Author Topic: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00  (Read 1475 times)

Philip Benstead

  • Cycling4ALL - say No Bike No Life
CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« on: 24 April, 2021, 07:46:49 am »
CTC AGM 2021
Motions x 2
Please note on both of my motions there is NO time deadline, so I am just giving a push to CTC to encourage 0its groups and itself to reconfigure its activities over a long-time frame to be environmentally benign.
I not suggesting we are going to exclude anybody, down to moral pressure.
Not all cyclists are Hard riders and can or have the time to ride long-distance or can stay away for many days. 
I have no desired to encourage CTC members to leave our organisation for pastures new.  I also do not think being concern about the environment is a freak show.
I am surprised by personal attacks, but they do make me laugh.
I am also surprised that the former trustee cannot see how poorly worked last year’s motion on flying was
I have adjusted the motion slightly to make it more acceptable.
Also note the second motion regarding cycle carriage on trains.

COMMENTS WELCOMED
I am seeking a seconder for these motions


AGM 2021

Motions X 2
USE OF LOW PA0SSENAGER CAPACITY MOTOR VEHICLES
ORDINARY RESOLUTIONS
That CTC shall work toward a practical and realistic reduction and eventual cessation of activities under its control of the provision, promotion, and marketing of cycle rides, cycling holiday/tours and activities involving the use of low passenger capacity motor vehicles to access the activity with due regard to disability access issues.
Proposer’s note: The CTC
One of CTC objectives relates especially to the ‘promote the conservation and protection of the environment. That is negated if the use of a motor vehicle is encouraged by increasing a person’s annual carbon footprint and hence contributes to climate change.
Many events and cycle rides at the local level start at locations it impossible to get to unless a motor vehicle is used.
The member survey indicated 71% support for ‘Encouraging cycle use to benefit the environment.
We propose that a progressive strategy reduce, and ultimately stop, the promotion of cycling activities that involve the use of motor vehicles.
The current promotion is in the form of cycle rides, sportive, Audax’s, articles, and advertisements its publication involving the use of motor vehicles.

WORD COUNT 178




AGM 2021

CYCLE CARRIAGE ON TRAINS
ORDINARY RESOLUTIONS
That CTC shall:
•   review Its cycle carriage on trains policy
•   review Its cycle carriage on trains campaign activities to increase capacity in the UK
•   work with others including the European Cycling Federation to increase capacity in the UK the rest of Europe. 
Proposer’s note: The CTC
Many events and cycle rid0es at local, national, or internal level start at locations it impossible to get to unless an air flights and motor vehicle is used to gain access to the start location.
One of CTC objectives relates especially to the ‘promote the conservation and protection of the environment. That is negated if the use of air flights and motor vehicles are encouraged by lack of capacity for cycle carriage on trains.
A person’s annual carbon footprint and hence contributes to climate change could be reduced if travel over a long distance was undertaken by trains instead of air flights or low passenger capacity motor vehicles.

WORD COUNT 154
Philip Benstead B.Env.Sc. (Hons.), NSI

Independent Cycle Campaigner and Cycle Consultant
DfT accredited BikeAbility Instructor / L3 Mechanic
07949801698 cycling4westminster@gmail.com

Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #1 on: 24 April, 2021, 09:09:36 am »
We propose that a progressive strategy to reduce, and ultimately stop, promotion of cycling activities that involve the use of motor vehicles.
Note an error in the wording "promotion of cycling activities that involve the use of motor vehicles", the event does not involve the use of motor vehicles, it is the choice of the participant.   Wording should be "that may involve" which pretty much scuppers any national event.  Not everybody can cycle to events or use public transport to reach the AGM or Birthday rides or other events.  I thought Cuk was supposed to be "inclusive".



Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #2 on: 24 April, 2021, 12:24:15 pm »
We propose that a progressive strategy to reduce, and ultimately stop, promotion of cycling activities that involve the use of motor vehicles.
Note an error in the wording "promotion of cycling activities that involve the use of motor vehicles", the event does not involve the use of motor vehicles, it is the choice of the participant.   Wording should be "that may involve" which pretty much scuppers any national event.  Not everybody can cycle to events or use public transport to reach the AGM or Birthday rides or other events.  I thought Cuk was supposed to be "inclusive".

It could seriously impact the organisation of events that require logistical support across several distant locations. Imagine trying to organise an efficient bag-drop for example (or feeding support) on a long distance event without a utility vehicle (or several) which is by definition a low capacity motor vehicle.

I have no right to talk, not being in the CTC, but I do find all of this arguement very negative. The arguement is to stop activities, rather than a vision for a future that developes new ideas and activities. Something is missing somewhere!

Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #3 on: 24 April, 2021, 02:30:52 pm »
There's a good argument that the CTC shouldn't encourage events that are only practical to get to by car, especially when it's something a small change to meeting point or start time could fix.

OTOH the CTC exists in a country where nice places to cycle are hard to access by safe bike routes; where many places don't have serviceable public transport; where bikes on public transport is awkward or not allowed and of limited capacity where it is, etc. The most likely result of not wanting people to drive to events is many not cycling at all.

(also apparently it's still the CTC?)

Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #4 on: 24 April, 2021, 03:43:55 pm »
It will also involve the loss of a great deal of advertising revenue for “supported” tours. I assume the “low capacity” caveat is to let EBE off the hook.

I think I’ll be dropping my long standing CTC membership and switching to BC for the insurance cover.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #5 on: 24 April, 2021, 04:00:59 pm »
Loosely related, a couple of years ago the BHPC introduced a racing class for people who get to events "without the use of a private motor vehicle".  This wording was intended to allow for multi-modal trips involving trains, buses, ferries, etc. and seems a better fit than 'low capacity' in that context (not least because people do occasionally use an under-occupied minibus to transport HPVs).

I should note that this is as much about recognition and encouragement of the racing compromises inherent in using an HPV to get to an event (road legality, luggage capacity, rider fatigue, gearing, tyres, etc) as it is an environmental measure or who-cycled-the-furthest-to-the-event competition.

I think if you're going to say 'low-capacity' you need to define it for the quibblers.  A number of seats or driving licence class or something.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

robgul

  • Cycle:End-to-End webmaster
  • cyclist, Cytech accredited mechanic & woodworker
    • Cycle:End-to-End
Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #6 on: 24 April, 2021, 04:50:09 pm »
It will also involve the loss of a great deal of advertising revenue for “supported” tours. I assume the “low capacity” caveat is to let EBE off the hook.

I think I’ll be dropping my long standing CTC membership and switching to BC for the insurance cover.

My CTC mmbership of many years went about 5 years ago - now just use BC for the insurance required by the two clubs I belong to.

One has to wonder at CTC's grasp on reality with the motor vehicle and flying suggestions . . .
Cycle:End-to-End     Resources and inspiration for the great adventure!
HoE Cycling Club

Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #7 on: 24 April, 2021, 09:01:40 pm »
Have people misunderstood what's going on here? It's a proposal for a motion, from a member, which would first need to be accepted, then voted on at an AGM which the charity is no longer obliged to hold, where it would be very unlikely to pass without the Board of Trustee's approval, and in the event of it passing wouldn't be binding on them.
You can argue that it's no longer a members organisation, or argue that you don't like proposals put forward by members, but it's hard to see how anyone can argue both at the same time.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #8 on: 24 April, 2021, 09:09:37 pm »
Loosely related, a couple of years ago the BHPC introduced a racing class for people who get to events "without the use of a private motor vehicle".  This wording was intended to allow for multi-modal trips involving trains, buses, ferries, etc. and seems a better fit than 'low capacity' in that context (not least because people do occasionally use an under-occupied minibus to transport HPVs).

I should note that this is as much about recognition and encouragement of the racing compromises inherent in using an HPV to get to an event (road legality, luggage capacity, rider fatigue, gearing, tyres, etc) as it is an environmental measure or who-cycled-the-furthest-to-the-event competition.

I think if you're going to say 'low-capacity' you need to define it for the quibblers.  A number of seats or driving licence class or something.

"It's ok, I drove here in my 12 seat people carrier"
"How many of you were in it?"
"Me"

Their wording is awful.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #9 on: 24 April, 2021, 09:51:20 pm »
It is perfectly correct for a members organisation to allow members to propose changes to the rules. It would not be correct for them to censor badly written proposals.

Specifically this proposal, attempting to limit the use of privately owned (particularly non electric) cars, seems a sensible step.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #10 on: 25 April, 2021, 12:45:35 pm »
As has already been said, it's another Philip Benstead proposal, nothing more, and as such it's doubtful (on past record) the OP will come back to answer any questions.

It does seem to me that it's a noble idea overall and things the CTC organises itself directly, like the Birthday Rides and the Triennial wotsits, would be a good place to start. That would make a positive impact in making events accessible, whereas refusing advertising would simply deprive the magazine of revenue.

Chris Juden has pointed out elsewhere with regard to turning down advertising for holidays involving flying that CUK haven't done anything practical to make it easier to put bikes on trains, either nationally or by supporting the ECF's related campaign.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

road-runner

  • Currently in Slovakia
Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #11 on: 25 April, 2021, 05:14:57 pm »
As has already been said, it's another Philip Benstead proposal ...

Are you sure it is Philip's proposal? Paul didn't say it was Philip's, just that it is a member's proposal.

It's a proposal for a motion, from a member ...

Philip is the messenger, as he often is. It is not clear whose proposal it is.

Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #12 on: 25 April, 2021, 05:25:23 pm »
The OP posted exactly the same words in a post on the CUK site.

He was asked, "Is this a serious proposal for the AGM or a sarcastic jibe at what happened with air travel?"

He answered, "If I can get seconder I will put it forward."

road-runner

  • Currently in Slovakia
Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #13 on: 25 April, 2021, 06:14:59 pm »
Thanks for the clarification, Neil.

I rarely sit and watch other people cycling but today a lazy afternoon disappeared watching the Liege-Bastogne-Liege race, where the 7 riders in the breakaway group out front had 8 cars and 5 motorcycles with them, according to my count. The peleton had a number I didn't count plus a helicopter. I know it wasn't a CTC or CUK supported race but it was a group cycle ride nonetheless; it would be a challenge to rid rides of motorised support.

Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #14 on: 26 April, 2021, 03:32:51 pm »

...
That CTC shall work toward a reduction and eventual cessation of activities under its control of the provision, promotion and marketing of cycle rides, cycle holiday/tours and activities involving the use of low-capacity motor vehicles.
...


I don't understand the wording of the whole post as the English in use is either Lawyer speak or an interpretation from another language.

However, since I find it much easier to put my bicycle in my 2 litre diesel car than the 1.1 litre petrol car I think I support the proposal to cessate the use of low capacity motor vehicles.

Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #15 on: 27 April, 2021, 10:54:16 am »
It seems likely that all cycling uk bike rides start at locations which are accessible by bike.

What am I missing?

As to the notes on train travel,  this would stop all events for more than 10 people due to train capacity issues,  and consequently all events as they become unviable at low numbers

Eddington  100miles

road-runner

  • Currently in Slovakia
Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #16 on: 27 April, 2021, 11:04:58 am »
It seems likely that all cycling uk bike rides start at locations which are accessible by bike.

What am I missing?

I have had riders from afar drive to my place and stay overnight so that they are nearenough for an early start to the next day's ride. I guess the proposal is to encourage those people to choose rides closer to home, at least close enough that they can ride to and from the start.

Another example: Wowbagger often puts his bike in his car and goes somewhere interesting for a bike ride. is the proposal suggesting Wow should not drive his bike but instead only go to destinations by bike or by train?

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #17 on: 27 April, 2021, 11:08:48 pm »
Dear fucking Lord!

That's at least 4 times. Look at a spellchecker for gods sake.
Reasonably Inconsiderate

C-3PO

  • Human-cyborg relations
Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #18 on: 28 April, 2021, 02:20:24 am »
My metallic mammaries mistrust multiple mailings.
Muted.

Philip Benstead

  • Cycling4ALL - say No Bike No Life
Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #19 on: 28 April, 2021, 07:22:06 am »
CTC AGM 2021 MOTIONS

I am seeking support for these motions, can you help?

COMMENTS WELCOMED

DATE CORRECTED 28/04/2021 07:01:39

Motions x 3

All these motions have been redrafted to reflect comments I have received from various sources.
If you see any typographical errors, please point them out to me.
Please note my motions there is NO time deadline, so I am just giving a push to CTC to encourage its groups and itself to reconfigure its activities over a long-time frame to be environmentally benign.

I not suggesting we are going to exclude anybody, it just down to moral pressure.

Not all cyclists are Hard riders and can or have the time to ride long-distance or can stay away for many days.

I have no desired to encourage CTC members to leave our organisation for pastures anew.

I also do not think being concern about the environment is a freak show.

I am surprised by personal attacks, but they do make me laugh.

I am also surprised that the former trustee cannot see how poorly worked last year’s motion on flying was



AGM 2021

REDUCTION IN THE USE OF LOW PASSENAGER CAPACITY IN MOTOR VEHICLES

ORDINARY RESOLUTIONS

That CTC shall:
work toward a practical and realistic solution to achieve a reduction in the use of low passenger capacity in motor vehicles by encouraging shared use and the use of public transport to gain access to event venues.

To this end encourage the use of locations, promotion, and marketing of cycle rides, cycling holiday/tours and activities that encourage the use of public transport where available and if not share the use of motor vehicles.

Proposer’s note: The CTC
One of CTC objectives relates especially to the ‘promote the conservation and protection of the environment. That is negated if the motor vehicle is a single occupation.  This increases a person’s annual carbon footprint and hence contributes to climate change.

Many events and cycle ride at the local level start at locations it impossible to get to unless a motor vehicle is used this practice should be reviewed.

The member survey indicated 71% support for ‘Encouraging cycle use to benefit the environment.

We propose that a progressive strategy reduce the promotion of cycling activities that involve only the use of motor vehicles.

WORD COUNT 158

CYCLE CARRIAGE ON TRAINS

ORDINARY RESOLUTIONS

That CTC shall:

• review Its cycle carriage on trains policy

• review Its engagement with Local Transport Groups Train Service Providers and National Rail etc

• In addition, the national office encourages local groups to engage directly with community rail partnerships to lobby for better cycle facilities both on trains (including removal of seats to create multi-use flexible space carriages as recently seen in Scotland) and at stations.

Engage in partnership with the European Cycling Federation to increase capacity in the UK the rest of Europe.

Proposer’s note: The CTC

We recognise that we need to communicate effectively with influential stakeholder to gain support to reverse the underfunding and the lack of provision since privatization.

Many events and cycle rid0es at local, national, or internal level start at locations it impossible to get to unless air flight and motor vehicle are used to gain access to the start location.

The use of flexible space on trains is a quick, cheap, and easy way to increase capacity that has been recently taken up by Scot Rail
https://www.google.com/search?q=SCOTRAIL+CYCLE+CARRIAGE&newwindow=1&sxsrf=ALeKk036LLrnEDSnYNJQIyATSk4jetn16g:1619588656915&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiEg8_0naDwAhVNiFwKHVuqDjQQ_AUoA3oECAEQBQ&biw=1210&bih=542

WORD COUNT 154
HIGHWAY AGENCY

ORDINARY RESOLUTIONS

That CTC shall:
• seek funding for an officer to engage exclusively with the Highway Agency and similar bodies.

• review its policy on existing major road infrastructure etc and barriers it creates for cycling.

• seek to reduce the effects of existing barriers and seek to prevent the creation of new ones

Proposer’s note: The CTC

With every prospect of a major infrastructure scheme that creates a physical barrier to cycling particularly affecting the new cyclist, we need influence planning at an early stage and is very time consuming and mean that it does not get the attention it desired by our hard-working staff.

WORD COUNT 99
Philip Benstead B.Env.Sc. (Hons.), NSI

Independent Cycle Campaigner and Cycle Consultant
DfT accredited BikeAbility Instructor / L3 Mechanic
07949801698 cycling4westminster@gmail.com

Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #20 on: 28 April, 2021, 08:14:58 am »
How does CTC propose to overturn the trend to worse and worse cycle provision on new trains, specifically the Class 800?  The inadequate hanging spaces (you can't actually fit two unladen touring bikes side by side in the "2 bike" compartment, let alone two MTBs with straight bars) are the problem, coupled with inadequate luggage provision elsewhere, which means suitcases are dumped into the bike spaces whether booked or not.

I have just about given up on one-way rides now, since I end up standing all the way and blocking the vestibule.  A Brompton goes onto a train fine, but then you have to ride a Brompton 60 miles.

The design is now baked in and would cost hundreds of thousands to rip out and to reconfigure.  The only long-term solution is for bikes to be carried for a charge, which (a) establishes some kind of contract/expectation to accommodate the bike and (b) funds retrospective improvements to the bike spaces.  With reduced passenger numbers, possibly permanently, there is scope to do this post-Covid.

As usual, CTC will bleat about entitlement and will be ignored because there is no benefit to train companies in carrying bikes.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #21 on: 28 April, 2021, 09:31:29 am »
Quite so Roger.  I was happy to pay for my bicycle knowing that I had a proper parcel van/drive car storage area to secure it but free bikes has simply encouraged the TOC's to not bother with bikes as space is money.  Just as well that I don't need it any more.

Ah, those were the days...

Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #22 on: 28 April, 2021, 09:47:56 am »
Everything train companies do is specced by the government, and since Covid it’s directly micromanaged.

If trains were run on a commercial basis there wouldn’t be any trains.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #23 on: 28 April, 2021, 10:12:21 am »
The design is now baked in and would cost hundreds of thousands to rip out and to reconfigure.

The design was baked in before they tested a mock-up with actual cyclists.  They were so out of touch that they thought we'd be impressed.

And structural bits of train mean there's no scope for changing the shape of the vestibule, just slotting in and out toilet / dangly bike space / catering modules.  The only way to meaningfully improve the cycle provision would be to remove seats.

I'm not sure what the CTC (or other organisations) can realistically hope to achieve in this field, but I'd like to see a lot more noise about it.  It's basically impossible for a family or other group to travel with bikes by train, not to mention all the usual problems faced by anyone who's not tall, strong and happens to be riding the right sort of lightly-loaded bike.  I suspect the "we need cycle provision that's suitable for e-bikes" angle may be a good one, not least because the overwhelming majority of such are too heavy to reasonably lift, and have normal (or wide MTB) handlebars.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: CTC AGM 2021 low-capacity motor vehicles. 00
« Reply #24 on: 28 April, 2021, 10:26:32 am »
I wonder if the response to demand for e-bike carriage might be "But lithium batteries!" Almost all cycle-camping trips using trains are technically illegal because the regulations of carriage prohibit gas cannisters (I'm not sure about liquid or solid fuels but that seems likely too).
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.