Author Topic: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query  (Read 728 times)

80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« on: April 24, 2021, 08:55:04 pm »
Have got a couple of (I think) early 90’s wheels, but the bearings on them are knackered, and trying to work out how to get to them!

First is a front Zipp with a Hope hub. Can’t see any flats or anything to unscrew:



Second is a Mavic 3G rear. Has a screw on Sachs 8spd block, but not sure on what tool I need to get this off?



I’m guessing judging by the other side that they’ll be similar once it’s off, and I can use a pin spanner thing to unscrew the bit with all the little holes to get to the bearings?



Just a little bit before my time, which is something I get to say increasingly less nowadays...

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2021, 09:54:46 pm »
https://www.hopetech.com/product-documents/hubs/ Might help.

Sachs freewheels use Shimano freewheel removers.

The shop tool for Mavic hub bearings engages all six holes at the same time with a steel tool fixed in a vice. There are plastic Mavic pin tools that engage five holes but it stripped the only time I tried to use one.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2021, 07:03:01 am »
On some freewheels, you need to unscrew the top one or two sprockets (you need two chainwhips) to get to thecremoval splines.  Could they be hidden?
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

rr

Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2021, 11:42:34 am »
On some freewheels, you need to unscrew the top one or two sprockets (you need two chainwhips) to get to thecremoval splines.  Could they be hidden?
Given that 13 teeth was the minimum for ages and this has 12 you may well be right.

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LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2021, 11:49:31 am »
No. You can see the ring with the Shimano remover splines around the axle in the photo. Depending on whether it is a 7sp or 8sp freewheel and exactly what tool you use, you might have problems getting full engagement of the splines.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tools/shimano-tlfw30-multiple-freewheel-remover/
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2021, 12:25:14 pm »
Thanks folks. Yes, you can get to the splines (sorry, not the most clear pic). Have got a Shimano lockring tool which is close, but not enough for me to want to try and force it. I may have to take it to LBS instead when there’s some of the more ‘senior’ staff in. Picked it up in the cheap and looking to punt it back to EBay or something most likely anyway.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2021, 12:29:25 pm »
A lockring tool does not have long enough splines for the necessary force. Don’t do it.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2021, 01:30:06 pm »
A lockring tool does not have long enough splines for the necessary force. Don’t do it.

A lockring tool doesn't have the right size and pattern of splines. IT WON'T FIT!!!!!

You require a Shimano freewheel tool which will fit correctly, go over the spindle (not cones, this hub doesn't have them, it has sealed bearings) and inside the sprocket. I have not yet found a freewheel tool that will not work.

Why do you need to access the bearings? They go on for ever (40+ years in a couple of my hubs). There's nothing to grease when you get them out, all you do is replace bearings with like. You say 3G hub but it looks just like one of the myriad of 50x series Mavic hubs (I have 500 and 501 which are the most common but there are a load of others). The only way to get that bearing retainer off is with the correct tool (as far as I know; I haven't yet found someone with a reliable alternative plan). The correct tool comes up occasionally on e-bay. The last one I saw was a couple of years ago and was offered at IIRC £90 (and they probably got that for it). Other than finding a friendly old school bike shop with one your best chance is looking for rocking-horse droppings!

Incidentally you can fit Maillard Corse sprockets to the first four or five positions on that freewheel, they're splined. The threaded sprockets differ a bit (particularly on 8sp I think).

Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2021, 03:10:18 pm »
Thanks, I’d guess is going to share bits with similar Mavic hubs of the same era. Bearings unfortunately well gone as axle will only turn back and forth for about 1/3 of the range

Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2021, 03:34:50 pm »
I forgot to say that on the 500 series hubs the bearing retainer that you can see is only on the non-freewheel side. The side behind the freewheel is plain. The front hubs of that type however have a bearing retainer both sides. They are a very solid hub but the Sachs sealed bearing hubs  (Neos or New Success, I have one in the garage but can't remember what it is) are much easier to work on!

A mate of mine who is fairly sensible tried to undo the retainer with a hammer and punch, but gave up almost straight away because the punch would gouge the holes but not mover the retainer. The wheel wasn't rusty like yours!

Only moving 1/3 turn sounds a bit like the axle might be bent! Given the probable age it might well be the same as a 501 (I think they were the last of the freewheel hubs and pretty commonin bike jumbles. I don't think you can shift the axle without undoing the retainer - but I might be wrong!

Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2021, 04:11:31 pm »
Ah, that is illuminating. I was presuming would be both sides, and was wanting to shift the freewheel to get at it, so might just try from non-drive-side first then.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2021, 04:18:47 pm »
There are two Shimano tools.  They look identical but aren't - the diameter is fractionally different. The UG one does Ultraglide cassettes and freewheels.  The HG one does Hyperglide cassettes, the normal ones with a separate lockring.

Many aftermarket "cassette tools" are sufficiently cunningly (or badly) made that they are in between sizes and will do both jobs.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2021, 09:21:31 pm »
There are two Shimano tools.  They look identical but aren't - the diameter is fractionally different. The UG one does Ultraglide cassettes and freewheels.  The HG one does Hyperglide cassettes, the normal ones with a separate lockring.

Many aftermarket "cassette tools" are sufficiently cunningly (or badly) made that they are in between sizes and will do both jobs.

Nice to know that I have never had affair with a badly made cassette tool!
Not having had an Ultraglide cassette I have only bought and used the tool as a specifically freewheel  one (and marked as such) although I suppose that Shimano possibly standardised the spline pattern for the earlier stuff between UG and freewheels and made life "improved" or just dificult when they brought out HG.

Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2021, 07:37:01 am »
I got cheap 5-speed freewheels off for years with one of my HG tools (one genuine Shimano, one not), and only needed to buy a UG tool a few years ago, when a genuine Shimano freewheel wouldn't take the HG tool at all.  So it may be a combination of tolerances on freewheel and tool that makes it work sometimes.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2021, 12:05:58 pm »
Anyway the Sachs ARIS freewheels need a Shimano (compatible) freewheel remover not a cassette tool.

I have been out to the garage and photographed both sides of a 501 rear hub. To complete the story I have also photographed one of my earlier hubs (just to prove myself wrong; there are bearing retainers - washers in Mavicspeak on that very useful PDF - on both sides in the earlier hub! :facepalm: ). To avoid confusion I will just put up the 501 rear hub now (I also have the front!)



Looking at the hub and the pdf it looks as if it ought to be possible to extract the axle and the freewheelside bearing just by unscrewing the "brake nut" that you can see on the non-freewheelside and tapping through. I have not done this, I don't know that it's doable but it looks like it should be. You're still stuck on the other side with the bearing retainer to be unscrewed but it may give a clue about the state of the hub.
I am still surprised that the bearings should seize, it's unusual on one of these hubs, they usually last for ever and a day!

Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2021, 08:44:53 pm »
There are two Shimano tools.  They look identical but aren't - the diameter is fractionally different. The UG one does Ultraglide cassettes and freewheels.  The HG one does Hyperglide cassettes, the normal ones with a separate lockring.

Many aftermarket "cassette tools" are sufficiently cunningly (or badly) made that they are in between sizes and will do both jobs.
HG splines are 1 mm high, UG splines are 0.5 mm high.
You can use a UG freewheel remover on a HG lockring, provided it's not on too tight, but not a HG lockring tool on a UG freewheel.

The UG tool is called UG because it was originally for Ultraglide freewheels (with twisted tooth tips). Ultraglide cassettes have a screw-on top gear sprocket that needs a pair of chainwhips, with a matching thread on the outside of the freehub body.

Re: 80’s/90’s wheel tech query
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2021, 01:36:48 pm »
Thanks for the help folks. Bearings needed freeing-up a bit, but turn okay. Discovered however that the aluminium core that the different inserts for rear/front/track can be slotted into has become slightly unbonded from the carbon of the wheel as turns when put a good bit of pressure on it.