Author Topic: Research / evidence of benefits (to motorists) of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods  (Read 7101 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Agreed, but that ignores that in many cases driving is faster than walking/cycling. That's the point.

As I've said, by far the quickest way for me to get to my local leisure centre would be to drive.

Walking: It's 1km so it's about 10 minutes.
Cycling: I have to walk to where I store my bike, open that up, unlock the bike, lock up the store. Ride there. Lock up the bike and go in. Probably 3 minutes riding and 5 minutes faff, so 8 minutes in total.
Driving: Walk outside, get in the car, drive 1km on empty local residential side roads, cross one major road, park up in the car park that always has spaces (and if not I'm still in the same parking CPZ so I can park on a nearby street). 5 minutes, 6 if I had to drive around to find a space somewhere else.

It's the same for me to go to my local supermarket. Similar distance. No parking problems as it is the same CPZ. No local congestion as these are residential roads.

How can we make it so cycling or walking is the easier choice then?

Round here if I had a car (I don't), driving to my local supermarket would be a case of driving in the wrong direction for about 3 minutes, until I get to a traffic light that is always red, then I can drive the 3km in the right direction to the supermarket, then hope that the 3 parking spaces in front are available... which they often aren't.

Or I can throw my backpack on my bag, put my brompton in the lift, carry it outside, unfold it, cycle the 2km to the store, stop next to the door, fold the brompton, carry it inside, put it in trolley, wander round picking up shopping, pay, put shopping in backpack, take brompton out of trolley, carry outside, unfold, ride home, fold, carry inside, and done...

All because it's too damn hard to drive there...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Davef

I was in Odensa for a few days in 2018 and was impressed by the amount of cycling. It was prohibitively expensive to park in the town centre (£14 minimum whether for an hour or a day I recall). Seem to work. Everyone cycled.

This is also not considering the fact that the wankpanzer and any other car are weatherproof and people don't think they are. It's a nice sunny morning here, Mrs Trekker and I went for our now daily pre-breakfast walk and saw lots of people out and about either walking, cycling, exercising in the park etc. Yesterday in a one hour deluge there was no-one about at all. Our walk takes us along some busy roads, along a pedestrian only dockside and through a park, we saw one or two bikes and a couple of joggers.

Selling the joys of cycling and walking during July is a lot easier than convincing someone it's lovely in November and December.

This is not an easy thing to sell to someone who already doesn't want to listen.
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
This is also not considering the fact that the wankpanzer and any other car are weatherproof and people don't think they are. It's a nice sunny morning here, Mrs Trekker and I went for our now daily pre-breakfast walk and saw lots of people out and about either walking, cycling, exercising in the park etc. Yesterday in a one hour deluge there was no-one about at all. Our walk takes us along some busy roads, along a pedestrian only dockside and through a park, we saw one or two bikes and a couple of joggers.

Selling the joys of cycling and walking during July is a lot easier than convincing someone it's lovely in November and December.

This is not an easy thing to sell to someone who already doesn't want to listen.

To paraphrase the Dutch "Are you made of sugar?!"

Some Dutchees will ride with an Umbrella, which always makes me want to steel it and drive it into their spokes. But everyone else we just own waterproof jackets and many of us waterproof trousers too.

It's not hard.

Oh, and good gloves.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

I ride all year. When I'm not riding a bike I'm out walking. I can easily justify the cost of a proper rain jacket and I'm fully waterproof. My work colleagues however think I'm crazy by cycling through the winter 14 miles to work. There's clean clothes in my locker and a shower at the office. Add 15 minutes to the commute for that - 20 on days I have to queue for the shower and many offices don't have showers.

I'm not made of sugar. Many people have been conditioned to think they are. My anecdotal example over the past 24 hours in July showed me that. Traffic is much worse in winter.
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

There's clean clothes in my locker and a shower at the office. Add 15 minutes to the commute for that - 20 on days I have to queue for the shower and many offices don't have showers.

The shower doesn't really add much time though. I had a conversation with a colleague that went something like this:-

Me: My commute is 30 minutes by bike and it's about 45 minutes by train.
Them: But you have to have a shower and get changed at work, so they're about equal.
Me: Do you shower at home before coming in to work?
Them: Yes.
Me: So the shower time doesn't count. If you're not including it in your commute time by train then I don't have to include it in my commute time by bike.
Them: But but but...

I couldn't commute in by bike or run if I didn't have a shower at work. Wet wipes just wouldn't cut it and I'm not in often enough to warrant paying even £30/month for a nearby gym membership (in order to use their showers).

If I ever moved jobs it would have to be a serious consideration. Then again, I can't imagine I won't be working remotely pretty much forever more.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Agreed, but that ignores that in many cases driving is faster than walking/cycling. That's the point.

I think you live in an outerer borough than me. Round here (Islington) car only wins if your journey doesn't take you  one of the handful of constantly backed-up pinch points (due to railways, mostly) or you're travelling when it isn't busy. *And* it'll still lose if you have to look for parking.

The actual thing to bare in mind is trip chaining. It may be that she drives 2km from the office to the gym, but the may then drive 10km from the Gym to pick up the kids etc...

Trip chaining is one of the worst things to do by car if the stops involve looking for a parking space or take you back and forth through the same pinch points.


How can we make it so cycling or walking is the easier choice then?

That's partly what the LTN stuff is for. You discourage through traffic through neighbourhoods by blocking off roads, limiting access, etc. That makes the roads in the neighbourhood nicer and more people will consider cycling/walking, especially if there's some dedicated cycle infrastructure thrown in. Reduce the width of the roads and increase pavement width. This attenuates traffic speeds which also encourages cycling.

For my situation (and many other examples) a 1km journey to my local leisure centre or supermarket is quicker/easier by car because of numerous reasons:-
a) I have a car, and I have a car because it's not annoying or too expensive
b) Parking is easy outside my house - if I had to park my car further away that would eat into the convenience
c) Parking outside my house is not prohibitively expensive - I don't have off street parking and some people may balk at the £160 I have to pay a year for this but, all in, the car costs aren't too much
d) My on street parking permit means I can park up to about 1km away as it is all in the same CPZ (Controlled Parking Zone) - this makes it convenient for the gym and the supermarket
e) I have a bike but I have to store it somewhere a few hundred yards away, I don't have anywhere convenient to store it so it's "just there" like the car is
f) I can drive directly on quiet residential roads to get to the the gym/supermarket without having to go on major roads

If any of those things start to change then it's going to be less convenient for that journey to be done by car:-
a/c) If MOT, insurance or parking costs increased I'd consider getting rid of it and just using Zipcars[1] when really required
b) On street parking is not in short supply round here, the roads are wide enough for cars to be parked either side and still allow traffic to flow freely both ways. Widening the pavements (in a post Covid-19 world) would increase pavement size and cut down on available on-street parking. Residents would object, of course, but it's one way of squeezing things
d) Smaller controlled parking zones would mean less convenience for me. Many people wouldn't choose to pay to park their car for the 1h for the gym or 10 minutes for the supermarket regularly, many will use the car because they can park for free because 1km is still within their home zone.
e) A bikehanger type storage right nearby would make it easier for me to store a hackbike in there that I'd use for local utility cycling. There are security problems with those bike hangers and I wouldn't trust any bike more than £100 or so in one.
f) Again, the LTN can have an effect on this. Make roads one way. Split large residential areas up into sections and stop internal traffic driving most of the way across them. Right now there's nothing stopping me driving most of the way through the neighbourhood in any direction. Make it harder or more annoying for me to do this short journey. The problem start once I want to go more than 1km away as I get onto the larger distributor roads and the traffic grinds to a halt. Again they'll be a big pushback from the local community against this but fuck it.

(Again, I don't actually drive to the gym or supermarket. I choose to walk or cycle even though it's less convenient and takes longer.)

1. We've done this to death elsewhere. I've done the sums and I'm teetering on the edge of being better off just using a Zipcar when necessary and so it wouldn't take much of an increase in one of the expenses and I'd be getting rid of the car. In reality the car is getting cheaper each year as my NCD builds up and my insurance goes down.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
e) I have a bike but I have to store it somewhere a few hundred yards away, I don't have anywhere convenient to store it so it's "just there" like the car is

Replace that parking space for your car, with a bike hanger for your bike.

A simple change.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

e) I have a bike but I have to store it somewhere a few hundred yards away, I don't have anywhere convenient to store it so it's "just there" like the car is

Replace that parking space for your car, with a bike hanger for your bike.

A simple change.

Unlikely to get one due to lack of local support. Most people near me have garages or other places to store bikes. They also have bikes that they wouldn't risk in a bike hanger. One sole application wouldn't be enough for the council to put one in locally. (Nearest one is more than a mile away: https://haveyoursay.citizenspace.com/wandsworthecs/bikehangars20/ )

Anyway, this thread isn't about solving my problems specifically. It's about why many people can't/don't want to use anything other than their cars.

I'm just trying to give concrete examples of why people do rather than the "but most journeys are slower by car" when many are demonstrably not.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

HTFB

  • The Monkey and the Plywood Violin
My Local council has introduced a handful of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods in the area (none near where I live) by restricting access to some roads to pedestrians, cycles and those who live there. The consultation was a bit rubbish, using COVID as a rationale for doing it quickly, and not all the changes have been well-implemented.  However, from what I've seen, the streets that have been reprioritised - along with many of those nearby - are much more pleasant as a result.

If this isn't Lewisham it's spookily alike. "The consulation was a bit rubbish" is a dry understatement.
Not especially helpful or mature

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Trip chaining is pretty much why I don't do my shopping by bike. It's easy to sling a backpack on my back, walk out the door and 10 minutes later (probably less) I'm going in the first shop. Or nowadays, queuing outside it, but that's another topic! Then the next one, a few doors along, and so on. Doing it by bike, I first ride to the bike racks, which are just beyond the greengrocer's – the furthest away shop. I then have to walk up and down the street with a pannier in my hand getting steadily heavier. So actually, the reason I don't do most of the shopping by bike is because of weedy cyclist arms!  ;) ::-) (Yes, I do have a shoulder strap for the pannier somewhere – but it's still not a comfortable way of carrying things. No, I really don't like riding with a heavy bag on my back.)

If I were to do the same trip(s) by car, parking might be a problem – there is free parking on the main road (where the shops are) but not many spaces, the residential streets off it are RPZ and it's not our RPZ (Greenbank's Zs must be quite a bit larger) – but not insurmountable. I'd have to put a loop into an otherwise linear journey (or else risk a U-turn on the main road), that would be a pain. But mostly, it's cos I don't have a car. And one of the main reasons I don't have a car is cos all the shops are so close.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Trip chaining is pretty much why I don't do my shopping by bike. It's easy to sling a backpack on my back, walk out the door and 10 minutes later (probably less) I'm going in the first shop. Or nowadays, queuing outside it, but that's another topic! Then the next one, a few doors along, and so on. Doing it by bike, I first ride to the bike racks, which are just beyond the greengrocer's – the furthest away shop. I then have to walk up and down the street with a pannier in my hand getting steadily heavier. So actually, the reason I don't do most of the shopping by bike is because of weedy cyclist arms!  ;) ::-) (Yes, I do have a shoulder strap for the pannier somewhere – but it's still not a comfortable way of carrying things. No, I really don't like riding with a heavy bag on my back.)

Umm, the obvious thing to do would be to take backpack and pannier. Cycle there, fill up backpack as you shop, walk back to bike, transfer contents to pannier, cycle home without heavy bag on your back. Best of both worlds.

(Greenbank's Zs must be quite a bit larger)

https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/parking-zones/putney-parking-zones/

They don't look big but I'm in one of the Southern most bits of the A3 zone and it's 1km between me and the swimming pool on that map (which is still inside the yellow A3 zone).

Split that entire A3 zone into 4 different slightly overlapping zones and you'd solve quite a few of the nonsense journeys that go on.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless

Umm, the obvious thing to do would be to take backpack and pannier. Cycle there, fill up backpack as you shop, walk back to bike, transfer contents to pannier, cycle home without heavy bag on your back. Best of both worlds.

Or a Nurses lock, and lock your bike up outside each shop. Much easier...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Nurses lock and stand might be a worthwhile solution with a different bike, along with less bike theft and, the biggest obstacle, wider pavements. They weren't wide enough even in the pre-queue era. (But are they being widened? No.)

Backpack and pannier? Maybe, but it's hardly worth it. In fact, it might be (very slightly) detrimental, as speeding up the shopping would mean less time outside!

I think the point I wanted to make was in my last two sentences: I don't drive because I don't have a car, and I don't have a car because of all the local shops (among other things, but it makes it super-unnecessary).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
My Local council has introduced a handful of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods in the area (none near where I live) by restricting access to some roads to pedestrians, cycles and those who live there. The consultation was a bit rubbish, using COVID as a rationale for doing it quickly, and not all the changes have been well-implemented.  However, from what I've seen, the streets that have been reprioritised - along with many of those nearby - are much more pleasant as a result.

If this isn't Lewisham it's spookily alike. "The consulation was a bit rubbish" is a dry understatement.

It's Lewisham. And it has been done as hopelessly as the introduction of the 20mph speed limits was implemented.
Why should anybody steal a watch when they can steal a bicycle?

If it's anything like Islington then "consultations" aren't worth bothering with anyway.  The council have a plan, go through a meaningless consultation which costs money and time, then implement their original plan anyway, irrespective of the findings.  It's simply to enable them to say they've had a consultation!

It depends what side of the argument you are on as to whether this is a good or bad thing  ;)
The sound of one pannier flapping

Consultations only exist because various laws say you have to post advance notice of things you're planning to do and accept feedback during that period. Exactly what you're meant to do with that feedback is incredibly fuzzy, especially if it's overwrought nonsense, or people who've mistaken it for a referendum.

And under the Experimental Traffic Order rules - which Islington are using for their LTNs - you don't even have to do that. You can put the changes in with close to zero notice and the consultation happens at the end, which is going to be 18 months later when the changes should have become the status quo.

Indeed.  The natives are brandishing the pitchforks because they weren't "consulted".  As you say, LBI aren't required to consult, and such things are largely futile, tick-box exercises anyway.

It will go the same way as motorbikes in bus lanes - "trial" period for 18 months (IIRC).  By the end of that everyone has forgotten it's a trial and it becomes the de facto norm (although I believe that actually was subject to a "consultation" - not that my views were accommodated). ::-)  As I say, it cuts both ways depending on your views.  In this case I'm happy  ;)
The sound of one pannier flapping

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
It will go the same way as motorbikes in bus lanes - "trial" period for 18 months (IIRC).  By the end of that everyone has forgotten it's a trial and it becomes the de facto norm (although I believe that actually was subject to a "consultation" - not that my views were accommodated). ::-)  As I say, it cuts both ways depending on your views.  In this case I'm happy  ;)
I'd forgotten about that; a rare example of "the magic London transport bubble" actually being behind the rest of the country!
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

LBIslington are being quite bullish in spite of the pitchfork brigade

http://islingtontribune.com/article/roads-row-back-down
The sound of one pannier flapping

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
From the article:

Quote
Aideen O’Shea, who lives in Grantbridge Street off Essex Road, said the road closures where (sic) “ridiculous”. Her daughter lives in Wharf Road with her two grandchildren.

Ms O’Shea said: “It used to take her five minutes to drop off the kids. Now they have closed Wharf Road so she has to drive all the way up City Road and Angel to get here.

If it used to take five minutes by car how long would it take on foot, Granny Gam-Gam?  Beastly council, wanting to make her grandkiddiewinks actually walk!  They might get wet, or tread on a dog egg, or fall into the paws of the Paedobear, or be offered Drugs, or be abducted by aliens!
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Agreed, but that ignores that in many cases driving is faster than walking/cycling. That's the point.

As I've said, by far the quickest way for me to get to my local leisure centre would be to drive.

Walking: It's 1km so it's about 10 minutes.
Cycling: I have to walk to where I store my bike, open that up, unlock the bike, lock up the store. Ride there. Lock up the bike and go in. Probably 3 minutes riding and 5 minutes faff, so 8 minutes in total.
Driving: Walk outside, get in the car, drive 1km on empty local residential side roads, cross one major road, park up in the car park that always has spaces (and if not I'm still in the same parking CPZ so I can park on a nearby street). 5 minutes, 6 if I had to drive around to find a space somewhere else.

It's the same for me to go to my local supermarket. Similar distance. No parking problems as it is the same CPZ. No local congestion as these are residential roads.

How can we make it so cycling or walking is the easier choice then?

Round here if I had a car (I don't), driving to my local supermarket would be a case of driving in the wrong direction for about 3 minutes, until I get to a traffic light that is always red, then I can drive the 3km in the right direction to the supermarket, then hope that the 3 parking spaces in front are available... which they often aren't.

Or I can throw my backpack on my bag, put my brompton in the lift, carry it outside, unfold it, cycle the 2km to the store, stop next to the door, fold the brompton, carry it inside, put it in trolley, wander round picking up shopping, pay, put shopping in backpack, take brompton out of trolley, carry outside, unfold, ride home, fold, carry inside, and done...

All because it's too damn hard to drive there...

J

All that because you are not buying for a partner and three starving kids. (I might add that you have a lift that works which is sometimes a bit of a luxury in these parts but that has nothing to do with the pro/anti-car arguments)
I think that for 2km I would forgo the backpack and use a wheeled shopping basket (a stairclimber if I needed lifts, for the occasions when the lifts were out - advantage, zero chance of the bike getting pinched) but madame insists on driving 14km to fill the boot of a 20yr old estate car. That's exercising choice in a democracy for you. (She wouldn't be seen dead driving to a gym - or getting there any other way either!)

What is making this thread very interesting for me is how it demonstrates just how big the differences are between the major urban areas and our relatively little (200 000 population with the satellites) agglomeration. Really I have no notion at all of the problems of you londoners!

From the article:

Quote
Aideen O’Shea, who lives in Grantbridge Street off Essex Road, said the road closures where (sic) “ridiculous”. Her daughter lives in Wharf Road with her two grandchildren.

Ms O’Shea said: “It used to take her five minutes to drop off the kids. Now they have closed Wharf Road so she has to drive all the way up City Road and Angel to get here.

If it used to take five minutes by car how long would it take on foot, Granny Gam-Gam?  Beastly council, wanting to make her grandkiddiewinks actually walk!  They might get wet, or tread on a dog egg, or fall into the paws of the Paedobear, or be offered Drugs, or be abducted by aliens!

It's actually a few hundred yards - certainly not a mile.  I have pointed out as much (in alias mode) in the comments.  That will really piss off the pitchfork mob.  Heavens forbid they will be made to walk  ::-)
The sound of one pannier flapping