e-scooter trial

[Kim]

I noticed on the station yesterday, on the way into work, a sign announcing that e-scooters and the like are not permitted on trains and stations, owing to concerns over battery safety. I thought it a bit odd, on that basis, that e-bikes are still allowed. Are the batteries different, or are the train companies being somewhat disingenuous?

I believe the reasoning is that scooter batteries are more of a fire hazard, on the basis that they're mounted in a way that makes them more susceptible to physical damage.  I expect that there's a greater low-end chinesium factor too.

Pragmatically, the main risk from e-bikes is injury from trying to lift them into dangly bike spaces.  I expect the main risk from scooters is actually oiks riding them on the platforms, but that was already banned, and if something's worth banning, it's worth banning twice.

Do mobile phone and laptop batteries never catch fire?

Notoriously (remember the Dell recall about 10 years ago?), but they're small enough that the fire is easier to fight, unless you're on an aeroplane or in a hospital bed^[1] or something.  I expect in a train context it's about whether it's enough to overwhelm the fireproofing, and/or fill the cabin with toxic fumes faster than it can reasonably be evacuated.


_{[1] The ROH has signs up banning USB power banks, after a couple of incidents where they set fire to bedding^[2].
[2] People's assessment of risk is weird.  They'll get worked up about the flammability of Teslas, but think nothing of charging their phone under a duvet.}

[Cudzoziemiec]

Are people lifting e-scooters into danglebike cupboards? Their size and shape would make it easier to put them in a luggage rack, and I expect usage patterns mean they're more likely to be found on local services anyway.

[Kim]

I've seen unpowered scooters abandoned in the CrossCountry bike cupboard, but it wasn't using the danglehooks.  I think they mostly use the luggage racks, Brompton-style.

[Cudzoziemiec]

That would seem easier. (And, I suppose, could be cited as another fire risk; in the luggage racks, they're likely to have heavy luggage dumped on top of them, causing ~physical damage~ of some sort to the battery.)

[Cudzoziemiec]

The e-scooter is dead, long live the e-scooter. Green instead of pink. And confusingly described e-bikes:

As well as 4,000 e-scooters available for hire, there will be 1,500 pedal-only e-bikes (WESTbike) and  20 e-cargo bikes (WESTcargo).

I suppose they're trying to say that these will be standard EAPCs, no assistance without pedalling. The box bikes might prove useful.

And there's a chance some of these e-scoots might even be responsibly parked:

This money will be “reinvested in future West of England transport improvements”, including for 100 e-scooter parking racks around the city.

“WESTscoot must build on the successes of e-scooters in our West of England region which has been one of the most successful trials anywhere in Europe,” Norris said.

“But it must also address the legitimate concerns residents often voice over poor and irresponsible e-scooter parking.”

https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/no-more-vois-in-bristol-as-contract-ends/

[ian]

Do mobile phone and laptop batteries never catch fire?

My once-upon-a-Dell did, causing the evacuation of an office building and the attendance of the local fire department (all of them). The dumped a large bucket of sand on top of it, opened all the windows, and went for lunch at the Mexican restaurant next door.

[quixoticgeek]

Do mobile phone and laptop batteries never catch fire?

It's a question of how much energy is stored in the battery to go boom.

Phones and laptops (Dell, as others have mentioned), and even 787 aircraft, all have issues with batteries going boom.

The difference between a laptop and a E-scooter, is that a laptop such as a 14" imac is 69.6Wh in capacity, where as a scooter is 150-600Wh. That's quite a bit more energy to go boom.

There's a reason you can't take more than 100Wh lipo packs on an aircraft.

There's also the question of how things are charged. We don't tend to rapid charge laptops, where as the charging of ebikes and escooters and e-cars are all done at horribly high rates. Which puts more stress on the battery, which increases the risk it goes boom.

In short, there's a lot of shit large lipo batteries out there with poor design, that are very easily able to go boom.

J

[barakta]

Powered wheelchair users have to jump a ZILLION hoops to get their wheelchair batteries onto flights and I've seen wheelchair using friends have bus, coach and train services to refuse them boarding "cos battery might catch fire" even tho wheelchair batteries are usually medical grade equipment not dodgy Chinesium (most people don't buy the Chinesium, or don't do it twice cos they don't last and are a false economy). They're also super expensive at like £300 per battery minimum (and often twice that).

[Kim]

I spotted a Beryl-branded scooter earlier.  They appear to be picking up where Voi left off.  https://beryl.cc/scheme/west-midlands-e-scooters

In a shocking turnout of common sense, not only do they use the same app as the hire bikes, but the pricing is such that for most journeys the scooters are more expensive than the bikes, including the e-bikes.  Will this convert many scooterboys to cycling?  Probably, on a whichever is most convenient at the time basis.

[Cudzoziemiec]

e-scooters (still officially "on trial" after three years) are like cars: getting bigger.

Tier e-scooters are noticeably larger than Vois – photo: Charlie Watts

https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/end-road-voi-bristol/

[Kim]

e-scooters (still officially "on trial" after three years) are like cars: getting bigger.

Tier e-scooters are noticeably larger than Vois – photo: Charlie Watts

https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/end-road-voi-bristol/

Easily-swappable battery and a slightly longer wheelbase?  Looks like a smidge more ground-clearance too.  Probably good things.  Hard to tell if the wheels are any bigger, which would surely be the best way to improve a scooter that never has to be picked up and carried by the user.

Of course, it's more pavement clutter, but the solution to that isn't smaller scooters.


Speaking of larger scooters, the comedy entry for Sunday's BHPC race is one of these things: https://www.yedoo.eu/en/product/yedoo-trexx-adults-scooter-3xReua

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've yet to see one – they don't officially arrive till Saturday – so can't comment on wheels, ground clearance, etc. We were promised docks but it seems to have gone quiet on that.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Speaking of larger scooters, the comedy entry for Sunday's BHPC race is one of these things: https://www.yedoo.eu/en/product/yedoo-trexx-adults-scooter-3xReua

Well, I expect it to be in a class of its own. (no, not adminwise)

[Cudzoziemiec]

e-scooters (still officially "on trial" after three years) are like cars: getting bigger.

Tier e-scooters are noticeably larger than Vois – photo: Charlie Watts

https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/end-road-voi-bristol/

Easily-swappable battery and a slightly longer wheelbase?  Looks like a smidge more ground-clearance too.  Probably good things.  Hard to tell if the wheels are any bigger, which would surely be the best way to improve a scooter that never has to be picked up and carried by the user.

I've seen the last Voi in Bristol*, dead, lying on the pavement. And the first Tiers are here. So I can confirm that they have identical 8.5-inch wheels. In fact they're almost identical scooters: just an external battery pack and a longer, sightly wider (I think) deck.

*I'm sure some will linger for a few years. Even the Yo bikes are still seen occasionally, in various disguises.

[Adam]

e-scooters (still officially "on trial" after three years) are like cars: getting bigger.

Tier e-scooters are noticeably larger than Vois – photo: Charlie Watts

https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/end-road-voi-bristol/

I was just thinking that it's handy they're next to the rubbish bin.  But then I remembered you're not supposed to put Li-on batteries in the rubbish.  Chichester tip has burned down twice in the last 4 years due to battery fires.

[JonBuoy]

E-bikes and e-scooters set to be banned from parts of Coventry city centre later this month
Plans to ban the vehicles are expected to be approved at a council meeting next week and could be implemented as soon as November 20

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/e-bikes-e-scooters-set-28019500

Good luck with enforcing that!

[davelodwig]

So do they mean e bikes like my cargo bike because if I got stopped I'd just ask them to have a crack at pushing it.

[JonBuoy]

Is an E-bike with the assistance set to zero still an E-bike?

[Kim]

So they want to ban something to solve a problem that's already illegal?  How very BRITISH

[Cudzoziemiec]

Not entirely illegal. It seems that Coventry does have an e-scooter hire scheme: https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/e-scooters-back-coventry-not-20318533

Also, a PSPO means they can slap you with a fine just for being there, rather than have to argue the ins and outs of law in court. Probably. And of course, Coventry has old people and Mail readers just like everywhere else.

[Kim]

Ah well, it's only Young People who use those, so bring it on(!)

[barakta]

I wonder what proof they are going to want about disabled people claiming use as a mobility aid? Cos if the start hassling disabled people on e-scooters or e-cycles, some of us will fight back and I know just the tools we could use.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I wonder what proof they are going to want about disabled people claiming use as a mobility aid? Cos if the start hassling disabled people on e-scooters or e-cycles, some of us will fight back and I know just the tools we could use.

Presumably such tools could also be used regarding non-assisted cycles used by disabled people as a mobility aid? Thinking of the one or two places which use PSPO to ban non-electric cycling.

[Kim]

I wonder what proof they are going to want about disabled people claiming use as a mobility aid? Cos if the start hassling disabled people on e-scooters or e-cycles, some of us will fight back and I know just the tools we could use.

The usual one: Whether they think you look disabled.  Ie. whether you're riding something suitably unusual or have visible signs of impairment, multiplied by the standard prejudices on the grounds of age and race, and divided by the attitude test.

In the words of Lord Buckethead: It will be a shitshow.

[fd3]

My daughter is disabled, my wife isn't.  So, canmy wife cycle my daughter to school on a cargo bike?  Once my daughter is in school, is my wife no longer allowed to ride the bike?
Oh, cars you say.

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I am minded of a nurse who criticised a parent for pramming Thier twins, but who didn't blink at driving them about