Should we be re-thinking this e-Bike thing?

[Ham]

I'm very aware that this might be dodgy territory and some people are likely to have a knee jerk Paisley NO!!! moment, but still.

There's an awful lot of eBikes around this area, there's little doubt that many are illegal (as are 100% of the scooters), there seems an uncertain division between eBikes, moped and motorcycles, and there seems little doubt that the risk factors around these ratchet up immensely.

So, how about registration/number plates for eBikes? Based around and linked with an RFID or similar embedded in the motor?

[Edd]

What for?
If the police wanted to stop someone on an e-bike because they suspected it was illegal, they can. The very illegal ones are pretty obvious and the borderline ones probably don't matter

[rafletcher]

What for?
If the police wanted to stop someone on an e-bike because they suspected it was illegal, they can. The very illegal ones are pretty obvious and the borderline ones probably don't matter

Because a plate can be tracked by ANPR thus obviating a chase?  De-restricted e-bikes are a bloody menace.

[Ham]

The "what for" would be to reflect the responsibility of handling a motorised machinery amongst people, and to have some means of traceability. It's either that or abolish registration for mopeds etc, there seems to be little practical difference.

[The Family Cyclist]

My feelings are it's would have zero positive effect really and probably a lot of negative

Round my town there's a lot of technically illegal e scooters being ridden perfectly safely by sensible folk. If they had to have a plate they'd probably resort to whatever they did before e scooters which may well be drive

There's so seriously quick ones as well ridden by hoodlums, I'm talking 30+mph and normally ridden with hood up or sometimes a balaclava. These people wouldn't have plates unless it's like the I think now maimed person who had chase me as a plate  on a illegal motorbike.They know it would need huge resources to pursue them as can go places a car can't

The same would apply to bikes, would stop sensible folk who are currently riding legal bikes and have no effect on idiots on illegal ones

[Ham]

What for?
If the police wanted to stop someone on an e-bike because they suspected it was illegal, they can. The very illegal ones are pretty obvious and the borderline ones probably don't matter

Because a plate can be tracked by ANPR thus obviating a chase?  De-restricted e-bikes are a bloody menace.

^^^ that. It is the sheer volume around here that got me thinking this way.

[Ham]

My feelings are it's would have zero positive effect really and probably a lot of negative

Round my town there's a lot of technically illegal e scooters being ridden perfectly safely by sensible folk. If they had to have a plate they'd probably resort to whatever they did before e scooters which may well be drive

There's so seriously quick ones as well ridden by hoodlums, I'm talking 30+mph and normally ridden with hood up or sometimes a balaclava. These people wouldn't have plates unless it's like the I think now maimed person who had chase me as a plate  on a illegal motorbike.They know it would need huge resources to pursue them as can go places a car can't

The same would apply to bikes, would stop sensible folk who are currently riding legal bikes and have no effect on idiots on illegal ones

I'm not sure using yesterday's technology of a plate would be the right thing, although clearly in the short term it might. There's a serious issue with the current "technology" - the plate - and the ease it can be bypassed. This seems to be a problem that NFT/blockchain might well be able to solve at relatively low cost, at least having an identifier that links you to the item, I'm less certain about the reading aspect. In my mind, bringing it in for eBikes and extending to cars would avoid the squealing of war on the motorist, while upgrading the enforcement across the board.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Who's going to embed the RFID in the motor of a grey import or home conversion? Those are the ones most closely resembling motorbikes (in speed and lack of pedalling).

[Jaded]

How close to an RFID do you have to get?

[Ham]

Who's going to embed the RFID in the motor of a grey import or home conversion? Those are the ones most closely resembling motorbikes (in speed and lack of pedalling).

Whoever. It's validity is contained on the open ledger of the Blockchain.

We absolutely have the technology to firmly link <a thing> to <an ID> and a person. Buy a chip, or a motor with it built in, or have it immediately ceased (ETA, wishful thinking clearly. siezed) and crushed. Same could/should happen with cars. It's actually quite exciting to consider.

[Ham]

How close to an RFID do you have to get?

That's where I'm not clear about the reading technology, but actually toll gates handle remote ID at speed so it should be possible.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Who's going to embed the RFID in the motor of a grey import or home conversion? Those are the ones most closely resembling motorbikes (in speed and lack of pedalling).

Whoever. It's validity is contained on the open ledger of the Blockchain.

We absolutely have the technology to firmly link <a thing> to <an ID> and a person. Buy a chip, or a motor with it built in, or have it immediately ceased (ETA, wishful thinking clearly. siezed) and crushed. Same could/should happen with cars. It's actually quite exciting to consider.

But who will know if you don't have one?

[Ham]

Who's going to embed the RFID in the motor of a grey import or home conversion? Those are the ones most closely resembling motorbikes (in speed and lack of pedalling).

Whoever. It's validity is contained on the open ledger of the Blockchain.

We absolutely have the technology to firmly link <a thing> to <an ID> and a person. Buy a chip, or a motor with it built in, or have it immediately ceased (ETA, wishful thinking clearly. siezed) and crushed. Same could/should happen with cars. It's actually quite exciting to consider.

But who will know if you don't have one?

Teh Enforcerz.

The application to the complete motorised environment makes it viable.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Who's going to embed the RFID in the motor of a grey import or home conversion? Those are the ones most closely resembling motorbikes (in speed and lack of pedalling).

Whoever. It's validity is contained on the open ledger of the Blockchain.

We absolutely have the technology to firmly link <a thing> to <an ID> and a person. Buy a chip, or a motor with it built in, or have it immediately ceased (ETA, wishful thinking clearly. siezed) and crushed. Same could/should happen with cars. It's actually quite exciting to consider.

But who will know if you don't have one?

Teh Enforcerz.

The application to the complete motorised environment makes it viable.

That's where it falls down IMO. Because there hardly are any, especially out of London. And are they to stop every e-scooter and e-bike they see just on the off chance? Or only those obviously doing more than 15mph (in which case, we're back to policing)?

[Jaded]

How close to an RFID do you have to get?

That's where I'm not clear about the reading technology, but actually toll gates handle remote ID at speed so it should be possible.

Ah, yes. True, but don’t the responders have batteries?

[Ham]

How close to an RFID do you have to get?

That's where I'm not clear about the reading technology, but actually toll gates handle remote ID at speed so it should be possible.

Ah, yes. True, but don’t the responders have batteries?

Conveniently, eBikes can be depended on to have batteries

[Ham]

That's where it falls down IMO. Because there hardly are any, especially out of London. And are they to stop every e-scooter and e-bike they see just on the off chance? Or only those obviously doing more than 15mph (in which case, we're back to policing)?

I actually think a relatively small amount of enforcement would have a disproportionate effect, especially with the majority of people who are relatively compliant and currently likely don't understand the law. Those that break the law will likely always do so, it will be more difficult for cars which is right and proper.

ETA, this is also where the visible number plate has some value, too, as a visible indicator but that has all the current failings and could easily be overridden with fakes. But again, another layer of illegality.

[Karla]

I'm getting pretty hacked off with them in this part of London.

Couldn't we stop importing these things?  Ban the ones with the powerful motors and then there'll be nothing to derestrict.  Perhaps that's something for HMRC and Border Force to do instead of sending people to Rwanda?

It seems someone's doing it
And someone else too

[Jaded]

How close to an RFID do you have to get?

That's where I'm not clear about the reading technology, but actually toll gates handle remote ID at speed so it should be possible.

Ah, yes. True, but don’t the responders have batteries?

Conveniently, eBikes can be depended on to have batteries

So, hardwired to the propulsion battery…

[Edd]

This has just happened, if it was enforced more strongly...

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/mate-bike-prosecuted-for-its-750w-20mph-e-bikes-and-told-to-issue-recall-4005
(ebike manufacturer who sold ebikes over the limit fined and told to issue recall)

Need similar legislation of scooters and the police to enforce illegal bikes/scooters. It's obvious the ebikes that are working without pedal assistance

[The_Mikey]

I'm getting pretty hacked off with them in this part of London.

Couldn't we stop importing these things?  Ban the ones with the powerful motors and then there'll be nothing to derestrict.  Perhaps that's something for HMRC and Border Force to do instead of sending people to Rwanda?

It's probably near impossible to ban on that basis,  who's to say if a motor and some nondescript electronics is an e-bike motor,  or a motor for a garage door or an industrial motor,  after all it's not the motor that is illegal, it's what it ends up being used for that could be illegal, but also , it might not be illegal in some circumstances.

[Ham]

I'm getting pretty hacked off with them in this part of London.

Couldn't we stop importing these things?  Ban the ones with the powerful motors and then there'll be nothing to derestrict.  Perhaps that's something for HMRC and Border Force to do instead of sending people to Rwanda?

It seems someone's doing it
And someone else too

I didn't think you were this part of London? As it happens that first link is very much my part of town,  which at least suggests I'm not just being a miserable curmudgeon and inventing a problem that doesn't exist.

[T42]

How close to an RFID do you have to get?

That's where I'm not clear about the reading technology, but actually toll gates handle remote ID at speed so it should be possible.

Ah, yes. True, but don’t the responders have batteries?

No. You can get active and passive RFIDs: active do, passive don't.  I don't know how effective a passive-RFID reader would be in the tag were implanted or glued onto a hub motor whirling at 20 mph, though.  Of course, you could require that the tags be inserted in the controllers or consoles.

[Polar Bear]

Does anybody really think that folk riding "illegal" ebikes or escooters for that matter are going to bother to register them?  At best they are simply going to clone a legit one with fake markers of whatever kind gets legislated for.  At worst they are just going to ignore the law just like so many drivers using their mobile phones do.

The law already defines what is illegal but it is not enforced.  Licencing will not change this.

[MikeFromLFE]

I've got a legal e-moped 28mph, insurance and zero rated VED. I have been under/overtaken by e-Scooters and e-bikes.
There is zero enforcement around here (Leicestershire) and as far as I can tell no appetite for enforcement of existing laws.

The genie is well and truly out as regards currently illegal e-machines and I can't realistically see how to stuff the genie back into its bag given the number of these machines around.

The biggest issue is surely enforcement of either existing or new laws. There simply is no slack in either policing or trading standards to do so. We can all see how motor vehicles are light-touch policed, so why bother - say the enforcers - with e-machines?

I'm very much conflicted by all of this.
I am a "rule taker" by instinct, so to see the bad lads breaking the rules grinds my gears. But every person on a tiny wheeled thing is potentially one less person in a car.

The current situation is ridiculous. The only way I see forward - if the current rules are to be retained - is through import and point of sale enforcement (see note above about trading standards) and a few high profile, high value fines.
But it won't happen.

To redefine the e-machines to create new road legal categories is such a huge body of work (to capture emerging tech) that ain't gonna happen either.

The best I hope for is to get e-Scooters off the pavements - both moving and parked. And, maybe that's all that is needed.