pennine's NW Passage 200k every year (February) as base training and usually completed it in under 8-hours. I can clearly remember riding with some top roadman from Manchester Wheelers over the last 50-60k (the hilly part) and doing more than my fair share on the front and it was me that was riding the Dawes super galaxy (steel) bike compared to the other guy's much lighter road bike. We finished first (and second) and un-beknown to us, we were being chased by a group containing Mandy Jones (later to become World Road Race Champion), Ian Greenhalgh and others that came in about half an hour behind us. Whilst this did set me up to build some speed training, I could never do any good in longer distance events (100's) even though I went training with Ian Cammish one time.
This has still been the case over the last few years of the running of the event with some very fast east lancs road riders still riding it to get back as quickly as possible .
It was I believe derived from a reliability ride into a Audax and the pie and peas are very nice weather you are first or last back and as someone said as long as you don’t boast who cares because you might be first back now but one day if your lucky enough and live long enough you might be last .... and still get the pie and peas .
I always wanted to do a 12-hour and thought that the speed from shorter distance time trials together with some fast 200k and 300k events would be ideal, but sadly it was never to be.
Post by: arabella on 26 April, 2021, 12:58:25 pm
If you are after more of a challenge, and aren't interested in longer rides (why not? wrong sort of challenge?) then think about how your bike would compare with what was around when audax started. Most likely it weighs less. So get a heavier bike or add a brick to your saddlebag (there are other anti-weight-weeny options I'm sure). Or have fewer and more widely spaced gears (or, if you are on fixed, get a longer/lower gear). I've been reliably informed that there is a fairly high correlation between shininess/weight-weeniness (or not) and how early folks arrive at a control.
You will then have bragging rights about being closer to audax roots.
Distance brings a different set of skills, which I am not interested in... like how to avoid saddle sores, how to avoid your hands going numb, how to avoid collapsing at the side of the road due to sleep deprivation, how to avoid constipation, how to force feed yourself when you can no longer eat, how to wipe your bum when you have to go in the wild... It's all stuff that has little to do with riding a bike hard. I found a 600 was long enough, if not too long already. For example, a very fast 24 hour time triallist, is unlikely to be also at the very top end of a Transcontinental Race an viceversa, just completely different skillsets within the same "long distance cycling" label.
I have a 1980 bike, it's pretty much the same ride as my carbon bike, except I have slightly bigger gears. I think my PB on a 10 mile TT is very close. I don't think that going back further and learning to ride an ordinary would satisfy my hunger for challenge to be honest. Besides, old bikes bring in problems that you can no longer fix, due to parts being unavailable.
Thanks. From your sample size of 1, I can finally stop wondering whether I'd ever finish sooner if my bike weighed less than it does (current weight is about 1/3 of me iirc) (Do I really care - only in as much as being full value occasionally makes getting home afterwards err, interesting at times (though more related to public transport availability than anything else, and aligning start times (& therefore finishing times) with public transport options has been discussed elsewhere) (OT ramble cont. p96).
My thought had been that older bikes (frames) tend to be heavier etc., even with modern components, which means a lower overall speed for the same effort/input; but if you're saying you expect that in the same way your 10 mile TT PB was similar regardless of bike, then your time on a 200/300 would be the same regardless of bike, then maybe not. Though I'd love to know why.
Anyway, it sounds like you answered your own question: no-one's paid enough attention for there to be any info on who took how long to finish an event that no-one was racing to finish (well, not officially ... ), nor how much of that was moving and how much wasn't.
Which leads me to suggest: if you are fast enough to spend more time off the bike than many, would you find longer rides less of the wrong sort of challenge if you paced yourself to finish later (yet still within audax times): same riding time, more stopped time
less % time in the saddle reducing opportunities for saddle sores (not sitting on the saddle and also more time to spend on personal care etc of the nether regions)
less % time in the saddle reducing opportunities for numb hands (presumably trapped nerve so you can spend time massaging your wrists/not having weight on them etc)
(I assume for the above 2 you've already looked at your riding position, I've heard that there's a difference in riding position between racing and audax/touring)
less % time in the saddle meaning you spend time sleeping and don't end up sleep deprived
etc.
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 26 April, 2021, 01:57:53 pm
There's nothing wrong with not knowing much about a subject, until you try to pretend you are some sort of expert and make sweeping statements which are wrong because you lack the necessary knowledge on which to base them.
Look up Beryl Burton's women's 12-hour record.
And, looking at current records - for greatest distance cycled in a calendar year:
Kurt Searvogel - 76076 miles
Amanda Coker - 86537 miles
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 26 April, 2021, 01:59:16 pm
If you are after more of a challenge, and aren't interested in longer rides (why not? wrong sort of challenge?) then think about how your bike would compare with what was around when audax started. Most likely it weighs less. So get a heavier bike or add a brick to your saddlebag (there are other anti-weight-weeny options I'm sure). Or have fewer and more widely spaced gears (or, if you are on fixed, get a longer/lower gear). I've been reliably informed that there is a fairly high correlation between shininess/weight-weeniness (or not) and how early folks arrive at a control.
You will then have bragging rights about being closer to audax roots.
Distance brings a different set of skills, which I am not interested in... like how to avoid saddle sores, how to avoid your hands going numb, how to avoid collapsing at the side of the road due to sleep deprivation, how to avoid constipation, how to force feed yourself when you can no longer eat, how to wipe your bum when you have to go in the wild... It's all stuff that has little to do with riding a bike hard. I found a 600 was long enough, if not too long already. For example, a very fast 24 hour time triallist, is unlikely to be also at the very top end of a Transcontinental Race an viceversa, just completely different skillsets within the same "long distance cycling" label.
I have a 1980 bike, it's pretty much the same ride as my carbon bike, except I have slightly bigger gears. I think my PB on a 10 mile TT is very close. I don't think that going back further and learning to ride an ordinary would satisfy my hunger for challenge to be honest. Besides, old bikes bring in problems that you can no longer fix, due to parts being unavailable.
Thanks. From your sample size of 1, I can finally stop wondering whether I'd ever finish sooner if my bike weighed less than it does (current weight is about 1/3 of me iirc) (Do I really care - only in as much as being full value occasionally makes getting home afterwards err, interesting at times (though more related to public transport availability than anything else, and aligning start times (& therefore finishing times) with public transport options has been discussed elsewhere) (OT ramble cont. p96).
My thought had been that older bikes (frames) tend to be heavier etc., even with modern components, which means a lower overall speed for the same effort/input; but if you're saying you expect that in the same way your 10 mile TT PB was similar regardless of bike, then your time on a 200/300 would be the same regardless of bike, then maybe not. Though I'd love to know why.
Anyway, it sounds like you answered your own question: no-one's paid enough attention for there to be any info on who took how long to finish an event that no-one was racing to finish (well, not officially ... ), nor how much of that was moving and how much wasn't.
Which leads me to suggest: if you are fast enough to spend more time off the bike than many, would you find longer rides less of the wrong sort of challenge if you paced yourself to finish later (yet still within audax times): same riding time, more stopped time
less % time in the saddle reducing opportunities for saddle sores (not sitting on the saddle and also more time to spend on personal care etc of the nether regions)
less % time in the saddle reducing opportunities for numb hands (presumably trapped nerve so you can spend time massaging your wrists/not having weight on them etc)
(I assume for the above 2 you've already looked at your riding position, I've heard that there's a difference in riding position between racing and audax/touring)
less % time in the saddle meaning you spend time sleeping and don't end up sleep deprived
etc.
Re. old bikes... weight difference is not that much if comparing like for like. A modern carbon road bike is probably around 8 Kg and my 1980 road bike is around 9.5, it could be lighter if the wheels were built with 28 light spokes instead of 36 spaghetti. Merckx was already using 28 spokes, so nothing new there.
Of course if by old you mean a rusty BSO found in a skip, that's a different story. Even modern BSO that you can buy at Halfords for 300 quid tend to be heavy and slow.
Technological advancements have brought great speed in time trialling, but regular road bikes are not a lot faster. Average speed for road races haven't changed since the 90s.
Re. Audax... I don't know. I don't like wasting time and faffing, so the idea of riding fast and then lounge around at controls goes against my instinct. The events that I like (or used to like, as I haven't done one in almost 2 years) avoid compulsory cafe' stops, which are time sinks and just make my legs seize...
For shorter events like BP and flat BR200, ideally I'd like a system where I don't have to bother getting off the bike at all... whether that is GPS validation or some kind of app.
I once did a BP 135 that had 3 controls and 4 info... I lost the will to live and decided to press on after the first control. I then didn't hand in the card for validation.
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 26 April, 2021, 02:13:20 pm
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 26 April, 2021, 02:38:02 pm
Geriatricdolan. So who are these amazing orgainsers who do not actually ride?
Many... and you know who they are
... and if you read, I said "do not ride audax" which doesn't mean they never rode Audax. But times change, roads change, navigation systems change, attitude of people change, "customers" change, traffic change... some routes are no longer viable... some controls no longer exist.
It's a different conversation though... the point I was trying to make is that you can have an understanding of an event even without actually doing it yourself... there is plenty of information around, good quality information, from reliable sources... you can become an expert in coins without ever owning one... we live in the age of information and being accused of not being credible because you've never done it yourself, just shows how backwards and inwards some people are.
I've never climbed Everest, but I've read enough literature about it, to have an understanding of what the challenge is... probably more than some folks who never read anything about it and paid $ 50,000 to be guided up the mountain.
If you don't think that's possible, then I don't know what the fuck we are doing here...
Post by: Lightning Phil on 26 April, 2021, 02:45:45 pm
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 26 April, 2021, 02:57:05 pm
Ah, we are on to armchair experts. Excellent ;D
I can give you some pretty good advice on how to dismantle a Vision rear hub... I've never done it myself, but I have done other hubs, so I have an understanding of the process...
Or if you prefer you can wait until someone who has done it comes along... it might well be that his advice is worse than mine though...
Or viceversa
Post by: grams on 26 April, 2021, 03:11:53 pm
My thought had been that older bikes (frames) tend to be heavier etc., even with modern components, which means a lower overall speed for the same effort/input; but if you're saying you expect that in the same way your 10 mile TT PB was similar regardless of bike, then your time on a 200/300 would be the same regardless of bike, then maybe not. Though I'd love to know why.
Even at full value speeds, the vast majority of energy on a typical bike ride* is spent combatting aero drag, which is independent of weight, and the vast majority of drag comes from the rider not the bike.
A lot of the speed benefit of a light bike is placebo.
(* i.e. not a hill climb)
Post by: Lightning Phil on 26 April, 2021, 04:30:01 pm
Ah, we are on to armchair experts. Excellent ;D
I can give you some pretty good advice on how to dismantle a Vision rear hub... I've never done it myself, but I have done other hubs, so I have an understanding of the process...
Or if you prefer you can wait until someone who has done it comes along... it might well be that his advice is worse than mine though...
Or viceversa
How do Vision rear hubs differ from other makes / models of hubs when it comes to disassembly?
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 26 April, 2021, 04:33:50 pm
Ah, we are on to armchair experts. Excellent ;D
I can give you some pretty good advice on how to dismantle a Vision rear hub... I've never done it myself, but I have done other hubs, so I have an understanding of the process...
Or if you prefer you can wait until someone who has done it comes along... it might well be that his advice is worse than mine though...
Or viceversa
How do Vision rear hubs differ from other makes / models of hubs when it comes to disassembly?
Depends which Vision..., say the Team 35 (not SL)
They use a 12 mm Allen key to remove the freehub instead of an 11... you need to remove the DS bearing to access the allen key slot, they use different bearing sizes from other hubs, they don't have a way to preload the bearings...
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 26 April, 2021, 04:35:31 pm
Post by: Lightning Phil on 26 April, 2021, 04:39:20 pm
Ah, we are on to armchair experts. Excellent ;D
I can give you some pretty good advice on how to dismantle a Vision rear hub... I've never done it myself, but I have done other hubs, so I have an understanding of the process...
Or if you prefer you can wait until someone who has done it comes along... it might well be that his advice is worse than mine though...
Or viceversa
How do Vision rear hubs differ from other makes / models of hubs when it comes to disassembly?
Depends which Vision..., say the Team 35 (not SL)
They use a 12 mm Allen key to remove the freehub instead of an 11... you need to remove the DS bearing to access the allen key slot, they use different bearing sizes from other hubs, they don't have a way to preload the bearings...
Sounds straightforward. What are the major problems you might encounter and what are the possible solutions?
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 26 April, 2021, 05:02:58 pm
I am sorry but I am not erudite like wot u r so could you give us names?
Surely you have something better to do...
Post by: LiamFitz on 26 April, 2021, 05:10:45 pm
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 26 April, 2021, 05:40:22 pm
Not really. I am off work with lurgy and feeding the troll is quite funny. never really done it before but I can see the enjoyment. Bit like talking to scammers about Microsoft when sat at an iMac!I am sorry but I am not erudite like wot u r so could you give us names?
Surely you have something better to do...
Post by: fimm on 26 April, 2021, 06:01:55 pm
The article you linked to is agreeing with what everyone else is saying. Over shorter distances men are faster. When you get to ultra distances running, swimming, cycling, women are starting to beat men outright (by going faster, at faster average speeds).
And in at least one case, doing off the bike things men will never have to do, such as expressing breast milk for their young child, as is the case of Jasmijn Paris on the spine race.
J
Oh FFS. She was not breast feeding her child, or even expressing breast milk in order to feed her child. She was expressing breast milk because she needed to for her own comfort because she hadn't quite weaned the child before the race started, so she was still producing milk, and just stopping would have been uncomfortable and bad.
I'm not denying her achievement for one moment, but this thing about her expressing milk for her child simply isn't true.
Jasmin held the outright record for the Ramsay round for a while. Then she was part of the support crew that helped one of her club-mates to take a minute off the record. Then last summer another man went and took an hour off it...
Post by: Davef on 26 April, 2021, 09:38:47 pm
However she says ...
Oh FFS. She was not breast feeding her child, or even expressing breast milk in order to feed her child. She was expressing breast milk because she needed to for her own comfort because she hadn't quite weaned the child before the race started, so she was still producing milk, and just stopping would have been uncomfortable and bad.
I'm not denying her achievement for one moment, but this thing about her expressing milk for her child simply isn't true.
Quote
I had thought I would have stopped breast feeding by this point and tried when Rowan was one, but over Christmas she got two viruses and I had to go back to feeding her multiple times throughout the night to soothe her
Unless you can corroborate your inside knowledge, I would take the mother’s word as to why she was expressing milk.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 April, 2021, 09:57:08 pm
The article you linked to is agreeing with what everyone else is saying. Over shorter distances men are faster. When you get to ultra distances running, swimming, cycling, women are starting to beat men outright (by going faster, at faster average speeds).
And in at least one case, doing off the bike things men will never have to do, such as expressing breast milk for their young child, as is the case of Jasmijn Paris on the spine race.
J
Oh FFS. She was not breast feeding her child, or even expressing breast milk in order to feed her child. She was expressing breast milk because she needed to for her own comfort because she hadn't quite weaned the child before the race started, so she was still producing milk, and just stopping would have been uncomfortable and bad.
I'm not denying her achievement for one moment, but this thing about her expressing milk for her child simply isn't true.
Jasmin held the outright record for the Ramsay round for a while. Then she was part of the support crew that helped one of her club-mates to take a minute off the record. Then last summer another man went and took an hour off it...
I don't know enough to question either way. However the point remains, men do not have to pause mid race to express breast milk, whether to feed their child, or just for comfort purposes...
J
Post by: Fidgetbuzz on 26 April, 2021, 10:55:55 pm
Sounds straightforward. What are the major problems you might encounter and what are the possible solutions?
[/quote]
Please please stop taking the p*ss and answer the poor mans question .. who holds the record in what time .. I know i was close many years ago ..or was that just fantasy as I slept under the tables at Kings
Post by: cygnet on 26 April, 2021, 11:04:35 pm
Is it as simple as naming it the BCM Classic? (Worked for the Surrey-London in the pro ranks.)
Is the BCM (Classic) the "classic" route, or is it the BCM (Scenic)?
Post by: Davef on 27 April, 2021, 06:41:13 am
I believe Lonely Planet’s Epic bike rides of the world might be responsible.
Post by: fimm on 27 April, 2021, 08:58:07 am
The article you linked to is agreeing with what everyone else is saying. Over shorter distances men are faster. When you get to ultra distances running, swimming, cycling, women are starting to beat men outright (by going faster, at faster average speeds).
And in at least one case, doing off the bike things men will never have to do, such as expressing breast milk for their young child, as is the case of Jasmijn Paris on the spine race.
J
Oh FFS. She was not breast feeding her child, or even expressing breast milk in order to feed her child. She was expressing breast milk because she needed to for her own comfort because she hadn't quite weaned the child before the race started, so she was still producing milk, and just stopping would have been uncomfortable and bad.
I'm not denying her achievement for one moment, but this thing about her expressing milk for her child simply isn't true.
Jasmin held the outright record for the Ramsay round for a while. Then she was part of the support crew that helped one of her club-mates to take a minute off the record. Then last summer another man went and took an hour off it...
Having posted the above, I realised that QG had merely been quoting the article she'd linked to, so here are Jasmin's own words on the subject, from http://jasminfellrunner.blogspot.com/2020/01/spine-race.html :
Quote
Of a greater concern to me was the thought of leaving my family for up to a week, in particular because - in spite of my intention for her to be weaned by January – Rowan was still breastfeeding at regular intervals as the race day approached. Knowing that I didn’t want to force the matter (at 13 months she no longer really needed breastmilk and rarely asked for it when I wasn’t there, but it was an important part of our relationship), I made sure there was a sufficient supply of frozen expressed breast milk in the freezer to cover my absence, and resigned myself to pumping at checkpoints (mastitis on the Spine was the last thing I needed).
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 27 April, 2021, 09:30:00 am
Sounds straightforward. What are the major problems you might encounter and what are the possible solutions?
Please please stop taking the p*ss and answer the poor mans question .. who holds the record in what time .. I know i was close many years ago ..or was that just fantasy as I slept under the tables at Kings
[/quote]
I reached Menai at just after 6pm one year, when the weather and my legs were good and I was on my fast bike. I was in a group of 4. I took the option of a sleep at Kings on the way back and finished in a civilised time, but I believe the first rider back was home at about 11am, which would have been 29 hours. That was the earliest finish in any of the BCMs I rode. That would have been the Classic route. Anyone who could do BCM in 24 hours, self-supported, over the hills, would be capable of 475+ in a 24 hour TT and most likely would be competing for a podium position.
Post by: Fidgetbuzz on 27 April, 2021, 10:57:23 am
Surely I had to slow down as I passed Tintern Abbey to be over the 20 hours minimum .... well I can dream !!!!
What a bizarre pointless thread .
Post by: Hot Flatus on 27 April, 2021, 11:28:59 am
Post by: Frank9755 on 28 April, 2021, 12:10:51 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 28 April, 2021, 12:22:04 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 April, 2021, 12:56:14 pm
Whosatthewheel etc
Oh. I hadn't connected the two. Makes perfect sense in hindsight.
J
Post by: mattc on 28 April, 2021, 06:47:58 pm
Whosatthewheel etcHave to admit, you're good at this. :thumbsup:
Anyway, did anyone see a whiff of "Big fish in small pond" about the whole query?
Post by: giropaul on 29 April, 2021, 08:56:53 am
. Did anyone read the Arrivee story about a Midland hill climber and time trial rider ?
Post by: Ajax Bay on 29 April, 2021, 01:24:47 pm
Apropos of nothing in particular.https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6531.msg2603192;topicseen#msg2603192
. Did anyone read the Arrivee story about a Midland hill climber and time trial rider ?
I'm surprised there wasn't more 'feedback' on whether reporting a 'hill climb' campaign was subverting the proper function of "the long-distance cyclists' association - members' magazine". Perhaps there'll be a page of letters about it in the next Arrivee saying what a breath of fresh air focusing on a 2 minute (winning time) race brought to our insular (British Isles) long distance cycling community.
Post by: Alex B on 01 May, 2021, 08:26:34 am
.. who holds the record in what time ..
Bringing this back to the original question, it seems from chatter here (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=104545.500) and elsewhere on YACF, that it's said Nik Gardner rode the 2018 BCM in 23:40, on a Surly Cross Check single-speed, geared at ~70 gear inches.
So it seems the first step for any aspiring "record" challengers is to get a heavy steel bike with no gears :P
As has already been pointed out, talk of a "record" in an audax context doesn't really make sense, and for the BCM it is doubly nonsensical as the course has changed over the years, being notably over-distance in the pre-Tout era, for example.
Post by: Ian H on 01 May, 2021, 02:12:50 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 01 May, 2021, 02:14:45 pm
.. who holds the record in what time ..
Bringing this back to the original question, it seems from chatter here (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=104545.500) and elsewhere on YACF, that it's said Nik Gardner rode the 2018 BCM in 23:40, on a Surly Cross Check single-speed, geared at ~70 gear inches.
So it seems the first step for any aspiring "record" challengers is to get a heavy steel bike with no gears :P
As has already been pointed out, talk of a "record" in an audax context doesn't really make sense, and for the BCM it is doubly nonsensical as the course has changed over the years, being notably over-distance in the pre-Tout era, for example.
Under distance ;)
Post by: grams on 01 May, 2021, 02:20:38 pm
Post by: Ajax Bay on 01 May, 2021, 06:24:09 pm
In 2018 the route sheet route was ~596 km and longer routes were possible.FTFY ;)
Post by: mattc on 02 May, 2021, 10:16:20 am
This is a PB
(And it was 314km)
Post by: Ajax Bay on 02 May, 2021, 10:48:34 pm
For the record I have just finished a AAA 300 in 14th place.The organiser was so pleased when you finished in the early hours. She said you deserved a prize.
This is a PB (And it was 314km)
Post by: mattc on 04 May, 2021, 06:05:37 pm
A prize?? No need for trinkets - a Top 15 finish for my palmares was reward enough. :smug:For the record I have just finished a AAA 300 in 14th place.The organiser was so pleased when you finished in the early hours. She said you deserved a prize.
This is a PB (And it was 314km)