Should we be re-thinking this e-Bike thing?

[Cudzoziemiec]

Going back to the beginning and re-reading:

I'm very aware that this might be dodgy territory and some people are likely to have a knee jerk Paisley NO!!! moment, but still.

There's an awful lot of eBikes around this area, there's little doubt that many are illegal (as are 100% of the scooters), there seems an uncertain division between eBikes, moped and motorcycles, and there seems little doubt that the risk factors around these ratchet up immensely.

So, how about registration/number plates for eBikes? Based around and linked with an RFID or similar embedded in the motor?

I think we need a bit more idea of the purpose. What is registration, whether by RFID, plates or both, intended to achieve? Is it to track misdemeanours of the riders, dodgy conversions, non-compliant manufactures... ?

[citoyen]

De-restricted e-bikes are a bloody menace.

Are there any hard stats to show how much of a menace they are?

Does anybody really think that folk riding "illegal" ebikes or escooters for that matter are going to bother to register them?

Given how many uninsured drivers there are on the road.... erm... that's a really tricky one, I don't think.

[Jaded]

Also, are they just being used for drug deals and knife cramming, are they taking people off buses, or are they providing private transport that isn't cars?

[Karla]

I'm getting pretty hacked off with them in this part of London.

Couldn't we stop importing these things?  Ban the ones with the powerful motors and then there'll be nothing to derestrict.  Perhaps that's something for HMRC and Border Force to do instead of sending people to Rwanda?

It seems someone's doing it
And someone else too

I didn't think you were this part of London? As it happens that first link is very much my part of town,  which at least suggests I'm not just being a miserable curmudgeon and inventing a problem that doesn't exist.

I'm sarf of the river, that was just the first promising link I found about the rozzers seizing these things.

[citoyen]

Ban the ones with the powerful motors and then there'll be nothing to derestrict.

Aren't they already illegal?

[Karla]

Yes, but the rule is widely flouted and they're extremely common in London, going way over 15 mph.  It seems they're being imported "for off-road use". 

In one of my links, a judge didn't believe that and ordered a recall of one model.  In another, Newham rounded up a bunch of off-road bikes which were very much being used on the road.

[citoyen]

Yes, but the rule is widely flouted and they're extremely common in London, going way over 15 mph.

If they're already illegal, what exactly are you proposing to ban?

[Karla]

Yes, but the rule is widely flouted and they're extremely common in London, going way over 15 mph.

If they're already illegal, what exactly are you proposing to ban?

Okay, sloppy wording: enforce. Like I said in my first post, we need to stop believing the off-road excuse and stop the bikes coming in and being sold. 

It'll require some careful wording to avoid banning electric motorbikes, but I'm sure our draftsmen are up to that. 

[Ham]

Going back to the beginning and re-reading:

I'm very aware that this might be dodgy territory and some people are likely to have a knee jerk Paisley NO!!! moment, but still.

There's an awful lot of eBikes around this area, there's little doubt that many are illegal (as are 100% of the scooters), there seems an uncertain division between eBikes, moped and motorcycles, and there seems little doubt that the risk factors around these ratchet up immensely.

So, how about registration/number plates for eBikes? Based around and linked with an RFID or similar embedded in the motor?

I think we need a bit more idea of the purpose. What is registration, whether by RFID, plates or both, intended to achieve? Is it to track misdemeanours of the riders, dodgy conversions, non-compliant manufactures... ?

I confess it's mostly a thought experiment, engendered by a close encounter of the frightening kind (involving a 4 year old and a pavement) resulting in a reaction not too dissimilar from the FLOG ALL CYCLISTS!! Brigade. I was musing to myself that actually, with the proliferation of these bikes, their arguments have some weight: the riders should be able to be held to account for damage and misdeeds. The cost of eBikes and their place in the transport panoply means the cost of some registration scheme should not be a significant proportion of the value, and the admin would not stop access or be relevant for young entrants.

I'd say with the current state of technology, plates and RFID would be needed, my hope would be similar tracking could be built into eCars, sold as an anti theft measure but capable of being used for enforcement, that would be the catalyst to a place that currently is prevented by the "WAR ONTHE MOTORIST" banner, although it is only rule enforcement that we're talking about.

[Pingu]

Betteridge's law of headlines applies.

[citoyen]

Okay, sloppy wording: enforce.

Fair enough!

[Polar Bear]

De-restricted e-bikes are a bloody menace.

Are there any hard stats to show how much of a menace they are?

Does anybody really think that folk riding "illegal" ebikes or escooters for that matter are going to bother to register them?

Given how many uninsured drivers there are on the road.... erm... that's a really tricky one, I don't think.

Well, yes indeed.

So many drivers commit offences routinely every day and motor vehicles are significantly more dangerous than e-thingies.  This licensing thing is a regular wail from the likes of a few mad tories, the daily hate, the daily poo, the fascist graph and the likes of if not actually Hatey Katie and CBE Morgan. 

I was nearly caught unawares only this morning by a car being driven the wrong way down a one way street.  And only a couple of weeks back an ignorant arsehole in his bloaterwagon was being angry at pedestrians in a pedestrian zone even though he was entirely in the wrong for driving there.

Uninsured, untaxed, un-mot'd vehicles driven by unlicensed drivers and folk are hoodwinked to attacking those renegades on e-thingies and of course, cyclists

I get annoyed at being put at risk by these pavement loonies but I feel far more threatened by the loons who just drive along pavements or speed up and ram their hand down on the horn when somebody is crossing the road.  And yes, I see this sort of behaviour every week in Rugby.

[Kim]

How close to an RFID do you have to get?

That's where I'm not clear about the reading technology, but actually toll gates handle remote ID at speed so it should be possible.

Ah, I know this:

The RFID system we use for timing BHPC races has a day job tracking boxes in warehouses and vehicles through ports and similar.  Effective range is about 15 metres from a high-power antenna, and it will happily read at speeds in the 35mph Steve Slade going full pelt range.  Higher speeds would eventually limit the number of tags that could be simultaneously read, but would reduce the vehicle throughput to the point where that isn't a problem.

The problem that we have with HPV races is that the tag needs to be fixed to to a non-conductive surface.  If you stick them to metal or carbon fibre, it simply doesn't work, and the signal can't pass through metal or carbon fibre either.  You'd need a plastic part a good 20mm from any metal, which would be impractical on an ebike motor, or most cycle frames.  (We mostly stick them to cycle helmets, card/plastic number boards, glass fibre fairings and plastic windscreens, with the read aerials mounted horizontally at the side of the track.  For tracking cars they tend to be stuck to the windscreen or dangled from the rear-view mirror, and the aerials mounted overhead.)

And of course they could trivially be defeated by a bit of foil.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Going back to the beginning and re-reading:

I'm very aware that this might be dodgy territory and some people are likely to have a knee jerk Paisley NO!!! moment, but still.

There's an awful lot of eBikes around this area, there's little doubt that many are illegal (as are 100% of the scooters), there seems an uncertain division between eBikes, moped and motorcycles, and there seems little doubt that the risk factors around these ratchet up immensely.

So, how about registration/number plates for eBikes? Based around and linked with an RFID or similar embedded in the motor?

I think we need a bit more idea of the purpose. What is registration, whether by RFID, plates or both, intended to achieve? Is it to track misdemeanours of the riders, dodgy conversions, non-compliant manufactures... ?

I confess it's mostly a thought experiment, engendered by a close encounter of the frightening kind (involving a 4 year old and a pavement) resulting in a reaction not too dissimilar from the FLOG ALL CYCLISTS!! Brigade. I was musing to myself that actually, with the proliferation of these bikes, their arguments have some weight: the riders should be able to be held to account for damage and misdeeds. The cost of eBikes and their place in the transport panoply means the cost of some registration scheme should not be a significant proportion of the value, and the admin would not stop access or be relevant for young entrants.

I'd say with the current state of technology, plates and RFID would be needed, my hope would be similar tracking could be built into eCars, sold as an anti theft measure but capable of being used for enforcement, that would be the catalyst to a place that currently is prevented by the "WAR ONTHE MOTORIST" banner, although it is only rule enforcement that we're talking about.

I should think we've all had similar experiences and reactions, even if not with 4 year olds. This doesn't really mesh with your earlier statement that most riders of illegal e-bikes aren't aware they're illegal and just need greater information, cos someone buzzing past small kids on a pavement knows what they're doing (which is probably one or both of: being an arse, and 'rooing or similar zero hours trying-to-make-a-living).

Ultimately, I'd ask why are they on the pavement at all? It's probably because the road is full of cars, which are bigger, faster, and hurtier than they are. So would they still use the pavement if they were trackable? Quite likely, unless we reverse 30-odd years of neglect in policing – or make the roads usable.

[Kim]

I think there's scope for something like the European S-Pedelec classification (45kph, legal status similar to a moped, with some countries requiring number plates etc), which would surely appeal to the commuters and deliverooists.

The problem is that some people would still ride on the pavement, because of oppressive motor traffic and cycle infra that's unfit for 25kph, let alone 45.

[Ham]

Whatever prompted this, the pavement riding thing is a side show. I'm as vehemently anti control and regulation for bikes as anyone, but when does a bike stop being a bike? And then, should it be regulated? As Kim highlights, other countries seemed to be doing it better than us, although having not travelled over the last years I'm not certain, they certainly appeared to cope with segway better than we did.

I was contemplating that we should be establishing a clear division between powered an unpowered transport, to allow unpowered to remain as independent as ever whilst inviting control over powered.

[mzjo]

Motor vehicles used on thé public roads need type approval, registration documents and plates and insurance. For thé moment pedal cycles and electric assist bikes below a certain power don't come under thèse rules. Please correct me if this is no longer thé case. Where I live riding on thé pavement is not allowed if you're over 8yrs old. Lack of enforcement is a matter of priority and manpower, not law!
We could all be affected by all of this, firstly by a move towards bike registration (thé first moves are already there hère in France) and by thé implications for bicycle and motor-cycle insurance (depending how thé authorities classify any accidents).
FWIW thé FFCT had great difficulty renegotiating thé Fédéral insurance (which is a légal requirement for all membres and clubs) this year due to thé claims record. UFOLEP will undoubtedly find themselves in thé dame situation. Thé last thing we néed is thé additional complication of potential claims in thé systèm from unlicensed and uninsured two-wheelers.
How thèse vehicles will be integrated into thé system I really don't know but somewhere àlong the way someone will have to bring law and order to thé Wild West!

[Kim]

And on the gripping hand, maybe we should do something about illegal cars before we worry about e-bikes, which they vastly outnumber.  A quick google suggests there are an estimated 55,000 uninsured motor vehicles in Birmingham.  I for one would be a lot happier if they were riding unregulated ebikes/scooters.

[citoyen]

I was contemplating that we should be establishing a clear division between powered an unpowered transport, to allow unpowered to remain as independent as ever whilst inviting control over powered.

We already do. As we’ve established upthread, the problem is not the law but the enforcement. Licensing or ID requirements won’t change that.

It’s not an entirely new problem - old dears have long been haring around on the pavement on mobility scooters that do more than 4mph. But yes, illegal e-contraptions are becoming more ubiquitous.

I still go back to my original question though: is there any hard evidence to show how much of a genuine menace these things are? Or are we firmly in the realm of anecdata here?

[Cudzoziemiec]

I was contemplating that we should be establishing a clear division between powered an unpowered transport, to allow unpowered to remain as independent as ever whilst inviting control over powered.

I'm kind of "philosophically" in agreement with you. It was inevitable that as soon as we introduced e-bikes, they would tend towards e-mopeds. But that would happen regardless of regulation and with or without any registration schemes. In practice, the existence of e-bikes (and e-scooters) has blurred the line between powered and unpowered transport, making it very difficult to draw a line that's in the right place. (Dog-joring does the same, as does horse riding, but those are uncommon enough in traffic that they can be ignored.)

Ed: And mobility scooters, as Citoyen points out, are definitely powered but treated pretty much as unpowered (as are electric wheelchairs, ride-on mowers and various other machines which move).

[Kim]

I still go back to my original question though: is there any hard evidence to show how much of a genuine menace these things are? Or are we firmly in the realm of anecdata here?

The RNIB did some research on scooters, I think.  But a lot of their members would happily ban bicycles if given the chance.  The problem with visual impairment is that you're literally only aware of the law-breaking users.

[Kim]

Ed: And mobility scooters, as Citoyen points out, are definitely powered but treated pretty much as unpowered (as are electric wheelchairs, ride-on mowers and various other machines which move).

No they're not.  There are three classes of Invalid Carriages:

Class 1 is a manual wheelchair, handcycle, disability-adapted pedal cycle or similar, and when used by a disabled person has the same rights as a pedestrian.

Class 2 is restricted to 4mph, for use on footways.

Class 3 is road-going, restricted to 8mph, and is required to have lights and (I think) some sort of token registration document.  These will have a switch to restrict to 4mph for use on footways.  As the law stands, these are forbidden from using cycle infrastructure, which is ridiculous.

There's no accommodation for mobility aids with higher speed limits.  A 25kph electric-assist handcycle, for example, is an e-trike in law (and therefore cannot be ridden on the pavement by a disabled person).  There's also no allowance for e-assist cycles to be operated by hand throttles for people who can't reliably pedal, other than those grandfathered under the older UK EAPC regulations.


Mowers etc are a special class of motor vehicle, I think.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Ed: And mobility scooters, as Citoyen points out, are definitely powered but treated pretty much as unpowered (as are electric wheelchairs, ride-on mowers and various other machines which move).

No they're not.  There are three classes of Invalid Carriages:

Class 1 is a manual wheelchair, handcycle, disability-adapted pedal cycle or similar, and when used by a disabled person has the same rights as a pedestrian.

Class 2 is restricted to 4mph, for use on footways.

Class 3 is restricted to 8mph, and is required to have lights and (I think) some sort of token registration document.  These will have a switch to restrict to 4mph for use on footways.  As the law stands, these are forbidden from using cycle infrastructure, which is ridiculous.


Mowers etc are a special class of motor vehicle.

How should I word this? Thought of, maybe? I'm aware there are different classes of "mobility scooter" and that mowers (there used to be, not sure if there still is, a "pedestrian controlled vehicle" category that you got automatically with a car licence – maybe a motorcycle licence too, can't remember) are separate categories – but in the public mind they are considered as akin to bicycles or pushchairs or shopping trolleys. People don't flinch when passed by a powered wheelchair on the pavement (on the rare occasions it will fit on the pavement in the gap left by paveparkers). Nor are there outcries for mobility scooter registration, etc.

[Sergeant Pluck]

And on the gripping hand, maybe we should do something about illegal cars before we worry about e-bikes, which they vastly outnumber.  A quick google suggests there are an estimated 55,000 uninsured motor vehicles in Birmingham.  I for one would be a lot happier if they were riding unregulated ebikes/scooters.

 

And London is even worse.

[Ham]

And on the gripping hand, maybe we should do something about illegal cars before we worry about e-bikes, which they vastly outnumber.  A quick google suggests there are an estimated 55,000 uninsured motor vehicles in Birmingham.  I for one would be a lot happier if they were riding unregulated ebikes/scooters.

Not sure I agree that it has to be "before", although I agree that should be the priority.

The exciting (FCVO) aspect of this concept is that it extends naturally to cars: somewhere in my rambling I highlighted the failings of a number plate system. In combo with a NFT, it suddenly has power.