Author Topic: To go tubeless or stay tubed.  (Read 8956 times)

To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #175 on: April 12, 2021, 01:51:08 pm »
There are a large number of people that race that aren’t professionals. Triathlon is hugely popular as are sportives. Just for general riding I can see a get me home run flat would be a winner. I will be doing some investigating. Could be good for CX too.

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Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #176 on: April 12, 2021, 01:58:13 pm »
There are a large number of people that race that aren’t professionals. Triathlon is hugely popular as are sportives. Just for general riding I can see a get me home run flat would be a winner. I will be doing some investigating.

Thinking about it, yes, you have a point, particularly in the light of discussions upthread about superlight tubeless tyres that have no inbuilt puncture protection.  Still very niche, but then so are tubulars.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #177 on: April 12, 2021, 02:22:10 pm »
There are a large number of people that race that aren’t professionals. Triathlon is hugely popular as are sportives. Just for general riding I can see a get me home run flat would be a winner. I will be doing some investigating.

Thinking about it, yes, you have a point, particularly in the light of discussions upthread about superlight tubeless tyres that have no inbuilt puncture protection.  Still very niche, but then so are tubulars.
Well they seem to have sold out.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #178 on: April 12, 2021, 03:41:38 pm »
x1 Road is dead, because pro racing (Team Aqua) so I'm not sure where that leaves either of us. ;D

I can't remember when utility cycling was a thing, certainly not since the 70s and I suggest car ownership has largely killed it outside of a resurgence in a few cities.  Equally when you look at the market share of companies like Suntour, Microshift etc it is microscopic in relation to Shimano. So if you are thinking in terms of 40 years, then yes I agree.

In my time cycling (40 years) I'm struggling to think of a mainstream technology that didn't come via racing (clip less, pedals, STI, electronic gears) Ht2 and aheadset came from MTB.

I'm sure you are quite correct to talk about electric bikes as the future, and with environmental factors starting to bite these will only accelerate.

We're in danger of causing too much thread drift. 

To go back to airliners, what struck me was that it was iterative elaboration to try and fix a shortcoming of a previous elaboration - tubeless is less likely to fail in service but when it does it's harder to fix and the initial installation is more complex, more expensive and creates another incompatibility problem.  This manifests itself differently in the different genres of cycling but is another marketing opportunity for for those marketing the previous shortcomings.  To go back even further to the OP (TL or not?) it's an example of the people who sold you the original product selling you the fix to it.

There are many parallels with other markets.  Software is a classic.  So too is the car industry - manufacturers are desperate to go electric now 'cos the ICE has reached the peak of over elaboration and going back to an old technology (electric motors with better batteries) makes economic (as well as environmental) sense.  I'm not sure how this pans out in the bike business but Shimano and SRAM seem intent on doing the equivalent of refining ICE's ad infinitum.

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Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #179 on: April 12, 2021, 04:33:37 pm »

To go back to airliners, what struck me was that it was iterative elaboration to try and fix a shortcoming of a previous elaboration - tubeless is less likely to fail in service but when it does it's harder to fix and the initial installation is more complex, more expensive and creates another incompatibility problem.  This manifests itself differently in the different genres of cycling but is another marketing opportunity for for those marketing the previous shortcomings.  To go back even further to the OP (TL or not?) it's an example of the people who sold you the original product selling you the fix to it.

Initial installation (if you include valve and tape) is definitely more complex, subsequent tyre installation is marginally more complex, to an experienced pair of hands it is a 15 minute job all told...but by and large you only have to do it once, and not every time you puncture. Is it more expensive?  Marginally. You are saving £5 on an inner tube and using maybe £5 of sealant a year. Valves are pretty cheap. Where you don't save is actual tyres because limited demand dictates a narrow choice and most of them are premium products.

When tubeless sealant fails to fill a hole you plug it. It is much easier than dealing with a clincher puncture. Usually, if you are quick on your feet, you don't even lose full inflation. 

So, in answer to your post the problem that Airliner solves is only a problem for those that ride without plugs, a pump, or a spare inner tube. That isn't me, so I still can't really see a use for me. Maybe it'll mean I can dispense with that kit at some point but I'll need more convincing.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #180 on: April 12, 2021, 04:37:15 pm »
x1 Road is dead, because pro racing (Team Aqua) so I'm not sure where that leaves either of us. ;D

I can't remember when utility cycling was a thing, certainly not since the 70s and I suggest car ownership has largely killed it outside of a resurgence in a few cities.  Equally when you look at the market share of companies like Suntour, Microshift etc it is microscopic in relation to Shimano. So if you are thinking in terms of 40 years, then yes I agree.

In my time cycling (40 years) I'm struggling to think of a mainstream technology that didn't come via racing (clip less, pedals, STI, electronic gears) Ht2 and aheadset came from MTB.

I'm sure you are quite correct to talk about electric bikes as the future, and with environmental factors starting to bite these will only accelerate.

We're in danger of causing too much thread drift. 

To go back to airliners, what struck me was that it was iterative elaboration to try and fix a shortcoming of a previous elaboration - tubeless is less likely to fail in service but when it does it's harder to fix and the initial installation is more complex, more expensive and creates another incompatibility problem.  This manifests itself differently in the different genres of cycling but is another marketing opportunity for for those marketing the previous shortcomings.  To go back even further to the OP (TL or not?) it's an example of the people who sold you the original product selling you the fix to it.

There are many parallels with other markets.  Software is a classic.  So too is the car industry - manufacturers are desperate to go electric now 'cos the ICE has reached the peak of over elaboration and going back to an old technology (electric motors with better batteries) makes economic (as well as environmental) sense.  I'm not sure how this pans out in the bike business but Shimano and SRAM seem intent on doing the equivalent of refining ICE's ad infinitum.
I am seeing them differently. I see tubeless as a means of avoiding puncture repairs and they achieve this 95% of the time or more where a traditional set up would require removing the wheel and tyre. In that 5% it is a case of taking out the valve and topping up with fluid. This does not require taking wheel off but it takes a few minutes. Once every 15,000km (in my experience) you have to spend 20 minutes doing a traditional but slightly messier inner tube insertion.

Partly I see this a a convenience but partly as not loosing too much time in an event where it is important.

I see this new addition as reducing that 5% even further. You would then have the decision to make whether to spend a couple of minutes topping up and inflating or complete what you are doing more slowly.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #181 on: April 12, 2021, 05:48:04 pm »
I am seeing them differently........

I don't think we see it differently.  It's all about use cases. Depends what's important to you.

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Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #182 on: April 12, 2021, 09:15:58 pm »
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #183 on: April 13, 2021, 07:00:05 pm »
Out of interest, what are people's prefered widths and pressures for road tubeless?
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Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #184 on: April 13, 2021, 07:19:52 pm »
28mm at about 80psi is pretty nice and comfy

Zed43

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Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #185 on: April 13, 2021, 09:39:23 pm »
35mm with 3, maybe 3.5 bar (I'm 60kg)

sib

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #186 on: April 13, 2021, 10:03:55 pm »
28mm and 80psi here too.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #187 on: April 13, 2021, 10:37:16 pm »
Cheers. 28mm is convenient as that's about as wide as I can go without ditching the mudguards
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Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #188 on: April 14, 2021, 07:04:18 am »
25 at 80-85 rear and 75 front

28 at 70-75 rear and 65-70 front

30(32) at 50-60 rear and 45-55 front

I’m around 80kgs. Can go higher, but I don’t see the need. These are 10-15 psi lower than the last tuned tyres I ran. I’d be inclined to experiment a bit and see what works for you, but comfort helps speed by and large.

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Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #189 on: April 14, 2021, 07:11:54 am »
Mine get comfier as the week rolls on. Once, they got so comfy  that  a white go faster stripe appeared by the bead  ;D

(moral of the story is you do need to check pressure more often. I don't know if I imagine this but they feel harder  than tubed tyres when quite deflated)

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #190 on: April 14, 2021, 10:02:24 am »
I'm 65kg.

28mm at 70 psi  rear and 60 psi front.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #191 on: April 21, 2021, 08:37:24 am »
Tubeless titbits:

If you have seasonal tyres, what have you found to be the best course of action for removing the old sealant? Scrape it off while still moist or let it dry out?

I am in the process of mounting my summer MTB tyres and It looks like I had cleaned the carcass a bit but the beads were covered in crud. I tried to mount them, but no chance. The air just whistles out.
Anyway, I tried picking some off but it was very crumbly. So, I soaked the tyres in a bucket of water overnight, refilled it with hot water this morning and was able to pull quite long sections off at a time. There are a few bits left, but i'm hoping they will come off with some vigorous rubbing later when they have dried out again.

The moral of the story here, I think, is to get as much of the old sealant off when you remove the tyre. I have done that with the mud tyre I have just removed and it all came off like soft cheese. A fair bit easier than the process of removing the baked on crap.

I've had tubeless road tyres for a few years now, I like them. My maintenance schedule at 4 month intervals. 2x top ups followed by a full service them (remove all sealant) as the build up becomes substantial. For a new tyre, I think the first interval should be <2mths. I had an experience recently where a puncture failed to seal due to the tyre being almost dry inside, the initial 60ml seems to have all been used up in coating the tyre/rim bed leaving not enough loose. I did find a few thorns in it (when tubing it.....always the backup) so maybe I lost a bit with those punctures.

Anyway, to someone thinking about making the switch, this may all sound overwhelmingly complicated and adding in an unnecessary layer of faff into your cycling world.  But all in all, I think the annual faff time is roughly equivalent with tubes. The boon is that 99% of tubeless faff can be done at your convenience in your garage/garden and not at the side of the road. 

mcshroom

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Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #192 on: April 21, 2021, 09:52:09 am »
I like the idea of tubeless, particularly the puncture sealing. I am usually at the back end of an audax field and could do without losing the extra time to a puncture. Changing is a commitment to replacing a lot of stuff I already have though, so I want to get it right before jumping in. I'm slowly working up to going tubeless as I've upgraded my kit. I now have a pump with an air chamber, some tubeless gravel tyres, TLR wheels and even a conversion kit. A couple of things I've not sorted yet though are: -
  • What do you actually carry out on the road? Do I need something like a CO2 inflater or am I going to be ok with a mini pump normally?
  • Does anyone have any recommendations for 32mm road tyres for audax? (Preferably some that don't cost the earth? ;D)
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Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #193 on: April 21, 2021, 02:07:03 pm »
- I'm a bit belt & braces. I think of tubeless problems in stages:
Stage 1 - Small puncture that the sealant repairs.
This might leave you with a slightly soft tyre. Hence a pump is good to top it back up.
Stage 2 - Full deflation.
You will likely need to repair the tyre. I've used 'Stans Darts' & 'Dynaplugs' and have had more success with the latter. If you're unlucky, the tyre might become unseated from the bead. In which case a CO2 pump can provide enough grunt to pop it back on - however there is a risk of spoiling the remaining sealant via freezing. 
Stage 3 - Split sidewall/puncture that won't seal
Last resort - boot and tube. Just make sure you thoroughly inspect the carcass for thorns etc before inserting the tube. I found 4 last time. You can get some fancy tiny lightweight tubes (Tubulito), only needed to use it once in a few years.

- I have a 32mm pair of Specialized Roubaix Pro's. Originally bought them as a cheapish winter tyre. Left them on ever since. They are really quite good.

To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #194 on: April 21, 2021, 03:52:06 pm »
In which case a CO2 pump can provide enough grunt to pop it back on - however there is a risk of spoiling the remaining sealant via freezing. 
I don’t think this is the case. When you open the canister the co2 boils off leaving the remaining liquid co2 (and the canister containing it ) to drop rapidly in temperature. The gas that has gone into the tyre I would expect to be above ambient temperature (much like the back of my fridge)

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #195 on: April 21, 2021, 04:04:05 pm »
In which case a CO2 pump can provide enough grunt to pop it back on - however there is a risk of spoiling the remaining sealant via freezing. 
I don’t think this is the case. When you open the canister the co2 boils off leaving the remaining liquid co2 (and the canister containing it ) to drop rapidly in temperature. The gas that has gone into the tyre I would expect to be above ambient temperature (much like the back of my fridge)

Except a tyre inflated with CO2 is definitely colder to the touch than ambient, so I guess it's still some expansion going on in the tyre with consequent temperature drop.
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Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #196 on: April 21, 2021, 04:18:52 pm »
Saying 'freezing' was simplistic. I think it's more to do with the sudden drop in temperature.

This is what the Caffelatex people say: https://www.effettomariposa.eu/en/caffelatex-co2/

Re: the back of the fridge hypothesis - Whenever I have used a CO2 cartridge, the valve stem and lockring turn white with frost, indicating that the air going in is frigid.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #197 on: April 21, 2021, 05:38:53 pm »
I like the idea of tubeless, particularly the puncture sealing. I am usually at the back end of an audax field and could do without losing the extra time to a puncture. Changing is a commitment to replacing a lot of stuff I already have though, so I want to get it right before jumping in. I'm slowly working up to going tubeless as I've upgraded my kit. I now have a pump with an air chamber, some tubeless gravel tyres, TLR wheels and even a conversion kit. A couple of things I've not sorted yet though are: -
  • What do you actually carry out on the road? Do I need something like a CO2 inflater or am I going to be ok with a mini pump normally?
  • Does anyone have any recommendations for 32mm road tyres for audax? (Preferably some that don't cost the earth? ;D)

I’m currently using WTB Exposure 30mm on 20mm internal rims. They seem to come up between 30 and 32 wide. Ride nicely and, after a few overnight deflation’s, have settled down nicely. Easy to mount and inflate first time too.

A more expensive option might be Continental GP5000 in 32mm. I’ve not tried them, but I’ve got the 28s on another bike and they are nice and easy to ride. Quite right on the rim, but easy to inflate.

I only have a track pump. No fancy chamber.


I carry a phone locally and worms on a long ride. I don’t carry CO2. I might take a tube on a really long ride, but I’ve not done one for ages and ages.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #198 on: April 21, 2021, 06:01:00 pm »
I feel I am going to have to revise. It is a long time since my A levels.

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Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #199 on: April 21, 2021, 06:33:04 pm »
Good, because if you'd persisted we'd have asked for video footage of you releasing a co2 canister on a sensitive part of your anatomy to prove it doesnt freeze.