Author Topic: European Super League  (Read 2901 times)

Re: European Super League
« Reply #50 on: 19 April, 2021, 05:24:45 pm »
This is proper interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-qjx_8_DZ0
I know it's under The Anfield Wrap banner, but it's about the structure and not LFC specific (and it's not ranting about how evil the owners are).
They end by asking what happens next?
It's insane. Legitimately - does top 4 become meaningless this season? Is there now nothing riding on the Chelsea - West Ham game next week?

Just seen the "Swiss" system for the Champions league. 36 teams in group stage, giving 10 group games, a potential playoff, and then the rounds 16->final resulting in 17 games.
Europa League is 8 games in group, Europa Conference (yes, really!) is 6 group games, so I guess totals of 15 and 13 respectively.
They have also changed the rules, so if you finish in a qualifying place for the lesser UEFA competitions, but you have a high coefficient (ranking based on previous recent European performances) then you can get into the CL. And the league of the winner gets an extra place. So if Chelsea or City were to win it this year, and Liverpool were to finish 7th, there would be a chance that 6 English teams would be eligible (but not the team in 6th).

Oh, also, UEFA want to throw Real, City and Chelsea out of this year's Champions League competition. I guess that means congratulations are due to PSG for winning the final last week? I'm sure they will be happy to finally win the Champions League in the most glorious way they could have imagined.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: European Super League
« Reply #51 on: 19 April, 2021, 05:56:45 pm »
Sounds like Mourinho has taken a stand against the ESL. And got sacked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56799400

It's pretty clear from that piece this has been coming for a while and is entirely down to his failings as a manager. The idea that Mourinho would take a principled stand on anything is frankly laughable.

There was a widely shared tweet this morning that claimed it was down to him disagreeing with the owners over the ESL but it was quickly debunked as not being from a reliable source, and no credible news outlets have repeated the claim, afaics.

(The more believable suggestion I've heard is that Harry Kane signing a new contract was contingent on whether or not Mourinho continued as manager.)
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: European Super League
« Reply #52 on: 19 April, 2021, 06:14:38 pm »
Bayern Munich...turned it down to stay in the existing structures. Presumably because of 50+1.
Please explain.

Notice there are no German clubs involved. You cannot play in the Bundesliga if commercial investors have more than a 49 percent stake in your club. In other words, the majority vote on anything like this is down to the fans. And the fans say nein to this nonsense in Germany, just like they would everywhere else if they could....

Basically in Germany the fans have to hold 50% + 1 vote in the ownership structure of the club, therefore you would have to persuade the supporters association to back the idea for the club to join. Given the current fan reaction and DuncanM's accurate observation about fans being able to afford to travel to 9 european mid week away games, (flights, tickets, hotels, time off work etc.) then this might not be possible with the German clubs.

Which makes me wonder how the supporters of FC Barcelona and Real Madrid are taking it, as they’re also owned by the fans.  Especially the latter since club prez Florentino Perez is also slated to be the ESL's chairman.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
European Super League
« Reply #53 on: 19 April, 2021, 06:48:31 pm »
All fan created flags are going to be removed from Anfield:


They’re already creating new ones to replace them:

https://twitter.com/jaymckenna87/status/1384045369454043140?s=21
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: European Super League
« Reply #54 on: 19 April, 2021, 07:58:55 pm »
According to C4, Jürgen Klopp holds this idea to be a Bad Thing.  He continues to rise in my estimation.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: European Super League
« Reply #55 on: 19 April, 2021, 08:12:22 pm »
According to C4, Jürgen Klopp holds this idea to be a Bad Thing.  He continues to rise in my estimation.

Brilliantly, he has made it clear that he doesn’t support the super league idea while also making it clear that UEFA aren’t exactly the good guys here either.

He’s great.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: European Super League
« Reply #56 on: 19 April, 2021, 09:40:24 pm »
According to C4, Jürgen Klopp holds this idea to be a Bad Thing.  He continues to rise in my estimation.

And he's already 6' 4".

fd3

Re: European Super League
« Reply #57 on: 19 April, 2021, 10:36:55 pm »
I think the ESL clubs have really put a dumbass spin on this.  Yesterday it looked like they were proposing a European League to sit above the national leagues but as a distinct comp. 
Now it appears they just have different plans for the Champions' League.

Even if I did care about the 11-man sport I don't see that this is a significant issue that requires such nicker twisting.
Strange things are afoot at the circle K.

Re: European Super League
« Reply #58 on: 20 April, 2021, 06:46:48 am »
It’s just the football industry going the way it has for years. Shrugs shoulders and spreads hands in an attitude signifying complete indifference.
Sic transit and all that..

fd3

Re: European Super League
« Reply #59 on: 20 April, 2021, 09:21:14 am »
I don't think that the German teams and PSG sticking to the CL model has anything to do with 51% fan ownership.  I think it's down to their league system and how the clubs operate.  Basically, Bayern and PSG would be mid-tier at best in the ESL - it's better for them to play a more cup orientated comp where they have a better chance of winning.  The Spanish clubs, with 51% fan ownership, have signed up - this makes sense for them because they could compete in the ESL and if anything it gives their clubs something more competitive than La Ligua.

1. It's anti-meritocratic, and it makes much of the season meaningless. If it was already in place, then pretty much every team from 3rd to 14th would have nothing riding on their remaining 6 or 7 games. Having consequences to winning/losing is part of what makes a match important.
2. It is turning it's back on the European Cup/Champions League heritage. No matter whether you are Real chasing #14, Liverpool chasing #7, or City chasing #1, the European cup and it's successor tournament have come to define the top of European football. To tell fans that the chase is over, that there is some new tournament with a new name and a new trophy, and they will never see their team lift the European Cup (they kept the same cup - it's part of the charm) is a big deal.
3. It's explicitly aimed at keeping the wealthy clubs at the top of the game forever, which makes it more about money than about competition on the field.
4. It stokes the divisions within the local/international fanbase - who can afford to travel to 9 away games in europe?
5. With 6 English teams, that means you'd get to play 2 other English teams at least 4 times a season - that gets boring (see Liverpool Chelsea 2005-9).
All fair points.  I do think that fans are currently knee-jerk reacting to how this was initially perceived as a league above the the PL/La Ligua/etc - once the details actually have time to sink in I think that they will be less worried.
1 - This is already 60-90% there.  Mid-tier teams play for a bit of extra cash to splash the next year and top teams play for European football money.  While there is a short amount of joy at seeing a mid tier team make it to the CL, it's short lived as they will crash out early - better keep the big boy's comp for the big boys who can actually play the game at that level.
I wouldn't call the 11-man game meritocratic, it's all down to purchasing power.
2 - Okay, but heritage would suggest no PL, can you still see fans wearing hair shirts over that?
3 - As opposed to how the 11-man game is structured at the moment (e.g. in English football the only way to compete is to either already start in the top-6 or to be bought up by some foreign oligarch)?  If you are a fan of one of the top clubs you'll quickly come round to the idea of not needing to compete for the place your team deserves.  If you are a fan of a team that might get into the European league, just to then crash out early, you'll probably be happy to get money in lieu and save your players for the domestic league matches.  If you are 99% out of the running then some cash to shut you up would be welcome.
4 - Who can afford to go to two away European matches?  Once you accept that getting to more than 1 away European match will be unlikely for most people then whether there's 4 or 20 away matches it makes no difference.
5 - Tee Hee, did you see what you did there?  You suggested that it might be boring...

This doesn't change the very valid points you/fans are making, I'm just suggesting that once this gets time to calm down and people have a chance to think about it fans will rethink or modify their position.
Strange things are afoot at the circle K.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: European Super League
« Reply #60 on: 20 April, 2021, 09:34:54 am »
I don't think that the German teams and PSG sticking to the CL model has anything to do with 51% fan ownership.  I think it's down to their league system and how the clubs operate.  Basically, Bayern and PSG would be mid-tier at best in the ESL - it's better for them to play a more cup orientated comp where they have a better chance of winning.  The Spanish clubs, with 51% fan ownership, have signed up - this makes sense for them because they could compete in the ESL and if anything it gives their clubs something more competitive than La Ligua.
Which makes it all the odder that Spurs have signed up.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: European Super League
« Reply #61 on: 20 April, 2021, 09:39:49 am »
Basically, Bayern and PSG would be mid-tier at best in the ESL

Nah. If that were the reason, Spurs wouldn't be interested either. [ETA: crossposted with Cudzo. Great minds... Ha!]

For PSG, it's quite simply because they're owned by Qatar who have a vested interest in supporting Fifa, having paid them a fortune in backhanders to be awarded the World Cup.

Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund couldn't make such a decision without a fan vote, which they know they would lose, so they're not even trying.

Quote
I'm just suggesting that once this gets time to calm down and people have a chance to think about it fans will rethink or modify their position.

It's a moot point, since the ESL in the format announced the other day simply won't happen. There will be some brinkmanship but they'll come to a compromise sooner or later.

Whatever happens, the one thing you can be sure of is that the outcome won't be good for the fans.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: European Super League
« Reply #62 on: 20 April, 2021, 09:50:01 am »
PSG aren't 50+1. PSG didn't sign up because their owners have invested billions in the UEFA Champions League and the World Cup.
Also, Barca and Real aren't 50+1 - they are entirely fan owned. But they are also utterly broke (Barca are 1 Billion Euro in debt!) and can't carry on as they are.
Given Bayern and PSG made the final of the Champions League last year, to suggest they would be mid-table is absurd. Look at the euro club index - Bayern second, PSG fifth: https://www.euroclubindex.com/
(NB AC Milan are 23rd!)

I don't think the "legacy fans" are going to calm down. Whether they can do anything about it while they aren't allowed to demonstrate of go to the ground is another matter entirely. the feeling of being dumped on by the higher ups is very strong, and groups within a club fanbase (eg Spirit of Shankly) can organise very effectively, but I don't know if they can co-ordinate across fanbases.

Also, I think that describing Arsenal and Spurs as the big teams is absurd and demonstrates why locking teams in as overlords is a bad idea. Nottingham Forrest have more Big Cups than Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham, City, and Atletico combined.

Another thing that makes this such a big deal is that these clubs are busy burning their bridges. Leaving the European Clubs Association might not be such a big deal, but quitting important roles (various chairmanships) with UEFA is huge.

Wowbagger

  • Sylph
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: European Super League
« Reply #63 on: 20 April, 2021, 10:47:27 am »
I can't understand why the government is against this. Huge wealth and power lording it to the detriment of everyone else is exactly what they encourage in all other forms of business. It couldn't be to do with a passing bandwagon and the need to stay ahead in the polls, could it? Surely they wouldn't be so shallow.
Bach without a doubt.

Re: European Super League
« Reply #64 on: 20 April, 2021, 10:49:02 am »
I can't understand why the government is against this. Huge wealth and power lording it to the detriment of everyone else is exactly what they encourage in all other forms of business. it couldn't be to do with a passing bandwagon and the need to stay ahead in the polls, could it? Surely they wouldn't be so shallow.
They must have forgotten to make a suitable donation to the Tory party.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: European Super League
« Reply #65 on: 20 April, 2021, 10:50:13 am »
I can't understand why the government is against this. Huge wealth and power lording it to the detriment of everyone else is exactly what they encourage in all other forms of business. it couldn't be to do with a passing bandwagon and the need to stay ahead in the polls, could it? Surely they wouldn't be so shallow.

So much cynicism... I'm disappointed you find it so hard to believe that our beloved PM would be acting through anything other than pure altruism.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

John Stonebridge

  • Has never ridden Ower the Edge
Re: European Super League
« Reply #66 on: 20 April, 2021, 11:01:37 am »
Im not buying the view that the removal of the 6 English clubs in the Dirty Dozen from the Premier League would represent the end of the world.

Football clubs have generally used the additional money from recent TV contracts to pay players more, so any reduction in TV revenue from losing these 6 teams would flow through to lower wages.  Boo fucking hoo.  The TV companies have schedules to fill and will get busy selling Leicester v Everton if they have to.   

Four out the top 6 in the Championship have recently been in the top flight so its not like a bunch of no hopers would be parachuted in - and in any event they might take the opportunity to restructure the top league to have fewer than 20 clubs. 

While doing everything they can to avoid it, the Premier League ultimately need to be prepared to expel these 6 teams, though it appears that UEFA are preparing to get in there first vis a vis this seasons Champions League. 

Still think its brinkmanship mind.   

   


Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: European Super League
« Reply #67 on: 20 April, 2021, 11:15:13 am »
Also, I think that describing Arsenal and Spurs as the big teams is absurd and demonstrates why locking teams in as overlords is a bad idea. Nottingham Forrest have more Big Cups than Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham, City, and Atletico combined.
I think it's as much or more to with their bossing the relevant leagues over the last couple of decades than European victories. At least, that explains Arsenal. For Tottenham I guess it's just because they are one of the richest clubs. (Which itself poses a question: they haven't got money from wining cups and leagues and they don't have a global fanbase like the others – though I wonder if City do too – so it must come from their local fans, the very people they're alienating with this move*. Or maybe just from astute investments?)

*Though if that alienation comes, supposedly, from renouncing the chance of Champions League performances, that doesn't really stack up for Spurs either.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: European Super League
« Reply #68 on: 20 April, 2021, 11:23:06 am »
Checking for fucks to give.


No, none left.

Re: European Super League
« Reply #69 on: 20 April, 2021, 12:29:51 pm »
Im not buying the view that the removal of the 6 English clubs in the Dirty Dozen from the Premier League would represent the end of the world.

Football clubs have generally used the additional money from recent TV contracts to pay players more, so any reduction in TV revenue from losing these 6 teams would flow through to lower wages.  Boo fucking hoo.  The TV companies have schedules to fill and will get busy selling Leicester v Everton if they have to.   

Four out the top 6 in the Championship have recently been in the top flight so its not like a bunch of no hopers would be parachuted in - and in any event they might take the opportunity to restructure the top league to have fewer than 20 clubs. 

While doing everything they can to avoid it, the Premier League ultimately need to be prepared to expel these 6 teams, though it appears that UEFA are preparing to get in there first vis a vis this seasons Champions League. 

Still think its brinkmanship mind.   
The giant driver behind premier league revenues is overseas TV. TV companies struggled during the pandemic, and the French league lost their TV deal when the company that bid massive money for it went into administration. If the Premier League were to expel the 6 biggest clubs, then the overseas TV companies would have all the grounds they need to pull their cash, especially if there is a new competition they would rather show instead. As a neutral, do you watch West Ham vs Leicester, or Barca vs City? Player salaries are guaranteed, you can't just cut player wages. Most premier league clubs last year ran at a significant loss despite over £100m each from TV - if you cut that then everyone will be struggling to stay afloat. Likewise, the "solidarity payment" from the Premier League is what keeps lower league clubs afloat (though they have fewer long term contracts, so might escape out from under the wage bill).

I hope it's brinkmanship because expelling the biggest clubs in your competition is a bad thing for everyone, but the way they all left the various associations scares me that it's not.

Re: European Super League
« Reply #70 on: 20 April, 2021, 01:42:00 pm »
you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs

John Stonebridge

  • Has never ridden Ower the Edge
Re: European Super League
« Reply #71 on: 20 April, 2021, 01:47:49 pm »
Im not buying the view that the removal of the 6 English clubs in the Dirty Dozen from the Premier League would represent the end of the world.

Football clubs have generally used the additional money from recent TV contracts to pay players more, so any reduction in TV revenue from losing these 6 teams would flow through to lower wages.  Boo fucking hoo.  The TV companies have schedules to fill and will get busy selling Leicester v Everton if they have to.   

Four out the top 6 in the Championship have recently been in the top flight so its not like a bunch of no hopers would be parachuted in - and in any event they might take the opportunity to restructure the top league to have fewer than 20 clubs. 

While doing everything they can to avoid it, the Premier League ultimately need to be prepared to expel these 6 teams, though it appears that UEFA are preparing to get in there first vis a vis this seasons Champions League. 

Still think its brinkmanship mind.   
The giant driver behind premier league revenues is overseas TV.

Overseas TV revenue isn't even the majority of the EPLs TV revenue https://media.sportbusiness.com/news/premier-league-rights-value-up-8-to-9-2bn-on-overseas-income/

I wasnt suggesting that football clubs cut players wages.  Football clubs like other business will be able to manage employment costs by cutting their cloth to fit by (i) having fewer employees and (ii) amending the terms of contracts as and when they come up for review which tends to happen on a staggered basis.  They might also be able to dust down their top earners contracts to see if they contain "force majeur" clause or similar that they might invoke. 

The remaining 14 clubs would want none of this voluntarily, but its survivable for them.       


 

Re: European Super League
« Reply #72 on: 20 April, 2021, 02:17:00 pm »
...
I wasnt suggesting that football clubs cut players wages.  Football clubs like other business will be able to manage employment costs by cutting their cloth to fit by (i) having fewer employees ....       


 

i'm not sure playing with 7 players will be a successful strategy, and any reduction beyond that would mean no games played :demon: :demon:

Re: European Super League
« Reply #73 on: 20 April, 2021, 02:52:30 pm »
Im not buying the view that the removal of the 6 English clubs in the Dirty Dozen from the Premier League would represent the end of the world.

Football clubs have generally used the additional money from recent TV contracts to pay players more, so any reduction in TV revenue from losing these 6 teams would flow through to lower wages.  Boo fucking hoo.  The TV companies have schedules to fill and will get busy selling Leicester v Everton if they have to.   

Four out the top 6 in the Championship have recently been in the top flight so its not like a bunch of no hopers would be parachuted in - and in any event they might take the opportunity to restructure the top league to have fewer than 20 clubs. 

While doing everything they can to avoid it, the Premier League ultimately need to be prepared to expel these 6 teams, though it appears that UEFA are preparing to get in there first vis a vis this seasons Champions League. 

Still think its brinkmanship mind.   
The giant driver behind premier league revenues is overseas TV.

Overseas TV revenue isn't even the majority of the EPLs TV revenue https://media.sportbusiness.com/news/premier-league-rights-value-up-8-to-9-2bn-on-overseas-income/

I wasnt suggesting that football clubs cut players wages.  Football clubs like other business will be able to manage employment costs by cutting their cloth to fit by (i) having fewer employees and (ii) amending the terms of contracts as and when they come up for review which tends to happen on a staggered basis.  They might also be able to dust down their top earners contracts to see if they contain "force majeur" clause or similar that they might invoke. 

The remaining 14 clubs would want none of this voluntarily, but its survivable for them.       

Overseas TV is the growth market, and the only bit that went up last time. The numbers from that article are all pre-pandemic numbers, which is relevant because BT and Sky negotiated a significant discount on future payments when games were stopped last March. If the 6 most screened clubs suddenly disappeared, I think they would be similarly unhappy.
Here's the TV revenue as a percentage of turnover, from that same season: https://www.footballcritic.com/news/which-premier-league-clubs-are-most-reliant-on-tv-revenuec/893 Anyone in the top half is going to struggle if TV revenue goes down significantly (and that's before you take into account the lack of fans coming through the turnstiles taking away even more revenue this year).

John Stonebridge

  • Has never ridden Ower the Edge
Re: European Super League
« Reply #74 on: 20 April, 2021, 02:56:25 pm »
...
I wasnt suggesting that football clubs cut players wages.  Football clubs like other business will be able to manage employment costs by cutting their cloth to fit by (i) having fewer employees ....       


 

i'm not sure playing with 7 players will be a successful strategy, and any reduction beyond that would mean no games played :demon: :demon:

Clubs have enormous 1st team squads. 

Here selected at random are three of the teams destined to be in the new "My-Nan-could-score-in-that-Farmers League" 

Everton : 33 https://www.premierleague.com/clubs/7/Everton/squad

Newcastle : 30 https://www.premierleague.com/clubs/23/Newcastle-United/squad

Southampton : 30 https://www.premierleague.com/clubs/20/Southampton/squad 

Looks like theres a bit of slack.   

Clubs also have non playing staff